Bee: Kings to offer Beno full midlevel exception for five years
Numerous sources close to the team said the Kings were prepared to offer Udrih their full midlevel exception (approximately $6 million) in a five-year deal.
over 3 years ago
Carl
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Mistake
I think this is a mistake. The Kings are cutting the 2010 free agent money by $6 million. Obviously the Kings feel like Beno is the point guard of the future. Beno is a good player, but the Kings are once again mortgaging their cap future on a guy who is average to above average at his position. That’s four MLE players in five years on a team that’s supposed to be rebuilding. I could live with a three year deal, but a five year deal just doesn’t make sense to me at all. You don’t win championships with a team full of $5-$6 million players.
It’s a mistake while other options are in play. After that … I don’t know. At least it means Petrie can’t spend the mid-level on another Mikki.
Petrie's track record with the MLE...
...is his worst blemish as GM. He’s consistently signed guys for too long/too much, with the possible exception of Bonzi Wells, who, thank our lucky stars, was too greedy to stay. Petrie doled out the MLE to two hydra heads (SAR, Mikki) and to Salmons, who might be the best of the bunch, but he’s a little too rich for a bench player who can’t play well off the bench. I’m not bashing these guys. SAR is a quality human being and did help before the knee problems that scared off New Jersey came to pass. I do like Salmons and hope he can figure out how to make an impact off the bench, and Mikki plays with passion at least. Beno might be another fine role player, but I’d seriously be throwing the kitchen sink at Gil Arenas instead. But hey, maybe Beno will spurn us to sign in NY for less because he’s enamored of D’Antoni or commit career suicide and play for the Clips. We can dream.
Beware certitude.
How then would a team do a sign and Trade?
I might also add that Jessica Alba is a championship piece, if he thinks Ron is too, more power to him. ;p -Kfan in Korea
i think...
...you need to have a player’s Bird rights while they are an FA or a restricted FA. We don’t have Beno’s Bird rights in this case.
Beware certitude.
Here is the answer to that question (about the earliest you can trade a FA--and the answer is Dec 15th in shorter terms)
For three months or until December 15th of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 76). Interestingly, however, it is unclear whether this rule prevents a player who has been signed-and-traded from being traded agiain prior to three months/December 15 (see question number 80).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
In case someone moans about lack of attributing sources it's Larry Coon's FAQ (that is until I want to spend a month of reading the CBA after years of studying legalese)
Look under question Question 85 for more answers on when players can’t be traded.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
But Beno may actually be another Mikki
Beno is not a power forward, but he is a Mikki in the sense that he’s sort of a middling player at his position. I’d rather take my chances on a guy with more upside, or give Beno a shorter deal to prove 12 points and 4 assists aren’t his ceiling.
why would you think it was his ceiling?
Beno has had only one chance in his career to play significant, important minutes. And that was this past year. And absent the team’s lack of continuity due to injuries and the insertion of Bibby back into the line-up, I suspect that his numbers would have been even better. (And they weren’t bad as it was.)
So, please explain to me how so many folks at this site are confident that he will only be average, or that he has no upside, blah, blah, blah? Simple fact is you don’t know.
Some perspective is in order here I think: The guy stepped into a new system with new guys in a totally new environment and, in my opinion, did a great f*cking job. On top of that he had to deal with the Bibby situation, the injuries I mentioned earlier, and teammates that are not exactly top-tier. And how many assists did Beno miss out on due to dropped passes, missed layups and dunks, and poor shooting?
I can just as easily say that with a year under his belt with the team, the system, and knowing for certain that he is the man that Beno could easily be a 15 and 8 guy. (Are those “middling” numbers?) I’d be guessing, of course, but is that really different than what is going on here?
by Kusian on Jul 1, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have no idea what his future is
I’m wondering why the Kings need to pick up a guy who averaged 12 & 4 and commit 5 years and 30 million to him.
I’d just assume go the total rebuilding route and stop this win while re-tool bullshit. This charade has gone on far too long.
(For the record short term cheap deals for Shaun Livingston, Carlos Arroyo or Keyon Dooling wouldn’t thrill me, but then again, neither does signing Beno for 30 mil either.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Upside
No one knows what Beno’s upside is. I have an opinion based on watching him play, just like you do. 15 and 8 is above average, and I’d be happy with that production, though I think 8 assists are a stretch. Which of these guys is Beno better than?
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Deron Williams
Tony Parker
Baron Davis
Gilbert Arenas
Chauncey Billups
Jason Kidd
Mike Bibby
Jose Calderon
TJ Ford
Note that I’m not even counting the three point/combo guards that went in the top 11 this year or Randy Foye or Mike Conley, who were high draft picks in the last few years. If you’re the 15th best point guard in the league, you’re average to above average.
Game Set Match to Carl
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Moot question
Which of these guys is Beno better than?
Doesn’t matter. We can’t get/can’t afford any of those guys.
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 1, 2008 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps that's the best argument for not re-signing Beno to the full MLE
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
True, but...
We may be able to get a player similar to Beno without the five year commitment. Again, my problem really isn’t with Beno as a player. I think he’s decent to good, average to above average, etc. My problem is committing long term money to him.
That's why I want a guy like Livingston who will take have to a short amount of years & money
It’s a low risk high reward type deal. What happens if he doesn’t work out?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
When we had Bibby
Would you have signed a back-up PG for the MLE for 5? Because with Beno, best case we have a decent starting PG at a value price, and worst case we have a solid back-up PG for fair market value.
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 1, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
For some reason, folks are thinking the MLE for a solid PG is HUGE money. It is not. Frankly, I didn’t think GP would offer it. But I think Beno has an upside and is worth the investment.
However, I wouldn’t be upset about Pookey’s low risk, high reward scenario either.
My point here is that I think this site has really undervalued Beno since the the season ended.
Hmmmmmmm
My point here is that I think this site has really undervalued Beno since the the season ended.The things that make you go hmm. First, I agree that’s possible. I’m not sure what Beno’s value is, and since I don’t consider him a top tier PG, I’m not sure committing long term more than the amount of the dollars is the part that bothers me. 6 million isn’t really that much for Beno, but the 5 years is far too long.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
But if we have him at $6m for 5 years
And by some miracle we don’t need him even as a back-up down the road, there will be a market for a reasonably priced reasonably good PG.
TickTickTickTickTickTick
by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 1, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
That also led to his doom & misery in SA
is that he always felt he should be the starter. What happens if you bring in a better player down the road? My hope is trading him is the answer.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Huh?
I’m not really sure how relevant the list is, but I’ll play along:
I think he’s better than Bibby and as good as Ford. If he gets another full year under his belt, then ask me about Calderon.
The rest of the guys are much more expensive. And in some cases too old to consider long term. And which of them exaclty is available?
The issue is who is available and who can we get now to run our team. The MLE for a player with the potential to be an above average to good PG is simply not that much.
The team needs a PG: a rookie and a 2/3 (Garcia) are not viable options.
Why not?
You can lose without Beno. Why attempt to win 5-7 more games with Beno? What does that really net the franchise long term?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
a solid PG is the net
Are we going to get a better PG through the draft or through FA any time soon? Does anybody really think a team can contend without solid PG play absent a major superstar? (And even then solid PG is usally necessary.)
Give me some viable PG options a couple of years down the line when we are in line for the big FA signing for which we are all clamoring.
Your scenario may be the one we end up going with anyway since it looks like Beno can get more than the MLE from other teams.
Well....
it’s been stated multiple times that the next draft appears to be PG heavy, so assuming we play Garcia/Singletary at the point to get by and lose a few more games (which I think is a given if we don’t resign Beno), we may have a solid chance at one of those guys. I certainly wouldn’t mind picking up a guy like Darren Collison in next year’s draft, who I think is underrated after a horrible showing against Memphis in the FF (but an otherwise great season).
Bottom line – I’m not for a 5yr deal for Beno, but I’m not goign to freak out if it happens. I think Beno will be moveable (although I won’t expect to get anything in return but an unproven youngin’ or an expirer for him if he’s shopped) and I appreciate the effort I’ve seen from him so far.
This pretty much
covers my stance as well.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jul 1, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Kusian i regard you as a smart fellow
But what teams can he get the MLE from? Golden State or Los Angeles? Even though Davis and Brand opted out, neither of those teams have cap room until they renounce both Davis and Brand. Do you think the Dubs or the Clips are doing that to give more money? Coming into the off-season only the Grizzlies and Sixers had absolute cap room available. Given the glut of PG’s the Grizz already have why take Beno? With Andre Miller, and perhaps another player down the road through the draft, why would the Sixers want to pay all that money when they could just pay him the MLE like everyone else.
My point is that the Kings have leverage to offer Beno what they want, and Beno has very little leverage overall because of the amount of teams with cap room and the amount of teams that are looking to break the bank for Beno.
What are viable PG options? What about Ricky Rubio? Yes, you would have to be lucky in the draft, but why not take a risk to get a top 3 pick for a change? Would that be so terrible for the long run? This Kings team needs alot of things, and I think they need ultimately more than what Beno would provide. But, then again, maybe Beno is what the Kings ultimately need. That is, after all, up to the Maloof’s/Petrie.
I agree the solid PG is the net, and the exact purpose of what defining that is could be the real reason Beno ends up getting the MLE. Maybe the team is less concerned with getting a top tier pass first PG, than getting a player who could do alot of things offensively, even if it isn’t by creating shots for others on the pass. That could be the biggest reason why re-signing Beno makes the most sense is that you have 2 young bigs who are, reported to be, excellent passers. If that is the reasoning I have no real problem with Beno being the starter for the next 5 years Kusian.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
We're not going to contend anyway
We’re not going to contend with or without Beno. There are players available this year that can fill the gap (Arroyo, etc.). There may be players available in the trade market that are as good or better and that don’t have five year deals. There will be point guards as good as Beno available over the next one to two years. So yes, there is a good possibility that we will get a better point guard or an equivalent point guard for less money.
I think...
the key point here, to me at least, is whether or not there will be Beno-level talent available at the MLE 2-3 years from now. Beno seems to be a decent fit for this team, he plays hard, and actually attempts to defend – I’ve got no problems with him as a player, or at the MLE, it’s the length contract and its potential to get in the way of other possible moves in the future.
Signing Beno could possibly have the following negative effects: future draft picks are higher (and next year’s class has prospects other than Rubio), singletary/douby don’t get time on the floor to prove themselves, less cap space in 2010 if our plan is really to make a run as someone then.
It worries me Carl
That you don’t see a difference between Beno and Mikki.
Kevin Pritchard stole my daughter's lunch money.
Wow I agree with you now
That is truly scary too.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Right now...
Mikki Moore is a good bench player and borderline starter.
Beno Uridh is a good bench player and decent starter.
Beno is obviously younger and has more upside. I am against using the MLE on solid, decent, above average or middling players every year, which is what Petrie has been doing.
Hmmm...
Would any of us in the ‘don’t sign him to 5yrs at the MLE’ camp even be against this if Petrie hadn’t signed SAR, Mikki, and Salmons to the MLE already?
I’m not sure I’d still be against it…
What would we have done last year if we hadn't signed MIkki?
He doesn’t affect our cap room at all as he comes off before 2010. So would you rather have us start K-9(Woof)? We knew SAR was hurt. AS much fun as it is to see Artest play PF, you can’t do that every game for extended minutes. We all agree that Hawes is not a PF. At least not defesively. So who would you have played at PF if we hadn’t signed Mikki?
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
Miller, K9, Hawes, Watkins, 3-Will could have covered the minutes.
And I bet we’d have been in position to draft Bayless if we’d wanted him, or Love or Alexander, or Augustine.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jul 1, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Which goes back to the "tanking" argument
Are we cheering for the Kings to win or lose? I don’t know that I could ever root for a team of mine to lose. Which is saying a lot, considering I’m a lifelong Raiders fan.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
Tanking is trying not to win
If we didn’t sign Mikki and played our best players and tried to win. It isn’t tanking. Just like if we decide Artest is not a part of the future and we trade him and because of this we win a few less games next year, but we put in our best players and try to win, It isn’t tanking.
Sending Martin to the D-League for a year, now that would be tanking. With our roster as it currently is, Starting Singletary, Douby, Ewing, JT and Hawes and only playing Martin, Miller and Artest 10 minutes a game would be tanking.
Identifying which players are part of the future and moving everyone else sooner rather than later, and not adding MLE stop-gaps is not tanking, it is rebuilding.
Conversely, Keeping players that you know are not a part of the future and signing MLE stop-gaps, just so you can win 5-8 more games a year, is not rebuilding it’s a recipe for perpetual mediocrity.
Tanking is chicken-shit. Rebuilding is smart. Perpetual mediocrity is painful.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jul 1, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Genius lines today (and another one just cropped up)
Tanking is chicken-shit. Rebuilding is smart. Perpetual mediocrity is painful.Well said sir. As far as the other stuff, I’m sure you know Kmart can’t go to the D League, and all that. Well said sir.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I agree with your final paragraph
But if he’s going to use the MLE, I’d rather it was on a guy that still has the potential to be a good player. Mikki Moore was a known quantity when he came in, and we are getting out of him exactly what we should have expected.
The five years scares me with Beno, considering his injury issues last season – his first time really carrying the full load for a team. If the Kings are going that route, they had better make sure there is a decent contingency plan ready (no, not Douby).
Kevin Pritchard stole my daughter's lunch money.
I think we all agree that we'd rather have given him 3 years
But since we’re not even sure that we’ll get him with that offer, we can feel pretty confident we definitely would not have been able to land him with 3 years. So the question that arises is , which is the bigger risk? Signing him for 5 years knowing that he might not be worth it? Or knowing for sure we won’t land him and hoping we can get someone? I don’t think Garcia is or will ever be a PG, and we are hirting his progression/confidence by trying to force him into that role. I think Petrie offered him five years because that’s the only chance we had of getting him.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
If Beno walks I'm never going to shed a tear
The Kings were lucky that Beno did as well as he did under the circumstances. There’s no guarantee of what will happen in the future. The Kings have been confident in whom they’ve signed before, and yet, that hasn’t always worked as well as one might have hoped. (Key Point: Mike Bibby after signing his new deal.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I won't shed a tear if he stays or if he takes the 5 year deal
the pros and cons are so close to a wash that I can be happy either way—or sad either way. If we draft a PG like I expect us to in the next couple of years, we still need a mentor/backup/fallback plan, and there are a lot of worse options than Beno and probably a few better.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
That could be true too
Beno can mouth off about being a starter all he wants to, but he could be a good stop gap for a young PG like Ricky Rubio too. There is always that possibility also. (Although the Kings would have to get lucky like the Bulls did this year for that to happen since Beno’s presence almost ensures that the Kings will win more games than if Beno had walked.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Yeah
That’s the wierd situation we are at. Mikki probably added five wins last year over not having a starting PF. Beno will probably save us 5-10 this year. But is that a good or bad thing?
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
More wins
are always good. This team needs to crack the .500 barrier this year, just to keep the momentum headed in the right direction. I don’t think that this needs to be the commitment in lieu of trading Miller or Artest, but until then you have to continue to improve your team. As a franchise you owe that to the players that are here, as well as the fans.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jul 1, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I don’t want to turn into the Raiders.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
There is no guarantee that that losing gets you anything
Just look at the Sonics, and the Wolves, and the Heat. Besides, I didn’t say this team would be terrible, but that they just wouldn’t be as good.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
Um
Sonics – Kevin Durant
Wolves – OJ Mayo Kevin Love & Mike Miller
Heat – Michael Beasley
I agreed with your premise (losing doesn’t guarantee anything), but you made a terrible argument for it.
What about the Celtics in 07?
Is that a better argument? Or the Celtics in 97?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
I'm swelling with pride you approve Chad Ford
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
We shall see
Its only a rumour and I’d hope it stays that way
Two things
First, regarding Mikki Moore. Good signing. Two years guaranteed with a 50% buyout in the 3rd season, and we needed someone to start at PF. Also, we did not pass on another guy to sign him. In other words, it’s not like we had a choice of signing Horford, Noah or Moore. Moore was it. Had we not signed him we would have been a few more million under the luxury tax level and we would have been treated to heaping helpings of K9(woof!). Again, good signing.
I believe that Udrih could have been offered a full MLE from the Clips, Heat, and Knicks, and maybe even the Nuggets, Cavs and Magic. Hell, even the Lakers could have made a pitch for him, luxury tax be damned. You can now add the Warriors to that list, though that may mean eventually crossing the Clips off the list if Baron Davis heads south. I’m still not comfortable with paying Udrih the full five year MLE, but Petrie has at the very least all but eliminated the MLE only guys as suitors for Beno, as they cannot offer any more than us, and he has forced the Clips/Warriors to pay more than the five year MLE.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I'm not sure I understand that statement
I believe that Udrih could have been offered a full MLE from the Clips, Heat, and Knicks, and maybe even the Nuggets, Cavs and Magic. Hell, even the Lakers could have made a pitch for him, luxury tax be damned. You can now add the Warriors to that list, though that may mean eventually crossing the Clips off the list if Baron Davis heads south. I’m still not comfortable with paying Udrih the full five year MLE, but Petrie has at the very least all but eliminated the MLE only guys as suitors for Beno, as they cannot offer any more than us, and he has forced the Clips/Warriors to pay more than the five year MLE.Anybody can offer Beno the Mid Level. Anybody! Now, the Kings apparently have wrapped Beno up, but I bet that had to do with a guarantee that Beno will start the next 2 years. That has probably a greater reasoning in the signing than any single thing.
I know that you are aware of Beno’s status, but that doesn’t mean the Clipps were clamoring to pick up Beno at more than the Mid Level with Baron Davis and Elton Brand available to be had. (Especially when to offer Beno more money they would have to renounce both players to have the available cap room. What are the chances you think that is happening Section?)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
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