Sactown Royalty: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: Backing the Pack for NC State Fans!


Necessary trades?? Really??

This post started as a response to PhuturesKings idea of a trade revolving around JT and Amare but then I thought that it may serve best as its own fanpost. If you haven't read it may be good to review it before reading this.

 

Star-divide

I think the idea is a little out there as in crazy. I don't think this has any chance of happening though the effort is appreciated. As PK said: it is a pipe-dream and even if it was possible to pull, I don't think a lot of peeps at StR would want to part with JT.

Now, PKs idea does bring a great point. Many contributors here have stated that our big acquisition should (will?) come through trade and not a free agent signing (idea I agree with). This trade idea highlights exactly that: get a big time player through trade. What many here haven't discussed is what we would have to give to get 'that' player.

Remember how the Celtics built their championship team? (don't think I'm comparing the Kings and the Celtics, I just think they are a good example) They accumulated a lot of young players and then traded almost all of them to get two all stars to help Pierce. They gave up their 5th pick last year (Jeff Green) and Delonte West (and Wally World) for Ray Allen and then traded half of their team (no, really) for KG (Gomes, Gerald Green, Telfair, and the main piece Al Jefferson (and Theo Rattlif expiring)). That's 6 young players (plus a pick on the KG trade) for two stars. Of course, the gmble paid off big time.

I guess my main point is: to get we gotta give. We have some big expiring contracts (K-9, Brad) but I'm not sure if that is going to net us a big piece we need to become  a contender. We are, most likely have to part with one, if not some of our young guys. Are we willing to trade JT and his upside? How about Hawes? Is double e's potential enough to make him untouchable? Bobby Brown? Even Speed and Cisco...

I'm afraid I'm gonna get so attached to these kids that I'm not going to want them to go. It's gonna happen though... I'm just glad Petrie is business first

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

0 recs | Comment 91 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

It seems premature

to trade any of our youngsters yet. They probably don’t possess much trade value now and before we acquire any new major pieces it would be nice to have a better idea of what the young guys can actually contribute.
If the Mavs’ season collapsed in the next couple of months and before the trade deadline they said “We are going in a new direction and Dirk isn’t in our future. Lets trade him before the deadline.” We could put a few good players together for a trade (Hawes, Salmons, Cisco, 1st Rounder) but we just don’t have enough talent to effectively accompany a newly acquired star. We should definitely explore those ideas in a couple of years though, once the Brad and K9 contracts expire.

by CDinSD on Dec 11, 2008 3:27 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

You make some interesting points, but the one that seems to jump out is that ideas should be explored:

…in a couple of years … once the Brad and K9 contracts expire.

If the team waits until those contracts are off the books, then how would they match salaries for a high priced, disgruntled star (a la KG, Gasol, Shuttleworth)?

I’m not suggesting that a deal should/needs to happen soon, but If a trade is to be made, it will likely need to be before 2010. If the Kings wait until afterwards, then they’re more likely going to go the FA route than trade for a star, because the only large contracts will be Martin, Garcia, & Udrih . . . and other than Martin nothing above $7M. The team could do a Camby or J-Rich type of trade using capspace, but that will likely only net a role player, and not a “star”.

by smgmatt on Dec 11, 2008 3:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cap Space in 2010 won't mean jack shyt

There will be an upwards of 5 teams willing to take on a bad long term contract with lower to mid numbers just to make their salary for that season, because that’s the only way they can get over the hump long term and short term.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 9:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

and I was not suggeting this trade will happen anytime soon. I was just trying to point out that it will most likley happen down the road and that we will need to part with one (or more) of these youngsters we so optimistically talk about. One thing to remember thought is that those young players that Minny got were not all proven so their trade value was all based on potential. Also, don’t forget how important the Theo Rattlif contract was in that KG trade and we got a couple of those type of contracts right now

I also agree with smgmatt that if a trade happens it will be before 2010

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 11, 2008 5:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course

The most important element of the KG trade was the Celt’s acquisition of Ray Allen. He was not going to Boston before they got a second all-star.

When discussing a hypothetical deal for a disgruntled star, we should remember that the star would have to view playing in Sac (i.e. on an out-of-contention, small-market team) as an improvement from his current situation.

How is Sac better for Amare? His current team has one of the best (if oldest) PGs in the league feeding him for easy buckets and a beast at C (for whom the team traded partially at Amare’s behest) absorbing much of the inside pressure. We can assume the Suns would rather replace their coach, GM, or any player on the team rather than give up the future of the franchise.

It seems to me that any Kings trade for a star would have to be both with a really bad team going into full-on rebuilding mode (like Minn prior to the KG trade) and for a player who is young enough that winning a championship immediately isn’t necessarily his primary concern (unlike KG). I know that this seems like a hard balance to strike (and it is), but it basically describes how the Kings got Webber. The best example I can think of right now would be Caron Butler (but he’s on the edge of being too old and the Wiz won’t blow it up again until they know what they have with Arenas). But all this is contingent on the development of JT, Shawes, Greene, and ‘09 rookies. And you never know what star’s team might fall from grace next year.

So we’ll wait.

by furious.d on Dec 11, 2008 8:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love the idea of building around this young group

It’s already nearly complete with Bobby Brown (he is 24) off the bench @ PG, Beno is a stop gap, which I’m fine with unless a Mike Conley can come back in trade this season, then you have Martin whose only 26 at SG, Garcia whose only 27, Greene who is 19, JT who is 22, and Shawes who is 20.

The Kings have enough young quality players that they can build around this group because they have a chance to do something with the various ages, and the belief’s they can win sooner than later.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Possible Spare Point Guards

Take your pick in a deal where Miller and Beno are sent packing:

  • George Hill, Spurs.
  • Will Bynum, Detroit.
  • CJ Watson, GS.
  • Aaron Brooks, Houston.
  • JJ Barea, Dallas.

and a guy I’ve had my eye on for a while,

Sergio Rodriguez of Portland.

Now maybe none of these guys is the ultimate answer at PG, but either is Beno. All of these guys are ranked higher in PER than Beno, so they would probably be decent substitutes. Some of these could break through with a little playing time.

Now, the question is, do any of these guys need Brad Miller and have the goods to package such a deal while giving us back something useful?

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 11, 2008 10:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do we really need a PG today?

Are we now headed to the playoffs or is this the position we need to make the finals this year?

Yes it would be nice to have a PG who played great D and could dish out assists like a waiter delivers water but do we need him this year?

Lets start where we’re weakest, interior defense & PF scoring. That’s what we need right away. Then we see what we can get in the draft, and who develops out of our rookies. Then maybe we don’t need to get a star in free agency, just some 2nd tier star might be all we’ll need. And, that’s doable with cap space.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 11, 2008 11:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not looking for the solution at PG now

I’m just saying we have mediocre point guards and if we can package them for other mediocre point guards in a deal that advances us some other way, it’s worth a look.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 11, 2008 11:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree with you there

I think HT is on the right track. Solving the inside issue is a bit harder than solving the outside issue.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 12, 2008 10:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I must not be clear

I think you could throw 30-40 point guards in a hat and it wouldn’t really matter who we ended up with. We wouldn’t much worse off as far as a final solution goes. So if you need to move one of the point guards at get something back that is similar while gaining more flexibility or improvement at one of our other need positions, you do it.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 12, 2008 3:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.
I think you could throw 30-40 point guards in a hat

Now THAT’s a big hat!

And I almost agree, but I think Beno will be much better by the end of the season than he has been so far, and I really like BBrown as an up-and-comer.

Still, you’d have to think about trading either of them if it brought you a sharp-shooting 3 or a dominant 4-5 in the package with another PG.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Dec 12, 2008 4:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love the idea too

or at least I think it’s a nice dream, but I don’t think it’s very realistic.

Pinning our hopes on the current crop of kids would be rolling the dice on an extreme long shot. All of them would have to reach the maximum of their upside for the Kings to become a legit contender.

Let’s keep in mind some of the teams standing in the Kings path to glory, all of them stocked with talent like:

  • Kobe Bryant, Pao Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom
  • Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Ronnie Brewer, Andrei Kirilinko
  • Chris Paul, Peja Stojakovich, Tyson Chandler, David West
  • Yao Ming, Luis Scola, Tracy McGrady, Ron Artest

Sorry, but I don’t see how our kids will match-up with this level of competition any time soon.
And even some of the teams that are also in the rebuilding boat, like the Trailblazers, have substantially more raw talent:

  • LaMarcus Aldridge; Greg Oden; Brandon Roy, Martell Webster, Jerryd Bayless;

And that’s just in the Western Conference!

For the current group of young Kings to leapfrog these teams in the next two or three seasons Hawes, Thompson, Greene, would all have to develop beyond the expectations of NBA scouts by a considerable degree, and in order for that development to dovetail with the prime years of K-Mart and Cisco, the kids would have to grow up at an accelerated pace.

To my mind that’s like asking King fans to defer their hopes of putting a contender on the court for another four or five years, at best.

For Sacramento to get back among the elite teams any time soon, it’s gonna require adding a least one or two established stars, either through trade or free agency, plus more canny drafting and probably a bit of luck.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Dec 13, 2008 4:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expert analysis

But that leaves us with the question “What should we do?”.

For Sacramento to get back among the elite teams any time soon, it’s gonna require adding a least one or two established stars, either through trade or free agency, plus more canny drafting and probably a bit of luck.

We can’t count on Luck, drafting below 10 is a crap shot, free agency means cap space, and trades especially for stars means major $. The cap space and FA money will only come from eliminating taking on bad contracts, overpaying role players(fewer MLE), and a large percentage of the base salary in rookie contracts.

So for now, since we have no cap space, we need to continue to rebuild thru the draft and develop our rookies. Which makes the GM & the Coaching Staff as critical as the players.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 5:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

always
So for now, since we have no cap space, we need to continue to rebuild thru the draft and develop our rookies. Which makes the GM & the Coaching Staff as critical as the players.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 13, 2008 10:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't understand this deal for either team

but especially the Suns. They end their own wild chances to be a contender after they just acquired Jason Richardson. Steve Nash and Shaq would just retire – Shaq does not want to just play for his $$ though it seems that way, and Nash would be broken. Amare is in a big market town and sees himself as an elite player ( I agree). He would be broken too. He is already the main cog on a team – this would be a demotion to go to a non playoff conteder. Unhappiness all around.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 11, 2008 7:35 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2010

Can’t we just go after Amare as a FA then without blowing up the young core in the meantime? Stoudamire isn’t going to want to be traded to a team that just sent half its future out of town.

We need to bite the bullet, and let this team suck until which point the kids form the kind of nucleus (nook-yoo-lus, for you Bushies) that a dominant talent like Stoudamire would want to lead. Until then, no major free agent is going to want to come to Sacramento.

And maybe not even then…

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Dec 11, 2008 8:13 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Short Answer: No

The odds of Sacramento signing one of the big FA’s in 2010 is somewhere below slim and above none.

If the Kings trade for one of these players before they hit the market, then they’ll be able to offer more money than anyone else via Bird Rights. This is (arguably) how Webber was retained, when he had publicly stated that he didn’t want to be here. Without trading Richmond, Webber never comes to Sacramento as a FA.

So to answer your question, the Kings probably can’t sign Amare as a FA, and would probably have to “blow up the young core in the meantime”. If there were going to be less teams with cap space in 2010 then the Kings would have a shot, but there are simply too many teams positioning themselves for the 2010 FA class.

The Kings will need to trade for a #1 guy, or else they will likely sign (and overpay) a #2 or #3 guy.

by smgmatt on Dec 11, 2008 8:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Don't count on a FA saving this team...

and don’t buy into the Miller trade talks this season either. The Kings are going to get the necessary punch this off-season/mid-season with Miller/K-9 trades to moron GMs who believe they can compete on the open market of 2010. The Kings on the other hand can’t compete just like the A’s can’t compete when someone decides to fly into town to check out the neighborhood. I mean, what do you show a potential free agent in Oakland? Rafeal Furcal, here is Lake Merit, in that apartment building the leader of the Black Panthers used to snort coke and shoot machine guns out the window of the penthouse. In Sacto- let me show you how close the suburbs are to the stadium- you have both a Walmart and a Target within walking distance and 12 Starbucks to choose from. Make sure that if you by a house, you use half your salary to insure it because your home will be an estimated 35’ under water if the levies break.

21 mill in expiring contracts are going to be worth 3- 1st round picks this off-season, mark my words. Let’s pray that K-Mart gets back on track, Garcia is our 6 man, Hawes and Thompson develop into a starting 4-5 combo for the next decade and the Kings are left to fill the small forward and point guard positions through the draft and trading Miller and K-9.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Dec 11, 2008 8:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

well said if a bit too harshly

Recl’d
Small market teams have to be smarter. The Kings have to develop from within – Portland, San Antonio, Utah style – which is why home grown talent is the best strategy. When I say home grown I mean smart draft picks, second tier stars, and a system. This is also why a Jason Levein has been brought on board. It takes time, patience, perserverance and luck. The system is of course, key.

 The most important parts of Portland’s resurgance has been GM Kevin Pritchard and Coach McMillian. That is why Coach Sloan and Coach Popovich are so very valuable. They develop the talent and the wins and now you can play with pieces on the board other than pawns.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 11, 2008 9:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Levein...

I think he is the cog in the 21 million dollar trade chip. Miller+ will go to Chicago for Deng, a Levein client so the Bulls can make a run at D-Wade. Levein has a strong working relationship with the Bulls front office, he can get Deng to sign off on the deal and get him to stay when his contract expires.

So I see a line-up of Hawes, JT, Deng, Martin paired with next year and maybe even the year afters #1 at the point. The Kings have Thomas and two #1’s to use to move up in the draft- don’t discredit the 8.5 mill owed K-9.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Dec 11, 2008 10:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hell no @ Deng

Hell fucking no & way @ Deng!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's being miss used.

The Bulls have too many similar players. The quagmire at the two/three is killing that team. Deng plays great defense, he rebounds and he is a tough cover.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Dec 11, 2008 10:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chicago can keep him for that type of money

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm convinced that Petrie wants an athletic three with the money he's going to have.

So tell me who you think fits his mold better. I’m not being a smart ass, throw out some names.

Joe Johnson- multi-positional- passer- shooter.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Dec 11, 2008 10:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd really like to go along with you

But I think the KIngs have quite a collection of young talent. I’d rather see them sit on the money, and be a wise spending team as opposed to a free spending team that gets stuck with unwanted contracts (see Thomas, Kenny).

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 12, 2008 10:08 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see Maggette, dubs

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Dec 12, 2008 1:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree

Only because of the money as I like him as a player. He could be a nice complement to Martin. He’s just getting paid too much.

It would a funny situation if Levien doesn’t want him in Sac because of his contract when he is the one that got it for him in the first place.

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 11, 2008 10:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No doubt

and I’m pretty sure that one way or another, the Kings are going to have to overpay someone to play in Sac. I just don’t think Deng is the player who could get us to the next level. Again, I think he complements Kevin in a nice way, I just think the price tag is a little high. I wouldn’t hate it if he becomes a King though. I trust GP to build a nice team in the next couple years

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 11, 2008 11:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the real problem is

We need to stop paying $6 million a year on mediocre, mid-level talent like Beno, Moore, etc. Pay them $2-4 milion or less or $8 million or more.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 11, 2008 11:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A lot has changed since then

Miller is not having a middle-of-the-pack center season, so he’s even more overpaid then you suggested.

Beno has been, all in all, a bust, although he has improved as of late. He’s overpaid when you consider there are a lot of cheaper point guards out there who are better or about as good.

Martin has to prove he can stay healthy, first of all, and carve out an impact as an all-around player and crunch time performer.

Moore is worth less than he was last year.

Salmons is worth the money we are paying him – IF he can improve his ability to get shots within the offense and pass more.

On the plus side is the development of Hawes and strong showing of JT.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 12, 2008 8:37 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with each of your statements,

though I think that Salmons is better than fair value right now.

None of this changes the fact that K9(woof!), B-Jax and S.Williams are still the most overpaid players for what they bring to the team (once ’Reef is off the books). The gap between them and Miller/Moore has certainly narrowed, however.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 12, 2008 1:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When does SAR come off the books?

I thought it was Nov of this year.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 12, 2008 1:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought it was last week

I also thought that I was going to get laid last week, but that didn’t happen either. But this week was better, so maybe we’ll get some news on ’Reef soon, too.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 12, 2008 1:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the

team can apply for the cap relief at the one year mark. No idea how long the approval process takes or if we even applied yet.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Dec 12, 2008 2:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not?

I gave the link and that’s what it says:

There is a waiting period of one year following the injury or illness before a team can apply for this salary cap relief.

Have you seen any news on the team’s application? I haven’t.

I hope they’ve applied and it just hasn’t been reported, but I do know that it hasn’t been approved yet, and I can’t find anywhere that tells how long it will take for the NBA to act.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Dec 12, 2008 6:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought

teams could back-date it (or try) to the last date the player was actually effectively able to play…
something like that, lok at the things they’re saying about Mobley’s $$ in NY

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Dec 13, 2008 11:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

The 1 year waiting period is back-dated to the last game the player played because of his injury. After the waiting period, which in SAR’s case was in Nov., the team can apply for injury retirement. Since the teams base salary isn’t determined until the end of the season, there is no rush to determine his eligability as far as Luxury Tax is concerned.. But, until a determination of the claim is made, his roster spot can not be usedl.

So, the question is “How long will the league take to make their determineation?” on the claim.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 5:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think one way you could tell

Is if the Kings need to open up a roster spot, then they’ll get around to doing the paperwork. (I Imagine it’s done, but it takes time with the league to get done. That’s probably why it hasn’t been announced.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 13, 2008 8:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess your daughter is like most teenage girls

and can be depended on to take no interest in her father’s career/hobbies.

by furious.d on Dec 12, 2008 4:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree on Salmons

and he can be even more valuable if he addresses his flaws.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 12, 2008 3:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

Every player in the NBA would be more valuable if they addressed their flaws, don’t you think?

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 12, 2008 4:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it's a question

of how much upside there is based on raw talent. Some guys can fix their flaws and they still won’t get a lot better. I think Salmons can.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 13, 2008 7:17 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now, that's a more accurate statement

and I agree completely. Salmons has a little more room to become a better player

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 13, 2008 1:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not for nothin'

The three teams you mentioned (Portland, Utah, & San Antonio) found their success with Franchise Top 6 Draft Picks.

There are obviously other factors, but:

  • Where’s Utah without Deron Williams (3)?
  • Where’s Portland without Aldridge (2)/Roy (6)/Oden (1)?
  • Where’s San Antonio without Duncan (1)?
  • In fact, where’s Cleveland without LeBron (1), or Orlando without Howard (1)?

Again, there are many other factors involved in putting together a winner (Minny only had what, one real shot with KG?), but to ignore the driving factor hurts your argument. The flip side is that there are plenty of Top 6 “busts” (i.e. players who didn’t become Franchise guys), but there are even fewer examples of Franchise guys drafted low.

by smgmatt on Dec 12, 2008 8:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Well said

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 12, 2008 10:11 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with your point sg

and you say in bold that there are other factors, but for championship teams in the last decade players acquired via trade, free agency, and outside of the lottery have been paramount (i.e. not simply “other factors”) to success. So the argument could just as easily be made: [apparently i don’t know how to make bullets]

- Where are the Spurs without Avery Johnson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli?
- Where are the 2000-2002 Lakers without Shaq?
- Where are the 2004 Pistons without Wallace, Wallace, Billups, Hamilton, and Prince?
- Where are the 2006 Heat without Shaq?
- Where are the 2008 Celtics without Garnett and Allen?

To boot, I would love for the Kings to be as exciting as Portalnd, Utah, Cleveland, and Orlando are in 2009, but none of those teams has reached the highest level yet.

Sorry if I’m being a dick, but this is all just to make a point that I’m sure you already know to be true:

A top 6 or 3 or 1 pick is nowhere near a guaranteed franchise player, and having a franchise player is nowhere near a guaranteed ring.

All that said, I wouldn’t mind coming away with the top pick next year.

by furious.d on Dec 12, 2008 5:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No teams wont give up first round picks for more expiring contracts

There will be a lot of teams vying for the 2010 FA class, but there is probably only about 6 teams truly in contention for the “big 3”, and if Amare comes out, theyre might be 8 in play total. The Kings will be left out of that equation no matter how it shapes up.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As far as I can tell JJ

There will be close to, right now, 2/3 of the league in play for the 2010 FA class. That’s going to make any value for an expiring contract low. The Kings might be wise to play for the 2011 or 2012 FA class, or simply, ignore it all together. (That’s what I’m voting for.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's the link to

DX sorry.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 11, 2008 10:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know

But you’re still looking at half the damn league. A lot of teams WANT to be part of 2010.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 12, 2008 10:12 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disclaimer

I’m not proposing trading for Amare. I actually disagree with the idea presented by PhutureKings. I’m just pointing out (probably the obvious) that a future trade to get a player who will take us to the next level will cost us one of these kids that the Kings are trying to develop. Who will it be? Depends on who we get.

This kind of trade is worth discussing because I don’t think the Kings have a great chance of being big time players in the ’10 free agent craziness not because of the money but because of the market

by eduardo_m7 on Dec 11, 2008 8:58 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does anyone trade that type of player in their prime?

I think the answer to your question is, when we have built a strong contender, then it’s worth your wild to trade youth for that final piece that takes you to the top.

It takes 2 or 3 stars and a whole bunch of very good role players to take you to the finals. We need to continue to acquire rookies and develop them into stars and good role players. and then we can start to look for that final piece.

You wouldn’t sell your brand new tire for a bigger horsepower engine, and then take it out to a race. You build from the ground up or you don’t survive.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 12, 2008 12:37 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Boston & Detroit & Miami

There is more than one way to win a ‘Ship. Look at Boston. Miami & Detroit. Each of them did it differently. Boston traded half its team to get 2 all-stars to put w/ Paul Pierce. Miami traded some youth, expiring contracts, etc. to get Shaq to play w/ D-Wade (who was a top-5 draft pick). Detroit had no prolific stars, but rather a truly complete team. Looking back, one would argue that D-Town in fact had stars, they just weren’t getting the hype they deserved until after the Championship.

My point is, there is more than one route to the Promised Land (and a lot of luck involved). So, don’t get too entrenched in the “this is the way it is done” mindset.

The Kings have options, sure. But, they also have challenges such as being in a small market and not having a true all-star already on the team, however, they also have the Maloofs as owners, who can wine & dine players and give them a free pass into the Playboy Club at the Palms. Don’t underestimate the appeal of working for fun bosses. Besides, players like Boozer & Brand have demonstrated that an all-star caliber player will leave his current team to chase the money.

Having said all that, I think it is imperative to trade for an all-star player before his contract is up so that the Kings can offer more money than anyone else (via the previously mentioned Bird Rights). Unfortunately, that means we’ll have to give up some of our beloved core, and then lament that fact when they’re kicking our butts 7 years down the road (how do you think the hangover in Beantown is going to feel when KG et. al. retire in 2 years and Al Jefferson is going postal on the Celtics?).

by PhutureKings on Dec 12, 2008 9:26 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One Problem...
…players like Boozer & Brand have demonstrated that an all-star caliber player will leave his current team to chase the money.

These were not MAX players, so other teams could offer more. The 2010 FAs that everyone is drooling over will all be getting MAX deals, so the team that has their Bird Rights will be the team they go to if they’re “chasing the money”.

by smgmatt on Dec 12, 2008 9:43 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We have a different idea of players in their prime

Ray Allen is 33, KG is 32 and Pierce is 32 and they have a combined years in the NBA of 37. Shaq is 35. If you want to build a contender for 2 or 3 years, you could go with the over 30 crowd.

I’d rather build thru the draft, develop our own contender, and Then & only Then trade for the piece to make you a champion. You can trade away your youth to get Boozer or some other star and pay him $20M for the next 5 years, but who’s he going to play with to bring you a champianship. Who’s left after you trade away the youth, a bunch of average MLE?

We have 4 talented rookies and some good young vets, and 3 more 1st rounders before 2010. Our only major weakness right now is Starting PF which can be filled without a super star, and without sacraficing our youth movement. With only a little improvement by the rookies, we can be a playoff contender next year, and then we can make moves to get to the division final and beat the lakers.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 12, 2008 10:04 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

I agree about the youth movement, cuz I think Greene JT and Shawes are a real core. I think Martin is also part of that core, and I think Garcia is a major piece most young teams don’t even have the luxury of (Minnesota, OKC, Memphis to name a few—Portland is a rare young team that does).

I think people need to back off the youth (particularly an argument for Luol Deng—no thanks) and let Greene, JT and Shawes develop properly, and let them take this team back. I still think this team is a quality PG short of being a strong team in 2 years, and that’s just a personal opinion.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 12, 2008 10:14 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Impact player or "team' philosophy?

Thats one of the questions. Do we need a ‘Guy’?

Detroit won a few championships without a real ‘go to’ impact player on two versions of thier teams over the last few decades playing real team ball. They kept running ‘very good’ players at you inwaves and playing excellent team D. It can be done.

If you think we do need that impact guy – can we get one of those to come to SAC via FAgency?

maybe, I don’t know….

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Dec 12, 2008 11:09 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

unfortunately, the Pistons are the exception

not the rule and a great collection of coaching (Carlisle, Brown) – this team even flubbed the #2 pick in one of the strongest drafts in memory. They lost their coach and lost their mojo and then poof! they were down – where they are winding down with more promise then proof they mimic an old tire – ineffectively patched whle they continue to lose tread as the lose air.

The rest of the champions have star power to spare. I agree the Kings need at least one healthy reliable impact player, probably two.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 12, 2008 9:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's with everyone's assumption the 4 is the problem?

I’m so confused. People in various threads are saying the first issue we need to solve is power forward. Time is going to answer the question about power forward; time to see how JT develops. I think most people on these boards would agree its plausible, maybe even likely, JT will be a starting quality PF in the league.

If that’s the case, why would we spend resources now to have other options? If we bring in more potential PFs, then they will need to be developed or will take time from JT.

We have much more pressing concerns than 4, where you already have a reasonable plan. The big personnel question is, is Beno good enough to be a starting PG for a good team? Other than that people just need to be patient.

Probably JT and Hawes are a fraction as good now as they will be in two years. Martin will still probably be as good. Beno is a question; Salmons you pretty much know what you have. Let these guys grow, let our bench guys grow, I don’t think you can rule out a scenario yet that our starting PG in two years starts the game on the bench right now, Bobby Brown. We’re going to bring in some more talent in June and have cash on hand soon. Petrie is doing a great job finding and developing assets, let’s be patient while they grow.

by ForThree on Dec 12, 2008 1:01 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

JT not starter quality yet

He’s a young energetic guy, but has shown very little of the offensive and defensive skill that Spencer has. Most here believe he can develop them in time but that is still to be proven and the same goes for Greene. In the mean time we are weakest at PF, especially on the offensive side. So, if we can improve at that position now, we’ll have our starter and a young reserve. Then if JT wins the starting job so much the better.

Until JT learns to use both hands, use the backboard, drive to the basket, and hit his jumper, all on a consistant basis, PF is our weak spot. We can get double digit scoring from our centers and guards, and 20 pts out of Salmons, Garcia & Martin, but no one at the PF can score consistantly in double figures.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 12, 2008 1:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with ForThree

It may be our weak spot NOW, but the idea of going out and actively looking to shore up that position is nuts, IMO. I think you have to assume Petrie’s found our future PF until such time as it’s obvious that JT will not be that guy…then you shop for that position. The guy is 22 games into his pro career, for pete’s sake.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Dec 12, 2008 2:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hawes and JT need a quality sub

I’d like to see a better third option in the future. Miller is declining, and there are no other answers on the current roster. Throw in a third young quality big to grow with while getting rid of some of the deadwood, and you have the makings of something special.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 12, 2008 4:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I figure that is what

Houston’s pick is for. Draft an enforcer/nuts and bolts guy to come off the bench. Carl Landry kind of guy.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Dec 12, 2008 6:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am assuming

You mean a guy like Spreights or Hickson from thje last draft. Then you just have to hope they turn out better than Shelden.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 13, 2008 7:20 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think the 4

I think the 5 – as I’m not sure Hawes and JT aren’t both 4s who can play the 5.

Think Thabeet??

He could be a real stopper in the middle, Hawes is a scorer, JT is…well, we’ll see, he’s promising.

Build from the interior out.

Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !

by lietothegirls on Dec 12, 2008 2:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with Pook(as usual) and ForThree

There is no need for us to anything drastic right now. Bobby Brown “could” be the answer at the 1 and for the time Beno is not the reason we are not winning right now. Unless our season miraculously turns around we are going to be in a good position re the lottery and I think we have 2 first round picks besides. At some point trading some of our kids (current or to be drafted) is probably going to happen but now is not the time.

We really don’t know what we have yet but i’m of the opinion that our kids look to be a solid foundation. We’ll have a much better idea of what we have by the end of the season and by the end of the season both Brad and K9 (woof) are going to be expiring contacts going forward into the 90-10 season and Mikki will be a 2 mil buyout. There will be a lot more flexability next season and there is no reason to spend the money we are going to have just to fill the roster.

Look what the dubs did this summer. After BD opted out they panicked and overpaid for Corey Magette who is not fitting in their system at all and is now pretty much untradable. They also extended SJax for no good reason and now they have few options and no cap flexability.

Last thing, most of the trades that happen are unanticipated but I still have faith in GP. I’m pretty sure he has a clear plan of how he wants this team to look and I’m willing to trust him (not that I have any choice) to bring in the players that will bring the plan to fruition.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Dec 12, 2008 1:42 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Completely agree

I don’t think there is a drastic need to be filled on the roster currently, and considering our looming draft picks and cap space I think you can ride it out with the existing talent.

Obviously, if a no-brainer deal comes along for Petrie, he should do what he needs to do. But it wouldn’t bother me at all if he’s just an observer for the time being.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Dec 12, 2008 2:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is no cap space in 09

So, unless we do trade some of our vets, there is nothing that GP can do but play with the same team we have plus 2 more rookies and maybe another MLE. I perfer not to watch 2 years of this kind of basketball. Which is exactly what we’ll get unless the rookies make major improvements in their game. Because the vets aren’t getting better.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 12, 2008 4:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

Generally that’s what rookies do – especially rookies drafted by Geoff Petrie.

See:
Martin, Kevin
Garcia, Francisco
Hawes, Spencer.

"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.

by otis29 on Dec 12, 2008 4:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because he doesn't belong on that list

You’re going to pick at one mistake?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Dec 13, 2008 9:50 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well..

Tell us how much better will this years rookies be next year.

Will Greene be a starter at SF or a 10 mpg reserve and how many pts, reb, & assists will he get.

Will Brown be able to fill our reserve PG needs, or will he even be around since next year is a player option?

Will JT develop his offense & defense to be that 20/10 starting PF we need?

And, will any of the new draft choices be able to contribute or will they end up on the bench like Greene has this year?

I’m not as sure as you, so maybe you can reassure me.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 6:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Greene is barely 20

How much contribution were you expecting? Hawes, Thompson, Brown and Greene have all exceeded (my) expectations for the first quarter of the season. What were you expecting?

How sure is Portland about Oden or Bayless? Milwaukee about Alexander? Memphis about Conley? Has the microwave nature of this society now impacted NBA rookies, where they are given no time to develop? Should we not have then waived Spencer Hawes before Christmas last year?

I’m not sure about any of the Kings young guns either, but I sure like what I’ve seen so far.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 13, 2008 6:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You missed my point

I agree with everything you said. My comment was to Otis, that we can’t simply rely on the rookies to be substantially better to improve the team next year.

The whole discussion started over whether we needed to make trades. And, I contend that if we don’t make some kind of move, we’ll basicly be stuck with the same roster next year plus the draft choices. Our base salary next summer makes 09 FA acquisions impossible. Which only leaves trades or exercising our MLE, so why not start looking at trades this year.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 6:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

Though a “big” trade might be easier to execute next year, once Miller and Thomas are expiring-to-be contracts.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 13, 2008 8:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We have to look to the future, the present is too painful. But we are not alone.

OKC Thunder has Durant, Green and Westbrook a nice nucleus and they will “out percentage” everyone come June’s lottery order. But, no coach/no system to make it happen. Look at D’Antoni in New York, Nate McMillian in Portland, that will keep those teams from becoming the LA Clippers.

I am worried that NBA-wise this season shows signs of the last obvious scramble for lottery order (the Durant/Oden sweepstakes) when the post All-Star break begins.

by betweentheeyes on Dec 13, 2008 11:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point

Although that’s 14 months and 1 1/2 seasons from now, that’s a long time to have to watch this kind of basketball. I’d rather us this years expiring, picks, or Salmons, to get something going this year.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 14, 2008 4:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right if your talking January 2009

I don ‘t know when (or maybe even if) Shariff’s cap space relief hits the books. However, I think Mikki should be a pretty tradeable piece with his 2 mil buyout. If you are talking about the 09-10 season then Brad and K9 (woof) are expiring contracts, Bjax,Sheldon and QD are off the books unless resigned for less and Mikki is either traded or bought out.

So by the trade deadline early 2010 we are very possibly in a totally different position with cap space. With regard with the vets I’m guessing your talking particularly talking about Brad and Mikki. John Salmons (love him or hate him) has done more than expected this season in my view, I don’t think we have seen enough of Beno in particular but also kevin and Cisco.

I’m starting to get concerned about Kevin’s durability but when he gets healthy I don’t see either he or Cisco regressing or plateauing at this point.

My point is that there will be undoubtedly be trades but that there is no good reason to make them out of desperation or to pick up a few more wins this season.

Bottom line is I like our kids and potential lottery/first round drafts and I do think beginning this summer we will have more cap space with more to come as the next season progresses.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Dec 12, 2008 4:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Zero cap space in 09

Our salary for 09, not including BJax, SAR, Shelden, Douby & with $2M buy out for Moore is currently $55.9M. So with a salary cap of between $60M-$61M we will only have $4M-$5M in cap space, and that’s before we add in the cost of any rookies we sign. Which means we can sign someone to another MLE and go over the salary cap. But, with 7000 seat going unfilled, don’t expect the Maloofs to spent it.

Without trading Miller or K9 this year for a expiring this year, we’ll have no chance in getting involved in the 09 FA market. So that means or roster will consist of Miller, K9, Martin, Salmons, Garcia,Beno, Hawes, JT, Green, and Brown assuming he doesn’t opt out of his contract. Then add the new draft choices.

So, unless we plan to play K9, we’re going to need another PF or Center. Or, we can keep Mikki. I myself would prefer not to keep Mikki for $6M or play K9 at PF. Also, unless we end up with a top 3 draft pick which I seriously doubt, we won’t get a quality PF, and if did get luck in the lottory and got our PF we’d be out of the running for a top PG.

Pick your poison; pay Mikki $6M, play K9, make a trade, or cross your fingers and hope you get lucky in the draft. CHOOSE

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 2:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's my choice

Hawes – 34mpg
JT – 32mpg
Brad Miller (he’s still here in your scenario) – 20mpg
Some random big dork for 1mil a year – 8mpg
K9 for injury insurance because you have to

by ForThree on Dec 13, 2008 12:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm talking August 09

I’ve already excluded Shariff’s salary, and Shelden’s, Douby’s, BJax’s, and included a buy out of Mikki. Our base salary will be $55.9M without the 09 draft picks. So, there will be no cap space. Shelden might be resigned, but probably not Douby. But it will require going over the salary cap which we can do because of his Bird Rights.

Without a trade for an expiring this year, the only new players we will be able to add next summer will be the draft choices and a player using or MLE exemption. Which means all of our needs will need to be filled by the draft including a backup for Martin.

As has been pointed out many times here, expiring contracts in 2010 won’t bring us a Super Star. With all the competition that year, we’ll more than likely get a 2nd tier star at an inflated price. Our best chance of adding an important piece without overpaying, is by being active in the 09 FA market and that means trading for an expiring this year.

Then by the trade deadline in Feb 2010, we’ll be force to resign Salmons or trade him because of the ETO in his contract. Which he is sure to exercise, because he’s scheduled to make less then this years MLE, and he’ll be looking for a longer contract for some financial security.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 6:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You might want to add to your teams you are a fan of list

if you’re not willing to wait two years for this team. We’re not going going to trade our over-priced, mostly role-player veterans for young or old guys that are all of the sudden going to make us good, the odds of that are infintesimal. Trading the old guys means, cap space maybe or extra PT for guys or a draft pick, its not going to suddenly make us good.

I think you can count on, we’ll not be real good this year and might win 25 games. You aren’t signing a FA this summer that is going to be a 20 game improvement. If we are really fortunate, we’ll be decent and getting better next year. The year after is the best case scenario for being legitimately good.

by ForThree on Dec 13, 2008 12:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't expect us to be a contender for 3 years

That doesn’t mean we cant get better every year. I’m just no ready to throw all my eggs in one basket by relying on the rookie development to be the sole source of our improvement.

Trading the old guys means, cap space maybe or extra PT for guys or a draft pick, its not going to suddenly make us good.

It should make us better than if we continue to play with the old guys.

You aren’t signing a FA this summer that is going to be a 20 game improvement. If we are really fortunate, we’ll be decent and getting better next year. The year after is the best case scenario for being legitimately good.

If we don’t trade one of the old guys for an expiring this year, we won’t have cap space for a FA next summer. And, if we can’t get a FA that’s going to make a major improvement, what makes you think 2010 will be any better. Because of the raises the players get, every year we wait cuts into the cap space the old guys contract offer.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Dec 13, 2008 7:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Sactown Royalty, the best community of Sacramento Kings fans in the universe. That's not my opinion; it's scientific fact.
Start posting about the Kings »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Eastern_logs_small
Can we trade with Utah already please?
Farworld_water_small
Putting the "Build" in "Rebuilding"
Eastern_logs_small
Let's Lighten Up a Little: Nickname Thread Part 1
3745e0cf-0882-4430-9b66-edee27c412afnews
Post-Draft Team Salaries
Images_small
Time You Realize Excellence at Kahn's Expense

Recent FanPosts

Untitled_small
Patience is key
Petey_small
Is Marion a possibility?
Jason-thompson_small
Kings 09-10 Season
Eastern_logs_small
Nickname Thread Part 3 - Winners!
Eastern_logs_small
Nickname Thread Part 2: Run-off Thread for Tyreke Evans
174136_550x550_mb_art_r0_small
Rubio Staying in Spain
Small
Should We Try To Sign Hedo ?

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

Local Sponsors


Editor

Ziller-laser_small Ziller

Joe_kleine_small section214

Associate Editor

Coachie_small rbiegler

Authors

Banana_small Exhibit G

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports