All Is Not Well

by Ziller on Jan 12, 2008 8:56 AM PST in Commentary Comment 29 comments

Well damn.

All that excitement about Kevin Martin's return? Well, all that wind just fled the balloon. It made that pfffffft sound. Jason Levien, Martin's agent, raised some concerns about Reggie Theus' statements last week about how Martin and Mike Bibby will have to earn their starting roles back with defense and effort. That led to Sam Amick talking with Bibby about the issue, which raised some more concerns. And it raised Reggie's ire.

We all chafed a bit, I think, when Reggie insisted his players could play if they could practice. If nothing else, it was a bit uncomfortable; there was some sense of disconnect. And it'd be hard not to sense frustration in Reggie's comments -- of course, he wants all his weapons back ASAP. In Reggie's day, as today's story indicates, you didn't really hang out wait for the doctor's note if you felt good. Today, you have to. There's too much money -- for the player, for the franchise -- at stake. A win over Memphis is less important than tearing a sprained groin or reaggravating a torn thumb ligament. As Levien notes, doctors know when it's safe to return much better than Reggie would.

The big hitch in all this seems to be a lack of communication between Theus and the two injured fellows. And Theus, as great a job as he's done this year, seems to be at fault here. Read this, from today's story, with emphases added:

"I didn't question Kevin or the medical staff," he said. "I don't do that. The only thing I started asking questions about is when (the medical staff) said he was cleared for full-blown practice. Then, to me, that means that he's a few days away. If a player is playing full speed at practice, he should play."

I think that qualifies as questioning Kevin or the medical staff. I'm assuming the docs have reasons why practice is OK versus a full-on game; namely, they/the player can control effort and time of action in practice, but cannot in a game setting where effort is "full" and playing time is asserted by Theus. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's no difference. In that case, should Reggie have asked the medical staff/the players privately or gone through the media? Well, here's how Reggie feels about going through the media.

"If (Levien) had a question, he should've called me," Theus said.

Theus should've had the same courtesy for both the doctors and Martin and Bibby. He did not. He was wrong.

Hopefully, there are no hard feelings and it's a lesson learned. Unfortunately, Reggie doesn't seem convinced he did anything wrong. Awesome.

0 recs | Comment 29 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Uhh...

My main complaint here is that Reggie's communicating things to the media before his players. However, it seems like pretty standard coach speak when Reggis says they have to earn their starting spots back. This is heard quite a bit.

Reggie definitely needs to keep his frustrations to himself though, just so it doesn't stir shit up. He is rightfully frustrated that his guys can practice hard but can't play. Is anyone else here a little tired of hearing "Martin practiced today" or "Bibby went hard at practice the other day" and wondering "well, why the fuck don't they play?"

It seems to me that Theus is saying a little too much, but that Martin's agent is stirring the pot a little. Bibby claims he hears this stuff from the media, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theus told him all this stuff before hand but Mike just sat there picking it his finger nails.

by vfettke on Jan 12, 2008 9:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I read the article in the Bee this morning

And to me, Bibby sounded like a guy who expects to be gone soon. He seemed pissed without trying to say straight up he was pissed. Maybe it's just me, but I read a lot of sarcasm into his words.

This is going to be a touchy time for Theus and the team. Does he have the capability to keep this group of players happy?

I still think Bibby needs to go, and pronto - maybe Ron-Ron too...this thing could get ugly as it stands.

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Bibby is the Black Larry David. Since Reef dubbed him that, I've laughed at many more of his sarcastic remarks.

by Ziller on Jan 12, 2008 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A little frustration goes a long way.

My question is, if Bibby and Martin, Martin in particular is healthy enough to practice multiple times shouldn't he have been able to win his starting job back in practice? I am also pissed that Theus is making a big deal out of this because he certainly didn't follow his own rule with Artest when he was suspended for the first seven games and Salmons played out of his mind. I found Theus' response to this question retarded and inconsistent.

Theus also allowed Kenny Thomas to continue to play when he obviously hadn't earned a single minute of play time with his performance. Justin Williams, when given the minutes has performed at an extremely high level but still can't get consistent minutes.

I really like the job that Theus has done so far but....Martin is your best player so making him pretend to win his starting job back is just dumb. I think that maybe Theus is using this as an excuse to keep Bibby from expecting his starting spot back also. Bibby has missed a ton of time and should understand that Beno has played well enough to garner some of his minutes. Theus should also respect that Mike is a veteran who is going to have to play big minutes to prove he is ready to be traded. I don't think playing time is really going to be up to Theus for the next month leading to the trade deadline. Theus and the Kings can placate Beno Udrih after Mike is traded and hope he comes back but we all know that Udrih decision is going to be based on money as much as playing time.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on Jan 12, 2008 9:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

One point

I agree with you on Martin. Dude needs to play better defense, sure, but he seems to play hard and he plays very efficiently. Martin doesn't seem to fit the "bench guy" mold very well - I think he should be starting upon his return.

However, my one (nit-picky) disagreement is on Artest. If a player's return to the starting lineup is predicated on playing defense and hustling, there was really no need to make Artest earn back his starting spot - there is no question that Ron-Ron brings that every night.

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2008 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

His intensity brought after a layoff

is really rare too. That may be another reason why Artest came off. Plus, and this is something easy to forget, it's not like Artest was hurt. He was practicing with the team the entire 7 games he was suspended.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 12, 2008 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

However...

Like I said, it seems pretty standard "coach speak" for him to say that they have to earn those spots. I really think its more of a remark regarding Bibby and his attitude. It can be easily assumed that Martin will work his ass off day in and day out. We know this and Theus knows this. That's why some of this is blown out of proportion. Theus is frustrated that Martin cant play. Don't ya think Martin is frustrated as well? It has to be more of a shot at Bibby, who, in my opinion, we have found a suitable replacement for in Beno.

by vfettke on Jan 12, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Reggie is the man!

Finally the Kings have a strong coach who's not going to be bullied by high dollar star players (or their agents). Remember Adelman and the way he caved to Webber and there by killed the Kings chances?

Good for Theus. He is saying all of the right things (even though some don't like it). He is attempting to build on what progress the team has made thus far and refuses to ignore the players like Salmons, Udrich and Garcia who have stepped up. These guys have showed that playing defense is half of the game. Bibby and Martin need to learn what it takes to stay on the floor now. Theus has simply raised the bar and we as Kings fans should be grateful. Adelman could not get defense from this group. Mussleman talked a big talk about bringing defense but never could. Theus is getting it done and he's not going to cave to the pressure from those that would stand in the way.

by KingsFan on Jan 12, 2008 10:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I agree somewhat

But it's a dangerous game he's playing with NBA players - we are talking about a rookie coach putting a heavy hammer on modern NBA players. That battle is won by the coach occasionally, but more often than not, the players will bond together in opposition to the coach. And if not, it creates unnecessary divisions in the locker room.

Reggie needs to learn to engage his brain before engaging his mouth in some instances. TZ hit it on the head - Reggie's communication skills with his players seems to be lacking a bit. I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt for now, since he's a rookie coach, but I'm a bit concerned as well - Reggie seems to be big on assigning blame to everyone but himself at this point. That is extremely dangerous for the long-term mental health of this team.

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But

The team's defense has not improved since Martin got injured.

If it's all about effort, why in the world would Theus question Martin's effort in returning? Everyone's said Martin has looked tremendous in practice and after the past three years how anyone could question Kevin's work ethic is beyond me.

Theus overplayed his hammer here. And he doesn't appear to realize it.

by Ziller on Jan 12, 2008 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

defense

Both Cisco and Salmons are much better defenders than Martin. Perhaps the "team" defense hasn't improved statistically, but it is certainly better at the 2 spot.

by Kusian on Jan 12, 2008 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But

If they're that much better, and none of the other parts have changed, does it matter?

I know each is a better man defender; Salmons has strength, Garcia might be a touch longer. But it hasn't translated into real results.

by Ziller on Jan 12, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

attitude

I think it comes down to attitude. Kevin doesn't have a killer mindset either offensively or defensively. Defensively he loses focus quite a bit. There is just no way somebody with his speed should get beat off the dribble as much as he does. And it's the same reason that despite awesome talent he's only the third best player on this team. I don't think he has reached anywhere near his physical potential. But I think he'll never reach it unless he is more focused mentally. He's the type of athlete that frustrates me.

by Kusian on Jan 12, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

your crazy.

Anyone who gets to the line 10+ times per game has a killer instinct. Martin is just getting used to being a star, once he has a full grasp of the media fame, he will get back to basics and play D. Who exactly are the 2 better players on this team?

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on Jan 13, 2008 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Best Kings Players

"Your crazy"--Did you mean, "you're crazy"? I believe Artest and Salmons are the two best players on the team. Getting to the foul line doesn't translate to having a killer instinct.

IMO, it only means he has a personal coach who has taught him that a player who is 6' 7", who can take a couple of dribbles, pump fakes, and mimics a move toward the basket , will usually be fouled by shorter defenders. Have you noticed how infrequently his pet move turns into a three point play?

Martin plays very soft defense, gets a few uncontested rebounds, and has a tendency to falter in the last five minutes.

Sooner or later, all great players are lauded for "making everyone around them better." At this point, the same cannot be said for Martin. He has a ways to go before being considered a bona fide all star.

by aspen on Jan 13, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Best Kings Players

"Your crazy"--Did you mean, "you're crazy"? I believe Artest and Salmons are the two best players on the team. Getting to the foul line doesn't translate to having a killer instinct.

Martin plays very soft defense, gets a few uncontested rebounds, and has a tendency to falter in the last five minutes.

by aspen on Jan 13, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This isn't the same roster Adelman played with.

To bring Rick Adelman into this discussion doesn't make any sense. Brad Miller, 1/2 a season of Artest, a second year Kevin Martin and a rookie Francisco is really all that left from the Adelman roster. Bibby has yet to play, SAR is out for the season and K-9 doesn't play enough to matter. And it's not like the Kings have a great defense and they are still six games under .500.

Theus is doing some very good in game coaching, his players are playing hard and they are showing improvement but...just like we have learned from Ron Artest, the NBA is about more than just what happens on game night. Theus needs to reel himself in or someone needs to do it for him. Kevin Martin is the future of the Kings, more than Salmons, Garcia or Artest. You don't have to play some one because of the dollar amount he gets paid but lets be honest here, Martin is averaging over 24 points a game on the season. Martin is the Kings best and most efficient offensive player. Martin needs to play 38 minutes a game for this team to have a chance to get back in the playoff race.

Could Martin play better defense? Sure, but so could almost every player on this roster. Artest has not been the stopper that he has been in past years, Garcia plays ole D all the time and its not like Beno Udrih is Gary Payton in his prime. The only player who has really been a star defensively every night is Salmons who should start from here on out.

All of these issues will be cleared up before the trade deadline.

We are slipping into the NBA abyss.

by jjham15 on Jan 12, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Important to note

After reading the article a few times, it seems to me that Theus has a problem with Martin's agent and/or the medical staff, not with Martin. I'm OK with that.

What concerns me is that you would think that a coach would prefer to keep this stuff in house as opposed to airing the team's laundry in the media. That's the one thing that Theus will eventually need to change. He's never met a microphone that he didn't like, and in this day and age that could come back to bite him in the arse.

Bibby? Who cares? Dude underperformed last year, has been hurt this year, and just thinks someone should hand him the keys? Earn it, Mike! If you're as good as you think you are that should not take too long.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 12, 2008 11:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'll Back Reggie On This One

I think this comment pretty much sums it up:

"(Martin and Bibby) are perfectly aware of my thoughts and how I feel."

That counters what Bibby said and makes him the heavy.

A lot of this could be just press misinterpretations. The press asks players and coaches questions, and they are going to answer them. Naturally everything they tell the reporter isn't written up.

Bottom line: Reggie is in charge, and the players need to suck it up, play ball and shut up.

The real problem is we have eight players for the three wing positions, all of whose play merit serious playing time, and only one real quality option for the two positions up front in Miller. So a trade is going to have to be made that addresses both points.

Just as a side note: if no deal is done by the time Artest returns, either Justin Williams or Kenny Thomas is going to have to be waived to get down to a 12-man roster.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 12, 2008 11:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

You mean de-activated

They can have up to 15 players under contract, but only 12 can be active. This can be changed daily, however, as the old days of patella tendinitis and 5 game injured lists are a thing of the past.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jan 12, 2008 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bibby and Martin Returning

This topic is getting more attention than it deserves. 1. Bibby should be traded (yesterday) for whatever GP can get--an expiring contract would suffice. He does not fit into the Kings' future plans, plus Udrih is is a better all-around player anyway.

2. Martin should be content with coming off the bench initially. There is a huge difference between practive sessions and games. Theus will work him back into the lineup at an appropriate pace. His performance should determnine whether he regains the starting position.

Team morale looks good to me. The players who have stepped up the past few weeks are motivated and none of them will be quick to support Martin or Bibby regarding playing time.

by aspen on Jan 12, 2008 1:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

A couple of things

Whether Theus overplayed his hand I do not exactly know. Whether it was smart to play that card I do not know either. I do know that Theus is in a lose-lose situation that would not dictate a happy outcome no matter what happens.

I DO know Martin's agent was being an overbearing asshole.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 12, 2008 2:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Oh and this quote is interesting

"If (Levien) had a question, he should've called me," Theus said. "(Martin and Bibby) are perfectly aware of my thoughts and how I feel."

And one last question? Where is David Falk in all of this? Or whomever represents Bibby these days. That's why I'm a lil sketchy of your take TZ. There are some seemingly inconstancies in this whole ordeal. And before I judge yay or nay on who really fucked up in this deal I want to know the whole story and some minor, but important, things in this before I say oh yes for sure Reggie screwed this thing up every which way.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 12, 2008 2:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well..

Let's put it this way: Would you rather Levien said something about this, or Martin?

Someone needed to let Theus know he was overstepping and being publicly disrespectful of two hard-working, veteran players.

by Ziller on Jan 12, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it says more

about Amick than anybody. I pretty much see it as him throwing a bone to MB10 more than anything. That's my gut feeling. I partly wonder about it in the sense that Mike is quoted and Kevin isn't. Since when does Amick have a problem getting a quote from Kevin?

And that's noting that Theus has been a tad abrasive in a few ways over the season.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Jan 13, 2008 1:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Also Iffy

There are too many sides and stories for me to try and figure out who is to blame here. We have, Bibby, Martin, Levien, Theus. Although TZ's explanation seems the most rational right now, most of the fighting words are coming from an agent. Unless validated, I see no reason to trust an agent. Based on Martin's attitude you'd think he'd want to be back ASAP. Given that he's wrapped up for 5 years, why would his agent be overly concerned about him hustling back? And feel the need to call out Theus? I now envision every word that comes out of Bibby to be sarcastic, but its impossible to tell in print when he is being sarcastic or not.
Too many unknowns for me to try and draw up some soap opera in my head. And why would I want to? I'm sure we'll all get to read an overly dramatized piece from Ailene Voisin soon.

by CAB on Jan 12, 2008 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's what I take from this

Right or wrong, Theus' somewhat abrasive personality is impacting his players. Might be a big deal down the road, might not. But for as early as he is in his tenure, I'm not sure this kind of thing bodes well.

I really like what Theus has done with this team, but have you heard him admit to a mistake yet? If your coach is always laying the blame on the players, it doesn't matter if they are "good" guys or "bad" guys - they are going to push back.

Just like his "no cell phone" rule, I think this will probably blow over in a short amount of time. But I'm guessing there will be more to deal with in the future, if Reggie doesn't learn how to manage his dialogue with the players better.

by otis29 on Jan 12, 2008 8:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

>>Someone needed to let Theus know he was overstepping and being publicly disrespectful of two hard-working, veteran players.<<

I don't see what's wrong with what Reggie did:

He remained steadfast that he has high expectations of all his players, both on offense and defense.
He's mindful of disrupting momentum and wants to work the players into the lineup at the appropriate place.
If they were ready to return, he wanted them to return.
He remained accessible to the media.

Only on the last point can he be faulted a bit for trying to be Dr. Reggie.

The players are being played big bucks and are paid to play, not coach.

I think this will all blow over.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 12, 2008 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ditto...

For crying out loud fella's, it's basketball! They will prove they can play after injury, they will contribute to the flow of the game off the bench or starting, and things will progress at a smoother pace without disrupting the current chemistry of Salmons/Udrih/Moore/Miller/Garcia/Jones/Douby etc, regardless of what Reggie says. The ball will go up, the players will play, and not care about what was said a night or two ago. Trust me, it all comes down to the players wanting to get on the court and compete, and that is exactly what they will be doing soon. GO KINGS!

by sillysill on Jan 12, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs