Sactown Royalty: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: The USA TODAY/Bloody Elbow Top 50 MMA Fights Ever, I


spread the word

Hollinger's Kevin Martin Projection Has Befuddled Me

[This post is long and blustery. A shorter, less blustery statement is also available.]

I'm a big fan of John Hollinger. I use his terms, his metrics, his philosophies, his analytical style. As close as I'd associate myself to any School of NBA Thought, it's the Hollinger school. Anyone who reads me here or at FanHouse knows this. Know this: I appreciate Hollinger's methods.

Hollinger, in his '08-09 projections, figures a drop in Kevin Martin's production is coming, from a PER of 21.07 in '07-08 to 19.98.

Is it because Martin's shooting will suffer under the weight increased shot attempts? I'd understand that -- there's a general expectation that forcing increased shots on a player decreases the player's efficiency.

But Hollinger projects Martin's already sterling True Shooting percentage (61.8%) to get even better (a scandalous 64.2%).

Is it because Martin will tally more turnovers and fewer assists registering as the sole focal point of the offense? That might make sense.

Hollinger projects Martin will earn more assists per possession and fewer turnovers.

So how on Earth will Kevin Martin get worse (according to PER) in his fifth season?

He'll ... ahem ... he'll shoot less.

Hollinger's system for projection is built on skill curves, age curves and (mostly) similarity scores. So apparently some statistically similar player (Reggie Miller? Rip Hamilton?) saw their usage rates go down at age 26. And this, apparently, has more relevance than the fact Martin has been knighted the sole offensive focal point and the team's other '07-08 weapon was traded for a 20-year-old and a back-up PG and the coach, GM and players in Sacramento have all repeatedly referred to Martin as the no. 1 option.

I mean, it's not like Hollinger doesn't know this stuff. In the profile, he writes:

Martin is 25, he's improved every year, and he's about to take on a much larger offensive role (um, right Reggie?) now that Artest and Mike Bibby have been traded. All signs point to a big scoring year from Martin, and given how efficient he's been percentage-wise it could translate into his first-ever All-Star appearance.

[Emphasis mine.] How does that acknowledged fact square with Hollinger's projection that Martin's usage will fall? It doesn't. And while it's admirable that Hollinger apparently keeps all subjectivity out of his projections, isn't all the stuff about taking on a greater share of the offense really a rather important factor? Like, if Gregg Popovich said "Bruce Bowen will not take more than 2 FGAs per game this season, or else he will feel 5,000 volts of electricity course through his body" ... wouldn't that be an important factor you'd want to take into account if you were projecting how many points Bowen would score per game?

All of this isn't to bash Hollinger -- again, I'm a fan -- but to point out the problems with pure objectivity. Hollinger has some facts which could improve the accuracy of one of the major factors in his formula, but he cannot use those facts because they aren't data. You can't use regression analysis to predict how many minutes per game or how many shots a player will take. Well ... you can. But it's not going to be more accurate than common sense.


This post shorter and less blustery: Hollinger has projected the Kings will win 23 games. He has also projected Kevin Martin will be a smaller part of the offense this season. Take John Hollinger's projections with a grain of salt.

UPDATE: Hollinger also projects that literally every single King who played in the NBA last season will become a worse rebounder ... in some cases (Hawes, Martin, Miller) a substantially worse rebounder. The Kings finished #22 and #27 in offensive and defensive rebounding percentage last season. I'm eager to either a) see how much they can possibly get, which is what Hollinger expects, or b) watch Jason Thompson average 25 rebounds a game.

0 recs | Comment 19 comments | Share on Facebook Digg!

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Sactown Royalty

The Kings Don't Need Another Center

Jun 2009 by Ziller - 153 comments

Introducing the Box Model

Jun 2009 by Ziller - 40 comments

It's Easy to Understand

Apr 2009 by Ziller - 11 comments

Kevin Martin: Out Against Phoenix

Apr 2009 by Ziller - 22 comments

Comments

Display:

Let me take a crack at it...

Kevin Martin’s lanky body is going to get injured. Sorry folks.

by Fire Stern Now! on Oct 8, 2008 3:17 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Injury

That would only potentially impact his “PER” if he played hurt, wouldn’t it?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 8, 2008 4:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Makes absolutely no sense

Kevin will shoot more and score more. There’s no way his PER goes down, period!

I think Hollinger’s objectivity is definitely questionable. If Martin’s PER were to be the same as last year, which is highly likely, then he’d be #16 on hollinger’s list above the following:

Roy
Landry
Nash
Ford
Boozer
Bynum
Iverson
Gasol
Arenas
D-Will

It seems as if Hollinger didn’t want to rate Kevin higher than those. I honestly think he made his list of best NBA players and assigned the PER from there and made a few adjustments. But PER is supposed to measure efficiency, Kevin’s staple. Anytime people talk about him the mention the word “efficient.” It really makes no sense for Hollinger to project this his efficiency will drop.

But whatever, I’m not the ESPN writer

Kevin Martin, line 1 holding for you. Your destiny is calling. - Section214

by vfettke on Oct 8, 2008 3:17 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't agree

I don’t think that happened. I think Hollinger’s regressions got in the way of common sense regarding Martin’s usage.

by Ziller on Oct 8, 2008 4:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like John Hollinger's exploration of numbers

Because I think he’s done alot to help explain how Kobe or LeBron could be more valuable than just sheer “I say so because I eyeballed it.”

But, I also think his basketball knowledge gets in the way of how he judges, in this case as you say, regressions and mean’s. Or whatever exact metric he used to calculate Martin’s drop.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Oct 9, 2008 12:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another thing

It seems to me he’s basing the entire regression on his inability to pass which is not something he was asked to do in the past particularly when not receiving the ball as much as he should over the course of the game.

I think, like you TZ, that Hollinger understands the numbers, but he isn’t reading the total situation and how it’s very mis-leading in Kevin Martin’s case.

I really believe Martin will shock the whole world with his total basketball ability. And people thought I was crazy when I told them in 2006 he had a chance to be a 5 time all-star. (I just wish I had posted it here.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Oct 9, 2008 12:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not why

People think you’re crazy.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 9, 2008 6:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

God-Dammit!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Oct 9, 2008 10:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

equally disappointed in Hollinger...

I don’t understand the Martin conclusion nor do I believe as Hollinger that every important Kings player will regress. Hollinger argues that several had near career years last year and that regression to the “norm” is to be expected. Take Brad, as an example, Hollinger seems to think Brad’s “lost” year (injured and under Musselman) was more normal than Brad’s performance last year (healthy and happy). These assumptions support is 23 win prediction. The one thing I read that he said (can’t recall if it was in a chat or in summary) that I hadn’t considered and am worried about is that he thinks our “second-best” player is a substantial drop-off from most teams. I think he and most of us would think its Salmons, and Hollinger argues that maybe only the OKC Thunder has a worst second-banana in the West. Not sure he’s wrong about that unless Salmons surprises. If he’s right, 23 might not be as pessimistic as I first thought when I read his analysis.

by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Oct 8, 2008 3:54 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Our second best player

is Brad Miller. I don’t think it is even close. Salmons will likely be our second best scorer. He’s not our second best player, however. So, that might not make much difference within the context of Hollinger’s analysis but still wanted to put it out there.

by Kusian on Oct 8, 2008 4:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was just going to post the same thing

Brad is ranked as the #15 center on Hollinger’s list, so yeah definitely our second best.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Oct 8, 2008 4:02 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In fact

he’s the only other King ranked above the “NBA Average” of 15.00

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Oct 8, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

interesting

I think I would agree about Brad, unless you by Hollinger’s regression analysis, which would suggest otherwise…how do we feel about Brad being #2? If there’s no clear consensus #2, is that evidence of a problem?

by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Oct 8, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ummm

Isn’t this the third year in a row that Hollinger has predicted a drop int Martin’s PER?

When he became a starter: “Can’t handle all the minutes, PER will drop.”
When he broke out: “Last year, was a fluke, people know now, PER will drop.”
When he’s about to be an all-star: “I’m a f@cking hater BizTHCEs, and I still say his PER will drop.”

Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'

by iashwash on Oct 8, 2008 4:08 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Hollinger

but, his system needs a revamp IMO

by Ultrakingsfan on Oct 8, 2008 6:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's my main problem with him

He’s done some interesting stuff, but has gotten fat (aka a regular job) with what he’s done, and I’m sure the ESPN people are “encouraging” him to stick with what worked.

His models are flawed in that there are a direct protrayal of his beliefs in a prescribed system, and the method for selecting his adjusting constants wouldn’t hold up for 10 seconds in any sort of academic setting. Hollinger has made a hugely important first step, but somebody really needs to take this to the next level and start analyzing the analysis.

Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'

by iashwash on Oct 8, 2008 7:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't get Hollinger at all

He seems to have a mathematical/analytical approach but uses it for some bizarre conclusions. He lost me completely this summer with his repeated “most similar at age” comparisons between Beno and Vonteego Cummings. Are you kidding me? Criticize the Beno signing if you will, but how can anyone look at their numbers and tell me those are “most similar” players.

I don’t know if it’s his personal bias or the machine has simply busted. His analysis is interesting and amusing, but little more. I get that he’s going for “efficiency” rather than overall effectiveness, and that’s great for separating the shot-happy Iversons from guys like Kevin Martin who get 12 touches and score 30. But in the overall scheme, what does it mean? For example, he had Carl Landry ranked extremely high all last year, but I didn’t see teams falling all over themselves for Carl Landry in free agency this summer.

by ttylerbballcamper on Oct 8, 2008 10:03 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

playing a little devil's advocate...

i scrolled through the guys with a higher PER than kmart. now, keep in mind that i did not scrutinize their individual numbers closely…so if that makes my response cringe-worthy, feel free to skip it ;)

…when i looked at the players with higher PER, with a couple exceptions, i couldn’t really make the argument that “kevin really does more with his time on the court than ”.

that being said, i believe kmart will post a higher PER than projected…

by sactoreg on Oct 9, 2008 5:37 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

above should read…

… i couldn’t really make the argument that "kevin really does more with his time on the court than (insert higher PER here)".

by sactoreg on Oct 9, 2008 5:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Sactown Royalty, the best community of Sacramento Kings fans in the universe. That's not my opinion; it's scientific fact.
Start posting about the Kings »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Eastern_logs_small
Can we trade with Utah already please?
Farworld_water_small
Putting the "Build" in "Rebuilding"
Eastern_logs_small
Let's Lighten Up a Little: Nickname Thread Part 1
3745e0cf-0882-4430-9b66-edee27c412afnews
Post-Draft Team Salaries
Images_small
Time You Realize Excellence at Kahn's Expense

Recent FanPosts

Eastern_logs_small
Nickname Thread Part 3 - Winners!
Eastern_logs_small
Nickname Thread Part 2: Run-off Thread for Tyreke Evans
174136_550x550_mb_art_r0_small
Rubio Staying in Spain
Small
Should We Try To Sign Hedo ?
Small
Wish List
Small
Small FA acquisitions, Linas and his blanky.
Small
Don't underestimate the stupidity of the Clippers

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

Local Sponsors


Editor

Ziller-laser_small Ziller

Joe_kleine_small section214

Associate Editor

Coachie_small rbiegler

Authors

Banana_small Exhibit G

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports