Brad Miller, Friend or Foe?

by Ice_9ine on Nov 25, 2008 3:44 PM PST Comment 45 comments

I know the Kings played horrible in those first 5 games without Miller, and they have since picked it up with him starting. My question is whether or not he really is helping the team.

Miller does not rebound well for his size because he is out of shape, he does not fight for position, and he cannot jump. He cannot move his feet to play defense. He does not run hard down the floor but twice a game.

He can hit a few jumpers and pass out of the high post.

I think Spencer needs to start. He may not have the strength, but the effort is there.

So my question is, should Miller be moved to the bench, as a valuable veteran and team leader? Or should the Kings actively shop him around and include him in trade talks?

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Also, is he really valuable as a team leader?

Seriously, he started of the season with a drug suspension, he doesnt appear to ever have worked out hard, he whines to the referees, he doesn’t have any camaraderie with any of his teammates.

I think he is a good person though.

by Ice_9ine on Nov 25, 2008 3:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Friend for now...

In my opinion, the Kings should keep Brad where he is (both in Sacramento and starting) and let the team continue to grow around him – until the trading deadline. Other than the Lakers and Celtics, the NBA is a competetive free for all and there should be pretty strong interest for a offensively skilled center with only 1 more year on his contract after this one. I don’t know what the deal would look like, but getting back a young big and a mid to late first round pick sounds pretty good to me. If I was the GM of an eastern conference team in the middle of the playoff pack, Brad would be an interesting piece.

Also, Spencer needs to be able to buy a six pack before he is starting in the NBA…

by Mcamp49 on Nov 25, 2008 3:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

You won't get the young big

and the first rounder. You might get one or the other, but not both for certain. The people who keep saying that are realistically over-estimating how valuable Miller is TO OTHER teams.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 25, 2008 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Is he out of shape?

Not sure about that, he looks to be in decent shape. And you forgot to mention that he’s one of the only Kings that consistently sets solid screens for his teammates.

I suspect if Miller were as nefarious a character in the locker room as you say, we would know by now. I’m not sure too many of his teammates are going to be upset about a suspension for smoking pot. Sure, it was unprofessional, and he got hammered for it, but I figure one real lapse in judgment in a long playing career is nothing to kill the guy over.

In short, I’m not sure I see the same things you are seeing on the court. Methinks you are viewing him through a skewed lens.

And pookey is right, Miller’s value to this team is exponentially higher than to most other franchises. Although anyone running a high post offense with a decent low post defender opposite Miller to cover his weaknesses would be perfect.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Nov 25, 2008 4:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

He has seemed off

the past week or two though. Uncharacteristic turnovers, erratic shot. Do you think he’s learning how to play ~~destoned~~…~~unstoned~~…resobered? ;p

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 25, 2008 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The turnovers have been an issue

But you also have to take into consideration how much he handles the ball. The guy is in the top-50 in the entire league in assist to turnover ratio, and #1 among centers.

He did have a few bad games, but that’s not anything new with Brad. Neither is the whining, nor is the lack of rebounding and interior defense. I just see him as the same old Brad Miller – a guy who makes his team better, even though he might not look great doing it.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Nov 25, 2008 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

I like Brad, and I agree we’re just better with him playing. He seems to be quicker this season too, driving more and more effectively. He definitely looks thinner.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 25, 2008 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interestingly

I looked at the Kings record with and without Brad since the start of the 2006/2007 season:

With: 65-81, .445 winning percentage
Without: 11-23, .324 winning percentage

Yes, I just went coolcat on ya!

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Nov 25, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hah

Nice. Brad is worth 8 wins a season!

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 25, 2008 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

MVP! MVP! MVP!

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Nov 25, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Brad's worth more than 8 wins a season

He’s worth a couple to the Lakers, a couple to the Suns, a couple to the Rockets…

Kidding! I’m kidding! I love that little rascal.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Do they test for booze?

Maybe he gave up the weed and has turned to the bottle.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Nov 26, 2008 12:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll be a broken record here

and say once again that the best thing would be for Brad to be dealt to another team ASAP, while he still has relatively high trade value.

Reality: the Kings are trying to rebuild. A 32 year old veteran with a big salary like Miller can’t do anything but help this team play well enough to end up somewhere in the middle of the pack. Is that our goal?

Better to trade him a year too soon than a year too late.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 25, 2008 7:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'll repeat my BMiller mantra for the haters

Call up the stats for all the Centers in the league.

I’ll guarantee you he’s top ten in scoring, top ten(ish) in rebounds, number 1 in assists etc etc

Don’t count the PFs out there posing as Centers either.
Look whats out here – very few ‘studs’ at center.

Hawes is not ready to start and may be a PF anyway.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 25, 2008 8:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the bait -

But I’m not going to take the time to weed out the glorified 4’s – if Miller is being beaten on the stat line by them, so be it.

The good: 11th in scoring, 1st in assists.

The bad: 17th in rebounds, tie-7th in turnovers.

The ugly: 42nd in blocks.

Brad’s a good player, and a guy that could help a lot of teams. I wouldn’t mind if he stayed here all year. But the moment someone offers expiring and a youngster or a draft pick, deal him.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So

First, I think blocks are way overrated – as fun as they can be to watch. Assists are points, they are making the players around you better, spreading the ball, you know, TEAM stuff.

16 teams make the playoffs and should have guys top 10-16 at least in the important categories at every position, (some have to be much higher I know). Brad fits that formula.

I’m just saying there aren’t a lot of guys out there and the grass is greener – especially to the fans of a losing team, a situation we unfortunately find ourselves in.

You want to trade him? Fine. Get someone back who can replace or be superior in performance to him. Don’t just say ‘get rid of him’ because he’s not the low-post stud all teams wish they had.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 25, 2008 9:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, to a point

I would settle for a future piece, given that this team is not going to the playoffs with or without Miller.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 10:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bingo!

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 27, 2008 3:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And before you call me a hater -

I was the guy that posted this.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 8:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Flip-flopper

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 25, 2008 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Does that make me a lover/hater?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

just a flipper lover

love that tuna

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 25, 2008 9:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep...

for the record just because I think the Kings should trade him doesn’t mean I don’t like Brad. I do. When he had the teammates around him he was quite a presence on the court, although his prime is in the rear view mirror for the most part.

I’m just trying to be practical here. Miller’s remaining with the Kings does very little to move the franchise into a brighter future, while trading him could add some long term value.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 26, 2008 1:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

See, I'm not sure

I agree with you IF you can get something of real value for him. If it’s draft picks, or a middle-of-the-road veteran player, or an unknown quantity – I’d rather we just kept him and let his cap number drop off after the 09/10 season. If he’s still a viable player, you sign him for a few years at a decent number to back up S&H.

So I guess I’m saying, I’d prefer cap space to just trading him for someone who has similar skills or “potential”. But then again, I’m a stubborn jackass when it comes to BMill – I could still see him being a part of the on-court solution in a few years, when this team could be contending.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Nov 26, 2008 6:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not with you on that

But I think he can bridge the gap for S & H for the next 2 seasons.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 26, 2008 6:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

and I’ll add that he’s right at his career averages right now. I’m not so sure there’s been much of a drop-off.

Much higher assists too.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 26, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So what are you saying?

That he’s viable beyond his current contract, or he’s not? ( I was saying beyond his current contract is what I disagree with.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 26, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

At the right price

and if he was willing, I would absolutely love to see him running our second team for a few more years.

Right to the Championship.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 26, 2008 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's what I disagree with lOL

I had a feeling you mis-understood as I totally fubar’d that whole statement up to begin with.

Just to be clear here, lttg, I don’t think Brad Miller is viable beyond this current contract. And it will take quite a lot to change my mind. But there is time to change my mind, but it’s unlikely to change as he’ll be 35 when this contract ends. At some point you gotta go with your young guys and let them transpire and be the players they will be.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 26, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If his numbers are where they are now

at the end of next season (34 btw) – he isn’t a valuable vet bench player?

I’d disagree. But only if his production doesn’t drop off too much.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 26, 2008 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay then

Yeah that sounds reasonable, but I don’t want that for a number of reasons. I think moving on is always a wise idea. Besides Brad might have other idea’s by 2010. Plus, thanks for the correction on the age.I really didn’t feel like looking that up.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 26, 2008 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, you're stubborn

but dammit, you’re not crazy, otis. You see Brad sticking around for “a few years”?!

You and lietothegirls, and pookey, all of you guys…. please, put down that jug of B-52 brand Kool-Aid and slowly walk away. Yes, he’s a link to our Glorious Past, so it’ll hurt a little at first but pretty soon you’ll feel better.

The Prime Directive for this franchise is rebuilding. That is all that matters. Miller can do more toward that goal by being dealt than he can by sticking around.

He’s gotta go.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 27, 2008 2:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

on this one.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 27, 2008 5:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with both of you

depending on what the trade brings back.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Nov 27, 2008 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Kings need

defense and athleticism in the front court. Badly.

And whatever remains of Miller’s gifts, he can’t do us any good in that area.

I do think you make a really interesting observation though, lietothegirls. I’m also concerned that Hawes might be more of a power forward type player than a true center. And if that’s the case we need to find out ASAP.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 27, 2008 3:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

and who wants him?

I have to believe that GP and Co. are always looking for team improvements. Brad has a resume of distinction – past All-Star, current drug suspension. That is not an upward progression and his $11M is too big of a hit with two years remaining. Seems that every NBA team is gearing up for 2010 free agency. Brad is not trade bait until his $11M is a write off. The Kings will have that write off as well.
As for his team chemistry quotient: I cannot believe that he would have been signed to a long term deal originally if he was a dog (canine variety) in the locker room or with the coaching staff. Lastly, I don’t think GP & Co. want to trade #52 for Corliss, Brian and Kenny equivalents as that arguabley backfired last time – they would want quality and young quality at that. They would be trading a starter and you usually want a starter in return. He is a King: a slow footed, defensive liability, non shot blocking, clutch choking, great passing, offensively occassionally crafty, warm smiling, referee arguing, shouldn’t be driving the lane-ing, good ol’boy who made the most of his time and talent earlier in his career, talking about but not showing pride Sacramento King until his current contract ends.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 25, 2008 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

Though we didn’t get a starter for Bibby. Come to think of it, we didn’t get a starter for Artest, either. The rules change when you’re on the re-build.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Artest is well, off limits regarding trade value

Bibby was a salary dump and a clearing to allow KMart to spread his wings.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 25, 2008 9:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Which is why the Kings can affix a value of youth or a pick for Brad. He doesn’t have to go. But if (say) the Bulls or Magic could come up with a deal that offered a young prospect or a draft pick, why would you not make the deal? You still have Hawes, Thompson, Williams and Moore to eat the minutes up front, and maybe the expiring contract that you receive in return includes some front line meat.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

lots of "if"s as all good trades are

Heck, I looked up how we got BM – gave up Scot Pollard and Hedo in a sign and trade from Indy with San Antonio involved. GP should be playing in Washington ’cause the guy is a Wizard. I am just saying that it would be a gamble to trade away a starter and get hope in return. I think we are in sync

by betweentheeyes on Nov 25, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Nov 25, 2008 9:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I also agree with many here

a rebuilding year (or two) gives the team time to play with, does ownership have the patience to allow for it?(see Nothing left but a forever in time post)

by betweentheeyes on Nov 25, 2008 9:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The voice

of reason. Why indeed would you not make the deal?

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Nov 27, 2008 2:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This team is losing the city

They can’t afford to do that much longer.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Nov 28, 2008 8:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

BM has already said he wants to sign in Indy after his contract is up

so there will be no more Brad after this contract as I’m sure Indy will happily sign him for the vets min. I say trade and get something for him as long as we dont take on too much salary that extends beyond 2010.

by Dastardly D on Nov 29, 2008 9:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs