Last Shot at D-Lee
by smgmatt on Jun 29, 2008 12:07 AM PDT
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PrintI started this out as a post in the "Find us a PG" thread, but it started to get a life of it's own . . . so I figured I'd throw it in it's own FanPost and see what happened. This wasn't initially about David Lee, but I realized that it started looking that way, which is where the title came from. I initially checked the Knicks Salaries pages when I read another rumor about Lee to Charlotte for Felton, which is how I ended up here (a great note from that link, apparently D'Antoni isn't D-Lee fan, which is probably why he's even available . . . he was an Isiah favorite). If I mention anything in here that's already been addressed I apologize in advance (as I said, I was in the process of catching up when I started this post originally). With all that said, let's go...
Ok, so after too much time looking at salary pages from ShamSports & HoopsHype, I came up with these all-or-nothing gambles (links via RealGM since ESPN won't let you trade Artest until July 1, when these deals would obviously need to take place)...
Option 1:
Miller, Artest, & Williams
for
Lee, Marbury, & Protected Future 1st Rounder
I know this isn't the PG anyone here wants, but he's an ending contract, and he can just stay at home waiting to find out if he's in a deadline deal for someone else or not (at least he'll have something to do). This also brings in the David Lee and another GP draft piece, while giving NYK a group of players that makes them relevant again without jeopardizing their LBJ hopes (Miller & Williams will be gone, Artest will either be gone or used to help lure him, and they won't be paying Lee when his extension comes up).
Proposed Lineup: Garcia?/Singletary, Martin/Douby, Salmons/Garcia, Lee/Thompson, Hawes/Moore
Draft Pick: Top 5 (no PG to speak of, lots of youth . . . don't forget NYK's pick, too)
Option 2:
Miller, & Artest
for
Lee, Crawford, & Jeffries
Same reasoning as above, except now we get Crawford (not ideal but much better than Starbury), along with his & Jeffries' 2010 salaries (going against the GP mantra, but again, we net D-Lee). If GP liked Crawford I could see this being a possibility, but the roughly $17M in 2010 could be the deal-breaker.
Proposed Lineup: Crawford/Singletary, Martin/Garcia, Salmons/Jeffries, Lee/Thompson, Hawes/Moore
Draft Pick: Top 12 (still better than the dregs of the East, buy probably still shy of the playoffs in the West)
Option 3:
Miller, Artest, Moore, & SAR
for
Lee, Marbury, Rose, & Balkman/Robinson/Future 1st/Future 2nd?
So I'm guessing this is the tough one for most people. I call this one the Pookey Special, because this is a pure salary dump; Starbury & Rose have Expiring Contracts this year, while Miller, Moore & SAR expire next year. The Kings trade most of the parts that will probably not be involved in the team that makes the next playoff run, and basically just pushes the salary timetable up a year. Do you want Marion? Brand? I don't know who else would be available, but if the Kings have cap space then maybe a Richardson-type dump could happen, or a multiple First Round Draft Picks for taking a bad contract away (a la Kurt Thomas) could happen. Having cap space would give GP a lot of options, and that can't be a bad thing. If this deal makes the Kings worse next year, then you also have a higher draft pick for him to work with as well (to get that long-term PG, perhaps?).
NYK considers it because they're getting 3 of the 4 best players in the trade, dumping bad chemistry players, and still not affecting their 2010 plans (i.e. LBJ). I don't know what would be offered as filler at the end (contracts work fine 4-for-3), but I threw Balkman & Robinson on there, because the trade should still work, and draft picks don't affect trade salaries so they're there as well. I'm sure many (most?) will demand a prospect or 1st rounder to be included (the Kings are giving up 3 starters from last year's squad, after all) . . . but I think that this deal might be good for the Kings even with a 2nd rounder (or nothing!) added. Again, this is a salary dump proposal to speed up the rebuild in Sacramento.
Proposed Lineup: Garcia?/Singletary, Martin/Douby, Salmons/Garcia, Lee/Thompson, Hawes/K9?
--Possible Additions: PG-Robinson, SF-Balkman
Draft Pick: Top 3 (this would be our best shot at winning the Draft Lottery, plus potentially more picks from NYK)
So there it is; let me know what you think. It's admittedly a little bit out there . . . but with GP running the show that sounds about right.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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NO CHANCE NOW
1. Do you know who the new NY GM is? (hint: he came the from Indiana Pacers)
2. If Marbury EVER puts on a Kings Jersey I may go on a shooting spree.
3. What the do we need another PF for now?
4. The Knicks want to free up space for 2010 as well
5. I just don’t give away BMiller without receiving some VALUE in return, its not his salary, its K9s and SARs that are the problem. Miller will have some real value by the trading deadline in Feb., when he’s had more time to coach Hawes up.
6. Its (unfortunately – because he’s such a good guy) MM who will be taking away the needed minutes from Hawes, Thompson and Williams (who I haven’t given up on yet)
7. See item #1
eternal skeptical optimist
I disagree
1. I don’t think it’s a given either way as to whether they would take a flier on Artest. He’s got an expiring contract, so the risk is minimal.
2. I mentioned this, but there is always the chance that they don’t tell him to stay home, so I understand your concern.
3. You just mentioned in another thread that the Kings need more rebounding, and hoped that Thompson would fix this problem for the Kings. In the proposals above, Miller’s gone (potentially Moore as well) . . . are you ready to leave our 4 & 5 in the hands of Thompson & Hawes with the likes of Williams, SAR, K9 as the primary backups? Getting someone to put ahead of Thompson allows him to work he way in easier, and if Thompson turns out to be the piece the Kings build around at PF, Lee becomes a S&T asset.
4. I mentioned this multiple times, and none of these deals hurt their cap space in 2010. This is a non-issue.
5. Obviously K9 & SAR would be better to get rid of, but I’m being realistic here. The value that we’d be getting is a highly valued young prospect (Lee) and potentially a draft pick (if GP can get one thrown in). That’s kind of the point of this idea, if we put all our assets together, we might maximize their individual values. Think of the Mayo for Love & Miller trade that just happened. Most believe that Memphis got the single best player in that deal, and using that “logic” (whether or not you agree with the “assessment”) the Kings would be getting the best player for them moving forward, (a potential all-star? what’s his ceiling, actually? I really don’t know) at the 4, as well as the cap space to start making real moves that fit with the rebuilding situation the Kings are currently in.
6. Moore’s gone in one deal, Miller’s gone in all of them. If Miller’s gone, Hawes will get more minutes, Mikki or no. Again, a non-issue.
7. Again, a good GM will do whatever they need to do to improve their team. The NYK fanbase wouldn’t turn on him if he acquired Artest, so if he thinks Artest can help, what’s the risk with an Expiring Contract? Don’t you think that D’Antoni & Walsh want to make a splash and get to the playoffs in Year 1? Bringing in Miller & Artest makes them instantly relevant without giving up much (remember, D’Antoni is reportedly low on Lee, so if he rides the pine what’s he really worth to them?).
Great questions, thanks!
Petrie
won’t take on any contracts that will screw up his cap space for 2010, the Summer of the Great Reloading.
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 29, 2008 8:50 AM PDT reply actions
The Catch
David Lee is also going to need to be paid after this year, which will also impact 2010. Lee is a steal at his current salary but what is he once you have to pay him $8-10 million a year. I like Lee but his current value relative to his current salary makes him a nearly impossible deal unless we’re willing to also take back crap in the deal. I don’t think that he’s worth the crap.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I don't get this
And this is not directed solely at you LPA, something similar has been posted many times by numerous people. Petrie has said his current plans are to have cap space for ‘10. Petrie usually keeps his plans close to the vest, so I’m not sure this is really his plan. He may just say this to lower fan’s expectations for the next few years to a reasonable level. But even if this is truly his plan.
Do you really think that if we could get Dwight Howard this summer, but it would require taking on a bad contract that doesn’t expire until ‘11, GP wouldn’t take it? CP3? Amare? Where do you draw the line?
Now I realize that none of those guys are likely to be available, but if there is one player that could change those plans it makes the blanket statement false. It should become something more like, “I don’t think that David Lee is enough of a talent to get Petrie to change his ‘10 cap space plans.”
My point is “he won’t take on contracts that expire after ‘10” is not a given, and thus shouldn’t be an argument on its own.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 29, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I did a poor job of getting my point across
I don’t see any package of players coming out of New York to justify the acquisition of Lee, given the fact that you are going to have to probably pay him $50+ million over the next five years starting the following season. The fact that he becomes a fair value player in a year negates all of the other crappy contract that you would have to take back. While New York would love to unload Marbury, I don’t think that they would take Artest/’Reef/K9(woof!) for Marbury/D.Lee, and that’s probably the only way I would do the deal.
As far as 2010 is concerned, I have always had my suspicions that GP is really loading up for ‘09, where the expiring contracts on the books would make the Kings a potential player in a KG or Gasol type deal for a big time soon to be free agent. The benefit of such a deal is that we would have that player’s Bird rights, so we could pay them more than anyone else, a la Chris Webber.
Sorry that I didn’t make myself clearer the first time. It was a caffeine free posting.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
My post was in responds to LPA
not you. I got your point the first time, and a good one it was.
But the “GP won’t take back any contracts messing up his ‘10 plan” type quote has been used by you in the past I believe. So it would apply to you in those cases. ;p
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jun 29, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
And I agree with you
If the player and contract is right, Petrie will make the deal, 2010 be damned.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Absolutely
But we’re talking about somebody trading us a franchise player for…. what exactly?
Expirings? Not this year.
Our coveted Hydra? Um, no.
Artest and filler? It would have to be a LOT of filler to get franchise player talent in return, and it would have to be one of the four teams in the league who might actually consider having Artest on their roster.
We just don’t have the trade pieces to make that kind of deal without giving up part of our core of young talent (Martin, Garcia, Hawes, Thompson), which I can’t see us doing.
In short, nobody wants what we’re willing to trade badly enough to give us real talent in return. That was my main point.
Now if some GM out there takes a bunch of stupid pills and then gets on the phone with Petrie…
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jun 29, 2008 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm saying it on record that the Knicks will be a player in 2010 because they've been aiming for that for about 2 years now
The Kings won’t be cuz too many teams will have cash, and the team with players like the Raps with Bosh will end up re-signing him anyway.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
yep
But I say again that Walsh will NEVER trade for Artest. BMiller? Hmmmm, maybe. It allows him to shake things up and still not mess with his 2010 plans. But he needs to GET RID of some of his bad contracts. He has no illusions about ‘winning now’. So I don’t think a trade works with NY anymore at all. From either side.
Artest works to a team who wants to ‘win now’. Those are the teams that would be interested.
/>Detroit (believe it or not - the fans would get over it)
76s - maybe
Cleveland (I know, two SFs - but maybe)
Bulls - definately (Heinrich - God NO! Deng + or Duhan +? hmmmm)There are others, but I’m convinced NY is no longer in Ron’s reach, Walsh will never forgive him + he needs to DUMP salary, something we won’t be a part of.
eternal skeptical optimist
Not Sold on Lee
Being the lone motivated player on a crappy team shouldn’t inspire so much attention.
as a former Knick fan
D Lee is a fan fav but not much more and has next to no offensive game. I would keep what you have and let the contracts expire before taking ANYTHING on the knicks roster
Agree...
no reason to shake up the team and move useful players that don’t have horrible contracts (I do not consider Brad’s contract horrible, and think he can be an asset on his own) for a mediocre player makes no sense. What is Lee’s ceiling? IMO, it’s what we see now – a high energy guy that will be, at best, a backup.role-player on any team capable of winning a championship.
FINISH
By re-iterting my first point.
What the hell would we do with another PF now?
eternal skeptical optimist
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