A divisive subject at StR

by 27freethrows on Mar 2, 2008 10:46 PM PST Comment 34 comments

Anyone that reads Sactown Royatly on a semi-often basis has surely noticed a recent split among the commons; basically the "pro" and "anti" Artest camps.

I will begin my diary with the following discalimer. I truly believe we all want nothing but whats best for the Kings; whether it be short term or long term, we all want to see our team succeed.

That being said, there is a clear line in the sand. Those that like Ron and all the talents he brings to the table, and those that belive his minuses outwy his plusses. Anyone that belive he has no talent or no flaws are simply going to be ignored here. Welcome to the real world of blogging (wow, next I'll defend Wikipediea's accuracy).

Ron Artest can f*cking play. Period. And he plays both ways. And he plays hard. If you dont like that, you dont like Kings basketball. However, Ron loves Ron. In his own mind he should go for 40 and 15 every night. Here's the thing, I think he could too. However, for him to get that kind of production, he has to look for himself first, second and third. The rest of the team would truly become a second thought.

On the flip side, this team is weak defensively without him. You cant argue with that fact, you just cant. Look at his +/- numbers. While his help defense isnt stellar, his one-on-one defense is. His intensity and tenacity bring a lot to the floor every night.

Since the "we should/shouldnt have traded him at the deadline" argument has been beaten to death, I wont go there. Also, no matter what the most recent quote or interview says, we have no way of knowing if Artest will be with the team next year.

All of this being said, lets get past the personal bickering around him. It's sad that on a site built to bring Kings fans together, we have resorted to attacking eachother personally based on our opinion of one individual player. I am not saying we should not debate his, or any other players, place in our future. Butlets not make our opinions on him a subject of hatred. Its sad to see the sixth post of an open game thread attack the opinions of others (that hadnt said a thing) instead of discusing the game in any way.

We are all Kings fan first, right? Plus, our next game is against the Lakers, so lets start to band together.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Good post, 27

I agree wholeheartedly. I also wonder if Ron is a divisive subject within the locker room as well.

by thekangarooster on Mar 2, 2008 11:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ok, I'll bite.

Hello, my name is James and I don't like Ron Artest. Here are my OPINION.

Yes, I agree that Ron is a very talented player. Defensively, he is one of the top man on defenders in the league. Offensively, he is a very talented isolation player, often even unstoppable when going to the basket.

Here are my grievances: Ron is not a good team defender. He often gets lost in coverage, he doesn't block shots as a help defender and he is vulnerable against taller small forwards. Ron often leaves his man behind the three point line to gamble on steals, his man often responds by hitting a wide open three. Ron is not a good rebounder, defensively, offensively, at all. It doesn't really make any sense, Ron is a beast around the hoop, he is built like a linebacker and he should be able to box out anyone in the league.

Ron is not a good team offensive player. Ron is good at passing out of the double team...if he really has too. Most of his assists come in these situations. Ron does not make the other players on the team better offensively. Ron doesn't hit Martin in the motion offense, leaving Martin to run around like a crazy man for no reason. Ron take too many threes and fall away jumpers. I don't care if his shots go in, if it is a bad shot, it is a bad shots (disclaimer: I didn't like Bobby Jackson for the same reason).

If Ron Artest played in the Eastern Conference I'm sure all of these negative attributes would be fine. The Western Conference requires an up-tempo, pass oriented system. Ron doesn't have the skill sets to be productive in this type of system long term. Sure, he has moments, even games where he looks spectacular in a motion offense but he is not consistent enough.

All of this being said, I can't get past the "other stuff". I pride myself at being a family man and a family man doesn't have domestic abuse issues, period. A family man doesn't get suspended without pay for 73 games because a family man has responsibilities regardless of how much he gets paid. I don't like players who can't co-exist with their coach, the coach is the man regardless of how big of a dip shit he is or isn't until he gets fired. A player has never led a successful mutiny and taken over a team as coach, so why try.

I am basing all of these statements off of my own opinion as a fan. My opinion might not be in the majority and I welcome constructive criticism or countering views. I like posting here on StR but I agree that things have become pretty out of control.

StR- Where Pookey is long, Otis is short and Section brings down the house.

by jjham15 on Mar 3, 2008 12:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well Said JJ

Very well played sir. (And I agree with much of what you say.)

Now onto the minor nitpicking points (and this is in no way a criticism of the larger overall piece):

Players have led mutiny's--it just hasn't been for them to coach
Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson both got coaches fired early in their careers
That's all I got

I think the bottom line with Ron-Ron is that he just doesn't fit into what most of the team does best or how it plays. While "some" can't get over that the rest of us without an agenda for or against Ron, and I'll admit I like Kevin more than any other player, but that isn't because he scores alot, I would rather just criticize Ron for what he isn't doing.

All I've seen from the pro-Artest camp is a bunch of flame thread starting and bullshit. I haven't seen a quality rebuttal to how Artest makes the team better. I haven't seen how Artest's abilities makes the team better. I would like to see that opinion, and yet despite many subtle, and not so subtle attempts, I haven't seen any rebuttal against the non-Artest crowd.

You're still on the clock folks. Step up to the plate, or stop complaining incessantly for little reason.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 2:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Like the old Bud Light commercial,

I feel very strongly both ways.

It's like this: Artest is one of the most physically gifted players in the NBA, and he can do stuff on a basketball court very few others can. He's also a very intense player who is driven to win. When he's playing smart and he's focused he definitely helps his team do just that.

But obviously that's not the bottom line with the guy, because of two major hang-ups.
1) He has lapses where he tries to take over a game on his own, firing again and again from 20 feet out, not finding the open man, and basically clogging up the offensive flow. Now, C-Webb also had this tendency late in his career here, and I could almost live with a few instances of this flaw in Ron Ron's game, except for...

B) The man has a history of weirding out, and if he does it again while wearing a purple and black uni we are screwed, plain and simple. He's one incident away from suspension or maybe even being banned permanently from the NBA. It's just too big of a risk to keep him, especially on a rebuilding team that won't be a serious contender for at least another couple of seasons.

I didn't think Petrie should deal Artest at all costs, and get next to nothing in return outside of an expiring contract or two and a mediocre draft pick. But I do agree with Pookey and the others who argue that Artest shouldn't have a long-term future in Sacramento.

I think Petrie feels much the same way. He tried to trade Ron Ron, and I think he may yet find a way to move the guy to a contending, veteran team (where he could put his considerable talents to better use) and get something of value in return.

"When the Going Gets Weird, the Weird Turn Pro." (Hunter S Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Mar 3, 2008 2:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with all you've said,

except this, what Ron brings are the intangibles that this team hasn't had since C Webb...toughness, a presence on the court, and a desire to win that is contagious.

I have always said that with all the criticisms leveled against him, that the bottom line is that he wants to win (he says that all the time), and if you put him in the right system (strong coaches, allow him to be who he is, and put alot of responsibility on him) he will flourish.

I still think this team can be that for him.

by shazam on Mar 3, 2008 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BEAT LA im all for it !!!!

I totally agree with what you said, not every player can be what you want to be, Ron is a double edge sword so to speak. LETS rally together for the LA game !!!!

GO KINGS !!!

by maiku on Mar 3, 2008 12:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Amen brotha!

Keep on keepin' on!

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 3, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone else see the DAL-LAL game?

That was a damn good game. Those teams are legit. Hopefully, we can play good enough to avoid being blown out (maybe even win?) Artest is here, we should have traded him but we didn't. Let's move on guys!

PS. Does anyone else, aside from me of course, like Van Gundy as a commentator? He's knowledgeable and pretty funny

by kingme on Mar 3, 2008 1:56 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I watched some of it before I had to work

But when I left Dal was up like 8 at that time. They hadn't collapsed yet. Kobe at one point was like 2-8 from the line because of his thumb or whatever the problem with his hand is.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 1:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I completely agree with your post

It's totally beside the point to argue about whether Ron is "good" or "bad." Whatever that might mean to each person. A question I do think is worth debating is, what should the Kings be trying to do for the rest of the season?

PG I think gets the last laugh on his "blow up the team now" direction he has stated from the beginning. I was one of the dewy-eyed optimists that thought the Kings could sneak into a playoff spot.

Now that it is clear they can't, should any veteran be playing 35+ minutes? Is Reggie's job on the line enough that he must play as if every win is for the title?

Ron's comment in the Bee today about being pulled for too long against Miami last week might be correct. But is it worth cutting the young guys minutes to beat the worst team in the league?

Ron only cares about winning every game. What should the Kings/Kings fans care about?

by SavageBeast on Mar 3, 2008 9:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well bro

I wish I could say that. However, I'm totally not in the mood to watch this team in any way. I'm entirely turned off by this product, and hope that this absolute crockfest doesn't continue past the summer.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

RE:

I think Reggie attempts to control Artest by becoming buddy-buddy with him. I have to admit, it probably has worked at keeping him in line, but it may have held back other people on the team. Ala truehoop's article TZ referenced earlier this week.

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 3, 2008 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good Points All around

Like most of you I like watching Nice Artest play but don't care much for watching Bad Artest play. I'd like to see the guy succeed, but I don't think he will in Sacramento. But, quite frankly, I think Theus has to accept some of the blame for the presence of Bad Artest. I think the Hoopsworld review of Theus's poor use of Speed Racer encapsulated the problem well: Theus likes the guy who treats him like a team captain instead of a coach.

I think Artest is a perfect candidate to be the Ray Allen of the 2008 Draft. One of the cellar teams with an aging star is going to get screwed in the lottery and the star is going to start pounding his fists about winning a championship now then poof...Petrie signs and trades Artest for a #5-9 pick.

by NYCFan on Mar 3, 2008 11:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'd love to see that happen NYC

But because you can't sign a player until July that scenario isn't even possible.

(Basically the Kings can't do ANYTYHING with Artest until after the July Moratorium is lifted).

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting. Didn't know that

When must a player declare on his opt out clause?
Can he remain on his contract, with some sort of under the table promise for a renegotiate come July?

by NYCFan on Mar 3, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A player must opt out by June 25th

Yes, well in theory yes you could do that. But, there is always the Joe Smith "thing" hanging over team's head. The NBA is very suspicious of those things. I don't think any team will try it again. I don't think any player would ask for that knowing it can't be done in writing, and without it being put in writing the NBA can't prove that anything is illegal being done.

I know you were referencing Ray Allen being traded to the Celtics. Here are the differences:

Allen was under contract for the next season
the 5th pick was not the only thing traded as it has no financial value until the following season, and technically the 2007 draft is still part of the 2006-07 season, and not the 2007-08 season
I'm not sure Dwyane Wade will make the type of comments Paul Pierce did

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, maybe I'm just a little dense here

Are you assuming that Artest will opt out? Or is there another reason we couldn't trade Artest before the draft? If he decides not to opt out, we can trade him right?

by SavageBeast on Mar 3, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Salary cap rules prevent it

Whether or not the Kings KNOW Artest isn't opting out or not, it doesn't matter. You can't trade a player until the summer regardless. It has to do with the fact that Artest has an option to become a FA, and therefore you can't trade a prospective FA before the START of the next season. In otherwords, because you won't know whether Artest is a FA until June 25th or not, then you can't trade him until the start of the next season. The start of the next season is July 1st, but then the July Moratorium kicks in. Therefore you have to wait until the July moratorium ends to trade Artest (whether it's in a sign & trade or whether he's under contract still).

I hope that explains it.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Great explanation Pookie

You are the king of simplfying all things complex.

by SavageBeast on Mar 3, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the compliment

But I believe TZ is better at that than I am.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 4, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You OWN wikipedia

When it comes to trade knowledge, you Pookey are the ultimate knowledge base. Thanks for the help.

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 3, 2008 10:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

While I love me a Wiki reference

That knowledge belongs to Dan Coon. I've just read his FAQ way TOOOOO many times. (What can I say I'm a salary cap junkie?)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 4, 2008 2:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So...

He can agree to another year of his current contract before draft night but after the draft order is established. So Petrie has a window to pull off a draft pick for Artest trade. No?

by NYCFan on Mar 3, 2008 1:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Yes theoretically you could see that

You just can't use Ron Artest as the trade bait. (Or Kenny Thomas for that matter.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me make this very very clear

You cannot ,I REPEAT, CANNOT, trade Ron Artest, until the July Moratorium is lifted. You cannot come up with a scenario to make it so.

(This is only a disclaimer. Any suggestions such as mine from a few days ago are heartily welcomed by me. I just want people to understand that Artest can't be traded by the draft. That's all.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 3, 2008 2:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Awsome post

Thank you for putting into words what I've been thinking for a few weeks now but didn't have the word-smithing skills you have to put it in a diary.

Great follow up posts by everyone else too!

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Mar 3, 2008 6:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks!

I thought that most people would agree, but it needed to be said. United we stand (yes, I know how pathetically cheesy that is, but as I have said before, election season seems to affect me this way).

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 3, 2008 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Great point KK

I think this thread has been particularly good too. And I would like to thank everyone here for keeping my waning interest alive in the Kings (I've been on the verge of saying fuck this team until the season is done.)

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 4, 2008 2:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My hope,

is that you don't give up on the Kings yet.

I don't always agree with you, but I always appreciate your comments/diaries here. You put tons of thought and stat research into each of your posts.

The rest of the Kings season without your commentary would definitely be less flavorful.

As for the main point of this diary? I promise to try not to respond to any simply inflammatory/trolling posts in the future.

My patience has been (is being) tried.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Mar 5, 2008 12:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I've lost patience

And I'm trying to limit the amount of posts I post on here. Nothing I have to say on this team, in my opinion, is much use to anyone. I'm just kinda riding out this season.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Mar 5, 2008 12:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I feel you,

but I think your posts are always useful. But then, I haven't ever seen you in full free-fall depression mode either.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Mar 5, 2008 12:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A little clarification

I think the intent of my diary may have been unclear. I do not want to debate whether Ron is a good fit on this team or not (however, I would much rather debate it here than in a game thread). Instead, I wanted to remind us all that we are here for the same reasons. I just find it to be a bummer when people chose to attack one another instead of discuss whatever the subject at hand tends to be. While our opinions will always vary, and therefore disagree, I just want us all to remember the big picture. Discuss, debate, argue, but lets not go out looking for a fight by trvializing eachothers opinions.

As always, GO KINGS!

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Mar 3, 2008 10:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

HEY NOOB

How dare you walk in here and pretend to tell us longtimers how to act! I'm offended, mortified, and shocked that you would do so. (Also, I slept funny last night so my neck is sore - I'm currently debating whether this is the fault of your diary as well.)

Kidding aside, nice diary. But I believe you are tilting at windmills a bit - when the size of a site increases the way STR has, this kind of thing happens. We had flame wars back in the old days, but not with the regularity that you see them now.

It's not that big of a deal IMO. There are some hot button issues (Ron Artest, Arena deal, etc.) that will force more inflamed opinion, but for most other subjects, it's still pretty civil around here.

Mikki Moore - WNBA Hair, WNBA Body, WNBA Talent

by otis29 on Mar 4, 2008 5:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs