"The hard part, like anything, is sticking to the plan, understanding that, 'Yeah, losing is nothing that any of us accept, but it's a part of growth.' "
Reggie Theus, quoted by Sam Amick
about 3 years ago
Tom Ziller
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Wha??
“The biggest difference in the arena is the fan base has changed,” Theus said. "I think that level and that expectation (from the success of the Rick Adelman era) is what they want and expect. The battle is that every franchise goes through periods of time when they’re not very good. This franchise went through that for a long stretch before they got good.
I’m not sure the fans are expecting the success of the Adelman era. I do think we were generally happy with the team’s progress towards the tail end of last season and the first couple weeks of this season.
"What Geoff has done (is) to put a core group of guys together knowing what we have coming down the pike, and the goal has always been to compete in the interim. Honestly speaking, except for a few games where we have not played very well at all, we have done that. And I think that Geoff’s plan and the Maloofs’ plan of the core group of young guys along with the veterans that we have, I think it’s a good plan and it’s working. It’s moving in the right direction.
A few games? What about the 8-game home losing streak? Three of the last four games have been losses in excess of 20 points. Three of their last five at home have also been in excess of 20 points.
Coming from Amick, this seemed to be a woefully incomplete article. It’s one thing to talk about the mounting losses and the lack of attendence, and Reggie’s continued belief in himself and his system – but did anyone think to ask him about what seems to be a growing dissension in the locker room? How a team with four days off and a finally complete roster gets blown out at home and clearly comes out unprepared to the Denver Nuggets of all teams? Why should a fan of this team feel optimism for the future right now?
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
An observation...
The Denver game really reminded me of the last 20 games of the Musselman era.
How a team with four days off and a finally complete roster gets blown out at home and clearly comes out unprepared to the Denver Nuggets of all teams? Why should a fan of this team feel optimism for the future right now?
Here is my issue and where I slightly disagree with you Otis .
Possession #1- Salmons initiates the offense, finds Beno top of the circle left, Spencer pops out, picks Billups, Beno fights around Nené, up fakes, gets Nené in the air and draws the foul from Billups who had come back into the play to help.
My interpretation: Theus thought he could could use Beno to take advantage of Nené’s lateral movement issue and draw an early foul, hoping to reduce the effectiveness of the Nuggets best power player by getting him in early foul trouble.
Defensive possession #1- Zone defense to start the game? Missed perimeter shot ensues, Nené goes over the back on Hawes (no call), smacking the ball off the glass but Miller is there for the rebound.
My interpretation: Brilliant, the Nuggets are not a great perimeter shooting team with Balkman, Mello and Jones in the game so again I see this as a move to reduce the effectiveness of Nené.
Possession #2- Beno to Salmons, Salmons passes up a wide open three, draws and kicks to an open Hawes for a side three. Shot missed, Miller completely blocked out by Nené, Denver gets the ball out quick.
My interpretation: Again, brilliant idea- show the range of Hawes and Miller early to draw Nené away from the hoop. Balkman had the rotation on Hawes but the look was clean.
Defensive possession: Horrible- Beno doesn’t pick up Billups early enough. Billup pops the open elbow jumper with 20 seconds on the shot clock.
Possession 3: Beno to Martin- Miller pick, Martin uses the pick to roll out for a fall away 22 footer (better known as the worst shot in basketball). All other Kings (Hawes, Salmons, Beno) stand around watching Martin. Easy rebound Mello- initiates the break- Miller?!?! back on defense to kick the ball out of bounds.
My interpretation: Good idea, get Martin, your leading scorer going early. The execution by Martin- settling for the 22 footer was horrible. Martin should have kicked back to Brad- cut to the hoop for the open lay up. In defense of Salmons, Hawes and Beno- this was an isolation play meant to get Martin free for the easy hoop. Theus kept these guys on the perimeter for spacing purposes, Martin let the team down by taking a poor shot.
Defensive possession: Salmons guarding Billups at the top of the key- Billups draws the foul, hits the 3 but misses the FT.
My interpretation: Brilliant! If the Nuggets are going to beat you it’s because you let Billups dictate the game. Putting your best defensive player in Salmons on Billups makes perfect sense when Jones and Balkman- two athletic but offensively challenged players can be covered by less qualified defenders. Retarded play by Salmons- caocjing call was spot on.
I could continue on but then my post would be like 17 pages and no one would read it. The next offensive sequence- Hawes in the post against Nené, blocked, Miller against Nené, blocked, Udrih drive to the hoop, good. I understand the goal of the coaching staff- limit Billups movement on the perimeter, clog the lane so Nené and Mello can’t get it going. Offensively, take it Denver inside- get Martin involved, draw fouls on Nené. 3 minute and 7 seconds into the game the Kings were down 11-4 and Theus called a time-out, pulling everyone in and giving them the business like I haven’t really seen him do in the past. Hawes, Miller and Salmons watch Theus closely, Beno looks around a lot and Martin rolls his eyes. Turnover Martin on inbounds- dunk- turnover Beno on entry- Dunk- Hawes lay in- hustle rebound Balkman- DUNK and one-18-6, game over with 7:50 left in the first.
The players have no interest in listening to anything Theus has to say which is where I draw the comparison to Muss. I think the coaching staff had a game plan, I think it would have worked if the players would have executed. This is a game that I hope Martin takes to heart because regardless of injury, he has decided to play and right now he isn’t really playing basketball. What happened against Denver has nothing to do with growth, it has everything to do with getting your coach canned which looks like the current agenda of Martin and others.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Dec 8, 2008 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 8 recs
I'm going to ditto Tz's point
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Interesting points
Certainly food for thought…
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
Actually jj, I would have read all 17 pages, Very nice post.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
This was
really solid analysis.
Maybe they should keep the coach and can the players.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 8, 2008 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
Reason for posting this ...
I posted this quote, by the way, for the “but” statement at the end. This is the problem, I think, with going into a rebuild full-steam from scratch. And really it makes Portland’s rise — with Nate McMillan still around — all the more impressive.
For a coach to balance inevitable losing with the need to keep his job … it’s incredibly hard. And I think Theus just showed his hand, in a bad way. He’s admitting that losses are OK. How are the players supposed to react to that?
I never thought I’d say this, but these players need someone they respect busting their ass.
*Raising Hand*
Ooh! Ooh! I know! Pick me Ziller!
The answer is… Avery Johnson
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Dec 8, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hell no
He lost that Dallas locker room. He might be an interim solution, but long term? No friggin way.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
But assuming Ziller is correct
which I think he is, Johnson will completely bust their asses and demand respect.
also, one thing you have to remember. He really lost this team after two completely devastating Postseasons. Losing the Finals and losing in the first round doomed his tenure. It just ruined that team and Avery became the scapegoat. I’d love to hand him the keys to our potential-laden young team and see what he does.
www.mancancook.net
Avery WAS the problem
Reggie is a scapegoat. There is a difference vfettke.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
A scapegoat but....
his team has still lost 8 soon to be 10 in a row and sits 11 soon to 13 games under .500 after 21/23 games. You have to win to keep your job and regardless of injuries, this team is already out of the playoff hunt and the season is only a quarter of the way over. I agree, Reggie is a scapegoat but he also hasn’t done enough to deflect the criticism away from himself.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Neither would have Avery
That’s my point. And Avery got the opportunity to take over a team that lost it’s voice, and eventually lost the same team. (MY point, is that while Avery wasn’t nearly as good a coach as his record might say, Reggie might not be as bad a coach as this team is playing at the moment.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Hmm...
I honestly believe Reggie could be a great coach. But he kind of needs a better situation… kind of like Avery had. I think you are right about Reggie. But, I still think you’re wrong about Avery. A career record of 194-70 is no fluke, period. Maybe he’s not the answer for our team, but you can’t argue his merit.
At this point our best bet is for the Maloofs to step away and let Petrie do his job and give Reggie the chance to coach a real team
www.mancancook.net
Yeah I can
When he loses a winnable finals, the most winnable finals for any superior opponent all decade, minus the Lakers Nets final, and when you lose in the 1st round, to an 8th seed, that just had your number, sorry you have to do better than that. Avery gets scared when the moment comes, and he reacts poorly. He is a guy who thinks inside out, and the Mavs were never that team
No coach, Reggie, PJ, Adelman, Sloan anybody can’t coach a team without adapting to it’s talent. Maybe some things stay the same ie motion offense, trangle, fouling, etc etc etc, but you have to adapt in the NBA to stay around. Avery never adapted.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I like the Avery Johnson idea.
The Kings need someone who is known for his ability to develop young talent. I’m not sure that Avery is the answer but he is a defensive minded coach, he is young and he has played and coached under very good coaches. I really wish that Stan Van Gundy had taken the job- his track record with young players is solid.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Not me
for reasons mentioned by Pook and others…
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 8, 2008 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
Uh...
The hard part, like anything, is sticking to the plan
We’ve got a plan?
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Play the bigs and lose
That’s supposed to be the top-down plan … not necessarily the coach’s plan. But to be honest, with the vets on the roster, it’s been hard for Theus to avoid playing them. I mean, BoJax is still pissed about not playing Saturday.
Maybe B-Jax should figure out how to shoot better than 39% from the field.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Splintered organization is what the KIngs have
I’d be happy if they traded Douby away for nothing, and just outright released B-Jax. He gives this team nothing.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Agreed
Any minutes given to Bobby are really a waste for the long-term future of this team. And he’s clearly not on the same page with Theus and has acted downright unprofessional a few times this season.
As much as I love Bobby, it might be time to cut him loose.
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." - My Dad, confusing me at a very young age.
I re-watched the game this morning...
and I can’t believe Bobby walked off the court with time still on the clock. Jackson would be a buy out candidate on any other team but I don’t see the Kings faithful accepting this proposition. So much for veteran leadership and the coach/player position he was hoping for next season.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
As they say
Pride goeth before a fall …
by coolcatreportdotcom on Dec 8, 2008 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
I think there is a flawed plan in place and Theus keeps playing into the flaw. Playing veterans major minute has to stop now. Although I like Mikki Moore riding the pine, I don’t understand the Hawes promotion. What Theus has done with this move is take away the best post option off the bench while creating a long term roster conundrum. Hawes is the future starting center. Thompson is the future starting power forward. This might seem like semantics but I don’t think so, how would you like to be Jason Thompson, looking at Mikki Moore as your competition for a job and then all of the sudden you have a 20 year old Hawes take your spot with miller under contract for another year and a half.
Thompson is the perfect complementary player to team with Miller or for that matter Hawes. Thompsons game is all about tough rebounding, baseline jumpers and putbacks. If Theus is going to run out Udrih, Martin and Salmons at the 1,2,3- all less than stellar rebounders, he needs to have an aggressive rebounder like Thompson at the 4 to make this thing work, not a guy like Hawes who is looking to get his. The reason the triangle offense worked for the Bulls- besides MJ/Pippen is because it wasn’t really a triangle but a square with either Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman dominating the glass from the weak side. Either bench Miller and move forward with Hawes and Thompson or go back to Thompson and let Hawes dominate from the bench.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Dec 8, 2008 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Well said (I"m saying that a lot these days) JJ
The point about Hawes starting vs Thompson is especially what I agree with. I think it would be better if Brad came off the bench.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
We only scored 85 pts!!
and you want to take out Hawes for Jt who’s still offensively challenged? Seriously, 10 offensive rebounds he turned into how many pts?
6 or something?
Cisco? Cisco? CISCO!!!! #*$!%! !
by lietothegirls on Dec 8, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
Small sample and miss representing a point...
We are not advocating benching Hawes but bringing him off the bench. I think Hawes should be playing 30 + minutes a game, Miller 30 minutes and JT 30 minutes but there are combinations that work better together than Miller-Hawes. Hawes can carry the offense off the bench- JT cannot-yet. JT doesn’t need the ball in his hands to play his game- Hawes does- as does Martin, Salmons, Udrih, Miller. I envision a team of Hawes playing in the post with shooters like Garcia, Brown, Greene and Martin waiting for the double team kick-outs. The Kings are not currently capitalizing on the best attributes of their players-enough said.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Dec 8, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep well put
Hawes is a better mix with the bench guys, and JT is a better mix with the starters. Simple as that. (And I’m rec’ing JJ for saying it better than I did, which I should have, but have said many times now.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Teams are closing up the lane on us
Without good three pt shooting and a lack of offense from the PF position, teams don’t have to play us up tight, so they can pack into the paint and stifle our penitration. So, we need Hawes offense more than we need JT’s rebounding. When JT is a legitamate threat to put up a 15 ft jumper or drive the basket, he will deserve to start. Until then, if Miller is going to get 30 mpg then Hawes needs to get the remaining 18min at center and at least 14 at PF. That still leave more than enough for JT so starting or not shouldn’t be a problem.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
JT was averaging 13 points a game until Reggie went mental.
And that was without any plays being run for him.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Wait, Thompson is Offensively Challenged?
We’re not talking about Desagana Diop here are we? We’re talking about a Geoff Petrie lottery selection right?
He can hit a midrange jumper. He drives and kicks. He’s got a solid jump hook with his right hand. He can slash with his left hand and finish with his right. He’s far from the liability you’re describing. Sure, he’s a little green, but all he needs is a rhythm (with consistent playing time) and Thompson can really fill it up offensively.
Does Thompson deserve more PT?
First off let me say that when Theus started Hawes & Miller, that it was Miller that played more of PF than Hawes. Hawes defended the Center, and had the offense run thru him more than Miller. (see # of assists) Hawes can play PF and is better now than JT, so JT shouldn’t feel bad.
As you pointed out:
Thompson is the perfect complementary player to team with Miller or for that matter Hawes. Thompsons game is all about tough rebounding, baseline jumpers and putbacks
That isn’t a typical game of a starting NBA PF. Does JT’s game compliment Miller’s hi post offense, yes it does. But, offensively & defensively, the Kings are better starting Hawes & Miller.
Should JT’s minutes be increased, certainly. Should Miller’s minute be decrease, absolutely. And, I think Theus needs to decrease the rotation down to 4, with Shelden getting whats left. Miller is showing his age, and should be reduced to 24mpg at center. That leaves 24mpg for Hawes at center, and 12mpg at PF because I don’t trust his knees totally. Let JT have 30min as backup PF and Shelden fills in when JT & Hawes need a rest. And, finish the game with the duo that’s working the best. I also think it’s important that Shelden comes in at the start of the 2nd quarter, because we alway end up with reserves finishing the half poorly.
So, I’d like to see Miller & Hawes start. JT come in for Miller at the 5-6 minute mark. Shelden come in for Hawes at the start of the 2nd quarter. Then Hawes come back at the 6min mark of the 2nd to finish. And Miller in for JT around the 5 min mark of the 2nd. Then finish the game with a 3 man rotation of Hawes, Jt & Miller in the second half.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Actually the Kings would be better defensively with Hawes and JT...
or Hawes and a gray squirrel; Hawes and a bowl of fresh fruit; JT alongside a Vespa….I think you get the point. Miller isn’t an NBA caliber defender at this point in his career. For all of Vlade Divacs faults, he could still put a body on someone in his later years. It’s like Miller never learned how to bend his knees and pushing back. After that amazing 4 block game a few games ago, he got his total up to 11 on the season, and that doesn’t even fully illustrate his ineptness as a man up post defender.
Hawes can play PF and is better now than JT, so JT shouldn’t feel bad.
Hawes is ahead of JT on offense and as a shot blocker but he is not a better rebounder than JT. And again, it’s not about who is better, it is about who fits with whom. Hawes needs and wants the ball- he has very good passing skills but he rarely uses them. The starting line-up has enough weapons, JT can do the dirty work so Miller and Hawes both can continue to shoot from the outside. Now, if Garcia and his sweet outside stoke and superior (to Salmons) rebounding skills were starting at the 3, I think you would be right about Hawes but then Salmons would revert to 4 year old girl like last year and it would all be for none.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Hawes can dominate a game in a way JT can't right now.
He can completely control the flow of a game in the right situation with his passing ability, face up skills, and low post game. He’s just inconsistent right now and is sometimes unsure of what he should be doing on offense.
JT right now is a solid complimentary player and is more raw than Hawes offensively, but he’s got the makings of excellent all around offensive potential.
I agree but...
Early in the season when both players were getting similar minutes, Thompson actually led Hawes in scoring, again, without having the plays run for him that Hawes got and as a rookie, not a second year guy. Thompson isn’t going to make the pretty moves or hit the three but he has a very nice baseline jumper and finishes strong. Although I like Hawes, I believe that Thompson has a bigger upside long-term and either way they are the starting front court (barring a coup in 2010) for the next decade.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Obviously you don't like Miller
As far as JT being a better rebounder than Miller, OK, but don’t be too impressed by his overinflated numbers. Remember, a lot of JT’s rebounds come from his own misses.
Right now, JT is a younger bigger Mikki Moore. He’s an energy guy, a human energizer bunny, with great leaping ability. He is nothing close to a NBA starting PF.
He doesn’t create most of his shots. He gets most of his points from put backs, and dunks set up by guard penetration. He’s got a jumper but hasn’t been accurate enough to be a threat. Mikki has a jumper, but since he hardly uses it defenders don’t have to play up on him, and the same goes with JT. Has he ever driven into the lane, or put up a hook, Yes. But, his low post game is raw, and inconsistent. When he gets the ball in the low post against a top NBA PF, he’s more likely to get a traveling call or throw up a wild shot , then he is to score. And, in all the games I’ve seen, I can’t remember him ever trying a one handed dunk, not even under the basket.
I have no doubt that PF is his natural position, but he’ll need time to perfect some moves. I also have no doubt his advancement will be along the timeline of Spencer. Helpful this year and valuable next.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Ummm no not so much
JT is not a younger bigger Mikki Moore. He’s a more skilled Mikki Moore who can catch balls aimed at his head that Mikki can only watch sail through air. And his footwork exceeds that of Mikki’s. I could keep going, but you might have the idea by now.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Just another excuse...
It’s hard to stick to a plan especially when they plan isn’t very good. We all know that there are many things that NBA players and coaches get so that they can be prepared for the next game. Some of the things are scouting reports and video. But everytime you see the Kings play, it seems like they were never prepared.
FIRE REGGIE!
I have a frightening thought
Last year Reggie was praised for the team’s effort throughout the season, but this year we’re already having trouble with the effort level. What’s changed? Could it be that it wasn’t Reggie that kept the effort level high, but Artest?
And even if that wasn’t the case, having lost the ability to motivate the team, is there any reason left to keep Reggie around? Seriously what does he do well? The effort level was his one saving grace.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
What Artest may have been
was the floor leader that the team is so lacking right now that kept the other players accountable. Every good team has at least one and I don’t see that we have any right now.
was the floor leader on the court who kept the other players accountable. Every good team has one and I don’t see that we have anyone in that role right now. Kevin has said that he wants this to be his team but I’m not sure that he’s vocal enough to get the job done. He seems to lead by example, ie, the way he played with a badly sprained ankle in the last game he played before he went out for 12 games.
The coach has to have someone who will call out the other players for stupid decisions, bad shots and turnovers and lack of effort. The so called leader on this team should have called out Bobby Jackson for walking off the floor before the game was over and showing up the coach. The fact that Artest was traded is not Reggies fault. That he has no respected vet who will support him makes his job almost impossible. As I said in another post, lame duck coaches don’t have much juice with anybody, either fire him or extend him. These guys might not know how much they liked playing for Reggie until he’s gone.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
by Bluejohn on Dec 8, 2008 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The thing is
Everything people say this team is lacking from not having Artest is true. But with having Mr Knucklehead, aka Crazy Pills, is that this was a 38 win team. This is far better than being stuck in neutral. Yeah, it’s the bottom, but every team has to bottom out some to get back on team. Everything is in cyclical, and the Kings are in the bottom part of that cycle. It’s the way the cookie crumbles.
This team needs the following:
- good health
- time
- a non neurotic, pessimistic fan base that isn’t dwelling on the good times as a worthwhile counter balance to the current less than adequate club
- smart ownership that shuts up
- management that doesn’t value veteran “players” such as Miller and hold out for better talent than they’re worth’
- coaching that puts together the right lineups and utilizes all the talent together properly
Now out of all these, which has happened in the Kings favor?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on Dec 8, 2008 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
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