President's Day Footnotes

by Ziller on Feb 18, 2008 2:47 PM PST in Footnotes

Can Tyronn Lue net a first-round draft pick? We'll see; that's about all Phoenix could offer (and they love giving away picks!), and they apparently want Lue to back up Steve Nash. Would they give up Atlanta's choice, now that it appears it will fall outside the lottery? Phoenix has a bountiful salary exception, so the Kings wouldn't need to take anyone back. Unfortunately, if the Suns won't give up Atlanta's pick and Geoff Petrie won't take a second-rounder, it's not happening: The Suns sent the 2008 and 2010 first-rounders to Seattle in the Kurt Thomas salary dump, and thus can't trade the 2009 pick until after he's picked and signed. If this Bibby trade ends up netting Shelden Williams, the cap space, a 2008 first in the late teens and a 2008 second in the late 40s... that becomes a helluva trade.
It looks like Shelden (and his friends, I suppose) won't be cleared to play until Wednesday versus... the Hawks.
Sam Amick linked to this neat profile of Shelden from last week. I'm trying to cobble a scouting report on the young man sometime before his debut.
SI's Ian Thomsen endorses Denver trading Linas Kleiza for Ron Artest. And he gets bonus points for being the first scribe not named Kelly Dwyer to consider points per possession as a team measure.
Joe Johnson is loving the Bibby trade.
My first AOL Sports column -- on what we learned (and can learn) from All-Star weekend -- is up.
A great post on blogs and blogging from Forum Blue & Gold.

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Comments

Next Move

Here's another interesting take on things, including the idea of sending Miller to Toronto.

This guy says keep Ron, deal Brad.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/9960-NBA-Sacramento_Kings-What_next_for_the_Sacramento_Kings_Mr_P etrie_-180208

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 4:07 PM PST 0 recs

Artest to NO?

I have no idea what they have to give up, but they could probably use some quality and depth.

http://blog.nola.com/gladow/2008/02/artest_on_the_block_good_fit_i.html

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 4:10 PM PST 0 recs

Pretty suspect stuff dude.

You might as well post links to your own rumors. Not to bash, I just don't see any validity to posting links to freelance Bloggers with no inside knowledge.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 18, 2008 5:33 PM PST up 0 recs

Some Advice

Don't read them.

I don't give a damn what you think I should or should not post, so save your breath.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 7:33 PM PST up 0 recs

Not going to hold my breath

but its cool. Dont be so angry, at least he read your "source"

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Feb 18, 2008 7:41 PM PST up 0 recs

Maybe

You'd be a little less charitable if he or some other nitpicker was telling you what to post or what not to post.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 7:50 PM PST up 0 recs

Maybe I should post what my thought of the trade.

I don't think I'm nitpicking. You have posted a ton of links in the last couple of days but it seems you have hit the bottom of the barrel. You just posted a link to a "Why not NO" link and a guy who is using trade machine like the rest of us. Have a filter dude, share viable information or hell, more of your own opinion.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 18, 2008 8:44 PM PST up 0 recs

That's your opinion

Here's mine: I thought it was a viable opinion that hadn't been posted here and was worth a look for others. Four options for Artest, whereas a majority of the folks here seem to think there's one at best. If you think otherwise, just skip it.

You could also filter your posts and eliminate a lot of time wasters as well. I guess I could point that out every time it happens, but that would just waste more time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 8:55 PM PST up 0 recs

I'm going with coolcat on this one

He posted a link to a blog, and didn't make any claims to the validity of the blog. He found it online, thought it interesting, and thought others might find it interesting. I vote it was a good post, though a little more summary to warn us that it wasn't really based on anything (just noting a quote or something) would've been appreciated - and I think that's where JJHam15 feels the rub.

Btw this has nothing to do with him winning out on the Mike Bibby autographed jersey competition ;-)...

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 19, 2008 1:40 AM PST up 0 recs

Yeah

There's nothing wrong with posting that link. Nothing at all.

by Ziller on Feb 19, 2008 7:07 AM PST up 0 recs

There is only so many minutes in the day.

I don't mind you guys disagreeing with me but there should be limit to the madness. It's kind of like what Jim Rome says, "have a take, don't suck" or your wasting peoples time. CC had 12 links to other sources in the Mike Bibby trade thread, all of them to valid sources which I think is fine do to the gravity of the situation and I didn't make a single comment. There is a lot of total shit on the internet. I would hope that people who link articles would first look at the source and use there best judgment as to whether it is valid and thought provoking to others. Use a filter, that's all I'm asking.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 19, 2008 8:18 AM PST up 0 recs

In fairness

The link was to an actual newspaper's website, which is a lot more than some of the stuff I link to.

by Ziller on Feb 19, 2008 9:39 AM PST up 0 recs

I sense

You are just disagreeing to be disagreeable at this point.

Disclaimer: I am anti-Bibby.

by otis29 on Feb 19, 2008 9:50 AM PST up 0 recs

Atlanta' Pick

What if we trade Lue and Atlanta's second rounder for Atlanta's 2008 first rounder?

If we can do it without trading the second round pick that'd be great, but it doesn't seem that likely. Either way, I'd still like that first round pick. Petrie with our own lottery pick, plus a later pick in the first round could be great.

by vfettke on Feb 18, 2008 4:29 PM PST 0 recs

Tough Poll Question

The Bibby trade poll question really needs a couple of more options for "yes, if..." and "no, if...". In my opinion, the trade doesn't make the team any better or worse (given Bibby's production over the last 2 years) this year. However, IF the cap flexibility leads to more trades that create room for an All-Star stud free agent signing and/or trade, it's great. On the flip side, IF the goal of the deal is merely to keep the Maloofs off the luxury tax threshold while maintaining a certain level of mediocrity (or leads to another disastrous, cap-clogging MLE contract and/or ludicrous, long-term contract for Beno), then it's a bust. The success of this trade really depends on the moves that follow; for now (unless Shelden Williams, who will be 25 at the start of next season, turns out to be a Jermaine O'Neal-esque late bloomer), it's a push.

Visit sunny and beautiful Movie City USA.

by DB on Feb 18, 2008 4:39 PM PST 0 recs

Shelden Williams is a family man

I can dig it. I'll take a high-character, lower production guy whilst we rebuild.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 18, 2008 5:33 PM PST 0 recs

I'm gonna go out on a limb here

and predict Williams will be delivering double doubles for the Kings by the end of this year. I predict this for a few reasons.

The end of 2007 showed a full month of what he could do. That isn't a fluke. We're talking a full month of d/d performance.
As a key part of the Bibby deal, GP is going to want this guy to succeed. I think Reggie is going to get a strong message to give this kid a chance.
He's coming to the Kings. A team with no inside banger. In limited minutes, JW showed what a guy with hops and desire can do on this team. And he doesn't have the pedigree of SW.
He is not behind Horford here. Assuming he can play the 4, he is behind a very nice guy who can't hold onto the ball if his life depended on it and . . . Artest? K-9? JW? Not sure if you can be behind a guy that gets no minutes at all.

Now we could end up with another K-9 on our hands. Thomas is a guy with pretty good college numbers if I recall too. But looking back, K-9 once did deliver decent numbers for the Kings until something broke inside him. I think that if K-9 went somewhere else his numbers would pick back up. And what Sheldon needs is a fresh arena with the crowd on his side and low to no expectations.

If I was into the fantasy league thing, I would add this guy to my roster.

by SavageBeast on Feb 18, 2008 6:46 PM PST up 0 recs

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, Agreed...Whaaa???

All good points, though he will never be "another K9." Part of the magic that is Kenny Thomas is that he is so grossly overpaid. That won't be a problem with She-Will (ooh, that's not going to work), as he is two plus years away from any sort of payday.

I like the acquisition. Last week we were talking about guys like Darrell Arthur and Kevin Love as being potential uses for our draft pick. Getting Williams is like getting another 10-14 pick. Hopefully he'll work out.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 18, 2008 7:33 PM PST up 0 recs

Okay, you got me.

It was a good one too. My mouth was open.

What I was trying to say was that at the worst we could end up with a guy that seems like he should put up much better numbers than he is ala K-9. But considering the size of his salary he will never be the black hole that K-9 is.

by SavageBeast on Feb 18, 2008 7:52 PM PST up 0 recs

She-Will

That's funny. Too bad 3-Will had to go, I was going to push for calling them Serena and Venus.

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 18, 2008 8:06 PM PST up 0 recs

No, no... Shelden is "The Landlord"

according to the article that was his nickname at Duke. Beats the heck out of She-Will, right?

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by jaredcar on Feb 18, 2008 8:54 PM PST up 0 recs

Absolutely!

The Landlord it is, at least until we come up with something better. We could then call Kenny Thomas The Landfill.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 18, 2008 10:23 PM PST up 0 recs

Wow

I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

by thelettere on Feb 18, 2008 11:08 PM PST up 0 recs

That'd have to be a pretty deep league...

I have no doubt the kid'll develop, but night-in-night-out double-doubles? It's possible, but I don't see it happening. He's 24 though, so he's gotta start producing soon if he wants to salvage an NBA career.

And you're right - Petrie has been using him (well, the fact that he was the #5 pick in the draft) as a huge talking point. Forced-playing-time is crucial for development, so we'll see what happens.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 18, 2008 7:33 PM PST up 0 recs

But remember

this is the Kings we're talking about. If you can make a lay-up and hold onto the ball when it bounces into your hands you're going to get at least 8-10 rebounds and 6-10 points. Nobody else lives under the rim.

by SavageBeast on Feb 18, 2008 7:54 PM PST up 0 recs

I think OP averaged 10 boards a game....

just on missed fee throws. I think that is my beef with Mikki. How could any guy seven feet tall be so horrible on the glass.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 18, 2008 8:47 PM PST up 0 recs

"The Landlord"

LOL! Hey, that's a pretty cool nickname. Here's hoping Shelden can start to collect some rent on the Kings property inside the paint.

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by jaredcar on Feb 18, 2008 8:50 PM PST 0 recs

Unfortunately

He got his eviction notice from Atlanta.

I hope the kid can play.

Duke has a pretty poor rep as a provider of NBA talent that is just starting to get some repair with the play of guys like Boozer and Brand and the re-emergence of Grant Hill. Maggette, Deng and Battier are pretty solid pros as well.

I guess we'll soon see what this guy's got.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 9:00 PM PST up 0 recs

Knicks to Stand Pat

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix0219,0,1289179.story

Quotes Thomas as saying a deal is unlikely.

Also has this interesting graph:

"Worse would be taking on any more large contracts, which Thomas says he still has the authority to do if he so chooses. With that in mind, Ron Artest remains a possibility; the Kings are shopping him after moving Mike Bibby to the Hawks over the weekend. Thomas tried last fall to bring Artest to the Knicks, but his offer, which included Jared Jeffries, failed to get the trade done. Kings star Kevin Martin has said he would love to have Jeffries on his team, but Kings GM Geoff Petrie, who prefers players who are above-average shooters, declined."

Good thing Kevin is not the GM ...

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 9:30 PM PST 0 recs

Strange quote.

Why would Martin want Jeffries on the Kings? Maybe he thought they meant Greg Jeffries or Jeffrey Leonard or Geoffry the Toys-R-Us giraffe.

Just so you know CoolCat, I'm not knocking that you posted this, I just don't believe that Kevin Martin would want Jared Jeffries on his team. Maybe Martin was just being polite.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 18, 2008 9:42 PM PST up 0 recs

Yeah

I thought that was a real odd quote and one that naturally could be twisted into something like Kevin saying,"Yeah, get rid of Artest, get anything for him, even Jared Jeffries would be better than Artest." Unless he and Jeffries have some history together or something.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 9:48 PM PST up 0 recs

Bibby Meets the Hawks

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/02/18/hawks_0219.html

He practiced with them today and will play Tuesday night against the Lakers.

Bibby said he's a shooter, but he will focus more on passing and use his shot to keep teams honest.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 9:34 PM PST 0 recs

Quick Question About Artest

Salary and other considerations aside, are there any restrictions that would stop Petrie from trading Artest before the deadline and then resigning him this summer if he opts out?

My thought is, if he is traded and then opts out and the offers simply aren't there, that perhaps Petrie could sign him to say a four-year deal at $8-9 million a year. Maybe even less.

There is an interesting dynamic going on here. Artest is a talented player whose earning potential is limited by his "issues," and Sacramento is a team that needs talent at the right price.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 18, 2008 9:45 PM PST 0 recs

If this happens

I would laugh my ass off. How unprecedented is that? I think GPayton did something similar with the Celtics (not the time he was waived and came back three days later - I'm talking one off-season he tested the market and came back anyway. I think.).

If Ron Artest comes back, I want this to happen: I say, screw Championship Basketball and rebuilding. Let's just have entertaining basketball. Bring back White Chocolate, try and sign some kids from the D-Leagues who can't do anything but dunk from the 3-point arc (or, just resign Dahntay and 3-Will).

And to cap it off, every home game has this draw: If Ron Artest gets kicked out of the game by the refs - chalupas! Add fuel to the fire - sign Antoine Walker and Ricky Davis, and hell - put Gary Payton on the bench to talk shit anyway. Trade Kevin Martin for Stephen Jackson, and get Byron Scott on the phone: Brad, Shawes and Cisco for 'Sheed. Sign Bonzi in the off-season, and frig it send Douby to the Pacers for Jamaal Tinsley.

In the end, we will have amassed the worst bits of the JailBlazers, the Brawling Pacers, and Worst-Team-Ever Heat, put an actor to coach them, and give 'em free stays in Vegas Palms whenever they want 'em - especially on gamenights.

The goal? Not to win. Just be entertaining. Whether you have to turn the game into a hockey match, dunk-city, or just throw up half-court shots during 5-on-1 fast breaks, go ahead. Do it. The bitches will be there afterwards anyway.

All the while, Petrie will just amass 20 picks over a 4 year span starting four years after this team is assembled. In three years, after the worst team in History award is won and the team amsses three wins on 130-points-a-game scoring average, then rebuild, from scratch. All we've got our picks and absolutely no contracts. It'll be awesome, Petrie has free reign to create the greatest team ever.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 19, 2008 1:57 AM PST up 0 recs

Ricky David Jamall Tinsley & Rasheed Wallace

aren't the Hanson Brothers. You have some unusual idea's; the slapshot narrative might be one of the more bizare incarnations. A great movie; in real life it doesn't work.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2008 4:01 AM PST up 0 recs

I wasn't

serious. Kevin Martin for Stephen Jackson? Note that outside Justin Williams and 'Sheed I don't mention acquiring any power forwards or centers (no, 'Toine doesn't count). This would be a team of ballhogs and defensive scrappers that no one would want to play against, but no one would really think they were going to lose against.. if that makes sense. Plus, you got white chocolate leading the show; what's not to love?

Everyone in my assembled roster had (significant) legal drama - even the one King we end up keeping (3-Will!).

Though, David Stern would shit his pants if this ever comes about. And that's something worth ruining a franchise for.

I just wiki'd Hanson Brothers. While the three you mention don't fit the bill, Ron "No easy Buckets for Ak-47" Artest, Stephen "I'd Run Into Hell to Stomp the Devil if He Was Messin Wit My Homeboy" Jackson, and Rasheed "If the Ref made the call, it Must be Wrong" Wallace would certainly count as a trio that would give your team that don't-take-isht-and-beat-'em-if-they-dare-try-it attitude.

They won't play well with each other. They will lose massively. There will be in-fighting and demands for more prominent roles. But now way in hell am I going to try drawing a foul by driving into the paint against those guys.

No way, not even on an NBA players salary.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 19, 2008 4:53 AM PST up 0 recs

I apologize

That seemed so coolcatish, and while the Hanson Bros effect would have made me laugh, after awhile it would have gotten old. (Nevermind the whole movie was a joke, and the actual brothers were goons in minor hockey leagues in real life. I read an SI article recently that said while they didn't tape their gloves with duck tape, they did sharpen the edge of gloves before games. Ouch.)

I understood your point. I just jumped a tad overboard with it. I apologize to both you & coolcat (for mistaking him with you) and to you for not recognizing the sarcasm.

(This is not, btw, anything against Slapshot. It is hilarious for those who haven't seen it.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2008 12:38 PM PST up 0 recs

At least

Steven Jackson comes to play in the fourth quarter.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 7:16 AM PST up 0 recs

No restrictions but...

when you trade him you lose his bird rights. He would have to fit under the cap. The media has stayed away from this issue but I believe that Ron's wife and kids are living in Indiana now and he would probably want to live close by. I do not believe that Ron would come back here if he were to be dealt but you never know.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Feb 18, 2008 11:11 PM PST 0 recs

What is the significance

of losing his Bird rights, and why would he have to fit under the cap?

The last I heard the family was traveling with him and the daughter had to go to the hispiral in New Orleans. That may be wrong, but that's my recollection.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 7:13 AM PST up 0 recs

Just another FA

The significance is that if the Kings trade him then if they wanted to sign him he'd be just like any other free agent.

If they retain him (and his bird rights) then they could sign him even if they were over the cap (which is pretty much exactly what the bird rights are for).

If he opts out somewhere else, then the best the Kings could offer is the MLE or whatever room they have under the cap.

by smgmatt on Feb 19, 2008 7:32 AM PST up 0 recs

Is that period

or just assuming they don't want to go over the cap

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 19, 2008 7:42 AM PST up 0 recs

Cap vs. Tax

Pookey is so much better at this, but I'll take a stab off the top of my head.

Teams cannot sign players if they are over the Salary Cap, period. There are ways around this, of course, such as the Mid Level & Veteran Exceptions (as in exception to the cap rule, although I could be mistaken on that meaning). The Bird Rights are basically rights that a team has to retain their own players, even if it would put them over the Salary Cap.

There are, of course, other ways to bring in salary if a team is already above the cap, such as trades, draft picks, etc.

What I believe you're thinking of is the Luxury Tax, which is a dollar-for-dollar penalty for any team that has a total salary above the Tax Threshold. There is a gap between the Salary Cap and the Tax Threshold that is a "safe space" for teams to retain talent without going into the penalty.

The other reason teams wish to avoid the Tax is that the tax money is redistributed to all of the teams below the tax. This is why the Kings let Vlade go, if I remember correctly, because he would have put them over the tax (which means his salary from the Kings' perspective would have essentially been DOUBLE whatever he was actually getting), and cost the Maloofs the revenue sharing from the teams who were over the Tax Threshold.

As an example, let's say that the revenue sharing is $8M, and Player X gets a $1M deal which is over the Tax Threshold. That team pays the $1M salary to Player X, loses the $8M in revenue sharing, plus pays a $1M tax penalty. This puts the overall cost to the team for Player X at $10M, so you can see why so many teams are concerned about paying the Luxury Tax.

All corrections are not only welcomed but expected (pookey, I'm looking in your direction), as this was totally off the top of my head and I'd hate to spread mis-information.

I would also direct anyone who is interested to Larry Coon's FAQ, which (admittedly) I did not use in writing this comment.

by smgmatt on Feb 19, 2008 8:33 AM PST up 0 recs

Don't worry you did pretty well actually

What the Larry Bird exception is for teams who are over the caps to sign (well presumably but hasn't always been the case) their own FA's while their over the salary cap. For instance the Kings used their Bird Rights to re-sign Webber and Bibby while with the team, something they couldn't do if either guy had played for say, the ~~Wizards~~ Bullets or Grizzlies.

The difference between the salary cap and the luxury tax is fairly simple (and lost in the shuffle by the know it all media). The salary cap is simply a number that the teams have to conceivably get all of their players paid by a certain amount (Say the salary cap is 55 million--you have to get your roster paid by that amount). The luxury tax is a built in dis-incentive to discourage excess spending for the richer owners who are willing to drop gobs & gobs & gobs of money (this will never stop Paul Allen or Mark Cuban let's be honest).

Now you have those exceptions: Larry Bird rights, Mid Level Exception, Veteran Exceptions (that's too technical--not really that important) and a couple others I won't bother to go into. But that's the basic gist of it.

As far as luxury tax here's what happens. Each team gets allotted a 1/30th share of the tax. That's pretty much all a team will get (the NBA front office often gets part of the tax) and it may or may not increase (that's too technical for me--that's a CPA question--I'm not qualified to answer such) the tax amount paid to teams who aren't paying the tax (that's the qualifier for teams who get paid the tax--you either pay the tax and don't receive a share--or you don't pay the tax and receive a 1/30th share).

I hope that clears up any mis-conceptions about the basic enaction of what each funciton of the salary cap, exceptions, and luxury tax is.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2008 12:51 PM PST up 0 recs

Thanks for the clarification

It's good to know that I wasn't far off with my initial explanation.

I also meant to reference the concept of the NBA's "soft-cap" vs. the NFL's "hard-cap" but I didn't get to it. The hard-cap concept is much easier to understand, but the soft-cap offers much more flexibility.

by smgmatt on Feb 19, 2008 2:08 PM PST up 0 recs

I don't know diddly about football

and I know even less about the NFL. I think the NBA salary cap is easier to understand because there is less to understand overall than the NFL salary cap. It's very intricate and complicated.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 20, 2008 1:49 AM PST up 0 recs