Pretend You're From Toronto, Eh?
by section214 on Jun 20, 2008 11:37 AM PDT
in NBA Draft
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PrintUPDATE: Some Raps fans discuss this trade idea here. Short version: they like this one better, but still not much. They appear to think Ford's more valuable than the rest of the world does. (- TZ)
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Pretend that you are the Toronto Raptors, or at least one of their fans. You get free health care and the warmth in knowing that your flag hangs in every NBA arena.
You're getting ready to ship out T.J. Ford. There is a rumored deal that has Boris Diaw coming to you for Ford and your #17 pick. Diaw is slated to make $9 million a year for the next three years, and he has an option for a 4th year at $9 million. Last year Diaw was an 8.8 pt., 4.6 reb., 3.9 ast. guy. Diaw is 26.
But before you can pull the trigger on that deal, the Kings come calling. They offer you John Salmons, Quincy Douby and one of their 2nd round picks for Ford, without asking for the #17 pick. Salmons is slated to make $5.1/$5.5/$5.8 over the next three years, while Douby will make $1.4/$2.2 million over the next two years, with a 3rd year qualifying offer set at $3.1 million. Last year Salmons was a 12.5 pt., 2.7 reb., 2.2 ast. guy. Salmons is 28.
To recap, the Kings deal is roughly $16 million cheaper in contract (if Diaw exercises his 4th year option and you don't retain Douby for a 3rd year) and you get to keep your pick.
So put on your Raptors hats, and answer the following poll question:
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I think the Raptors and Suns will end up doing something bigger like Ford, Kapono and #17 for Diaw and Barbosa.
This trade makes more sense than any other non-sense out there. Colangelo liked Salmons, true but as a Kings fan I’m not ready to give up on Douby especially after his 32 point explosion in a meaningless game vs. the Lakers. I’d like to give Douby a 3rd year to work things out and then decide whether to tender a qualifying offer to him.
BOOK IT!
That meaningless game
was pretty much the only flash Douby has shown since he’s been here. He’s a camp-on-the-perimeter-till-someone-feeds-me-the-ball-and-I-shoot kind of guy. He doesn’t move without the ball. He doesn’t create. He doesn’t pass or handle particularly well, and he’s been given plenty of chances to prove he can do those things.
I just don’t see any compelling reason to keep him, and if we get Ford, why not do this?
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 20, 2008 12:09 PM PDT reply actions
Are the Raps so stupid? (I hope so)
Diaw is overvalued. Suns’ uptempo offense and Nash made his numbers look great just like Kidd did with Moore. The weird thing is that it’s generally acknowledged that the Raptors are one of the softest and non-athletic teams in the league (with the exception of Moon). Adding Diaw makes no sense skill-wise or contract-wise. The Maggette-Ford or Calderon deal which is being talked about for months is much better for them. We know Ford is very injury prone but a trade like this is definitely a gift to the Suns.
Now about trading Salmons and Douby… that would be even worse for the Raps. They already have some good SGs (Parker, Delifno) who are not much worse than Salmons. Douby? Don’t get me wrong but he shouldn’t even play in the NBA. As soon as his contract expires he’ll get a couple of other chances (I hope in other teams) and some day he’ll end up playing for 10-day contracts or in Europe. The only “advantage” for the Raps in this trade is that they’ll get a much younger SG (Parker is 33) but still it would be pointless for them.
Spitballing
Would Toronto prefer Brad Miller for Ford and Garbajosa’s $4.5 million contract (they’re buying him out but I think the contract still counts against the cap)? Toronto gets the high post ability of Miller to place next to Bosh, and Bargnani can split time between the 3 and the 4.
Or Brad and Salmons (or Moore) for Ford and Rasho Nesterovic, who will have one year left at $8.4 million after he exercises his option?
Again, just spitballing.
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Well
I still look for the Clippers and the Raptors to pull the trigger. I mean Ford for Maggette makes way too much sense, IMO. The Raptors need another wing scorer and Maggette could be that and the Clips need a point guard BAD.
We need a point guard BAD as well especially if both Augustin and Westbrook are off the board by the time we pick at 12 (very likely). Beno’s resigning is still very up in the air and I probably wouldn’t offer Beno more than 3 years.
BOOK IT!
Down here...
....in Phoenix, the Raps-Suns trade is getting really significant talk on the radio. Porter loved Ford when he was in Milwaukee and Colangelo loved Diaw when he was in Phoenix.
The only real hiccup I see is that the Suns want to move up in the draft not backwards. I still say its Tor-Phx before Raps-Kings.
How about a three-way?
Salmons, Ford, & #17 to Phoenix
Barbosa to Kings
Diaw, Douby and Kings 2nd to Toronto
Phoenix is looking for a small to play big minutes with G. Hill. They don’t like Diaw because he’s inconsistent and soft defensively so maybe Salmons would fit the bill. Toronto picks up a second and Douby along with Diaw. Both of these teams attempted to sign Salmons two years ago so I think that one or the other is a possibility. Salmons, Douby and a #2 for Barbosa sounds pretty fair if the Suns are replacing his minutes with Ford.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Very Creative
Just remember, Barbosa is really more of a 2 than a 1 (3.5 to 1 shot to assist ratio over his career). But he sure would give us some punch off the bench.
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I would never want hi in the starting line-up but....
Barbosa would match-up perfectly with Garcia’s skill set, allowing the Kings to really pour it on offensively for 48 minutes. Plus dealing Salmons comes from a position of depth. Just think of Beno, Barbosa, Martin, Artest and Moore in a small, quick line-up. Sure they would suck defensively but they could score with the best of them.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Sounds Great to Me
Barbosa could be an all-star or close, and we lose next to nothing by making the deal. We also improve the chemistry of the team. Sounds like a win-win to me. If we resign Beno, we have a solid backcourt with a point guard, a combo guard and an all-star at the 2. Garcia can play three positions, so we improve our depth.
I think there could be more of shakeup in the West next season than some folks think, and the Kings could be in the mix with a couple slick moves like this. A scary rebounder-shot blocker is next on the list.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jun 20, 2008 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Follow that up with
Wizards S&T Gilbert for Brad Miller and SAR after Gil realizes his free agency is going to all hell because nobody wants to spend money on him.
Now you look like
Arenas/Udrih
Martin/Barbosa
Artest/Garcia
Draftee(Randolph)/Moore/KT [blegh]
Hawes/Moore/Draftee (Ajinka/McGee)
The only thing is you are getting Gil for about 5 years with 17 mil each. I dunno if he is worth that much. But you do have the highest scoring backcourt in the league. Barbosa/Gilbert/Martin gets you 70 a night easy. Plus factor in 15 for Ron and maybe ten each for Cisco and Hawes, thats plenty enough to win. Also Gil is a solid defensive player. You never know.
by VenomySnicket on Jun 21, 2008 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions
In the mindset of a Toronto fan...
Neither trade has value enough for Ford. The Diaw trade sounds horrific and the trade with the Kings sounds just a bit better. To get a guy like Ford, we’d probably need to ship out Salmons/Garcia.
Perhaps
But Ford’s value may be tempered by his physical health history (much in the same way that Artest’s value is tempered by his mental health history). It all comes down to what combination of talent and contract and draft picks (plus or minus) Toronto prefers, as it seems to be coming down to guys like Diaw, Corey Maggette, Udonis Halem, Anderson Varejao, Salmons or Moore.
Artest for Ford?
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If Ford was a healthy 26 year old with no possible career threatening injuries then sure...
You have to look at Ford as a major risk/reward pick-up. he could go down in training camp and never play again or he could play out his contract averaging 75 games a year. Injuries can happen to anyone but this guy has a proven track record so his value is less than what it might be if healthy. Secondly, the Raptors have two point guards, both of which have demanded that they start and play starter minutes. The Raptors are trading from a position of necessity which when matched with Fords injury history leaves the Salmons, Douby and 2nd round pick trade pretty even.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
I understand that...
...but it seems the Raps fan thinks Ford’s value is inflated. It’s a huge risk to take on someone with 2 fused vertebrae. His value isn’t a direct correlation of his play. There are HUGE other factors involved.
Otis is the reply police and I haven't seen him today so I think your safe.
The only thing that’s driving up the cost of TJ Ford is the NBA shortage of good point guards. If I have the choice between Megette; who I’m going to have to pony up 8-10 mill a year in extension money after this season (and a history of knee injuries), Udonis Haslem; an undersized 4 to play 15-20 minutes a game(Chris Bosh?), Boris Diaw; a guy who has only had one good season in an absolutely crazy offense that inflates every bodies stats and who is owed 36 million over the next 4 years; I think Salmons might be intriguing.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Maybe...
...I am the only one, but I would rather have Beno and 2nd rder/cheap FA to back him up than have someone with serious health issues. In this scenario, it isn’t like we would be giving up one of the K9/Reef contracts. This isn’t a draft for PGs and it seems to me that Ford would be a desperation move to grab one. I’d rather be excited in 2010, 2011, 2012, etc with our PG than to settle for Ford now.
I'd have no problem
giving up role players like Salmons or Moore for the risk/reward of Ford. I’d even deal Artest for him under the circumstances. By the time the deals are done it’s garbage in / garbage out from a contract standpoint, and what are we really giving up?
And obtaining Ford does not mean that you would still not grab Westbrook or Augustin if they were available. It just means that those guys wouldn’t be thrust into the starting lineup. Interesting to note (or not) that Augustin and Ford work out together and are supposedly kind of tight with each other.
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I'd rather....
....not have Augustin or Westbrook. Neither are star-caliber and neither will move us to the next tier. Beno is and will be better than both.
I still want Speights in the 1st rd. I can’t understand why people are held up on that issue.
Please Explain
What Speights has done that assures his place as a better NBA player than Augustin or Westbrook.
Speights may become the best of the bunch, but Westbrook and Augustin have at least as good of a chance. Westbrook has been seen going as early as 4, Augustin as early as 6. I don’t think that I’ve seen Speights earlier than 12.
All of that said, I’ll be thrilled if GP determines that Speights is the choice. But I have not seen anything that would have me write off Augustin or Westbrook.
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Its a need...
....issue. We don’t need a PG with regards to whats available. I want someone who alleviates a more immediate need. A banger like Speights. The PGs in this draft are subpar and I feel Beno is better than any of them sans Rose.
Projected draft pick doesn’t mean much to me. Bargnani was a #1 and he hasn’t amounted to anything. I want who is best for the team regardless of draft projection.
I can respect
that your opinion is that there are no viable PG’s in the draft, though I disagree. But if we’re talking need, last time I checked we have zero point guards on our roster.
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DJ seems like a boom or bust pick
DJ’s height worries me despite his good wingspan, so few 5’10/5’11 guards make it in the NBA. He seems like Jameer Nelson V 2.0, which could be a good thing or a bad things depending on which team he goes to.
If you want to trade Artest for Ford ...
.. I don’t think it’s Artest’s “mental health” you should be questioning.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jun 20, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
You're entitled to your opinion -
No matter how wrong or misguided you may be.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Wrong or misguided
in your opinion, of course. We’re not dealing with facts here, just opinions.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jun 20, 2008 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to agree with CC or anything...
...but I’d have to agree that if we end up dealing Artest, I’d want more than a mediocre PG with a fair to middling shot at being out of the league due to injuries in the next few years.
A lonely Kings fan in a sea of gold and purple...
Additionally..
...my comments reflect what I would personally want – not what we are likely to get in reality. :)
A lonely Kings fan in a sea of gold and purple...
Fair to middling?
He was 6 in PER last year at PG. When healthy he is far better than (say) Udrih. His health is certainly an issue, as is Ron’s availibility to play, as has been noted on several occasions.
I’d love an all star for Ron, too. Ain’t gonna happen. We couldn’t get a #20 pick and Linas Kleiza for him back in February. What has changed?
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Just to Clarify
He didn’t say Ford’s skills were fair to middling: he said there was a “fair to middling shot at (Ford) being out of the league due to injuries in the next few years.”
I am not sure Ford is “mediocre,” but he does seems like the kind of guy who could be sitting in a suit next to Shareef a lot if we got him.
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jun 20, 2008 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Given
Artest’s actual value, or the fact that Salmons or Moore are basically role players, I’m not sure that it is that much of a risk to deal any of those guys for Ford, unless you see us resigning Artest. And since his agent has already floated $13-14 miliion a year out there as a fair number, I say no thank you.
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Hey now!
I only harass multiple offenders within the same thread.
So bite me. :)
"Boo Lakers! Boo Kobe! Go Kings! Go Giants! Boo Dodgers!" - my 5 year-old daughter - 4/15/08
Ford is BYC as is Boris Diaw until July 1st basically
So that’s a problem getting a deal done with any draft pick. That gives Geoff Petrie a chance to snag Ford if that is indeed one of his opportunities this summer.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
However
I did a trade machine on ESPN, and it isn’t a valid straight up trade Ford for Diaw despite both being BYC. If it was a normal trade it could be done straight up, but because both are BYC that changes things.
The rule of thumb for trades is simple. You have to be within 125% plus 100K to make a trade. For instance: If you trade a million dollar player, the most money you can take back is 1.25 mil, and the least you can take back is 775K.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
?
should that be “and the least money your trade partner can offer you if they are also over the cap is 775K, but if they are under then you can take back as little as you want (including a draft pick, which assumes “nothing” till draft).”? I’m not nitpicking, I’m actually curious – in my defense I bring forth as example the Jason Richardson trade.
Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA
Bingo sir
You can trade your cap space for a player. Jason Richardson is probably the best known example of that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
2 quick questions for TZ
First off why wouldn’t a Ford for Diaw trade work up? After all they’re both BYC, and both, I believe, have trade values in half that are still 125% + 100K right?
The other is another fairly simple question. If I’m golden State and wanting to use my 9.9 million trade exception, then could I use it on Boris Diaw with his 9 million salary despite his BYC? I mean, the exception covers his whole salary, but does the exception only take on Trade Value too? This is an email to Larry Coon territory I believe.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Good questions
Also – when does a players rookie contract turn into his full contract for trading purposes? July 1?
Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA
You mean his first contract after his rookie deal? (Like K-Mart’s extension?) July 1 after the first year at his new payrate.
You're going to be doing alot of explaining on what the PPP provision is this upcoming year
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
BYC comp is ridiculous. It counts as half the salary going out but the full amount going in … so if both guys were making $9 million (not exact, just for explanatory purposes), the ledger would read that Toronto has $4.5 m going out and $9 m coming in, and the same for PHX.
I know that TZ
The problem I have is could a trade exception actually be used on a player who is BYC? (I would think so since the exception is for a contract of a certain size.) Then again since BYC is about player trade value in a trade, it’s hard to say. That’s what my real question. (Again, I already know how BYC works. And I understand why it exists. I think it’s a good rule, but then again maybe I’m alone.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
The answer is simple
We ban all trade rumors involving BYC players – far too complicated.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I like that--Either way shooting an email off to Larry Coon might be the wisest course of action
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Always with the practical response...
I’d like to know, too. Learning is fun!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
You have the funny response patent
Ripping you off gets kinda old. :P
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Why would you be any different? I consider it a positive point you know the basic point of BYC.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Should work fine, regardless of BYC
Since BYC was (correct me if I’m wrong) primarily installed to prevent teams from using a single player to match salaries in a trade (ridiculous example: sign Douby after his rookie contract to a 1-year $20M contract and trade him for KG) it shouldn’t matter.
The rule states that incoming salary is ACTUAL salary and not BYC . . . so as long as your trade exception is for more than the ACTUAL salary there shouldn’t be any problems.
BYC players aren’t untradeable . . . it just seems that way most of the time.
No Way
This trade sounds alright, giving toronto another 6th man for a quality starter but it won’t work because salmons doesn’t like Toronto.
A few years back he didn’t want to come here, probably won’t change his mind.
Salmons doesn’t exactly have a say in where he goes, does he?
The reason he didn’t end up in Toronto is because Petrie contacted his agent and offered slightly more money. All the rest is fog.
That's not the way I remember it.
Salmons had already burned his bridge with the Raptors and GP came calling late and over paid for a player with no where else to go. Salmons had also backed out of a deal with the Suns shortly before this incident.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
16.4 million reasons
for Salmons to go to Toronto if traded.
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TIRED OF THIS NON-SENSE
IM TIRED OF YALL CONSTANTLY BLASTING QUINCY DOUBY LIKE HE’S A BUM.. THE KID GOT GAME, CANT YALL SEE THAT? WHEN REGGIE IDIOT FINALLY DECIDED TO PLAY HIM, HE ENDED THE YEAR AVERAGING 14.4PPG.. IT’S THE COACH, NOT DOUBY.. REGGIE THEUS IS NOT AN NBA COACH.. WE HIRED A GUY THAT HAD ONE GOOD YEAR AT NEW MEXICO STATE, THE WAC CONFERENCE.. WHAT HAS HE DONE OR ACCOMPLISHED TO EVEN BE A NBA COACH? DOUBY HAS WHA IT TAKES TO BE A SOLID PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. THE KID SHOWED IT AGAINST THE LAKERS. BUT HOW CAN HE PROGRESS AS A PLAYER WHEN HE HAS A COACH THATS CONSTANTLY GOING AGAINST HIM? MARK MY WORDS, WHEN YOU SEE HIM DO HIS THING NEXT YEAR, I DONT WANT TO SEE NONE OF YALL ALL OF A SUDDEN BECOME QUINCY DOUBY FANS…
Douby
Douby has played two years under two different coaches. That certainly did not help him. The issue seems to be that he is not a prototypical point guard. He wasn’t in college and he has not been in the pros. He looks like he could be a prolific scorer in the right situation. But I do not think that will occur in Sacramento, because as a two guard he is stuck behind Kevin Martin. I think that he could really be a contributor in places like Phoenix or Golden State and a lot of other places.
I don’t think any of us enjoyed watching Anthony Johnson getting PG minutes down the stretch last year. But the fact that he did may speak less about Theus’ coaching ability and more to the fact that Douby just hasn’t become and NBA point guard. I think it’s also fair to say that every one of us would love to be proven wrong on this. We would love for Quincy Douby to show up at summer camp and really run the KIngs on offense, make his teammates better, show leadership. As it stands right now, this roster has no point guard. I think that it is safe to say that we would all love for Quincy Douby to fill a PG slot. But I think that he is an NBA two guard, and he will need to go somewhere else to flourish (or put out a contract on Martin).
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
TJ FORD
I think he’s worth the risk if we can make the right deal. Since I want to SAVE RON ARTEST I think we need to loosen up the logjam where we can (getting rid of KT just won’t happen) and try to make a JSalmons + trade to Toronto. I’m not sure we lose anything in this deal IF we could make it happen. If we keep Beno, get TJ and add some athleticism at the 4, well, I think we’re on our way and would certainly be a playoff team (45 + wins?) next year.
eternal skeptical optimist
Section 214, your comment hit everything on the spot.. But you know whats also crazy, how the Kings are looking to draft Russell Westbrook. A kid with that can barely handle the ball & barely shoot. He’s not a half court player. He’s all fast break and dunk the ball. He can’t create a shot for himself, so what makes people think he can create one for others and run a team? how is he better fit to run the team? i say resign beno, beno did an awesome job this year… And get a solid power forward or small forward in the draft.. If you asked me, we have alot of solid guards on the team.. Bringing in Russell Westbrook is a bad idea. I like Augustine, he looks like he can run a NBA team… But first step is to resin Beno. He’s young and he knows Reggie’s system… But Geoff P is a great GM and I have faith he’ll turn this team around…
Westbrook
If the Kings are crazy for considering Westbrook at #12, then how crazy are the Sonics, Knicks, and Clippers, who have all expressed some level of interest at #4, #6, and #7? And I guarantee you that none of those teams would take Quincy Douby for their pick. That dosesn’t make them right. But the KIngs would have been foolish not to at least look at Westbrook (amongst the 60+ other players that they have seen).
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Doesn't fill any needs?
Unless you’re sure he can play decent PG in this league – the Kings needs to address thier other needs, athletic size. (for which there seems to be many options)
eternal skeptical optimist
Honestly, they are crazy for considering him. Westbrook is coming into th league with way less tools then Douby had coming into the league and they’re telling me he’s better fit to run this team? Or any team at that? Only skill he has better is his jumping ability.. If you ask me, he’s going to turn out like Shannon Brown… Cleveland drafted Brown with the same intentions and we clearly seen how much of a waste that was.. But am I making any sense or am I just talking crazy? When I look at Douby, I see him as a Jason Terry, possible a Gilbert Areanas type of player.. Worst case scenario, Eddie House.. The TJ Ford trade proposed wouldnt be a good idea if you asked me though.. I say resign Beno and get a solid big man.
whoah!!
QD = Gilbert Arenas?!! I know you like -or are him – but come on! Still, I think QD deserves more of a chance. To get TJ out of Toronto I’d say goodbye and good luck though.
(I don’t know how to spell ‘whoah’ at the moment.)
eternal skeptical optimist
You telling me he doesnt have potiential to be like a Gilbert Areanas type scorer? I guess its because yall just never got to see him like I had in college.. The kid shoots lights out.. When I watched the Lakers game where he had 32points, it reminded me of his Rutger days.. And no this isnt Douby, im getting annoyed at people saying that now…
Just one question then,
I guess its because yall just never got to see him like I had in college.. The kid shoots lights out..
And no this isnt Douby, im getting annoyed at people saying that now…
Where the HELL have you been for the last two years if you are so high on this kid?
Everybody on this board wants to see Q succeed, nobody has ever really been down on him. He’s been the topic of several discussions over his first two years on the Kings and you say that you’ve followed him all through his college and pro careers?
Then, once again, may I ask: WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE LAST TWO YEARS?
The scab is off, the wound bleeds again.
-lietothegirls
College?
This isn’t college – its the real show.. Like I said though, he deserves another look considering the coaching changes and general team turmoil.
eternal skeptical optimist
TZ
Thanks for linking the Raps fans comments via the update in the post. My favorite? The one that wanted to know who was the dumbass that thought this trade up? Success!!! I’m now a dumbass north of the border, too!
USA!!! USA!!!
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by section214 on Jun 23, 2008 6:52 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
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