And All for the Want of a Horseshoe Nail
Know when I knew Theus wouldn't last through this season? Saturday. But not when the Kings were getting drubbed by Zach Randolph. Earlier Saturday, during the Georgetown-Memphis game, when I saw Greg Monroe dropping passes out of the high post like a junior Chris Webber and thought "God I wish the Kings had this guy. This is the quintessential Petrie player" and I subsequently wondered what exactly would he be doing on the Kings? Standing in the high-post watching John Salmons dribble for 23 seconds before receiving a handoff in just enough time to let off an errant jump shot?
Petrie has continued to draft his type of players, versatile, sweet shooting, solid passing guys that can execute his offensive vision with sophistication. But he has done so for a coach who I don't think understands the basic concept of any offensive system, let alone one with the subtleties of the Princeton. Which is why all this talk of eventually bringing in an Avery Johnson is so silly. Petrie is at his most savvy selecting offensively minded players. Kids with mental as well as physical tools. And we're as a fan base blessed by this, without Petrie we'd end up with a roster of Brandan Wright's and Mouhamed Saer Sene's. Petrie will never change his spots, and he shouldn't.
And Theus, ultimately, I think lacks the basketball sophistication to fully understand the value of said spots. He's a street smart, charismatic guy, a good leader, ingratiating with the media, and the reality is this roster would be good for 20 wins with a coaching staff of Bob Knight, Chuck Daly, Tex Winter and the ghost of Pete Newell. But Petrie needs someone who can appreciate the substantive presence of Pete Carril. And Theus is by all appearances a guy enamored with appearances. And that fundamental philosophical difference will not change no matter how healthy the roster, how high the lottery pick.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Appreciating the substansive presence of Pete Carill

This guy would fit that description.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Dec 15, 2008 8:35 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Its time to make like Grover Cleveland.
And serve your second non consecutive term here in Sacramento.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
by moproblemz on Dec 15, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Nice reference!
though no one got it
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 15, 2008 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
No one?
I got it. Big upz MO!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Me too
nice one.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Dec 15, 2008 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but...
Terrence Howard seems like an unproven choice for an NBA head-coaching job, don’t you think?
by PhutureKings on Dec 15, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
He's preparing for the Crane Technique
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
The disconnect
We go around and around about finding the dead fuse in the circuit, about why the team doesn’t light up every night. The team talks about it publicly, at times pointing fingers at each other; the owners point the finger at GP sometimes, sometimes at Theus; Theus points the finger at the players. But I think what you say here, Biegler, has a lot of truth: Petrie has a vision for a contender, Theus has a vision about what kind of basketball his team should play, but by all public measures Vision_Petrie does not equal Vision_Theus. Result: confused owners, confused players, confused fans, generally terrible basketball with the occasional highlight game.
I agree.
I think that for all the grief we have placed on Joe Maloof for opening his yapper, he has a point about Reggie not having a designed system that can withstand injuries. Rick Adelman is gone, he’s certainly not coming back and neither is Pete Carrill. The identity of the Kings needs to rest in the system they play in and not the players in the system. The Kings gifted us as fans with 8 years of not only highly competitive basketball but of masterful, fluid, offensive movement that has left us wanting/needing more. When I see the double high post, I’m thinking…WTF? When I see Salmons dribble out the clock, I can only yell take that guy out of the game because certainly Rick Adelman would never have let that shit go.
Petrie is in a no win situation. The type of player he loves to bring in, the Millers, Divacs, Pejas are highly skilled offensive weapons but there are only a handful of players out there that are both highly skilled offensively and defensively and they get draft in the first 5 picks and they usually get locked up through their prime. The Kings have yet to stumble on to this player, Ron Artest, although skilled defensively, is not a good team offensive player, I hope people understand what I mean by that. The best Petrie can hope for with his system is that either someone develops defensively (John Salmons), a certain type of coach can motivate players to play defense (Larry Brown) or that his team can out score every other team on the planet (Phoenix Suns).
As of now, Theus has yet to distinguish himself at running an effective offensive or defensive system that can withstand any injury to any one, let alone major length of time injury to top of the rotation guys. I think it has more to do with fundamentals being taught and executed night in and night out. I would like point out a few things that I think can help this team improve now, with the same players on the roster.
- Set a proper pick. Now, Mikki Moore has done an admirable job but even he has a flaw to his picks (he weighs 125). The Kings coaches need to go to the tape on this one. Pull up every Tim Duncan and Vlade Divac clip you can and teach these guys how to open your hips up through a pick, driving the defensive player out of the play by turning your body while he is coming around.
- Find the baseline defensively and stop the dribble penetration. This isn’t hard, there is a line on the ground, if you stand with a foot on the line an offensive player has 2 choices, 1) run your ass over or 2) be funnel to the middle of the lane where your friends are waiting for him.
- 6 fouls, everyone gets them, use them, put people on their ass and tell them while their laying there that if they come inside again you’re going to club them again. You might get a technical for this but you get two of those also.
- Find a mixture of players that play well together because their skill sets match-up. Force John Salmons and Beno Udrih to take open three’s, if they continue to refuse, remove them from the game or at least one of them. You cannot have a guard and a small forward that cannot stretch the defense playing at the same time, use Brown with Salmons, Garcia with Udrih, Garcia with Salmons. Miller and Moore together no longer works because neither is aggressive enough on the glass. Stop worrying about what Jason Thompson isn’t great at and focus on what he does extremely well- this dude is a lion, he will average 12 boards a game and half of them will come on the offensive end, who cares if he is slightly raw offensively.
I’ll stop here for now, my 15 month old is taking all the ornaments off the Christmas tree.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Dec 15, 2008 9:08 AM PST reply actions 10 recs
That's awesome JJ (your kid taking the ornaments off the Xmas tree)
Lot’s of excellent stuff in there.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Rec'd
For dual tasking brilliance and a 15 month old.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
That's what baby gates and playpens are for.
Not the kid. The tree.
Let's go home.-Kevin Martin
by LeaguePassAddict on Dec 15, 2008 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
JJ ........a thing of beauty
+1+1.+1 to all of it. I am so tired of seeing this wimpy little reach in/over or wrist grab/bump fouls. Remember how Detroit used to play? Sheldon ought to be out there every night putting people on the FLOOR!
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Wow, we really do suck!
Especially since we were playing the Knicks on Saturday and Zach Randolph somehow managed to spank us even though his team was playing the Rockets.
I think you mean Al Harrington, rbiegler
www.mancancook.net
rbiegler is right on the money with this
It’s a corollary to the wisdom of “You are what you are”. Petrie is what he is. His pick-ups will be best suited for a certain type of system. Maloofs, let him find the best coach for that system.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Solid points
I agree with your sentiments that Theus just is not a good fit for a GM like Petrie. Honestly though, what NBA team WOULD he be a good fit for? I think he is one of those coaches just best suited to the NCAA style. He is a nice face to put on a college organization and a great recruiter with that charisma and charm. He has a good level of knowledge of the game as a former NBA player, and probably is great at teaching young kids the basics. I just haven’t seen anything really intriguing or creative that he has done during his stretch here in Sacramento that makes me believe that he has the chops for the NBA game.
The question I have a this point is whether or not we can find someone who is able to take these players that Petrie loves so much offensively, and help turn them into more complete players. That is the reason I am opposed to another run with Eddie Jordan, who had his teams scoring a lot of points, but were completely unable to defense. We need someone that can balance that offensive prowess with a more tough-minded defensive philosophy. We had some years under Adelman where we were able to do that, but haven’t since.
I'm not sure...
…that Petrie’s philosophy includes anything other than maybe a league-average defense. My guess is you run a Princeton style offense and Petrie will find you a few perimeter guys (like the first incarnation of BJax or a Christie) that can defend the three-point shot and make a few themselves. Then you score, score and score some more.
The one difference for the Kings from five or six years ago is Vlade, IMO. The guy did what Brad does facilitating the offense, but he could also bang with the bigger centers of the league and protect the basket.
So I’m cool with EJ coming back – hopefully Petrie has found or will find the post defender this team needs . Some of this is riding on Spencer’s shoulders – he clearly has some shot-blocking capabilities, but can he become the passer the offense needs and can he bulk up and bang with the bigger centers in the league?
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
People forget how much of a banger Vlade and Webb were
Because they were so “remembered” for thier passing. But both guys could bang in the post like Shaq and Duncan could, but to a lesser extent.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
True
I shouldn’t exclude C-Webb from the conversation. Webber would get beat on the dribble-drive to no end, but he was a very good post defender.
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
Your both right
Obviously a team that Petrie is going to try to put together is not going to be a defensive grind-it-out sort of team. The years that we balanced our offensive prowess with improved team defense and some solid defensive role-players were not coincidentally the years we were competing at the highest level.
Obviously a coach can only do so much. Some players just have the mindset and skillset defensively, and others don’t. Coaches are dependent on what players they are given to work with. I am just hoping there is some coach out there that could come in and maximize what defensive potential our young players have already shown that they have, while still being able to help them develop offensively. Teaching is going to be an important part for whoever is the next coach since we are already young, and are only going to get younger over the next couple years.
I also think the fact that the team led the league in pt differential
Meant that perhaps the way we judge defense, and the way the Kings played it, needs to be understood some.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Indeed.
The Kings could always get a stop or two- something that other teams could not against them. I wish that Martin would learn that move of Christie’s where he would come up on his man and then jump backwards and intercept the entry pass, classic DC.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Good call
I always appreciated DC. Perhaps it’s time to repost/think my greatest 20 moments in Kings history.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
THABEET
???
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 15, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
not only was Vlade a banger but after he banged he was a world class flopper
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Boo'd for obvious flopping comment
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
maybe he was a world class bouncer
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
LOL
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I just got an IM from Stu Jackson
Bluejohn you will be fined for flopping comments under the new NBA league policy.
by betweentheeyes on Dec 15, 2008 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for the utter hilarity that is Stu Jackson
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I Think...
I Think the combo of J-Shock & Hawes in the paint will be suficient for GP’s system. Hawes gets those blocks, plays decent D and has a developing offensive arsenal. Meanwhile, JT has the soft hands, athleticism and passing ability that the high post game requires. It’s not all wrapped up in one player, but they’re both good enough to develop into what the system needs. Together J-Shock & Hawes will manage to play good enouh D while distributing the ball, recognizing plays and getting us plenty of offense.
The two of them in a high-tempo game can easily penetrate (especially if moving together or trailing for a finish) in a faster-paced system and finish strong, or pass out to the perimeter if need be. The threat of Martin waiting on the outside will keep the opposing team’s D from collapsing too much on our bigs. Meanwhile, Shock & Hawes are able to draw the D out of the interior (due to their decent mid-range) when appropriate, to clear the lane for a Martin slice to the hoop. Add Garcia playing some decent D and hitting some shots. Then, put an uber-athletic Greene, who is big for his position in the line-up, and the Kings of the future are kind of hard to game-plan against. If we can add a PG that is capable of distributing better, initiating plays, and locking up his guy, we’ll be pretty solid.
Just gonna take time. But, the players that are needed to play Petrie’s entertaining style are beginning to emerge. They just need time and a few more pieces to compete the project.
What I am liking is the versatility. Depending on trades, etc., we can get at least two quality players this off-season, in the draft & free agency. We can use one for a PG and the other for another Big Man, if we want to. For example, say we luck out and get a top-2 draft pick. It’s either Rubio or Griffin — and either one would be great! Then, add what we’re lacking in free agency or a trade.
Imagine in a few years: Hawes, Griffin, (the versatility of) J-Shock (allows you to play him at SF), Martin & a decent PG (via free agent or trade). That frountcourt is monstrous enough to play against big teams, yet athletic enough to go against small-ballers. The bench then brings in Brown, Garcia, Greene & our Houston 1st rounder and our 2010 first rounder.
Or, perhaps this: Hawes, J-Shock, Greene, Martin & Rubio. We’re still big, given Greene’s size at SF, still athletic, plus, the Kings have a guy at PG who is truly remarkable at finding open guys and creating plays. And that’s not including our draft picks or free agent signings!
Granted this all assumes a best-case-scenario in this year’s draft and a few trades going through, but the point is, I believe we’re on our way. We got some good pieces and the possibilities are not unrealistic that the Kings could assemble a very competitive squad that will be able to play together long-term with a lot of success.
In fact, I’m almost becoming addicted to rebuilding mode. It allows us fans to dream of all the combinations and possibilities. When you cheer for a squad like the Lakers, Celts (or even Portland), you know not much is going to change. Your options are limited: hope the team wins it all, or wait for the opportunity to do it again next year.
Embrace the Rebuild. It will be over before you know it, and then, all we get to do is sit-back, or stand-up, and shout our heads off as we wildly root for our guys to kill the opposing team!
by PhutureKings on Dec 15, 2008 1:24 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Stop with the Rubio hopes
Not coming out next year (2010)
Especially since he’s going to miss a lot of this season looks like
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 15, 2008 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
fine - dare to dream
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 16, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions

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