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Defense? Pfft

Great offensive night, and I'm willing to overlook the rest. Mikki Moore is the team's best post defender (a problem to begin with), and he played 23 minutes due to foul trouble. When Spencer Hawes and Shelden Williams are your big minutes bigs, 140 points is about right. No offense to either guy; they just cannot defend that well straight up at this point.

Speaking of Hawes, his legs look dead. Many of those Golden State offensive rebounds came with Hawes in good position ... but not much oomph to get them. Andris Biedrins, especially, went right around or over Hawes a few times, and Beans isn't much longer than Shock.

Shelden drew some commentary in the game thread, and I'd have to say I'm about on board with what everyone else says: He's a bench player at this point and likely in the future. His post skills are remarkably unpolished, his defense is questionable, and his size might keep him from being an elite rebounder (which needs to be his calling card).

Kevin Martin: 29 points on 12 shots, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and just 1 turnover. The definition of efficiency. Outside of Martin, the most encouraging things from the Kings perspective:

  1. Francisco Garcia: 35 minutes, 18 FGAs, 0 turnovers. If he can be mistake-free, he's a huge asset and a potential Sixth Man of the Year candidate.
  2. Quincy Douby hit his shots, played aggressive basketball, and made no mistakes. Great stint.
  3. Beno Udrih got knocked down three or four times, and got right back up every time.
  4. Anyone feel like the 'John Salmons can't play off the bench' thing might actually be a 'John Salmons plays better with Kevin Martin' thing? 22 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers with efficient shooting and passable defense (he shut down Monta Ellis in the fourth).
Odd, all the bright spots came from the backcourt. It's like this team's talent base is skewed to the backcourt or something. Weird.

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Kevin Martin
Led the team in points, rebounds and assists last night. Other than the points, that may say more about the Kings than it does about Martin.

If Martin can average 27 points a game over the last four games he will end the season with a 24.0 ppg average (currently at 23.8).

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 9, 2008 8:14 AM PDT   0 recs

I say...

Keep skewing the back court! Draft Eric Gordon...

Oh and Section, not to undermine you by any means, but don't sell Garcia short, he was the team point leader with 31 (and most encouragingly, only 6 of those points came from 3's.)

by rbiegler on Apr 9, 2008 8:53 AM PDT   0 recs

I meant to do that -
I just wanted to see if anybody was reading my comments.

Thanks for correcting me. If you could break open walnuts on your forehead I would think that you were Mrs. section214.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 9, 2008 9:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hawes
I agree, TZ, Spencer looked tired.  Personally, I thought he was often out of rebounding position.

Let's face it, his biggest area for growth is on the defensive end where he simply doesn't have the same instincts he does on the offensive side. Still, the defense of most first year players in the NBA just plain sucks. I'm not too worried at this point.  From all accounts he has a good worth ethic, plenty of attitude, and a micro-managing coach, who is going to ride his young ass for the time-being.

Loved watching El Flaco light it up!

by Kusian on Apr 9, 2008 10:13 AM PDT   0 recs

Hawes looked tired, but...................
He was the only King to be in the positive in +/- ratio at +1.......

by Reverend John on Apr 9, 2008 12:25 PM PDT   0 recs

Does this mean Darrell Arthur is the type
of player the Kings will openly seek?
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 9, 2008 1:25 PM PDT   0 recs

Maybe we get lucky
and Kevin Love falls to us. How sweet would that be!

/smart ass

by vfettke on Apr 9, 2008 2:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually watched the game
This was the first Kings game I had watched in a month or so.  It didn't take long before I yelled at the tv, "Box out and get a F*#$ing rebound!"  Then soon after I lost interest and fell asleep on my couch.  I guess things haven't changed much in a month.

by thekangarooster on Apr 9, 2008 3:53 PM PDT   0 recs

I refuse to watch the Kings anymore
with Ron Artest. I thought I could finish the season, but I was wrong. I have a year's worth of league pass being partially used because of my in-tolerance of Artest, and partially because Petrie's comment's of the non-Artest trade have infuriated me.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 9, 2008 10:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thinking out loud
pookey, your opinion on this if you please -

Had Petrie made the deal with the Nuggets, they would have likely wound up with the 19th pick in this year's draft (I'm figuring Ron nets them at least 1 or 2 wins, which secures them a playoff spot and by record lands them at 19 or 20). To be sure, players that can help this team will be available at 19 or 20, especially given GP's draft track record.

My question is - can the Kings do better with a draft day trade? If J-Rich was worth a #8 pick, then what is Artest's value? I have really not looked at the desired or needs of the teams drafting in 3-18 spots (I'm figuring 1 and 2 are off limits for Beasley and Rose). Or could Artest and our #12 (and one of our 2nd round picks) be packaged to move up?

Whaddya' think? Has my blind optimism finally gotten the best of me, or could something like this happen?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 10, 2008 8:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

There's always a chance
If the Nuggets lose tonight and end up missing the playoffs they may want Artest after all.  Go Warriors!

by Carl on Apr 10, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm pretty sure we Can't trade Artest.
He's in limbo until July 1st? because of the opt out option.

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2008 12:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Kfan is correcct on this
You can't trade Artest until the July Moratorium is lifted (July 8th or something like that). He becomes eligible to be traded on July 1st, assuming he hasn't opted out, and then of course the matching salary thing (he will make 7.4 mil next year if he doesn't opt out).

Via the Coon on why Artest is considered a FA:

When the trading deadline has passed.  Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 1:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK
Technically correct, but the draft isn't until 6/26, so you're only talking about 4 days before a deal could be officially executed. Excellent point, though. There would certainly have to be assurances in place from Artest and his agent.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 10, 2008 1:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Good luck pulling that off
with tampering charges being filed.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 1:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

without^
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 2:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think
tampering comes into play there, as you are dealing with your own player. You let him and his agent know that you have a deal in place to send him to (insert team here), he's OK with it so he doesn't opt out and then you pull the trigger 7/1. There's no tampering charge where the draft pick is involved - he's an unsigned rook.

On a separate note, pookey, I feel you on the Artest value thing. If kingstv did a mix of good Ron you'd never trade him. If kingstv did a mix of bad Ron no one would sign him. GP must understand that he has to trade both Ron's at the same time. It would be like trading Garcia and K9(woof!) as a package - here's a great young player with value, but you have to take our crap, too. That's why I posed the question. I wonder if the Kings are seriously considering keeping Artest for next year, or if they will finally settle for what the market demands.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 10, 2008 2:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Any deal such as that will have to be
announced ahead of time so each team can be satisfied that they won't get screwed. The Kings did that with Corliss and DC13 in 2000.

And, yeah, there could be tampering if it's done entirely under the table, and IF there is any wrong doing it will be bad juju.

Personally, and I don't see why this would happen on June 28th, as opposed to say July 9th, but I can't really see why any pre-agreed scenario with Artest opting out and getting more money from another team would work either.

The thing about Ron is as a player I don't think he totally translates to winning basketball without certain things (like shot blocking bigs around him) around. I don't think the Kings are better off with him around, and I don't think getting a big like say Darrell Arthur will help him be more effective down the road. He will still have Bad-Ron moments down the road too. That's just who and what he is. Every team in the league is afraid of the guy, with maybe the possible exception of the short term. Petrie doesn't like that as he wants more for a "talent" like Artest. Where is Petrie going to go from here if he doesn't trade Artest? Well, the funny farm perhaps, but more likely the short road to alzheimer's would be my guess.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 2:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Everyone is "Bad" At Times
>>On a separate note, pookey, I feel you on the Artest value thing. If kingstv did a mix of good Ron you'd never trade him. If kingstv did a mix of bad Ron no one would sign him.<<

You could say that about every player in the league and certainly on the Kings. Maybe you can make a Kevin Martin defensive package that just focuses on the guys who have torched him this year, for example.

Artest definitely isn't a perfect player, and shot selection is often one of his defects. But he brings a lot of positives to the table as well.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 10, 2008 10:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What are those positives that make the
team better? Not what are the strenghts of Ron Artest. I asked what makes the team better. Answer the question, and don't avoid it for a change.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 10:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thank You Mr Rogers
I never notice what's going on around me so thanks for that head's up.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 11:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Making the team better
Ron brings scoring, defense, passing and passion to the Kings. He's the only guy on the team that can post up. His steals energize the crowd and the team and often come at pivotal points in the game. He is a shutdown defender that can take an opponent's star player out of the game.

Those skills make the Kings a better team.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 10, 2008 11:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Way to avoid the question
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 11:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Whatever
I think this question has been asked and answered countless times on these boards. We just disagree on Ron Artest's abilities and value to the club.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 11, 2008 8:04 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Easy Solution
Just watch the replay of the fourth quarter of the Hornets game and you should be able to figure it out. As TZ would say, enjoy the visual evidence.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 12, 2008 10:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of Kevin Martin vs Ron Artest
Kevin Martin hasn't gotten into MULTIPLE assault with significant "others" situations. Kevin Martin didn't apply for a job @ Circuit City to get a discount. Kevin Martin didn't ask for time off after promoting his rap album. Kevin Martin didn't hire someone who didn't take care of his dog properly. Kevin Martin doesn't bitch at the coaching staff repeatedly for their lack of will to win. Kevin Martin doesn't say he needs less playing time because he's screwing up John Salmons or Francisco Garcia.

Kevin Martin isn't perfect, and despite the fact that he's a few people's favorite player on this team (I don't know who everyone's favorite player--he is mine), all you wish to do is attack the guy. You don't ever mention positives such as he gets to the line alot which helps the Kings offense, and presumably hurts the opponents defense because a defender has to defend Kmart, and no longer because he's in foul trouble, and then to top it off you don't mention that in terms of dollars vs production Kevin is one of the best in the NBA this season.

Ron is a pain in the ass. He doesn't lead to winning teams. He isn't a franchise player, and yet continues to fancies himself as exactly that. He can play with a bad thumb in a home game, but in a road game, that the Kings are trying to win games for some moronic reason, he won't play because of a thumb?

If it was up to me, and unfortunately it was not, I'd beat your ass to death with a baseball bat and be happy about it. Feel fortunate that's it's not up to me coolcat.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 11, 2008 12:21 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

jesus man
go to church. smoke some weed. turn off the death metal. and for god's sake, throw away that baseball bat

"I hate Ron, I hate Ron," meeauuhhhh. He's a cancer in the side of your franchise, that's cool, we all get it. People live with cancer. Eventually they get rid of that shit. If they're in Cali, they purchase some legal doubage. But don't die cuz of it. That's the last thing you wanna do. Relax, somebody's going to get bounced major in the playoffs, then turn around and start looking for the big gamble. It'll happen. Chillax. Ride the Ronnie wave till it does; at least it's never a dull moment.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Apr 11, 2008 2:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Umm
Relax, somebody's going to get bounced major in the playoffs, then turn around and start looking for the big gamble.
Maybe one of those teams could include the Dubs by virtue of looking to get more of a post presence on the team. It's hard to say, and it is hard to say at this time, but unless that happens does any of this make any sense?

I don't like Artest on this team. I don't enjoy the ride because it's frustrating. I'm all for rebuilding, even with little known players with no talent to build on for the future. With Artest, though, the Kings are stuck. Can't move forward, and they aren't going back. Being stuck in neutral makes a grinding sound, that I for one, am tired of hearing.

I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 11, 2008 12:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Clarity
>>I don't like Artest on this team.<<

Really, Pookey? I'm glad you cleared that up, because I don't think anyone knew you felt that way.

After a slow start, the Pookey Fund is beginning to make some headway. Not in the Peaches-K9 Fund class, but getting there. In fact, it's almost to Curtis James Jackson III status.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 11, 2008 1:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not Kevin vs. Ron, it's Kevin AND Ron
I just lost a long post in response, but the main points of it were:
  • It's not Kevin vs. Ron, it's Kevin AND Ron. I like reading stories when they combine for 50-60 points and the team wins like they did recently against the Rockets and Sonics. The teams are dangerous when they are both clicking. I don't like reading stories that have the Kings losing "despite Kevin Martin" like the Warriors game.
  • I think it's great when Ron doesn't play and the team wins, like against the Nuggets. But that's not the norm. The team does better when he plays than when he doesn't, plain and simple. That's why the TV guys always point out the team's record when he plays and when he doesn't.
  • I've said lots of positive things about Kmart recently. Read my last 30-40 comments and you'll find at least 4-5 praising Kmart, such as ranking him as the Kings top player and saying:
"Martin's game is growing by leaps and bounds and he's starting to take control of games. It's a nice transition to witness."

You can also check out these recent posts:
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/comments/2008/4/5/195943/4782/26#26
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/comments/2008/4/2/102911/4884/27#27
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/comments/2008/4/3/1488/58745/7#7

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 11, 2008 8:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Artest as Enforcer
If it wasn't for Ron Artest stepping in between them, Matt Harpring might have broken Kevin Martin into little bitty pieces earlier this year. I think Kevin will always appreciate that.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 11, 2008 12:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Everyone is "bad" at times
That was in reference to Ron's lack of dependability and not just his on court actions.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 11, 2008 7:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bad Reference
Here's what I responded to:

"On a separate note, pookey, I feel you on the Artest value thing. If kingstv did a mix of good Ron you'd never trade him. If kingstv did a mix of bad Ron no one would sign him."

In other words, a remix of game action. That's what I responded to. Everyone has bad plays and good plays that could be packaged in a video.

Your other points certainly have some validity.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Apr 11, 2008 9:02 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Allow me to clear it up
If you read the entire post you would notice that my question was in regards to Artest's value. That's all that I was driving at and that's all that I was interested in (especially from pookey's perspective).

Sorry about the confusion.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 11, 2008 9:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Two legends*
go toe to toe, head to head, and shockingly, Peaches comes away with his first Googlefight win.

* In their own minds.

God bless you, Corliss. You always played as though you knew how expensive my tickets were. -section214

by KK on Apr 11, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The +/- Thing
Will someone explain this valuation to me? Thanks.

by NYCFan on Apr 10, 2008 7:25 AM PDT   0 recs

Plus / Minus (+ / -)
This is the valuation of whether the team is plus or minus in score while that player is on the floor. For example, if the Kings are down by 3 when Garcia comes into the game and up by 4 when he next exits, he is a +7 for that run.

+ / - is a neat little stat, but a lot of it depends on who you are on the floor with. I think that it's a reasonable contributor to evaluating one's performance over the course of the season, but the game by game numbers can sometimes be misleading.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 10, 2008 7:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks. Follow-up question
Feasably, a losing team's best player, playing more minutes than anyone else on the team woudl then have a negative number, no?

by NYCFan on Apr 10, 2008 9:00 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure
You'd basically use that stat for comparing players on the same team.  

I think there are some modified plus/minus stats out there that take this stuff (lineups, opponents) into consideration as well.

Grant "Peaches" Napear - uniting Kings fans for too damn long.

by otis29 on Apr 10, 2008 9:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes
For example, Martin was a -12 the other night while Stephen Jackson was a -2, even though Martin had the much better game.

Douby was a +8. Was he really 20 points better than Martin that night. Uh, no.

I think that over a season (or even a month) you can pick up some trends, but the game by game numbers are much more volatile.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 10, 2008 9:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Section
You're going to be very dangerous when you learn the sabermetrics side of basketball.
I am the stone that the builder refused I am the visual, the inspiration That made Lady Sing the Blues..I'm the spark that makes your idea bright...

by pookeyguru on Apr 10, 2008 2:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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