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Around SBN: Please, Someone Make Bob Sapp Stop Already

Pricing Beno

Lots of talk today concerning our ability to re-sign Beno next year. Based on TZ's post and if Ron does not opt out, there would be about $4 million available for Beno, and that's with us carrying only 13 players.

Is $4 million reasonable? Not if you look at starting point guard salaries across the NBA.

Let's throw out the veterans. Guys like Bibby, Kidd, Marbury, etc. These guys are all getting paid on their "big" contracts and that really does not apply to Beno. Let's also throw out the guys still working on their rookie deals (Paul, D.Williams, Felton, etc.) and focus in on the guys working on their first non-rookie contract. Here is what these guys are scheduled to make next year (priced by millions):

$7.8m  - Devin Harris
$10.0m - Kirk Hinrich
$4.9m  - Rafer Alston
$5.8m  - Shaun Livingston
$8.4m  - Mo Williams
$5.6m  - Jameer Nelson
$6.2m  - Earl Watson
$8.0m  - T.J. Ford
$6.8m  - Jamaal Tinsley
The average for these guys is $7.1 million per year. And Beno would probably fit somewhere in the middle of this list.

My spidey sense tells me that $4 million won't get it done. Something else will have to give.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Section I consider you a wise scrub
But in fairness I must blast you sir. You don't understand the market, or need to be educated on the ways of the market. All those guys didn't lose their Bird rights the way Beno has. So what makes Beno an exception to that rule is he has little to negotiating power, especially with the Kings whom you would think would want to sign him more than anyone, in receiving a contract larger than the MLE.

Philadelphia has cap room. They also have Andre Miller. Charlotte will have cap room, but the undoubtably, and Felton's presence of course increases this part, of Charlotte looking at Emeka Okafor. Memphis has cap room, and Mike Conley, Javaris Crittenton, and Kyle Lowery. Seattle might have enough cap room, but I doubt it (there draft pick will count against cap room). After that they might not have any more cap room than the Mid Level Exception anyway. In otherwords Sacramento has every bit the bargaining power with Beno as does every team around the League. Which is a nice feeling for a change.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 9:42 PM PST reply actions  

a wise scribe (and definitely not a scrub)
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 9:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Good points, pookey
But there is nothing that says that Philly can't deal Miller somewhere else. Or Chicago with Hinrich. Also, Mo Williams got the extra years and $'s because of his Bird rights, but Miami did offer him their full MLE.

Based on the above numbers I would bet that at least one team out there would offer Beno at least the full MLE (one example - Miami!). We can do that, too. But unless something else happens that $6 million contract will be the equivalent of an $8 million contract after the luxury tax kicks in. Would the Maloof's be willing to pony that up for Beno?

My point is that I feel that we are mistaken if we feel that we can sign Beno for $4 million. As I often say, I could be wrong. But based on the numbers I can't see Beno not getting at least a full MLE.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 21, 2008 9:59 PM PST reply actions  

Beno can't get more than the MLE
on the market section. That being said I'd be shocked if he didn't sign anything less than a 3 year deal at the MLE.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Beno can be had for $3.3 million
I laid out my reasoning in The Salary Situation Board.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 10:17 PM PST reply actions  

And...
I think I debunked it less than twenty minutes after you posted and with less than two full minutes of my time, including this post.  
God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

That was easy
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/comments/2008/2/21/19350/9473/67#67

You should take your time next time and not always make the easy assumptions.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks, Chuckles
I'm not sure if I should respond or just ignore your response, as you did mine when I last offered a rebuttal to you or point you towards section214's diary which says everything better.

Hmm, guess I'll respond.  You cherry picked your results, I chose a random five ranked lower than 34 in response to your question: what's a 34th ranked PG worth?

And, none of it matters if Beno ends up as a 34th ranked PG in anybody's survey.  

Anyway, it's late and I believe I'll accept your disclaimer for the rest of the night.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:37 PM PST up reply actions  

My bad
I posted this to Section214's thread instead of following yet another of Chuckles' links.

Apologies to all.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:40 PM PST up reply actions  

You're confused
That rebuttal you are saying I didn't respond to was to kingstalkrefugee if I recall right.

I like section's take; I just tried to add something to it. And actually I had already made my points in the other thread before I even knew this one existed. In fact, it barely was in existence when I made the other posts.

I just chimed into the discussion. Sorry you took it personally.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep
It was kingstalk you were sharing MSA stats with:

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/comments/2008/2/20/215430/348/153#153

That speed typing and speed thinking will get you every time :)

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:53 PM PST up reply actions  

A lil hot sauce
would make that foot taste better, KK.
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 23, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't cherry pick
You asked a question that you apparently didn't have the time to research. I had the info handy and shared it.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Beno Udrih
will not be the 34th ranked point guard by the end of the season. If he is we will not want to re-sign him.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 21, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I :heart: you.
God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

So does pookey
He just expresses it differently. :)
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 21, 2008 10:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Viewpoints
Pookey gives you The Boondocks love.

I give you the twisted Brady Bunch version.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:00 PM PST up reply actions  

There were times during the glory years
when people asked me if I ever was satisfied with being happy the Kings won. And I always said no. Because that's not what I'm about. I demand nothing less than the best performance the team can give under all aspects, and I refuse to cave in to judge things on a sliding scale.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:05 PM PST up reply actions  

If you were a character...
in the Boondocks, who would you be? Huey?

For the record, I love this comic strip when I have a chance to read it, I just recently found out that it's on TV.  Or was, is it still on? I'd love to find it.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:16 PM PST up reply actions  

The comic strip isn't running still
The show is, but there was some legal issue's with BET over airing some episodes that directly questioned BET's integrity. This resulted in the non-airing of scheduled shows. I'm a tad disappointed that BET even sued. Who cares? It's just jokes.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Cartoon Network...monday nights
Some funny shit
"I drink your milkshake...I drink it up!!!"

by kangsfan on Feb 22, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

That's when it is
What time? I love the show, I jsut never know when it's on. My favorite episode is when the little guy and the irch white guys go on a crime-spree where everyone let's them commit the crimes.

Hilarious.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 22, 2008 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I think
he's gangstalicious.
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 23, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Keep hurting my feelings
You spend more time thinking about me than I do about you. A form of flattery, even coming from a boring dipshit like you.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 3:16 AM PST up reply actions  

He could do well
and still not advance that much in the PER rankings. That's because the Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a rating of a player's per-minute productivity, not a function of playing time and overall production.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 10:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Really?
Do you even watch the games or follow these stats until you want to make a point?

Is Beno the same off the bench as he is as a starter?  

Was there zero difference in his PER between starter and backup games?  

Granted, his falloff was not as steep as Salmons' has been, but there was a difference.  You'd know that if you ever checked this shit out on a game by game basis.  By the way, have you gone back to check out the salaries on PG's in your Hollinger PER link yet?

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:05 PM PST up reply actions  

You Have Some Catching Up to Do, KK
>>By the way, have you gone back to check out the salaries on PG's in your Hollinger PER link yet?<<

Only on the top 42 :) Which is obviously more than you've done before deciding to pop off.

>>Is Beno the same off the bench as he is as a starter? Was there zero difference in his PER between starter and backup games?<<

Good question, and I don't think Hollinger provides the answer. And I'm pretty sure YOU don't have the answer. Surprise us.

>>Do you even watch the games or follow these stats until you want to make a point?<<

I've watched just about every Kings game this year. I've probably missed 4-5, mostly because they weren't televised. Some of those I followed on Game Channel.

I also know Ron Artest is ranked No. 9 in PER among small forwards, Kevin Martin No. 4 among shooting guards, Brad is No. 13 among centers (was lower when I wrote a diary ranking NBA centers last month), while Mikki drags up the rear with a No. 48 ranking among power forwards. I look at those numbers and other rankings numbers every once in a while and try to offer reasoned analysis when I post, not just mimeographed opinions.

In other words, feel free to eat my dust.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:27 PM PST up reply actions  

The only point you have in your favor is
that Artest hasn't earned a 7 game suspension and that the Kings could pick a gem in the draft replacing Beno.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Just to Clarify
What points don't I have in my favor? Or, better put, what is it that I have introduced to the Beno discussion that you disagree with?
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 11:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I disagree with much of your basketball opinion
I think Beno is far more valuable to this team long term than Ron Artest is for one. I think Garcia/Salmons make up the rest of the value Ron would bring over the course of the time for another. I have yet to see anything that doesn't display inconsistency and wild speculation surrounding Ron. Whether it's Petrie, or Kings management in general, they think they have something in Artest that clearly isn't as valuable as they believe it to be. In doing so that means letting go of Beno for price concerns. That is a large mistake. This team isn't worth breaking apart because keeping Ron Artest is a top 10 talent.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Let me clarify the last line
This team isn't worth breaking apart because Ron Artest is a top 10 talent in the league.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Unfortunately
It takes talent to win in the league.

If I thought Salmons or Salmons and Garcia combined could produce the results Artest can -- and I realize those results will always have to be qualified -- then I would agree with you.

Garcia I think can be a solid player. Salmons is decent as well, productive, whatever. They just don't have the star power to get it done. And if I have to pick between Salmons and Garcia as a part of the Kings future, I pick Garcia because he's younger, cheaper (now), is effective as eithe ra starter or sub. And I love his 3 ball.

And, as I've tried to point out, I think we can sign Artest and Beno and those other two will be part of the puzzle as well.

If I have to pick among the four of them -- Artest, Beno, Salmons and Garcia -- Salmons is the one I try to deal.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 12:12 AM PST up reply actions  

You think of Artest as a franchise level talent
I don't. That's where we disagree. It's that simple. I wouldn't even consider building around Artest and would dump him for cap room as soon as possible. The fact Petrie is even CONSIDERING keeping Artest is a farce in every way from where I stand.

As far as trading Salmons I don't particularly like the idea at the moment, but I'm open to it. I'm just not open to the idea of trading Salmons to create room for Artest. I think that's dumb from every angle.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 12:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Artest
I am not quite sure what you mean by "franchise level talent."

If you mean Tim Duncan or LeBron James or someone up THERE, no, Ron's not that guy. But Salmons is not even close -- he's simply a nice 28-year-old role player who had the best 20-game stretch of his life but who struggles to contribute off the bench.

Ron is unique in that he plays D and can guard multiple positions. That's actually what makes his game and adds value. His offensive skills are not as polished as they could be, but he can be a force there as well if he uses good shot selection.

The Kings are still a legitimate power forward away from being a serious contender, and that is assuming Beno develops as we think he can. If both those puzzles add up, Artest is just another key piece that makes that vision happen.

Now of course that may be too optimistic. Artest may just be a bridge to a contending team. I just think if we had dealt him the team would have spiraled and lost a lot of confidence. I think Ron keeps them relevant in the short term and hopefully surprises us and does more than that over the longer haul.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 12:43 AM PST up reply actions  

This team is a legitmate top 10 player
away from being a real contender. Other than Artest does anybody on this roster qualify?

If you mean Tim Duncan or LeBron James or someone up THERE, no, Ron's not that guy. But Salmons is not even close -- he's simply a nice 28-year-old role player who had the best 20-game stretch of his life but who struggles to contribute off the bench.
This isn't about whether Salmons qualifies as that player. Nobody is saying he does, or that he should. What I'm saying is that he's a valuable player if you hold him up to the proper context.

As far as re-signing Beno and Ron that just doesn't seem feasible for the Kings without paying luxury tax. So which amount of players do the Kings have to dump for that to happen? I don't think that scenario is worth it to begin with. And i'm tired of arguing specific value's of Artest's worth. I already know he's talented, indeed I'm quite aware as everyone else around here at what he does well and doesn't. I'm also perfectly aware he's a better basketball player than sometimes my comment indicate either. I just don't think he's worth keeping under any scenario. Given Petrie's comments to Amick, and the fact Artest wasn't trade for expiring deals, clearly Petrie feels differently. I'm not looking forward to the journey. I'm also done arguing against Artest. This is clearly more of an issue of whether Petrie has lost his mind now.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 1:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed
How many cellar dweller teams are out there with Top 10 individual talent?

by misterbrister on Feb 22, 2008 7:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Miami
D-Wade is the only true top ten talent that I can think of that will miss the playoffs.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 22, 2008 7:41 AM PST up reply actions  

And...
Most likely will continue to do so for a few years at least.

by Mityt on Feb 22, 2008 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Half a season
from a PG and you're already throwing out the top 10 talent. People like you thought Bibby's playoff performance was worthy of that albatross contract.
The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! The world may hate him. But good men love him.

by Psychrates on Feb 23, 2008 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Situation isn't comparable
Bibby got a big payday because the Kings had his bird rights. The Kings don't have Beno his bird rights therefore they can't give him that kind of retarded thoughtless payday.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2008 3:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Chuckles
In other words, feel free to eat my dust.

When you leave some, I will eat it.

Having said that, goodnight.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

And
when you truly "debunk" one of my posts, I will gladly acknowledge it. Sleep tight.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 12:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: And
I will gladly acknowledge it.

BWAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAAAHAAA

/takes deep breath

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAA

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Feb 22, 2008 5:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Otis
I've been wrong before and have no problem saying so. But I don't think this ant met the standard.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 6:28 AM PST up reply actions  

New StR feature request
TZ, I propose a "Take It Outside" button that we can push when we want to dump the "'Shut up!' 'No. You shut up!'" conversation threads into a new diary subcatagory called "The Playground."

by NYCFan @ Sactown Royalty on Feb 22, 2008 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Not sure about PER
But I will float these numbers per 48 for one Mr. Udrih:

As a starter:
18.9 P/6.7 A/4.9 R/1.6 ST/3.5 TO/45.5 FG%/43.2% 3PFG%

As a sub:
16.5 P/4.1 A/6.4 R/1.2 ST/3.1 TO/37.4 FG%/30.4% 3PFG%

I don't know how PER is calculated, but his starters numbers are better (outside of assists and a slightly higher turnover ratio). I'd have to imagine he bumps up a bit in PER.

And we are talking about a 25 year old guy who has started 39 games in his career.

For a guy who crows about Artest's performance on a game by game basis, coolcat seems to have ignored Beno's 10 assist, 0 turnover game the other night.

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Feb 22, 2008 5:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Where did you get those numbers?
Or you just calculate them yourself? If the latter, thanks for the effort.

The only missing number, and it's crucial in terms of PER, is how many minutes he's averaged when he started, and how when he didn't. I'd have to assume it's higher when he started, but I'll take a look.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 6:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Ooops
Brain fart, I see those are per 48. Question still stands on the source of the data.
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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 6:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually
I praised Beno in the game thread, although I couldn't find the post.

I like Beno and I hope we can resign him. My $3.3 million may be a little cheap, but it isn't that far off. It's in the ballpark, and I don't see a lot of opportunities out there where he would walk into the situation a clear starter.

He's also competing against a pretty decent crop of point guard free agents that starts with Davis and Calderon and at least four college players who could start at point guard in the NBA next season.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 6:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I Ran The Numbers & PER Guess
And have only minor fractional differences in a few cases.

So your point is certainly valid: Udrih plays better as a starter in all areas except rebounding and turnovers per 48.

His starting numbers in points, assists, rebounds, steals and turnovers are on average about 15% better than his non-starter numbers per 48.

He's played 46 games already with a PER of 13.02. Assuming a 15% improvement in PER in the remaining 29 games -- and that's a big fat guess based on my lack of knowledge of how PER is calculated -- that would give him: 46 games with a PER of 13.02 and 29 games with a PER of 14.97.

Overall that would give him 75 games with a PER of 13.76, which would move him up from 34th currently to 26th on the PER list.

A PER of 14.97 based just on his starting performances would rank him 20th.

Again, a lot of educated guesses and assumptions here, but I'm probably in the ballpark.

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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 8:59 AM PST up reply actions  

PERs
Can only take you so far in evaluating the worth of a player. There are other factors.

You're a numbers guy, and I'm sure the numbers here are all that matter to you. But before you start de-valuing Beno, you might think about these three questions. Answers appear at the end of this post.

  1. Is the team better with him on the floor?
  2. Does he contribute in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet?
  3. Could you replace him with a proven equivalent or upgrade for the $3.3 mil you suggest?

(Yes, yes, no)
TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 9:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Sizing Up Beno
>>I'm sure the numbers are all that matter to you.<<

That's wrong, but I think you know that. Numbers are a start, and it's certainly more than naive to think Beno's agent won't be spinning whatever positive numbers he can come up with. I don't think he will simply tell Geoff that "the team is better with him on the floor."

I'm certainly not devaluing Beno. He is what he is: a very promising young point guard with less than 30 games as an NBA starter under his belt.

Answers to your questions also aren't so cut and dried as you might suggest.

Is the team better with him on the floor?

Assuming that means as opposed to the other point guards on the team, the answer is clearly yes. If you are talking about compared to other possible scenarios, that would depend on who you are talking about and what timeframe you are attempting to analyze.

Does he contribute in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet?

Yes, he does, but you could say that about every player in the league. Bad question.

Could you replace him with a proven equivalent or upgrade for the $3.3 mil you suggest?

Maybe not, but remember $3.3 million might not be what we end up talking about here. I'd definitely like to keep Beno for $3.3 million, and frankly, in light of the new numbers TZ is putting up, I have no problems paying him more. Naturally the higher you go, the more alternatives you have if you choose to go a different direction.

Another route is to go for a rookie point guard, which would definitely be cheaper and would allow you to upgrade the team at power forward, where we still are searching for an answer. And if your time frame is longer and you think the rookie in question can become the next Paul or D Williams in 2-3 years, then it becomes a maybe, not a clear-cut yes or no.

You also use the word proven, and I'd think you can say Beno himself has not quite passed that test yet.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Regardless of other points
Signing Beno to a 3 year MLE is a deal worth it to both sides.

If you want to develop a young rookie point, go ahead. If you want to include Beno in a trade, go ahead. You can do all sorts of things paying Beno at that price.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Point guards are key players
And a good point guard can make up for weaknesses at other positions.

I'd rather chew broken glass than start a rookie point guard.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I would have liked to see Bobby Hurley
play his whole career. He had a great 20 game career didn't he?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I am sure
New Orleans is glad they chewed a little glass.
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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather draft a rookie point guard
comparable to Tyus Edney than sign Ron Artest to a multi year contract. Howz dem applez?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed
And while I will admit that there is the OCCASIONAL great point guard that comes out of the draft ready to play, they are by far the exception to the rule. New Orleans was a cellar dweller and had nothing to lose by starting a rookie. Glad it worked out so well for them, but don't try to sell me on that idea for the Kings if we're talking about being a contender next year.
TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Amen, Brother
It is insane to talk about keeping Artest but starting a rookie PG. I guarantee you Artest does not stay Good Ron without a real PG on the floor.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

About as Insane
as suggesting the Kings are as good with Beno and Salmons instead of Beno and Artest.
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by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions  

To keep the chain going...
which is ABOUT as insane as suggesting that the Kings are better with Beno, Artest and a skulking salmons than with Beno, a high preforming Salmons at a high level and whatever we can get for Ron-Ron?
Warning: StR may actually lead to familial disputes. - TZ

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Sulking Salmons
= soon to be ex-King. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You can tell where the team is going by who's on the floor in crunch time. More and more it's Garcia, not Salmons. Obviously there's no question Ron is on the floor at crunch time.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Salmons
A real go-to guy. Or, as you put it, "a high preforming Salmons at a high level." :)

Salmons is averaging 1.4 points per game in 19 minutes on 3-17 shooting in the last five games.

Meanwhile Artest is a lock-down defender and in the top five in NBA scoring for February.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 23, 2008 7:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Come on coolcat
I'm sure you can do this. Let's set aside all the Artest baggage for a minute and just talk about point guards. Deep breath. In and out.

Now, do you think really believe the Kings will be a playoff claber team with any pointguard they can get for $3m, or any point guard they can draft between 12 and 14? Yes New Orleans and Utah started rookie point guards, but they also had back ups and they drafted the top point guards in the draft, if not the best rookie point guards in the last ten years.

Your Ron may be Superman, Spiderman, and The Incredible Hulk combined, but he still needs a point guard or his team is going to suck.

Of course going by your previous logic, we could just let Ron walk, sign Beno and go with a rookie small forward. I mean look at happy Denver is with starting Carmelo.  

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Point Guards
If it were all about point guards and not about putting and keeping an overall team together and avoiding  the luxury tax and all other assorted issues, it's obvious Beno would be preferable to a rookie point guard, particularly IF you want to be more competitive in the short term. It depends who you are talking about if you want to go beyond next year, though.

I think Darren Collison is a good point guard prospect who will available at 12-14 if the Kings need him. But if we're able to keep Beno then I'd prefer to go with a big man in that slot.

Again, though, if the choice is over keeping either Beno or Artest, you know where I stand.

Naturally I'd like to have superstars at all five positions with three sitting on the bench. Ain't gonna happen, though. Choices have to be made.

Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Section,
I wish I'd read your diary before responding elsewhere to CC.

You and Pookey both make good points.  I'm fairly sure Beno will go to whomever gives him the best offer, but hopefully he has some of that SpeedRacer attitude and is grateful to the Kings for giving him an opportunity to show what he's capable of and will sign for some portion of the MLE. After all, the Kings are the team who believed in him enough to sign him fast off the waiver wire and gave him his opportunity.

signed,
Hopeless Optimist  

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Feb 21, 2008 10:46 PM PST reply actions  

Hopeful Optimist
Hopeless Optimists are SF Giants fans.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 21, 2008 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Or Billy Beane ass kissers
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought
they kissed his moneyballs.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 21, 2008 11:03 PM PST up reply actions  

There is that aspect of things
If you asked me who was worse: Susan Slusser or Ailene Voisin I'm not sure I would be able to give an answer. Both are pretty much utterly awful. The difference I think is, almost to a tee, is that Voisin has an agenda that screws up making her points clearly. Slusser just really doesn't know shit about baseball.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 21, 2008 11:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Billy Beane
It's like this guy, every offseason, trades (gives) away some of his best talent and brings in a bunch of unknowns just so that he can show what a great judge of talent he is.

I'm kinda pissed about Swisher.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm definitely not
Never liked Swisher much and am glad the A's got prospects to help stock a barren system (thanks Billy).

My favorite A's this decade are: Dan Johnson, Danny Haren, Miguel Tejada, and Huston Street. (And Street is overrated as hell. I just like the kid wants to battle.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 25, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Sigh
Did you need to go there???
Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Feb 22, 2008 5:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Denver
Another team that needs a point guard that won't have a high enough draft pick and could be interested in Beno. Of course, they might also be interested in the other 12 free agent point guards among the top 45 on Hollinger's list.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 21, 2008 10:52 PM PST reply actions  

Unrestricted free agent point guards
Comparing apples with apples, here are the other UFA PG's that I could find:

Eddie House, Earl Boykins, Jeff McInnis, Chris Duhon, Anthony Carter, Lindsey Hunter, Sam Cassell, Dan Dickau, Jason Williams, Darrell Armstrong, Carlos Arroyo, Kevin Ollie, Tyronn Lue, Anthony Johnson, Damon Stoudamire, Darrick Martin.

Yummy.

So is Udrih more fairly compared to the players on this list or the list that was provided in the original post? If Rafer Alston is at $4.9 million, Jameer Nelson is at $5.6 million, Earl Watson is at $6.2 million and Jamaal Tinsley is at $6.8 million...

Here it is in a nutshell. Beno's agent has access to these same numbers. Throw out the rookie contracts as they don't apply. Throw out the mega contracts as they don't apply. If Beno plays well down the stretch of this season somebody is probably going to offer him a full $6 million MLE. For God's sake, the Lakers will do it just to piss us off!

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 22, 2008 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

holy jab-nibblers!
Beno on the Lakers? Please, God. No.

It makes so much basketball sense, though.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Feb 22, 2008 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Hyperbole
Stupid statement by me given the fact that they have Fisher and Farmar under contract. But Houston? Dallas as heir apparent to Kidd? Denver? Portland? Boston? Orlando? Cleveland? Washington if Arenas opts out?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 22, 2008 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

From Your List
Denver, Orlando and Cleveland probably make the most sense from that list as he could start for all three teams, and none of them will be able to draft an impact point guard unless they move up.
Disclaimer: This post may be a complete and utter waste of your valuable time.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2008 9:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Is that your fallback list, Section?
If so, I like Duhon, and would be willing to give him coolcat's $3.3M if Beno walks . . . and if that would be enough to do it.

I also wondered aloud (just before the deadline on another thread) if Memphis would swap Lowry for Douby (and possibly a 2nd Round Pick if necessary).  Since Memphis still has 3 PGs, this could be a possibility in the off-season as well.

Had Artest been moved for another pick (preferably ATL's from PHX, but even Denver's would have worked) then the Kings would have more options in the draft, and could pick up a big (as has been mentioned) and a point.

I know that I would have been happy if the Kings had another 1st Rounder last year, so that they still could have picked up Law/Crittenton/Brooks after getting Hawes, but alas, the Bibby deal for Cleveland's #1 (and parts) never went down.  Hopefully the Artest non-trade doesn't have the same effect (many liked the Scola-Brooks idea from Houston, if Bibby would have been traded last year it could have netted the Kings Gooden and Brooks).

by smgmatt on Feb 22, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Hell no at Duh
Just go read 5 days of Blogabull. They hate his ass over there (or alot of them do).

As far as Douby for Lowery that's something I'd have to consider. I don't think Douby's received a fair shake, and has usefulness, and I'm not sure Lowery is the type of player I'd want in return. I want to see Douby get 10-15 mins this season and see what he can do with it. Personal opinion.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Luxery Tax
I was definitely on the trade Artest bandwagon, and I still think the guy is at least as unstable as someone like TO. Not because he is a bad guy per se, but because he wears his emotions (and there are alot of them) on his sleeve.

That being said, if Petrie and the Malloofs are seriously considering signing him to a longer term (3+ year) deal, how important, really is a few millions dollars in lost in LT money?

I say this because if you keep Ron Ron, it would certainly appear that you have decided to try to win games while waiting for some of the big salaries come off the books. At that point your options are wide open.

If you don't resign Beno, you not only hurt your future, but you suddenly have a team that can not win games. If you pay a few million extra to keep him, and you put together an exciting team that can win games, you easily recoop what money you lose on the tax. Especially considering that if you keep Ron Ron, you trade Salmons for an expiring, so you really only pay the tax for a year or so.

And you quite possibly could have a playoff team next year, which would more than cover your costs. I don't think that is pie in the sky thinking. If we had the current team playing the way they are now, at the beginning of this year, I think we could have snuck in.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 8:22 AM PST reply actions  

Excellent Point
If the Maloof's have changed their thinking in regards to the luxury tax then there really isn't a problem in re-signing Beno, and if the MLE will get it done (and based on pookey's input I'm inclined to think that will be enough), then we're fine contractually.  
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 22, 2008 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I may not be able to spell
luxury, but . . . well . . . Okay so not any quick redeeming point I can think of at the moment.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Not to nitpick
But you spelled recoup wrong, too. Recoop is what you'd do to chickens that got out.

(Once an editor, always an editor.)

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

As in real life
so in virtual life. If it weren't for editor I would never have publihsed any books nor would I ever publish any.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Geez...
You and LPA Fight like a Married couple Savage.

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Nah
She's just a groupie.

(Ducking, covering, running, and yelling in terror.) That tick, tick, tick, may not just be Ron.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 10:31 AM PST up reply actions  

You have time to run
She's actually cranking her music and cleaning right now. Can I have my phone back?

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Funny boy
Now you have to take me someplace good for dinner.
TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 10:37 AM PST up reply actions  

But what if?
What if we just let ron walk? Take this idea for a second. The Ron-Ron doesn't opt out. We get one more year of chest thumping, crazed threes, and the occasional pushing over of Josh Smith followed by a dunk. (Forever my lasting Memory of Artest)Not this year, but NEXT we have K-9, Shareef (I can't bring myself to call him SAR, it feels like a disease) and Ron-Ron all off the books. That's, what $24 million? I think I can live with that. That way, if Ron keeps himself in check we keep him, and if not we have money to toss around? Next year we still might suck, but we love our Kings, and can keep thinking, "You know, this off season..."

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

That's the question.
If we can get away with just one more year, I think we'd all take it. But when I read his agent's comments, I translate it into, "Ron may not opt out of your agree to extend his contract x number of years at x rate." Will Ron really be satisifed with one more year at $7.4 m?

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Good Call.
What if there's a clause in his contract saying he can't average more than x,y, and z?

Things like:

3 missed 3-s a game (if you're hot you're hot)
4 chest-thumps a game
2 Flip flops on his Kings plans per week (I want to retire a King unless I get traded to the Knicks because I'm all about winning, I mean money, I mean the team, how about my rap album?)
He must set at least one half-court (Miller-esque) screen per game.

I mean you throw in a couple of those, and I'm ok with an Artest deal.

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

This isn't what I meant
by productive.
TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Feb 22, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

One day...
when I'm a collumnist, and this is my living, you'll thank me from your retirement home. I'm cleaning my room.

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

So apparantly the whole
Savage famdamily is posting now. I think I'll just go back to playing Solitaire.

by SavageBeast on Feb 22, 2008 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Solitaire?
Is that secretly because you can't spell? F-A-M-I-L-Y. :)

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 11:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Is this for real?
StR may actually lead to familial disputes. Woo! Life's goal realized.

by Tom Ziller on Feb 22, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Not quite
It's more of the Oppostie TZ. IT's more like StR is going to have familial disputes spilled onto it. We pretty much agree as far as the kings go. Artest is a psycho. Sheldon looks like a turtle, but has game. Theus is the best dressed coach. Period. Miller plays better when he doens't look like someone Jacked his ice cream. Beno is our future. We need a new arena and anyone who spends mulitple hours on the trade machine (which should be banned in the time period between the deadline and the off-season) is a glue-sniffing mama's boy who lives in his parents basement. Not that living in the basement is that raw a deal depending on your circumstances.

by killerking on Feb 22, 2008 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

That's hilarious IAsh
Thanks I needed that. Last couple days has been too depressing.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 22, 2008 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Holy cowbells!
I havent been around a computer all day, and look what I missed.  

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Feb 22, 2008 2:40 PM PST reply actions  

Your pictures say alot
Keep on posting them please.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Feb 23, 2008 1:50 AM PST up reply actions  

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