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The Once and Future Kings! (a Four Part Plan)

With all respect to all of our high hopes for the 2008/2009 season, I think some of us here in Sactown would feel a wee bit better if we could begin to envision a Kings team that, say within say three or four years, could compete for the Western Conference Championship and be on the path to an NBA Championship. 

 

Ah, yes! As Deborah Harry once sang: dreaming is free.

 

Maybe it's not all necessarily dreaming though. In fact to some degree the franchise has already made a few steps in The Right Direction. Yes, Mike Bibby is gone, soon Brad Miller and all other vestiges of the Kings glory days early in the decade will be in the rear view mirror, but this means that the aging, top heavy pressure on the salary cap is being cleared. Meanwhile, Kevin Martin is a rising star and hopefully Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes will develop as hoped. Little rays of sun peek through the dark nimbus clouds.

 

Still, obviously we have a loooong road to hoe, and if indeed the Kings are to reach for the brass ring, some of that road along the way will probably resemble a Trail of Tears. At least one, maybe two pretty awful seasons are likely in store as part of any serious rebuilding process. But we all know that the Celtics had to endure that kind of  indignity, as did the Lakers and pretty much every other team that's been to the Finals in recent NBA history. 

 

In my picture of things the leaner, meaner "Sacramento Kings 2.0" is within reach, but it will probably will only include a handful of the players currently on the roster. The NBA Title contending version of our heroes will once again be dynamic on offense; featuring sharp ball movement, finding and hitting the open man, running snazzy pick and roll plays, etc. But along with that the Kings will have younger and more athletic players on the court who are committed to playing solid team defense and can really lock down in the crunch. It’ll be a team that fights hard for rebounds and unlike recent seasons, doesn’t give up easy buckets, especially in the paint.

 

Sound cool by you so far? Let me outline a modest four part plan to get us to the Top of the Mountain:

 

Phase 1 (2008 thru 2010): Continue to unload older players with oversized salaries; (preferably getting decent value in return).

 

Artest and Miller still have trade value, especially to contending teams, and should be moved before the March 2009 deadline for any reasonable offer. Petrie should take whatever he can get (if anything) for K-9, and hopefully the Kings can get a break on Shareef’s salary if he retires due to injury.

 

Ron-Ron will be likely be moved first, and I predict that he will fetch a better return than the bargain basement offer Petrie wisely turned down last trade deadline.

 

My favorite scenario is: Artest and Douby to the Mavericks for Josh Howard. Other scenarios are possible, and in fact are probably already being discussed; but the bottom line is Miller and Ron Artest will no longer be in purple and black unis by no later than March 2009.

 

Phase 2 (2008 or 2009): Acquire a younger big man (preferably a 5) who can play defense, rebound and run the court.

 

Example 1: Spencer Hawes to the Bulls for Joakim Noah.

 

Hawes is certainly a talented (albeit raw) young player, but his talents don’t fit the vision I have for the Kings frontline two years from now. For far too long we’ve needed an infusion of athleticism and hard nosed defense up front, and Joakim Noah would deliver that immediately. Sure, Spencer can shoot and Joakim can’t, but Noah is quicker and longer and he can score on put-backs and dunks. More importantly Noah's a much better defender, he can run like a deer, he’s a really good passer and ball handler, and he plays team basketball with fire. Total commitment at all times. Interestingly, I think Hawes would be a better fit  with the Bulls, who could use someone who can shoot and score around the basket.

 

Example 2: Brad Miller (plus a throw-in) to Miami for Udonis Haslem and (the expiring contract of) Ricky Davis.

 

I'm no expert with the NBA Trade Machine, and I'd be happy to have some of you throw out some similar possible moves.

 

There are also some younger Bigs I’d be just as interested in seeing the Kings pursue: Chris Wilcox, Paul Millsap, LInas Klieza, Nene (assuming he’s healthy), Anderson Varajao, Andray Blatche. 

 

If Miller and/or John Salmons can be a piece in the puzzle needed to acquire one of the above, so be it, as long as any other contract the Kings acquire in the deal is relatively short termed. Salmons doesn't seem all that happy about coming off the bench, which unfortunately is where I think his future lies with the Kings. He's a nice role player, but Salmons is expendable. 

 

In fact, although I'm building this model of the Future Kings around Kevin Martin, no one should be considered untouchable on the current roster, IMO. I’d also prefer not trading Francisco Garcia because his aggressive style, gritty defense and committment to continualy improve his game exemplifies the kind of player the Kings will need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. 

 

Phase 3 (2009): Get those ping pong balls bouncing our way and draft a great young point guard.

 

This is the bitter pill I fear has to be swallowed at some point. The Kings will have to suffer through a nasty season or two in order to draft a future star who will help carry us to The Promised Land. Might as well be sooner rather than later as far as I'm concerned...

 

The Kings haven't had a draft pick higher than #7 overall since Geoff Petrie was hired as GM in 1995! Most of his picks have been much lower than that. and the fact that he’s been able to turn Jason Wiliams into Mike Bibby, or dig up gems like Peja, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, and Francisco Garcia late in the draft is a testament to his savvy and keen eye for talent.  

 

In any case, I’m afraid we’re about to get a shot at a Top 3 pick next year, and although on the surface the draft class of 2009 doesn’t appear to be quite as talented as 2008, it does look to have a strong crop of point guards. That’s a great opportunity for the Kings, and hopefully Brandon Jennings or Ricky Rubio should fit the bill. One of ‘em they will probably be there when we draft.

 

Phase 4: (2010/2011) Sign a Major Free Agent.

By no later than 2010  the salaries of Miller, Artest, Kenny Thomas, Shareef Abdur Rahim and Mikki Moore will all be off the books.

 

And by 2011 the only current Kings who will still be under contract are Martin, Hawes, Udrih, Garcia and Thompson (I’m excluding the two 2008 2nd Round draft picks. If they’re still with the team they’re contracts will be relatively small).

 

In other words the Kings should have plenty enough cap room to be high rollers in the looming 2010/2011 Free Agent sweepstakes. Clearly Petrie has this as a goal, and it’s very reach-able. Here we’re looking particlularly to sign somebody who can score, (hopefully in droves), create major match-up problems, and share the focus of the offense with Kevin Martin. I think we’re particularly looking for a dominant player at the 4 spot, but a terrific 3 or 5 would also be fine and dandy.

 

Some potential targets who could or should be offering their services in 2010 or 2011 include:

 

* Pau Gasol (due $17.8 million in 2010, FA in 2011). Age: 28

* Andrei Kirilenko (due 17.8 million in 2010; FA in 2011). Age 27 

* Amare Stodemire (Player Option for $17.6 million in 2010; Free Agent in 2011). Current age: 25

* Chris Bosh ($17.1 million Player Option in 2010; FA in 2011). Age: 24

* Richard Jefferson (due $15 million in 2010; FA in 2011). Age: 28

* Carlos Boozer ($12.6 million Player Option in 2009; FA in 2010). Age: 26 

* LaMarcus Aldridge ($7.6 million Qualifying Offer in 2010; FA in 2011). Age: 23

* David West  ($7.5 million Player Option in 2011). Age: 28

 

I don't expect every one of these names to be available, since some will likely re-sign before they hit the market, but I haven't even mentioned the numerous smaller players who will be out there around the same time. Nor can we predict which players currently not on the radar will emerge as rising stars and also be available.

 

The point is that in a couple of years there will be a lot of big-time basketball talent vying to land hither and yon, and  a young, improving, cap-friendly Sacramento Kings team should be in a position to reel some of it in.

 

Signing one of these (or similar) players should crown the rebuilding process, although obviously the degree to which the younger players already on the team continue to develop and team chemistry meshes will determine how fast and how far the Sacramento Kings 2.0 advance toward an NBA title.  

 

OK, based on this little plan, here's one hypothetical but not too far-fetched example  of...

 

Your Sacramento Kings Version 2.0

(starters in bold)

PF: Chris Bosh; Jason Thompson; Chris Wilcox, 

SF: Josh Howard; Jason Thompson; Francisco Garcia

C: Joakim Noah; Chris Bosh; (2010 1st round pick)

SG: Kevin Martin; Francisco Garcia; Pat Ewing II (or 2011 1st Round pick); 

PG: Ricky Rubio; Beno Udrih; Sean Singeltary (we'll give him the benefit of the doubt); 

 

I'm sure other folks here could with a similar plan arrive at a somewhat different roster with equally eyebrow-raising potential. I'm also sure holes can be shot in parts of my argument. Playing NBA GM even for a week is incredibly complex!

 

In any case, IMHO a healthy, two-years-more-mature version of the above roster would not only create a bunch of  match-up nightmares for any opponent, but, if playing up to their abilities and within the confines of an intelligent offense and a tough-minded defensive philosophy, would absolutely challenge any team currently in the West, including the Lakers.

 

I'd certainly pay good money to see these guys push the tempo, pass, hustle, crash the boards, defend and score their way into the Western Conference Finals.

 

And hey, maybe, (just maybe) the King's championship banner will finally be raised at a brand new, sold-out, extremely LOUD arena!

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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A little summer reading for Kings fanatics...

Comments? Questions?

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 3, 2008 8:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Regarding Phase 2

Run that Hawes for Noah deal over at Blog-A-Bull and see what kind of reaction you get. He was drafted earlier than Hawes and he put up better numbers. So the Bulls would make this deal why?

Haslem? No thanks. Dude was 12 and 9 in 37 minutes last year and he blocks less shots per game than Brad Miller, Spencer Hawes, Ron Artest, Francisco Garcia, Mikki Moore and John Salmons.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 3, 2008 8:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 3, 2008 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah?!

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 3, 2008 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

well, as you know, section

Noah ran into a little trouble down in Florida recently, and he’s not the most popular guy in Chicago at the moment. I’ve read some of the Bulls blogs and Joakim’s on thin ice not only with management but with a lot of fans.

Sure, Noah was drafted one selection ahead of Hawes. Their salaries are practically identical and while, yes, Joakim got more minutes (no Brad Miller in front of him), and had better numbers; both showed promise during brief stretches of the season while neither of them put up any significant stats to speak of as rookies.

More importantly, in many ways Hawes’ type of game would help the Bulls in some important ways that Noah doesn’t. It’s certainly likely that Hawes will be putting up better offensive numbers than Joakim’s by mid-season, which would make a trade like this pretty do-able at that point. There was a lot of talk about Petrie eyeing Joakim before the 07 draft, so it might not be as far fetched six months from now.

Anyway my trade scenario was really more of a general point about where I see Hawes fitting in with the Kings rebuilding movement, (obviously I think he’s not a great fit). Do you disagree with that angle?

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 3, 2008 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

You may have a point

But I lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I still keep in touch with a lot of people in Chicago. They don’t give Noah’s Florida problem much more attention than we gave J-Will and C-Webb racing down I-80. His problems with the coach last year is sort of water under the bridge, as Skiles is regarded in Chicago as our E-Muss.

Now, let’s say that the Bulls did want to ship out Noah. Don’t you think that they could do better than Hawes? I like Hawes. I like Hawes a lot. But he has a ways to go before he becomes a guy with actual trade value. Hell, the Bulls already have Aaron Gray. Look at his stats from last year and then tell me that you could convince the Bulls that Hawes is significantly better than him, much less Noah.

After all of that is said and done, I’m not certain that Petrie would want to make the deal. Given his penchant this year for drafting high character team guys, Hawes might fit GP’s vision better than Noah.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 4, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK, section

you’ve convinced me… Hawes is going nowhere anytime soon.

Still, I wish I had the same confidence in him as I guess you. Lots of skill around the basket, good shooter. I can see him averaging 14, 16 maybe even 20 points a game in a season or two, once Brad is out of the picture. I like that he can run the floor a bit, and his passing is very nice.

But with him at center the lack of athleticism will always be defensive handicap for Sacramento. Spencer can be overpowered down low and his lack of quickness makes it tough when he’s trying to guard his man up high. His wingspan is very mediocre so he’s probably never gonna be much of a shot blocker. Now, he’s not the only center in the NBA with this kind of downside but even more worrisome is his lack of rebounding skills/ability. The Kings have been getting killed in rebounding battles for about five years now. This is supposed to be a strength for Jason Thompson, so maybe that’ll help. But he’s apprently not a great athlete either. It’ll be very interesting to see how he matches up against quick and athletic NBA power forwards.

The point is, if athleticism, defense and rebounding remain an ongoing weakness in the front-court, it’ll hamstring the Kings in terms of the kind of free agent they seek and sign two or three years down the road. LaMarcus Aldridge, for example, becomes a non-starter. Chris Bosh would also be problematic because he’s not a great defender either. Carlos Boozer similar red light due to his lack of focus on defense.

The Kings don’t need a scorer at center, they need an anchor; a guy like Tyson Chandler or David Lee or Ben Wallace five years ago; someone to do the dirty work, clear the glass and create problems for opponents in the middle of the court. (I see Joakim having the potential to develop into something like that kind of player).

With that in place they have lots more flexibility in signing a high scoring free agent.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 4, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Where

in either of my posts did I profess my “confidence” in Hawes? I compared him to Aaron Freakin’ Gray! In fact, you’re making my point for me. If Hawes lacks everything that you say he does, the Bulls wouldn’t take him for Noah.

Now, I did say that I like Hawes ( a lot) and it may very well happen that Hawes develops into a nicer player than Noah. But that has not happened yet and perhaps it never will, which is exactly why the Bulls would not make the trade.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 4, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, exactly. You said:

“I like Hawes. I like him a lot.”

I assumed that meant you have some confidence in him.

Anyhoo, section, I conceded the point about the Bulls making my little fantasy trade. They certainly wouldn’t do it now (and I said the center position could be addressed as late as the 2009/2010 season). And you’re right, Petrie may also like Hawes. A lot.

It’s not a question of me thinking Noah is a much better player than Hawes. I don’t think that at all. I think they’re comparable in terms of potential but with two very different skill sets. The Bulls have some guys who can defend and rebound already. They could use a big who can knock down shots from outside. The Kings on the other hand have plenty of shooters, but have been gettin’ killed inside for years.

Ultimately all I’m sayin’ is that with Hawes at center (rather than a defensive minded rebounder) it’s probably gonna make things much trickier for Petrie in terms of signing a free agent who can score.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 4, 2008 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trail of Tears???

Thousands died and tens of thousands were displaced from their homelands, really not the best comparison for a couple of down seasons.

"everything was beautiful and nothing hurt"

by richmond02 on Jul 3, 2008 8:34 PM PDT reply actions  

You're right,

bad metaphor. Not that it excuses anything, but I’m 1/16th Cherokee.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 3, 2008 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

good luck

getting my LaMarcus Aldridge to go to your kings. He is part of the big 3: roy, oden, LMA.

I can’t believe this kind of talk gets posted on here

You’ll just acquire bosh, LMA, and josh howard? Like anyone is looking to come to Sacramento. Your team has the darkest future in the NBA

by PippenAintEasy on Jul 5, 2008 3:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Darker than your last five years?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 5, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

These Blazer fans are loquacious aren't they?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 5, 2008 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think

we stirred up Trailblazer Fan with all the love we were giving ‘em on Draft Day.

Hold your tongues ye upstart Stumptown curs!

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

haha

much darker… although, what is darker than pitch black?

by PippenAintEasy on Jul 6, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your wit

Or at least half of it.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 6, 2008 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't your mama teach you anything, Pip?
Your team has the darkest future in the NBA

If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.

TickTickTickTickTickTick

by LeaguePassAddict on Jul 5, 2008 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually

I said either Bosh or Aldridge (or one of about a dozen other 2010 Free Agents) would suit us just fine.

I mentioned Josh Howard in connection with a potential trade with for Artest. I didn’t invent that idea, BTW. It was rumored in Dallas at last years trade deadline.

Anyway, c’mon don’t be so stingy with your “Big 3”, pippen. You can have ‘em for the next couple of seasons but those guys are gonna want to cash in some big pay days in a couple of years.

The Kings will be ready with an open checkbook.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've got a great plan!

1)Do everything Moss said.
2)???????
3) Championship!

Mikki Moore in the skills challenge! - LPA

by iashwash on Jul 6, 2008 10:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Follow Me, lads!!

I will lead us to Glory!!

;>)

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 12:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't forget

LeBron and Wade are going to be free agents, as well. Imagine “King” James being a King. The Kings could probably offer any one of these guys a max-out contract, while having all the tools to build around that player.

by CloudyEyes on Jul 6, 2008 4:35 PM PDT reply actions  

That works for me!

OK, scratch Bosh. Mark me down as in favor of signing LeBron.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

A lot of Work

But I don’t really follow.

You immediately load up on a player (Josh Howard) who already makes too much money ($16mil) and hasn’t proved he can lead a loaded team anywhere

You reject a 19 year old big man (Hawes) with intriguing offensive skills and an as yet unknown upside for a player who will probably never score and is only an OK defensive ‘energy’ player with interesting hair. If he was such a good inside player why would the Bulls be looking?

Most of the proposed 2010 free agents will be getting a little old by then and want too much $$ – who knows what they’ll have left by then?

Draft picks outside of the #1 and #2 spots (and even those) don’t guarantee ANYTHING.

I agree with the Kmart/Garcia are the only untouchables though.
Etc ect

eternal skeptical optimist

by lietothegirls on Jul 8, 2008 8:32 AM PDT reply actions  

counter-arguments...

OK, let’s talk about Hawes first.

I recognize his potential as an offensive player but my point is that until the Kings get a big infusion of defense and athleticism in the front-court or they will not advance past where they’ve been for the past several seasons with the guy Hawes seems to have been cloned from, Brad Miller. That is, stuck in the middle of the pack, bounced in the first round.

The Kings have a very good offensive option already in K Martin, and can (in fact must) add another major star through Free Agency in a couple of seasons. That’s what all this cap space clearing is about.

You’re right, lie, there are no guarantees with draft picks but unfortunately that’s a chance the Kings will have to take because things are going to get ugly once Miller and Artest are gone, and Sacramento will be in the draft lottery for a season or two, probably with a very high pick.

Now, as for Josh Howard. He’s not a player who will carry anyone on his back by himself, but I don’t think the Mavericks inability to advance can be blamed on him either. He was probably their most consistent player outside of Nowitzki this season. However he had a little scrape with team policy over weed if they’d trade him the Kings would be lucky to get him.

Noah is a similar case. It’s funny how on one side section214 is arguing that there’s no way the Bulls would part with Joakim for Hawes, (probably true at least for teh time being) while pookey and you seem to say it’d be nuts to trade a Hawes for a zero like Noah. In any case, my point with that trade idea was simply to point to a general principle (get more athletic, more defense, more rebounding up front) rather than a specific deal I think has to be made.

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 1:10 PM PDT reply actions  

A zero like Noah?

I’m not in love with him. I’m not in love with Hawes either. Hawes is here, though, and Noah isn’t.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 8, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

sure,

but what the heck, this is a blog, pookey. We get to pretend we have some voice in the matter, propose imaginary trades, lobby for players to be drafted or traded and generally play junior NBA GM.

It’s no secret you don’t dig Noah much if at all. Recently you argued against trading this year’s first round pick to the Bulls to acquire him, and last year you were writing that Jason Smith would be a better selection than Noah for the Kings.

You might turn out to be right about both those assessments but I wonder, do you disagree that having a strong shooter with good passing skills and nice moves around the basket at center like Hawes nevertheless makes for some potentially serious long term problems in rebuilding the Kings if that player is also relatively un-athletic, a poor defender and at best mediocre rebounder?

I should have written this post more coherently because all the comments seem to focus on the specifics of the trade ideas, (or the plight of my Cherokee ancestors) when really those are just examples of a general strategy that I think could turn things around.

And one of the main pillars of that strategy is: Get somebody at center who can defend and rebound and pass and run the court. Doesn’t matter much if that guy can score.

Then, while that player develops , keep clearing cap space and in a couple of years sign a star free agent who can really fill the bucket at the 4 or 3 position.

anyway…

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 8, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know that's great and all

But that isn’t Petrie’s MO or interest in players around the basket. I disagree about Noah, and I think Hawes/Thompson as a combo will provide enough post defense (assuming both bulk up enough), rebounding especially, and some shot blocking.

I don’t think the Kings need to become more athletic around the basket. I think what they need are two players who can provide matchup difficulties around the basket for other teams on a consistent basis. That’s what wins in the NBA. All this nonsense about defense wins is utter and complete crap. It sounds good, but really the better team wins. Most teams are better on 2 ends, but when a team is good offensively, the defensive part gets lost in the shuffle.

And one of the main pillars of that strategy is: Get somebody at center who can defend and rebound and pass and run the court. Doesn’t matter much if that guy can score.
That’s why we disagree. I don’t think it matters that much, and you think it’s integral to a successful team. We disagree. So what do you want to do from there? Walk 50 paces and shoot at each other blindfolded? At some point disagreement is all there is MM.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 8, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

No blindfolds or duels for me!

I’m scared of the dark and allergic to gunpowder! :>)

Seriously though, pookey, I’ve never heard you express your sort of general philosophy on what makes and NBA team successful before, so I didn’t know if you agreed or disagreed with the old adage about “defense wins championships”. I appreciate it!

You’re right about Petrie too. Whatever you or I might think our local GM definitely doesn’t have a problem with big guys in the middle who can shoot but can’t jump…

"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)

by Mucho Moss on Jul 9, 2008 9:30 AM PDT reply actions  

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