Forward to the Past
by Tom Ziller on Dec 27, 2008 6:49 AM PST
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PrintRemember in the preseason, when Jason Thompson had a seizure every time he touched the ball on offense in anything other than a fast break or putback? In my season preview on Shock, I noted his lack of patience and his mucky, sloppy attack. Then, the regular season happened. Thompson came out scorching. All those fears about how long it'd take Thompson to learn how to play against NBA defenders subsided.
Well, it looks like the issue was just tabled for a month. Now, Thompson is a bit of a disaster with the ball. His minutes have been less consistent since Miller, Moore and Garcia all got back on the court. His game-to-game rebounding figures are down, and Kenny Natt is proving to be much more punishing upon defensive miscues than Reggie Theus ever had been. (Thompson never returned to the game after allowing that Joey Graham baseline dunk in the fourth. Immediately yanked.)
So we're in purgatory. We know Thompson can play smart basketball within his own body. We were all witnesses. But that's all ended, and we're back to Square One. We're waiting for the truth to come back, and we don't have much patience right now.
It's a completely different situation with Spencer Hawes, though: he is playing smart on offense for the most part. He is getting good looks. He isn't racking up turnovers. He's doing fine. ... But he can't buy a bucket with plastic and a smile. Credit is tight! Those jumpers and lay-ups will fall, as they did before. I honestly wish Hawes would be a touch less patient, but if he keeps up what he has done all season, he'll end up in the good graces of the world.
And finally, free Donté Greene. Please. I love Bobby Jackson -- and he kept the Kings in this one, to be honest. But Bobby is the shortest player on the team. And he is playing every single minute at back-up shooting guard. The defensive problems with the Kings run deep. But Jackson at two-guard is a huge, huge problem on that end. I'm not requesting that Jackson stick on the bench -- but he doesn't always have to play alongside Bobby Brown. Play Jackson at the point a little, and let Greene soak up a few two-guard minutes to go with his now rare small forward burn. (And come on, if D.G. can't get a minute while Kevin Martin remains out ...)
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Its all about the rotation.
I know this sounds crazy but I still think that Thompson needs to start with Miller and Hawes needs to come off the bench. Hawes is lost with Salmons and his dribble out the clock offense, he needs to be the offensive focal point when he’s in the game and he needs to be surrounded by shooters- Garcia, Brown, Greené. Udrih and Salmons are killing this team by not shooting the three- if I were coaching against the Kings I don’t think I would play anything but zone defense. At least Beno, when he isn’t turning the ball over at an alarming rate, uses his screens and keeps his teammates involved. Watching Salmons, even when he is on, has become very tiresome. Pete Carril must be rolling over in his lazy-boy watching Salmons- which might be why the Salmons trade talk has heated up since his visit.
IMO, Thompsons impatience is in large due to him trying to earn his minutes by producing while he is in. When afforded the luxury of starting, Thompson was calmer, focused on rebounds and put backs and didn’t seem to be looking over his shoulder the whole time he was in. A rotation with Thompson cleaning the glass, working the baseline and occasionally getting entry passes in the post while Miller is in the game makes sense to me. When Hawes comes into the game he can initially play the perimeter a la Brad Miller, establish his outside shot and then when Thompson goes to the bench for Moore, Hawes can slide down inside and show off his post game. I wouldn’t mind a starting line-up of Hawes and Thompson but I think keeping Millers minutes up also keep his trade value up.
The current “Ivory Tower” line-up isn’t working. The Kings have switched coaches but left the same rotation in place and lost at an alarming rate. Wise up Natt, Theus got fired doing the identical thing that you are doing. Who gives a shit if the guy (Theus) answered his cell phone in the middle of practice- his system sucked, his defense sucked, his rotations sucked and then the players stopped listening, so why would you continue on his legacy of ineptness. Can we please change up the line-up/rotation and hire a new coach…now. Give Eddy Jordan or Avery Johnson a call and a chance to work through a wash of a season with the young nucleus that will be here for the foreseeable future while assessing their abilities first hand. Wasting our time with a lame duck intern coach is doing nothing but racking up losses and slowing the long term development of the Kings young players.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Dec 27, 2008 9:28 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
first off, nice analysis Z and Jham
rec’d and rec’d.
The rotation isn’t working. Some of that has to do with the unsure appearance (next game, next month) of “the team’s best player”. The current offense caters to the next in line “team’s best player”, who scores and defends and is leading the team, so he does what he does. No other leader on the floor is apparent.
So Coachie may have dyspepsia but Kenny Natt, interim coach, has to grab the reins of a moving horse donkey in mid-stream, some continuity is part of the nature of this beast.
Growth is slow and painful for the “future of the Kings”, as it should be and patience is bamboo under the fingernails of every fan. Here is where the adage “no pain, no gain” applies. And so it goes for the season of 2008-09, where we fans sit on the warmer side of purgatory
by betweentheeyes on Dec 27, 2008 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
The current "Ivory Tower" line-up isn’t working. The Kings have switched coaches but left the same rotation in place and lost at an alarming rate. Wise up Natt, Theus got fired doing the identical thing that you are doing.
This is what I’ve been thinking from day one.
“Kenny, are you changing the rotation?”
“No, I’m going to leave it in place.”
“Kenny, are you changing the offense?”
“No, I’m going to leave it in place.”
“Kenny, are you changing the defense?”
“No, I’m going to leave it in place.”
The only thing Natt has done is “simplify” the offensive sets and have more “organized” practices, whatever that means. I’m not saying the guy should be fired, but what’s the point of changing coaches if you’re going to keep doing what the old coach did?
Maybe it was purely a personality thing with Reggie and Chuck People. I don’t know. I don’t mean this to be a slam on Natt. Realistically, this group of players just aren’t going to cut it. But I never understood why he came in and basically said he wasn’t going to change anything.
Those things being said, I’m not sure the rotations are the problem. I think it’s a combination of young guys who are struggling, Beno significantly underperforming, Brad Miller’s horrific defense and an overall lack of talent. Coaching can’t fix those problems.
Shut up and Coach
Lot of problems with this team
Brad Miller is the main issue, as far as players go, and personally, the sooner you trade him is the sooner you can start Shock & Hawes together. That’s what we all want to see, and Petrie isn’t willing to give in yet. I wonder why.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on Dec 27, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Bingo
There’s no easy solution for this team, but trading Brad is a start. Spencer’s struggling playing out of position at the 4. Jason’s not getting consistent minutes. Trade Brad, and Spencer can slide over to his natural center spot. Start Mikki if you feel like you need a veteran next to him, but give Jason all the big man minutes off the bench. And, if going small works for certain matchups, you can give Donte some burn at the 4 as well.
In Brad Miller's defense
(pardon the use of the name and defense in the same sentence)
Miller is averaging pretty much his career average numbers. While I agree that he’s not the ideal center because he doesn’t clog up the paint and he doesn’t block shots, he’s pretty much the same player he’s always been.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that he’s quit, because the numbers don’t back it up, and if you watch him play, he seems to still care and play with some heart.
Not to mention the way he is helping Hawes develop. Watch him talk to Hawes during time-outs and free throws. He’s a mentor, and the best big man we have.
Would I trade him if we got good value in return? Yes.
Am I on the “throw out the bum” bandwagon? No way.
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Dec 27, 2008 7:14 PM PST up reply actions
I would think GP has a plan, a picture
and he cannot get what he wants for Brad Miller. It is easy to want to trade it is difficult to get what you want and/or how you want it. My guess is that he has some offers but either too mnay strings or the wrong ones.
by betweentheeyes on Dec 27, 2008 7:18 PM PST up reply actions
No kidding Carl
Rec’d
Not sure the problem is the Miller/Hawes line-up – as i don’t know who will score with Miller/JT, as JT looks lost on offense right now.
The problem as I’ve said before is that we’re incredibly easy to prepare for. There’s no one on this team who (not enough) who gives a different look, a different threat. BobbyJ was effective last night because he was ‘catching and shooting’, something this team sorely lacks. Look at the tape from last nights game – or any night, perimeter players on this team constantly receive the ball and even if they’re open – feel the need to make a ‘basketball move’ before shooting. We have to have another player who just takes the freakin’ open shot! Cisco can do this but is proving that he is suited to be a 6th man rather than a starter. He is best when he brings that attitude and energy off the bench. A better scorer as well. 6 shots??!! Starting at SG and you take 6 shots?
A truly physical inside presence is also obviously a problem on Both ends. Artest gave us some of both of those things – whatever else his problems were. I’d remind everyone that even with all the injuries around him – we were over .500 in games he played in.
Now, I’m not advocating a return of Ron-Ron, I’m advocating the aquisition or development of a similar (hopefully saner) player.
Donte’ may be able to be that guy – but can’t be if he doesn’t get any minutes as Z says above! It seems to me that his play has improved quite a bit lately and I’m puzzled that he got NO minutes. Is he in the doghouse? Is he sick?
Is KennyN already worrying about his next contract? With him as coach, now we have a lack of emotion both on the floor AND on the sidelines. I’m missing Reggie already. At least he was putting his guts out there. (I was never in favor of firing him during the season)
As I said last summer in my Post ‘WHO WILL BRING THE FIRE?’
No one on this roster that I can see…..
"You keep on using that word
I do not think it mean what you think it means"
by lietothegirls on Dec 27, 2008 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh yes and also
THABEEEEEET!!!
"You keep on using that word
I do not think it mean what you think it means"
by lietothegirls on Dec 27, 2008 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
A similar player to Ron Ron?
Who where what why how when? (Oh wait, what’s his mental tests say again? Oh, he’s sane. Umm, what’s his ability to get along with coaches? Oh, he doesn’t? You mean he doesn’t talk to refs, but he’ll gab along with fans and start running a pissing contest with an entire state? Oh, yes, let’s see Ron Artest in a different body return. Yippee Yippee Joy Joy!)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Yes, Salmons stopped taking the open shot.
I agree
Look at the tape from last nights game – or any night, perimeter players on this team constantly receive the ball and even if they’re open – feel the need to make a ‘basketball move’ before shooting. We have to have another player who just takes the freakin’ open shot!
I remember 3 times where the defense calapsed and the ball was kicked out to Salmons but instead of taking the open shot he put the ball on the floor and dribbled into the crowd. I don’t know if anything is wrong with Donte but he would have put up those shoots.
As far as the “White Towers” goes, I’ve defended it in the past, because I felt that JT wasn’t ready to go up against the top PF’s. The down side is that with MM & JT playing on the 2nd squad we have no offense at the 4&5. And, even though that’s still the case, JT isn’t ready to defend Bosh. Spenser may have given us more scoring with the 2nd squad, but JT wouldn’t have been able to contain Bosh like Spencer did, So, JO & Bosh would both have gone off on us, and we lose either way. JT needs to learn to score & defend on 2nd tier players before he can hope to compete agains the top PF’s in the league.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
+1
I agree that having no catch and shoot players is a big problem for the Kings.
This is off topic, but I don’t understand why Jason Kapono feels like he needs to do ANYTHING besides fire three point bombs all game. The guy shoots 46% from three. He should be camping out at the three point line and launching a minimum of five per game.
Shut up and Coach
I thought last night's game was the worst game of the season
althoughe lackh it wasn’t the worst game we’ve played this season. There was no energy, no fire, no passion……..nothing. It looked like a walk through.
If KNatt isn’t going to do anything different why is he here? The Kings had 3 days off and they come out flat as we’ve seen them, rested and at home and………nothing.
At this point I’m not sure that the rotations are the problem compared to the lack of fire and the will to win the Kings are showing. At least with Reggie we won dispite the rotations and lack of top flight talent and Kevin’s presence. At least against NO and the Lakers we wanted to win (and did 2 out of 3). I didn’t expect the Kings to win many games this season but I expected to see effort and hustle and the scrappiness we saw last season while our kids were getting minutes and experience.
52 more games of KNatts risk adaverse coaching is the lask thing we need atg this point. Just like Cisco should be coming off the bench KNatt should be an assistant coach. The only thing he’s going to give us is a better position in the lottery at the expense of the development of our young core or potential core.
The only hope I have is that GP knows what he’s doing and that KNattg won’t set back our youth a full season.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Coach Natt is a basketball fundamentalist
and to me, that is a good thing for the future Kings to learn early
by betweentheeyes on Dec 27, 2008 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
that Hawes should come in off the bench at center. Another option to try would be Williams starting at the 4 instead of Mikki with Brad. Thompson is a rookie and still quite gréén. I don’t think he’s ready to be a NBA starter just yet.
The problem with Salmons is the rest of the team has created this monster. They all clear out and stand around watching when John gets the ball. There are no cutters to pass to off the drive. Natt does not seem to want to change this either. The last gasp play for the kings last night was to simply give Salmons the ball and let him go 1 on 5.
Williams?
You would rather have a fringe NBA player start instead of the future starting power forward? I think that Thompson played well as a starter early on even though he was playing out of position most of the time. The future is now.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Candace Parker was in the audience, but other than for her
Shel Williams is not a starter. Wish it weren’t so.
by betweentheeyes on Dec 27, 2008 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
I only suggested trying him
in search of chemistry. Williams may be a fringe player but, one, he is less of a rookie than JT and makes less rookie mistakes, and two, who else on this team is a qualified starting NBA PF? The truth is Williams was never given enough of an opportunity to prove what he can do. He needs to be given some decent minutes before being written off. The guy can bang, rebound and play defense. Maybe that is the what we need from that position right now.
Uh, yes
That is what we need from every position right now. Bang, rebound, play defense. Can’t hurt. Start Sheldon. Start JT. Start Donte. Do something different.
I think I'm going to center my point around this
It’s about the future yes; the present has no appeal. Except to Geoff Petrie. And, I wonder why. Geoff doesn’t like having his hand forced; Brad Miller is forcing it. Bobby Jackson is expendable, and easy enough to trade. Shelden Williams & Quincy Douby. 10 million of expiring contracts, and of the 3 that are, only Williams has any redeeming value. Which, the team can’t redeem because Shelden is the 6th big off the bench. (Which isn’t to say the Bibby trade didn’t do anything for the Kings. It saved them a lot of money. But, now Petrie wants premium value for Brad Miller. And, that makes it hard.)
I want to see a Shock & Hawes starting lineup. I want to see Donté Grééné play 10 mins a night. I want to see that, but I know it won’t happen. I would like to see Bobby Brown play 20 mins a night. I want to see Kevin Martin play on a healthy ankle with this lineup. I would like to see the stinking pile of dung play somewhere else, and as soon as it can be arranged. FedEx does still deliver cow dung doesn’t it?
Bottom Line: This team has no mojo, and it won’t be discovered until Brad Miller leaves, if the frustration isn’t too deep to overcome at this point. Stick that in your pipe & smoke it Joe!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
More positive thinking required - & it's 54 days to the trade deadline
The entire demeanor of this site has gone completely negative. This player is bad, this coaching is bad, were not rebuilding fast enough, & we’re not developing the rookies fast enough. And, my favorite we’re still trying to win, why don’t we give that up and just play the rookies.
Here’s some positive stuff from last nights game:
We out scored Toronto from the 3pt – 40% to 36%
We had fewer turnovers – 10 to their 16
We had more steals – 4 to their 3
We had more assists- 21 to their 17
We had more offensive rebound – 16 to their 12
We had more shoot – 80 to their 69
We shoot a higher FT Percentage
BB, JT & Spencer got minutes – 15 1/2, 17 1/2, & 25 respectively
Things are getting better, Reggie wasn’t the entire problem, we still have 54 days to improve our roster, and our draft position wasn’t compromised.
Lets have a Happy New Year everyone
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Dec 27, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
That's a positive way to look at it
I agree to a point that there’s been a lot of criticism lately but I think it is all part of the process. As fans, we tend to be overly optimistic about our team and I think reality is settling in. We are not very good, one of the worst teams in the league unfortunately. I still love the Kings, no doubt, but everyone’s getting frustrated because as fans that’s what we are suppose to do. The good thing is that we also present ideas and have some educated arguments about our team, I’m sure we will all feel better with the next big win.
That being said, I wanted to give you props for trying to make us see the positives and all that. It’s pretty sad and mean, but many times this season after a bad loss I would head over to GSoM and feel better (haha). Seriously, those guys have much more traffic and more contributors than STR but they are one of the most pessismistic fans I’ve seen (read?). I apologize in advance for generalizing but that’s what I see when I go to the Dubs blog. It makes me feel better because at least here we do more than bickering, complain and cry every game because our coach sucks, or our players suck, or our front office sucks. Some of their problems are real, but some is just downright complaining for the hell of it. Again, I apologize if I offend anyone over there (or even here) but I just don’t want to become that kind of blog.
by eduardo_m7 on Dec 27, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The way I look at it
We’re the Atlanta Hawks, just before they got good. The Kings just need to find the right PG and in a few years, we’ll be holding signs up saying “We Believe!” on em.
Errrrr
You mean we are gonna get a bunch of ‘new (bandwagon)’ fans that will say that they always supported Sacramento but that in reality don’t even know the names of the players in our starting lineup? And that those same fans will only talk about the Kings and proudly wear shirts with the logo of the team because is the cool thing to do?
Well...that's what happens to good teams
Same thing happened in 2002, as well. It’s good for the market, I think…help a small town team out, right?
Ohh for sure
I was just being a hater, that’s all. If there is one thing I hate is bandwagon fans. It does come with the territory though
Well said
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
HT gets silver lining kudos, Eduardo reality kudos
rec’d and rec’d
As fans we are both overly critical and overly optimistic. Not a Goldilocks in the lot of us. This is a site of discussion. Intelligent (yes for the most part) discourse. We argue. We agree. We disagree. If you want to feel even crazier and depressed, skip GSoM and go straight to SacBee.com and read comments there. You will switch from silver linings to silver bullets to kill those inhuman mutants who call themselves fans
I am still on the side of
we still have 54 days to improve our roster, and our draft position wasn’t compromised
.
by betweentheeyes on Dec 27, 2008 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
In the defense of Warrior fans,
the Warriors really are a mess so I can’t blame GSW fans for being pissed off. The Warriors pretty much are stuck with the players they have for the next five years with idiotic big contracts to Jackson and Maggette. They also make our front office problems look like roses compared to their problems.
smell the ashes
by iamstern'skippah! on Dec 27, 2008 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
I was going to say something like that
The Rovell character is not one any of us would be pleased with. (You think I’m brutal with Geoff Petrie? Feel lucky I’m not a dubs fan. I’d be ripping that guy like he was shredded beef in a taco.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Actually HT
I agree with you there is too much negativity regarding this team. My negativity surrounds management and their reactions (seemingly in my view) to Miller, and Miller himself, more than anything else on this team. It is what it is. Every team goes through a bad cycle. There are lessons to be learned here, and this franchise isn’t starting from zero.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
JT already hit the rookie wall
I remember reading about him saying he feels like he’s been in a fight, every day. Then saying he’d usually take 3 days rest off for something like this, in college. He’s already been in more games than your typical college season.
So, I think JT might have pushed it a bit too hard during the first month. It’s like taking off on a sprint, when running in a marathon. You exert too much energy in the beginning, you’ll end up slowing down very soon.
What I think JT needs to do is learn from this and hit the gym in the off-season to be better prepared for the brutalities of the NBA.
He wasn't prepared
But he’ll get used to it. JT needs time, if anything, to produce on this level But I believe he can, and will, get there.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Thank you High Tops
no matter how bad things get here at least we aren’t the dubs. I would take KNatt over Nellie and JT over Anthony Randolph any day. Their owner, Chris Cohan makes the Family look like the best owners in the NBA and if you want to see what Pookeyguru would look like as a dubs fan go here: http://chriscohansucks.blogspot.com/.
So as bad as we are, and yes, we could get even worse, at least we have the possiblity to get better next season. I apologise for my suckitude attitude but last nights game was soooo frustrating, not because we lost but because the way we lost even when you look at the positive light HT put on it.
Thank you High tops for taking the time to show that all is not lost, that this is our team and we can be critical without being whiny.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
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