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A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards

This thought exercise is as much for my own personal prejudices as it is for your consumption.


Drew Gooden overtook Shareef Abdur-Rahim as the best per-minute scorer of the bunch this season. Gooden has been the best rebounder of the group for three seasons. Gooden is statistically the best all-around player, and his peak several years ago is slightly lower than Shareef's early 20s peak.

The numbers hidden in the above survey:

Shareef turns 31 on December 11.
Kenny turns 30 on July 25.

Gooden turns 26 on September 24.

Everything we know about aging in basketball says the performance of Shareef and Kenny will decline, all other things being equal. Gooden may still improve, Gooden may decline... but we are fairly certain Shareef and Kenny will decline.

Judging by the numbers, Gooden is a good bet to perform better than both Shareef and Kenny over the next two years. (Gooden's contract runs two more years; both Shareef and Kenny's contracts run for three more years.)

Of course, this trade isn't Drew Gooden for Kenny Thomas or Drew Gooden for Shareef Abdur-Rahim. The answer in either one would be incredibly obvious. The question is this: Is the upgrade for two seasons worth giving up Mike Bibby's production?

This is where a whole host of other factors comes in. What's the other piece Sacramento will get back? Who plays point guard? What will be the total cap dollars savings of the move? How many minutes will Justin Williams have taken away? Will you be able to move either Kenny or Shareef? How does this affect the 2009 timeline? We can't even begin talking about those factors. All we can rationally measure right now is what we've done above -- how much better will Gooden be than Shareef and Kenny? Even that analysis relies on a whole lot more than what we've looked at -- there's no telling what kind of rebound numbers Gooden will get on this statistically odd team, or whether he's usage rate adjustment will affect his shooting percentages and scoring production.

It's clear Gooden is an upgrade. At this point, I don't think the upgrade is large enough to ship out Bibby. In my opinion, there needs to be a serious asset in addition to Drew coming back.

I have a feeling we'll know soon.

0 recs | Comment 19 comments

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Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
If we get him, can we trade the hair patch away?

by Chris The Greek on Jul 13, 2007 1:33 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
i don't think i agree with your evaluation that we shouldn't trade bibby for him.  the kings certainly won't win with bibby this year.  good will provide some athleticism down low.  and his contract is up after the 08-09 season.  and if he decides to develop into a real nice player, maybe we then keep him.  but it is clear that bibby wants to be somewhere else.  and you can never have enough decent forwards.  those are easier to trade for quality in return than guards.

by Cynema the Band on Jul 13, 2007 2:02 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Might agree that forwards have more value than shooting guards.  I am not certain, however, that it holds for good point guards.

by Kusian on Jul 13, 2007 3:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
like i once said, if i told you shareef was younger than kevin garnett would you believe me?
Whether your dominating the playground, the last one to leave the gym, or your big time like Mike Bibby...

by CrownUs93 on Jul 13, 2007 2:41 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
they are two different type of power forwards.  reef was always more of a back to the basket with moves type of player, and a decent jump shot.  garnett was always quicker with the dribble and a better jump.  

also on defense garnett is a shot blocker, whereas, shareef was more physical.  so to your point that reef as actually younger than garnett, makes no difference with the way they play.

by Cynema the Band on Jul 13, 2007 4:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
I agree that Gooden alone isn't enough to give up Bibby.  My feeling is that we can get more for him if we hang on to him until midseason.  I like Gooden, and he's an unquestionable upgrade over Thomas and Reef, but it creates more problems than it fixes.
Freakin' Kings.

by DB on Jul 13, 2007 3:13 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Good stuff, TZ.  It shouldn't be Gooden and junk for Bibby.  There should either be ending contracts or young guys attached to the deal.

If the Kings are going to dump someone just for the sake of dumping him, they really ought to look at Mr. Arrest.

by Carl on Jul 13, 2007 3:27 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Is there a chance the Kings can work this as a three-way with Cleveland and Milwaukee to get Yi out of the Bucks? The main issue with those Yi-to-Sac rumors from earlier this week is that the Kings don't have the pieces to get it done. Does Cleveland? Does Yi even make more sense than Gooden?

by Jeff Reguilon on Jul 13, 2007 3:43 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Hollinger says, and I tend to agree, that NBA players hit their statistical ceiling around their mid-20s (on average, and over a very large sample space).

What you see is what you get with Gooden: he's a good, but certainly not great, PF who is probably not going to get a lot better.  Bibby had a rotten year, but he's the better player, all in all.  

Ergo, if you swap Bibby for Gooden, you're heading backwards in the wins department.  It might be worth it if Petrie can significantly cut salaries and/or acquire prospects, but the straight-up swap makes little sense.  PG is the harder position to fill, and is ultimately more important to the team's success, as well.

by SJP on Jul 13, 2007 3:52 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
backwards in the win department?  what is the difference between low 30s wins and high 20s wins?  does bibby alone account for more than 5 wins a year?  yes bibby is a nice player, but he is older and slower than he ever has been.  if gooden stays the same i could except that is the pieces around him contain 1 or 2 studs.  that will translate into more wins.  plus if martin continues to improve, then you have an average to better than average shooting guard with garcia/artest/salmons at the 2 and 3 spots.  that is not too bad.  the team is trying to figure its pieces right now.  they don't have that clear cut #1/all-star type guy, but in reality, there aren't many teams that do.

by Cynema the Band on Jul 13, 2007 4:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
I agree that there's no real difference between 28 and 33 wins, other than a higher draft pick.  But going into the season without a decent PG is fighting a land war in Asia.  It's simply a recipe for disaster--like 8-10 losses worth of ugliness.  Petrie won't do it without somebody at least passable waiting in the wings at PG.  Price?  No way.  Douby?  Not yet.  Garcia?  Mmmm...as good as he is defensively, he'd have a rough time staying in front of rival PGs consistently; plus, the dude throws the ball the way too often.  Daniel Gibson could get it done, maybe, but will the Cavs cough him up as well?  Dubious.

by SJP on Jul 13, 2007 4:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
If Garcia's only problem at the point is guarding the other team's PG, then we wouldn't really be downgrading from MB.

Personally, I'd be more worried about his role in Theus' offense - will our point guard be expected to create and dish? Or is he more of a Bibby type, expected to spot up and shoot threes?

If he just needs to come down the court and feed the post to initiate the offense, Garcia will probably be fine.

by otis29 on Jul 13, 2007 5:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
It doesn't seem likely that we will be getting Gooden now that we have signed Mikki Moore.  what is Petrie going to do next?  Things may get interesting in the next few days.  At least I hope so.
trade em all

by kangsfan on Jul 13, 2007 8:59 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
I would prefer John Salmons starting at PG instead of Garcia, Salmons is smarter and a better playmaker|decision maker.When does Gooden's contract end? in like 1 or 2 seasons i think? so it's not like the team is going to be stuck with him forever, This team needs to move Bibby badly by the end of the offseason i had enough of him so if a Gooden & maybe Eric Snow or something for Mike Bibby trade goes down i would be very happy, This team needs to focus on moving Bibby before anybody outside of KT and Brad because they are most likely to hard to move.

by rimrock101 on Jul 13, 2007 9:12 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Are you kidding me! John Salmons isn't a good NBA small forward let alone a point guard.
We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on Jul 13, 2007 11:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
the kings just picked up mikki moore any thoughts
free special ed.

by Swissy14 on Jul 13, 2007 9:24 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
Signing Mikki More is pretty surprising but he could help this team with his athleticsism and defense but i thought this franchise was going on a youth movement probally offered a little bit too much but it could be worse.

by rimrock101 on Jul 13, 2007 9:29 PM PDT   0 recs

Re: A Survey of Non-Elite Power Forwards
No it couldn't be worse.
We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on Jul 13, 2007 11:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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