The Kings are horrible. The team is a mismatched batch of parts that shouldn't fit, couldn't fit,...

The Kings are horrible. The team is a mismatched batch of parts that shouldn't fit, couldn't fit, and (eventually) won't fit. The team competed like mad all last season. The squad's offense, while iffy, is at least innovative and trying new things. The team is fun to watch. The team entertains the fans. The team works hard. The team is injured. The team has no singular focus off the court. The team has a singular focus on the court. The team should be worse than it is. And you want to fire the coach of this team?

Kelly Dwyer of Ball Don't Lie

7 months ago Ziller Comment 32 comments 0 recs |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

KD's off the reservation on this

But he is correct about the specifics. This team plays hard, and the offense is fun to watch. We have some injuries, etc.

Why is it so hard for people to accept the possibility that Theus has done an admirable job in his short tenure, yet he might not be the right guy to take them to the next level? Here we are, excited about a bit of progress, yet possibly blind to the ceiling we may eventually be crashing into.

In short, I believe it’s possible that Theus has done a very good job and also that he should be fired. These ideas should not be mutually exclusive.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 9:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

but how would the team possibly get better THIS SEASON by firing Theus?

If he’s not the guy to take us to the next level (which he’s probably not), then why not just not renew him at the end of the season?

You can tell by the rampant ticket hawking on the TV broadcasts that they’re struggling to get butts in seats, and throwing the season in the toilet won’t help anything.

by Viliphied on Nov 17, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would hope they would wait until the offseason

And I’m not even sure he should be fired. I’m just offering up the idea that there can be both current success and future problems.

However, I would be ok with Theus getting the axe in-season IF there is a better long-term option out there that Kings management (not just the Maloofs, but Petrie as well) feels is the right guy.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with that

My entire problem is with the handling of this by Joe Maloof, and the way his family has acted when these types of issues have come up in the past Otis.

As far as everything you say, I agree with it. I don’t agree with Joe Maloof doing what he did on Friday, with the hidden agenda he had with Whiz looming around. As far as I’m concerned, there should be no consideration of Whiz ever becoming involved in the Kings basketball operations. He IS NOT Jerry Reynolds.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the scariest part

Whisenant’s presence, as well as TZ broaching the topic of Petrie’s retirement (since he turned 60).

Those two added together = pretty frickin scary future for the franchise.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not unless the Maloof's get the memo Wayne Cooper should take over

Which I’m not sure they will.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We don't know how good the Reg really is

How can you tell what his ceiling is? It’s not like he inherited the ‘02 Kings and has done poorly. KD is absolutely right. The Kings should not be as good as they have been. I think it’ll wear off eventually as some players get frustrated throughout the season, but if given a good bunch of youngsters to develop, he might surprise us all

Kevin Martin, line 1 holding for you. Your destiny is calling. - Section214

by vfettke on Nov 17, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunno if there is a ceiling

I’m just asking the question.

I guess this goes back to the question of whether the Maloofs and Petrie are on the same page. Is Joe spouting the Maloof’s feelings or is this the position of Management (including GP)?

I think one plus season is close to enough time to evaluate a coach. I’d guess it is even moreso for someone like GP…and TZ detailed some of the current issues with Theus’ system (or lack thereof) that may not translate well to long-term success. If that’s the case, and considering the amount of talented young players we have on the roster currently, why would you want to keep a guy around that’s not going to be the long-term solution?

Again, I’m not advocating the termination of Coach Theus, unless GP feels it’s necessary.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think GP & the Maloof's are on the same page

I think they think better defense is the way to win a championship, and they’re firmly stuck in that belief. I don’t think a single family member understands that winning a game is creating separation in the scoring column by scoring so much the other guys can’t keep up, or playing enough defense to keep the other guys from scoring.

If you don’t want to fire Petrie, and if you let him draft guys he wants, then why are you spending so much time nitpicking at a coach? This is what I don’t understand, and continue to fail to comprehend. The other Maloof’s aren’t talking, but not a single person can tell me that what Joe did was not scripted or pre-planned. I even wonder if Whitey was told beforehand that certain questions weren’t going to be answered beforehand similar to way the Washington press is informed of that every time Bush takes the dais.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think they think = the Maloof's

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, it doesn't make sense

Unless Petrie and the Maloofs are on the same page, then it does (at least to me). I think you have to at least consider that possibility.

Joe’s trying to emphasize that the franchise isn’t just looking to win, but win big. He enjoys dealing with the local media, and GP doesn’t.

So I get what he’s doing, but I agree that it’s better to keep these things in house unless Theus is fully in the loop on what Joe is saying.

Honestly, I listened to the interview and I think it’s a bit overblown. I still don’t think Joe was saying anything outrageous, it’s just the forum he used that’s the problem. And Reggie’s pretty familiar using that forum himself, so my sympathy is somewhat subdued.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't have sympathy for Reggie Otis

This isn’t about sympathy. It’s about the fact I think Joe was publicly scripted to say the things he did. THAT is what bothers me. What bothers me is Whiz looming around in the shadows after the aftermath of this crap. What bothers me is that we’re talking about something so lightweight with such heavy connotations as if it mattered so greatly (it really shouldn’t I wholeheartedly agree with that part), but that’s what makes this more alarming. I feel alarmed after what seems like/ should be a fairly insignificant action. It alarms me because of the past history, and as you well know, when there’s smoke there’s fire.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I think the same of Kelly. The team is a good team, but it has suffered a lot of injuries, problems and besides, the future of the team is the most important

by Matenja on Nov 17, 2008 11:39 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Firing Reggie

Is a stupid idea. The roster has changed a lot since last year, he didn’t keep Brad out of the 1st five games, Brad did, and all his shooting guards have been hurt.

Its crazy to talk about a ‘lack of a system’ when he hasn’t had three games in a row yet to impliment one. He’s had to adlib and adjust to this new players by the seat of his pants.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2008 11:46 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

So

He shouldn’t have been developing a system last year?

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Seems to me

we finished the season strong.

No Artest does change your system, adapting to new young bigs does change your system.

Not having even a single true shooting guard available, does change your system, it eliminates a lot of possibilities when your high scorer is one of them.

Of course I want him to develop something, i just don’t think he’s had a breath to see his roster together yet.

Give it some time, both he and this team have a lot of upside.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2008 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

You don't think...

That a good coach has a system that his players work into, and his GM tries to work within?

I guess Phil Jackson should hang up the triangle then, depending on his roster.

One of the things that made Adelman and Petrie great is that Petrie knew just what kind of players fit into Adelman’s system. They were a cohesive unit. And management is clearly frustrated right now in the fact that Theus hasn’t really developed a “system”.

Again, this is not Reggie Theus’ first year as the coach of the Kings.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But it is Reggie's first year coaching "this" group of players

Which is significantly different as a core than the team that started last season, and to an extent, finished last season.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Understood

My point was about his experience as a head coach, and his philosophy towards the offense or defense, or if he’s tried to develop this mythical “system” we keep discussing.

Players are going to change every year for every franchise. His philosophy should remain the same.

Again, some of this goes to the expectations of the franchise for Theus. If it is just to win games – period – then I’d say Theus is getting the shaft from management here.

If it is less about wins than it is to develop his own coaching style and get his players into a structured system, then he’s running out of time, IMO.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You're both right

Pook is right – and you should expect a working system regardless. Good teams actually don’t have big changes to thier core every year, last season was an abberation, the exception.
Even so, we’re not ‘re-tooling’ here, we’re ‘rebuilding’, a totally different equation.

And yes, i think Theus is getting the shaft here if those comments by joe were more than just momentary frustration.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with that too

I think Otis & I both are right on this. One side can’t be said without the other. I just think we need to all back off for awhile, and record what’s going on. That way our emotions don’t dictate our arguments, and vice versa.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes but not in that way Otis

I think he should be able to quickly adapt to his talent, but to be fair, the way this team has started, and with the schedule being what it is, it’s just a tough thing to do & expect. Fans are often unreasonable & demanding. It comes with the lot. Being patient is something that should be added to the repertoire for this season, however.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

System, we don't need no stinkin system

What we need is a couple of players that can sink a clutch shot. The offensive system is there, but the players aren’t exacuting it very well. Brad’s play at the high post is one dimentional, he can only pass. His jump shot is weak and he can’t roll to the rim without losing the ball. When Mikki is in we’re playing 4 against 5 because everyone knows he has no offense and is reluctant to take a shot. None of the bigs set screens very well, and Beno is too impatient or doesn’t know how too use them very well. When the bigs come out to set a screen, Beno doesn’t wait for them to get set. And, usually moves away from the screen instead of running his man off of it. And, our 3pt shooting is one of the worst in the league. And, still they are in the top third in the league in scoring.

The defense had the wings calapsing into the paint and leaving the 3pt shooters open because our guards couldn’t stay in front of their man, and Miller & Moore are terrible at protecting the paint. They can’t block shots or even alter shoots because their too slow and never leave their feet. Now, with JT playing the 3, we have to play zone which leaves too much room, and the 3pt shooters are open again.

So, don’t look for a defensive system to cure the opponents 3pt shooting success. Unless JT dramaticly improves his help defense or we trade for a defensive stopper to replace Moore, our defensive system will be everyone calapse to protect the paint and gamble that the 3pt shooter run cold.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Nov 17, 2008 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

two points

We haven’t had most of our 2 guards to defend so far this year so it may be premature

As for sinking the clutch shot, see my ‘Incomplete Roster’ thread.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not that KD is so much better than other nat'l writers (well he is but that's besides the point--Does Henry Abbott count as a writer?)

It’s just that he asks the salient and reasonable question. If the Maloof’s didn’t want to keep Reggie on after the season, okay, but I’d want reasons. Once salient & applicable reasons pop up, okay I’m on board. But I’ve never seen it. Not with Adelman. Didn’t see it with the hiring process in Musselman. Didn’t see it with the firing process in Musselman. (Actually that is the only place I did see that. Shame really.) Didn’t see it much during the hiring process as there were plenty of what if’s even when Reggie was hired.

What I’d like is reasonable action surrounding this team. I don’t like machinations, and I don’t like bad allusions to Shakespearean themes. But I see it all the time with this team, and for a team with such “great” owners, I think Joe in particular spends too much time increasing his fame. How many people here have heard of Bill Davidson (other than TZ—I know he knows for sure who that is), or Peter Holt? What about Mickey Arison? Who here has heard of the Simon Brothers? These guys are guys who make very little noise. Thats’ what I would prefer out of my ownership. (This is of course, TZ, not to say that quiet ownership guarantees that the team won’t make horrible, bad, or awful headlines.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 17, 2008 12:10 PM PST reply actions 1 recs

Reggie Theus...

Is the worst head coach the Kings have had this year.

by Citadel 29 on Nov 17, 2008 2:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs

Otis's first post

has a circular logic that is hard to refute. You make the point that Reggie is the right coach to take the team to point x but that it will be necessary to have another coach take us to point y which is presumably success and at least the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Question: Where is point x? Where exactly has Reggis led us to?

Question: What kind of coach do we need to lead us to point y? More specifically is the coach you think can take us to the next level is available now?

If we are going to have a WNBA coach as our interim coach I would like to nominate Bill Lamebeir.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Nov 17, 2008 4:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Circular how?

We do this with players all the time. Player X may be showing improvement, he may be putting up gaudy stats, but he might not be the right guy for the long term (hello Vince Carter). If you think circular logic is saying that Reggie might both be doing a good job with this squad yet might not be the right guy to take it the rest of the way, I don’t know what to tell you.

My take is specific only to the question of how Kings management sees Reggie Theus as the future coach of the Sacramento Kings. I have nothing to offer as far as which coach is out there right now that would do a better job than Theus. That is Petrie’s job.

Again, I’m not even saying I think Theus should be fired at this point. But if Petrie doesn’t feel that Theus is the answer long-term, I’d rather they axe him now and move on. I disagree with most of the posters here that feel that Reggie hasn’t had a chance to prove himself…I think a full season and a handful of additional games is plenty of time to show Kings management what they need to see as to his long-term potential.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Nov 17, 2008 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I might agree

If it wasn’t for all of the changes to the roster, of which none can be blamed on the coaching staff, I could agree with you.

For those who are in agreement with Joe’s statement about Theus’s system and how it needs to be more like Adelmans’, I got this from Bill Ingrams’ Q&A column at Hoopsworld today.

Hello Bill What do you think about Rockets players not being able to run Adelman’s motion offense even now after a full year behind them.And don’t tell me it is because we have 2 new pieces in Ron and Barry,they are veterans not rookies.

Bill Ingram:
Yeah . . .they need to get things together quickly. It’s been hit or miss so far, and that second unit is UGLY

If Adelman’s system doesn’t work well with a veteran roster and 3 Stars, maybe it’s just as well that we don’t have one like it.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Nov 17, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Reggie - Future - Joe

If Reggie has a system, then it is missing a few gears. The missing gears could be blamed on injuries, I’ll take that as an excuse in Reggie’s favor and cut him some slack. But I do agree with Joe in the system part of his interview. A system works regardless of the pieces – so with injuries, is Reggie not doing a good job of teaching? A system removes disorganization and confusion, which the kings at crunch time appear disorganized and confused – is Reggie changing his system too often? The line in professional sports is razor thin between great and champion. You have to break out the micro scope and split hairs. A system wins you the games you are supposed to win – Suns with no Nash, Barbosa or Barnes. Spurs without Manu or Parker. A great system tells the world what you are going to do, try and stop us.

Rick is a great coach. I would love to see him have this team with the athleticism and talent, but Rick didn’t get it done in Portland or Sacramento to get the ring. No one on this kings team is a leader and that is the problem. Too often talent is mistaken for leadership, Martin is not a leader – he is the perfect second man, “just let me stay silent and do my job”. Miller is too busy throwing tantrums for anyone to respect him. Spencer may be the guy who has what it takes to be a true leader, but he is coming off the bench and ignored offensively.

What bothered me most about Joe’s interview was his comment “Chuck whatever his name is”. How disrespectful is that? Joe, if you can’t name the employees running your investment, you should probably stay quiet. You did not sound like an owner, you sounded like a spoiled brat or better yet, the guy with a new Titans jersey… the Titans are my favorite team, but I can’t name the offensive line, the line backers, the coach…

by STH114 on Nov 18, 2008 10:09 AM PST reply actions 2 recs

Some points

A particular system does not work with every roster. Could the Spurs run and gun? Nope. There are many examples, such as GS trying to play a half-court post style. A GM and couch have to get together and mesh style and personnel. For instance, this team just doesn’t have enough ‘shooters’ period.

Name me a successful team that doesn’t have three or four pure shooters they can call on, starters and bench.

I agree with your leader comment completely however, KM is your #1 scorer but doesn’t seem likely to ever be your #1 leader. Ray Allen comes to mind. Its been my concern ever since Artest was clearly on his way out. Who will be the emotional leader on this roster? It almost always is a starter although I think Ginobli does it off the bench for SA, an exception

The maloofs should shut up this early, with the roster changes, with the injuries.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 18, 2008 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Artest wasn't a leader either

That was the problem.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 18, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs