Triangulations

by Ziller on Jul 15, 2008 12:16 PM PDT

Marion, Artest, Odom. It's enough to make someone's head spin.

Points in favor of Odom:

More like to be resigned affordably next summer.
Better passer.
More traditional mold for Jason Thompson to emulate.

Points in favor of Marion:

Much better defender.
Much better shooter.
Better player, period.
Better fit for minutes at three.

In no other reasonable trade could the Kings pull players of this caliber. They have flaws -- every NBA player not named LeBron has them -- but these are good, good players.

I suspect you'll have thoughts.

Poll

In exchange for Artest and K-9 (woof!), I'd prefer...

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Three points~

1 Lebron has flaws, they’re called turnovers
#2 After dealing with bad ron-ron, I’m not sure how well the Kings could handle Marion’s ego.
#3 Off-topic – Anthony Johnson just officially signed with the Orlando Magic.

by dkons21 on Jul 15, 2008 12:32 PM PDT 0 recs

and...

1)FT%
2)He’ll be the “best” player next to Kev… might make it easier.
3)Good for him.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Jul 15, 2008 12:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

True

1. Forgot about that
2. Yeah, and I also like his ability to play the three lessening some of our log-jam at the 4, but at the same time creating less minutes for Frisco and Salmons
3. I agree, classy guy, happy he could extend his career with a decent team for his final year(s)

by dkons21 on Jul 15, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up 0 recs

Takes a player off the Kings cap hold I guess

Now you don’t have to figure out where AJ will be next year. (Those Cap Holds don’t mean anything except for potential cap room anyway.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 1:10 PM PDT up 0 recs

You broke the cycle

You were supposed to answer by the numbers!

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up 0 recs

How dare I break the cycle of the cycle for the cycle by the cycle?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up 0 recs

I guess

We could always recycle.

Wakka wakka wakka!

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

Marion

Isn’t he a bit on an ingrate, he got traded in part from Phx as he was jealous of Stoudimire and Nash, when really he should have been thrilled as he was winning and playing in a system that was perfect for his skills?

by Murf on Jul 15, 2008 1:26 PM PDT 0 recs

Thats why

I dislike the fooool

eternal skeptical optimist

by lietothegirls on Jul 15, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

TZ...

I may be asking too much out of a busy man such as yourself….but if you could set up a poll on the front page, it would be appreciated. I know that as of right now, both deals are based on speculation, however, I’d love to see if STR would prefer to have Marion or Odom!!!

by Hoops916 on Jul 15, 2008 1:34 PM PDT 0 recs

I second.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Jul 15, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

Good idea, 916. Added.

by Ziller on Jul 15, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up 0 recs

They are both expiring contracts

and they are both talented, so I think they are both movable at the deadline. Marion(17.8mil) makes more, and he makes more than Artest + Thomas(15.9mil). We’re dangerously close to the tax threshold, so Artest/Thomas for Marion could cause tax problems. We might need to add a player to make our salary in less than our salary out(though we could do that at the deadline with no penalty). Odom(14.1mil) makes less, so that’s easier.

Either deal would be fine with me, assuming we make another deal before the deadline, or in Odom’s case sign him to a reasonable extension(Kmart deal?).

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Jul 15, 2008 1:41 PM PDT 0 recs

Luxury Tax & Marion

3 options to acquire Marion and avoid paying the Luxury Tax:

1. Marion for Artest, K9, & Douby – $0.4M more, with two empty roster spots and about $0.4M under the Tax
2. Marion for Artest, K9, & Williams – $1.5M less, with two roster spots, $2M+ under the Tax
3. Marion for Artest, SAR, & Moore – $1.6M less, two roster spots, $2M+ under.

Option 3 could potentially bring back another asset, but probably not a significant one.

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

What are the chances of Miami wishing to do that?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

All good options

Though Douby and Williams have some value. If Miami would take Artest/K9, then you hate to just give them players.

4. Trade Marion at the deadline for less money coming back, to get us under the threshold. The threshold only matters at the end of the season.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Jul 15, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

That's a good point about the threshold

It only applies until the end of the season. So any team marginally over at the start can always get under by the end. It happened with the Nets in 2007 when they made a deal with the Bobcats involving Jeff McInnis. McInnis went to the Bobcats, and Chris Robinson, who had an extra year on the deal but was small money like 1.2 million or something like that, went to the Nets. Both teams got what they wanted. The Bobcats got over the minimum salary threshold, and the Nets got under the luxury tax. Win-Win.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up 0 recs

Only PARTIALLY right

The Tax is based on actual salary dollars spent by each Franchise. Below is an extreme hypothetical example to explain it:

Team A pays Player 1’s ($20M) salary for half a season, and trades him to Team B for Player 2’s lower ($10M) salary.

By the end of the year, Team A has paid $15M in salary to Player 1 (half of $20M = $10M) & 2 (half of $10M = $5M), so they save $5M in the process (but not $10M).

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up 0 recs

I know that too

That’s another reason I don’t like it. What happens if the KIngs need to sign an emergency player for 10 days or something like that? It’s just a dumb idea to bring about Shawn Marion. The money just doesn’t work like some would hope.

Lamar Odom is slightly better but not much.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

So....

how does Brad being suspended change where we are in respect to the salary cap? He forgoes his salary during the suspension – does it still count against the cap?

by cabz on Jul 15, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yes it probably does

Even if it didn’t the amount of salary he’s losing for the 5 games isn’t going to add up to a huge savings. He’s looking at nearly 700K lost in salary for the 5 games (not a small amount), but I suspect he’s losing the salary because the Kings pay him and he pays the League. It’s a complicit way of teams not being aware of what their players are doing, and punishes them. So I doubt it isn’t taken off the team salary in other words. (I’m too lazy to look it up, but I’m just making an educated guess.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up 0 recs

Actual answer

Larry Coon did in fact have the answer. It is:

Players are not paid while they are suspended. If a player is suspended by his team, then all of his salary counts as team salary. If the player is suspended by the league, then 50% of the salary lost due to the suspension counts as team salary.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up 0 recs

Dude's got

an answer for everything. That is such a great website.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Jul 15, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yeah he's a CBA god

Try reading the actual CBA (and it is available) and it’s so confusing that it’s pointless. The fact that he and several others (Dan Rosenbaum is one) is a miracle in my view. Makes my life alot easier answering those types of questions though. Link to the site, and blockquote the text, and away everyone’s knowledge goes. (I always learn something too believe it or not because I didn’t know the answer, and now I do.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up 0 recs

Erf!!! (correction time)

(I always learn something when new questions come up, believe or not…)

he and several others interpret the actual CBA is a miracle in my view

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

Right now the Kings are at 69.5 mill for the season in salary

And adding that extra money would put the Kings over the luxury tax threshold (provided another deal isn’t done that shaves the money off that). According to ESPN the luxury tax is 71.15 million (10K off my original statement here in which I said which was 71.25 mill) and that’s probably based off good information. So there is no question the Kings will pay Luxury Tax with this move, and that’s not very wise. Besides, Marion is an overrated player, and I would rather have Lamar Odom if that was the case. Odom is more versatile than Marion is.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Hey

I’d love to do a deal with Miami.

Instead of setting our targets on Marion why not make it Beasley?

The team doesn’t need another veteran who we’re probably looking to trade next year. Get a young piece and continue to rebuild.

I would take on Blount and Banks to pick up Beasley.

BOOK IT!

by kingme18 on Jul 15, 2008 1:56 PM PDT 0 recs

Hell no

Well, maybe. I’d have to think about that. But right now the answer is Hell No.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

This is what separates

Petrie from Pritchard.

How did Pritchard get Roy? By picking up Lafrentz’s albatross deal.

For the Kings it should be about picking up quality young players. Blount’s deal ends when Miller’s, Thomas’ and Shareef’s deal ends.

BOOK IT!

by kingme18 on Jul 15, 2008 8:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

That

and a decade worth of playoff appearances.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 15, 2008 8:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

No making intelligent points

It leaves us with nothing to do. Let us do something for a change!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'm sorry but alot of that is Paul Allen

If Allen is willing to spend what it takes it means that Pritchard can make deals like that. IT’s just that simple. Petrie is not with owners who spend money as freely as Allen will.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 9:49 PM PDT up 0 recs

Best offer?

What’s the most the Kings could offer for Miami’s Killer Bees (Beasley, Blount, & Banks make roughly $17.1M combined)?

You would have to start with Artest & Miller (roughly $18.8M). Do you think that’s enough to get a deal done? I don’t know, but let’s assume it isn’t, so where do you go from there?

The 125% + $100k rule means that the most Sacramento could send to Miami would be $21.4M . . . so who fits in that $2.6M gap? 3 Players: Hawes, Garcia, & Douby.

I think we can reasonably remove Douby from that list, so who do you include, Garcia or Hawes?

Just sayin’.

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'll tell

you what.. Taking the future out of consideration (in regards to Sign and trades and long term deals), it sure would be fun to watch Martin and Marion at the 2 & 3 respectively.. Talk about difficult covers for opposing defenses!!!. I assume you now know who I voted for!

Thanks for puttin that up TZ- I suspect it will gather a few votes!

by Hoops916 on Jul 15, 2008 2:02 PM PDT 0 recs

None of em

Bringing in 1 year help from older players/expiring contracts, just to get rid of a contract that expires after next season isn’t worth a trade. I’d prefer the long term help of David Lee over both of them any day.

by CloudyEyes on Jul 15, 2008 2:15 PM PDT 0 recs

I'd prefer to win the lottery

but unfortunately we’re discussing possible trades. At this point it looks like the two mentioned above, or sticking with Ron.

by misterbrister on Jul 15, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

sorry

realized that my reply below makes me sound like a d-bag. Not your fault, I’m just disappointed in our lack of options/activity.

by misterbrister on Jul 15, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

I've said it before

What the $#@! do we need another PF for now? That ship has sailed.

eternal skeptical optimist

by lietothegirls on Jul 15, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Let's see...

We can bring in a power forward and address arguably our weakest position on the floor (lots of player, very little talent) with a guy who is a major upgrade. Or we can bring in a SF (such as Marion), and exacerbate a log-jam of talented players like Garcia and Salmons. Is Marion a clear upgrade over Garcia and Salmons? Yes. But I think we’re in a better position started Odom and Garcia than we are starting Moore and Marion.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Jul 15, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up 0 recs

technically we can start Moore and Odom

That’s what I love about Lamar – true versatility. He is a Power Forward, because that’s the postiion he’s played for the last three years. But he is most definitely a small forward. With Lamar in the Lineup, the Kings can alternate between Gigantic and Miniscule lineups by interchanging a few players.

BIG:
Salmons/Cisco
KMart
Odom
Thompson/Moore
Miller

small:
Beno
Martin/Douby
Garcia
Salmons
Odom

Lamar does NOT create a logjam – he just exposes how desperately we need to clean up our frontcourt. He will play his role, and he will rebound. People claim our young guys need playing time, and hiding them behind Odom doesn’t help. Here’s what Odom is going to do for them that Artest can’t: get the rebounds, which gives them more touches. Our kids don’t just need PT, they need the ball in their hands. Lamar will need the ball substantially less the Ron, and will help ensure that the team gets a few more possessions per game.

Now, don’t get me wrong, Lamar certainly won’t improve our odds of winning in thos posessions. However, giving the keys to our young guys is much more enticing than the prospect of Ron calling for the ball with 22 seconds left on the shot clock. Lamar won’t do that – which means more possesions for Beno to direct the team, more shot oppurtunities for Kevin, Theus has to put Spence and JT on the floor in order to find a low-post threat, and allows the team to find it’s own direction. Theus can establish himself as a better leader (now that he doesn’t have to make his weekly exception-to-please-Artest), and it leads the team open to discover a new floor leader (Kevin, maybe, Cisco is good too, Shreef if he plays). Plus, as the season progresses and our young guys improve – who’s to say Lamar Odom can’t become our sixth man?

However, Lamar Odom as a King for longer than the trade deadline does mean the likely end for the careers of Shelden, Quincy and Ewing, as yes – their isn’t enough playing time to go around. This might be my biggest problem with the trade.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Jul 15, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

It would be great if we could get a young Lamar Odom an expiring deal and a 1st

The problem is that deal isn’t available. So we have to live with it. That’s why I’ve been stumping so hard for the Wally/future 1st deal.

That being said, well argued point about the virtues of Lamar Odom towards helping the Kings. (In fact I’ve never doubted it myself. I just think the Kings don’t help themselves in the long term by doing that.) More importantly, I can’t shake the fact that the Lakers think Artest is the answer when they have such a structured and systematic offense. Artest is not, after all, Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. Perhaps the Lakers know that, and they’re not willing to take that risk for Artest no matter how soft they think the Finals performance is.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 15, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

David Lee is a combo SF/PF.

by CloudyEyes on Jul 15, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up 0 recs

? really?

Not blanking you… it’s just that’s the first I’ve heard of that.

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Jul 15, 2008 7:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yep

Well…at least I think he can play PF. I’ve had him on my fantasy team his rookie year and this year. I played him all the time at SF, since it listed him as a SF/PF. He’s 6-9, too.

by CloudyEyes on Jul 15, 2008 7:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

play SF*

by CloudyEyes on Jul 15, 2008 7:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

At this point

I would take Blue Moon Odom or Marty Marion if it would get Ron out of Sac.

Wait for it…

Hater!

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 15, 2008 7:20 PM PDT 0 recs

agreed

If we have to pick between these two options, that’s a good place to be.

by misterbrister on Jul 16, 2008 7:03 AM PDT up 0 recs

I just vomited in my mouth a little

There was a hypothetical “Trade Ron for Marion” post awhile back and at the time I angrily said “Fuck Shawn Marion.”

That still stands! Had Shawn Marion been a team player the Suns would’ve won a championship this year. They’d have had it last year if it weren’t for a couple bad suspensions. But he didn’t like being #3. So he got traded to Miami to be #2 on the worst team in the league. Smart move, Matrix. I don’t want Marion’s bad attitude rubbing off on our youngsters. I don’t see Odom as the player of the future, but renting him for a year isn’t too bad of an option. If we can put him at the 4 then that’d be great. I know we have too many PFs right now, but I find it pretty important to let Salmons and Cisco get more time since they’ve earned it.

However, and I really hate to say this, if we could somehow weasel a draft pick out of Miami for Marion then I’d definitely consider it. I also think that since Marion wants to be “the man” and it is a contract year for him so he’ll probably play balls out and live up to his potential, which could in turn work into either a S&T at the end of the season or a deadline trade for expirings and another potential pick, which would be ideal.

by vfettke on Jul 15, 2008 8:22 PM PDT 0 recs

this is a good point you make

For all Ron’s disgressions, we’ve never had to worry about him loafing on the court. He has always played with fire, always wanting to win.

I wonder if we would get the same effort out of Marion.

I don’t think we could get a pick out of the Miami deal, especially considering that they’d already be taking on K-9. We could however, look to move Marion at the deadline for some cap filler and a pick.

by misterbrister on Jul 16, 2008 7:24 AM PDT up 0 recs

I don't think

that Marion has ever been accused of loafing. Whiner? Yes. Selfish? Yes.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 16, 2008 7:30 AM PDT up 0 recs

Exactly.

That might be my biggest worry with him. I get a little scared of his attitude rubbing off on some of the youngsters. It could be disastrous. I think plenty of our guys can handle it because of strong character, but I don’t want to risk it too much.

With either of these trades I wonder about their positions. Both Odom and Marion can play either forward position, correct? This could potentially be good because having either one might mean that they can switch between the two and open up time for our other guys at those spots. Ideally we could start Odom/Marion at the 4 to allow Salmons to start at 3 knowing how well he does as a starter. Then they can move down to the 3 to give minutes to one of our other PFs. It could get a little confusing though with Odom/Marion playing two spots, Garcia can play the 2 or 3 or, God forbid, the point, and Salmons can play the 1 through 3 spots as well.

by vfettke on Jul 16, 2008 7:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

Interesting Question

If we take Artest’s effort (100%) as a given, and assume (for the sake of conversation) that Marion’s effort is significantly less (80%), how different is that really for the Kings?

Here are the games played numbers for Marion & Artest (going from most recent backwards)...
Marion: 63* , 80, 81, 81, 79, 81, 81, 79, 51 (AVG: 75)
Artest: 57, 70, 56* , 7, 73, 69, 55*, 76, 72 (AVG: 59.5 with suspension year, 66 without)
*Played for more than one team

Ignoring his season-long suspension (7 games played in the 04-05 season), Artest still played in 11% less games than Marion.

Even if Artest “brings it” (100%) every night and Marion doesn’t (80%), then what would you rather have? Does the 20% (effort, not necessarily production) that Artest brings when he’s on the floor outweigh the 80% Marion provides for an extra 11 games?

Honestly, I don’t know, but I thought it was an interesting point of view to explore.

by smgmatt on Jul 16, 2008 7:43 AM PDT up 0 recs

Addendum

Something I missed at first glance:

Marion’s rookie year (99-00), he played in 51 games for a Phoenix team that was 53-29, finished 3rd in NBA Pacific Division, and lost to the eventual NBA Champions in the Conference Semi-finals.
Artest’s rookie year (also 99-00), he played 71 games for a Chicago team that was 17-65, finished 8th in NBA Central Division, and (obviously) missed the playoffs.

If you subtract Marion’s rookie season (he didn’t play as much because he was on a contender, while Artest’s team was in full rebuild with youth), his average becomes 78 games played per season. This changes the percentage difference from 11% to 15%, which makes this question even more interesting.

by smgmatt on Jul 16, 2008 7:51 AM PDT up 0 recs

I'd personally take Artest or Marion

But somebody explain to me why Miami would do this deal. Both Artest and Marion are headcases, but I think most people would agree Artest is a bigger headcase. Both play small forward. Artest plays better D, Matrix plays better O. Artest is a small expiring, Marion is a big expiring. Therefore, taking Artest requires them to pay at least one extra year of salary (or more if they sign Artest long term.) I hope they’d do the deal, and I’m sure I’m just being dense, but what is in it for them?

"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie

by SavageBeast on Jul 15, 2008 9:58 PM PDT 0 recs

Oops I meant Odom or Marion

"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie

by SavageBeast on Jul 15, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Artest vs. Marion

I also didn’t think that Miami would trade Marion for Artest before reading multiple reports to the contrary.

The only thing that I can think of is that after half a season to evaluate Marion, Miami decided that he wasn’t in their plans going forward.

Maybe with one year left, they’d rather give Artest a tryout to see if he can be a solid piece in their return to relevance. Good Ron would definitely help them in the East, and with Artest, & Beasley on the roster, they may not only retain Wade but grab another free agent in 2010 as well (Bosh? Amare?).

Stranger things have happened.

by smgmatt on Jul 15, 2008 10:43 PM PDT up 0 recs

let me just say

that I think Miami could be a GOOD team in the east with the following pieces/role-players around D-Wade

Chalmers- Smart, defensive-minded PG that can get into the paint and hit 3’s
Artest- Defensive-minded SF who can knock down threes and post-up
Beasley- Aggressive post scorer with a knack for rebounding

That’s the beginnings of a decent team, depending on how the bench plays.

by misterbrister on Jul 16, 2008 7:17 AM PDT up 0 recs

Ok

Not for nothin’, but Marion plays good D and hits more 3’s (660 made, .341 3P% vs. 564 made, .329 3P%) than Artest, so the only thing Miami gets is Artest’s post game . . . oh and Kenny Thomas’ contract next year.

I’m still shocked that Miami would consider this, and thrilled that if they would, it can only drive up Artest’s value. If a bidding war starts, we all win.

by smgmatt on Jul 16, 2008 7:56 AM PDT up 0 recs