"And perhaps best of all, it finally establishes Sacramento as Kevin Martin's team. For the past...

"And perhaps best of all, it finally establishes Sacramento as Kevin Martin's team. For the past two years the Kings have appeared to have a hard time understanding that their most efficient scorer should be getting a bigger chunk of the shots; now that the option of forcing it to Artest or Mike Bibby are gone, Martin can get on with pumping in 25 a game and not worry about going entire quarters without seeing the ball."

Hollinger's take

5 months ago Kfan in Korea Comment 42 comments 0 recs |

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I agree with John Hollinger from an overall perspective

This is more about the Rockets going all in and how they fit Ron into their scheme. (I don’t think that will be a problem with Rick and Ron knowing each other. McGrady and Yao are different stories. That will take some time.)

I think Hollinger’s point about this becoming Kevin Martin’s team is more important than any single thing. I wonder if Martin saying he wanted a leadership had any rule to the urgency of doing this deal in “principle” now. Oh well, either way, it’s not important, just one of those supplemental questions.

Thanks for retrieving the link Kfan.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 30, 2008 7:54 AM PDT 0 recs

one of the big positives i see

is the value this gives salmons. salmons really seemed to struggle coming off the bench, but was great as a starter.

by sactoreg on Jul 30, 2008 8:18 AM PDT 0 recs

Let's hope that remains true

I’m always skeptical of a guy who performs in short stints as a starter, but does poorly off the bench because he can’t “handle’ it.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 30, 2008 8:36 AM PDT up 0 recs

I did the math

Salmons averages 19 points per game when playing at least 35 minutes per game. Almost as much as Artest’s 20 points per game but John takes less shots.

John is a better mid range shooter but Ron was better at the three. John uses the spin move to drive. Ron just puts his head down and out runs his opponent with the ability to score with either hand.

Ron is better in rebounding, assists, steals and blocks on a per minute basis. John is better at shooting percentage and free throws.

Those are the numbers.

by KingsFan on Jul 30, 2008 9:01 AM PDT up 0 recs

I also ran some numbers...

It turns out John is better at the not being crazy part too.

by #12Pick...who? on Jul 30, 2008 9:40 AM PDT up 0 recs

I agree

John’s a cool cat. He’s the last player one would expect to run into the seats and beat the hell out of a fan. But that was part of the fun with Ron. You never knew what was coming next. Always an adventure.

by KingsFan on Jul 30, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up 0 recs

Wha-wha-whaaaaat?

John is coolcat?

That explains . . . well not much, actually.

by smgmatt on Jul 30, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up 0 recs

Cool Cat

It’s my estimation of John’s emotion level. He’s the antithesis of Ron Artest. This is about the only time I ever saw John break loose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvRaLkAuRp4

by KingsFan on Jul 30, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up 0 recs

Sorry

StR commenter joke . . . I knew what you were referring to.

by smgmatt on Jul 30, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

Motivation

Salmons has been a starter-quality player for several years. He’s been waiting a long, long time for this, so he’s going to be motivated to perform.

by Carl on Jul 30, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

It could also net the Kings an expiring contract

That they can ship out Kenny Thomas with John with. That’s always a possibility if John is playing out of his mind. Teams will take K9 with a 1 1/2 left on his deal to get John Salmons if he’s playing incredibly well won’t they?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 30, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up 0 recs

If he plays that well

The Kings would need to seriously consider if they should keep him.

Just sayin’.

by smgmatt on Jul 30, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up 0 recs

I think that if Salmons starts, so should JT.

Thompson’s shooting range matches better with Salmons and I want to see JT along side Miller if Miller isn’t traded first. Giving major minutes to Moore seems like a waste of time to me.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Jul 30, 2008 11:18 AM PDT 0 recs

I agree

Though I ‘Like Mikki’ personally. I think the Magic may give us something for him…

eternal skeptical optimist

by lietothegirls on Jul 30, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up 0 recs

Jumping the gun a little?

JT is a rookie from a small school. Not sure he’s ready to be a starting NBA PF just yet. Mikki is a veteran and a dunking machine. He only needs an offensive game plan that works with him. More pick and roles, that sort of thing. Beno is not yet fully up to speed with Mikki. Maybe this year it all gets coordinated. Mikki is not a bad player. If only the trainers could beef him up a little and put some stick-um on his hands.

by KingsFan on Jul 30, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

Kevin's team is going to lose a lot of games...

don’t get me wrong, i like the trade…. but this team is going to lose a lot of games next year as presently assembled… the pains of being in a full-rebuilding mode. For those hoping for a top-5 lottery pick, your dreams may be coming true… In my view, we need to find out who can play next year among the youngsters… if most of them can, then I believe GP will use his bevy of 2010 expirings, linked to a young talent, to lure one of the 2010 free agents BEFORE they hit the market. By getting them in the door, Kings get the FA’s bird rights and can outbid everyone among the many teams looking for 2010 cap room. If that is the plan, I agree with it, but man its going to be hard to shell out $300 a game to watch a 30 win or less team.

by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Jul 30, 2008 2:38 PM PDT 0 recs

how many games is Ron worth?

At this point, the team is the same minus Ron. I do think that we are not as good as team without him to begin the season. I think, though, that our offense will adjust – probably in fact be a bit better – certainly more fluid. Clearly, we will miss his defense and his post-up ability.

What is your estimate of the win-loss deferential without Ron?

by Kusian on Jul 30, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up 0 recs

30 wins

If Brad Miller stays healthy. The team will be better toward the end of the season than they are at the beginning.

by Carl on Jul 30, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

30 or less...

no team goes without some injury during the year… our depth is pretty young at this point so 30 seems about right to me. While I agree Artest’s offensive game does not “fit” the Kings style of play, I sure did like him in the last minutes of a game. Martin’s skill of getting to the line is less valuable in the last few possessions if he doesn’t finish the play (referees swallowing their wistle at end of games)... Again, I support the trade, just arguing that there will ge growing pains.

by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Jul 30, 2008 4:23 PM PDT 0 recs

So, you guys feel like Artest is worth about 8 – 10 less wins. Fair enough.

Personally, I have a difficult time with this sort of guestimate. Too many intangibles. Ron will be replaced by Salmons, who is a pretty decent defender himself and nearly as an effective scorer. However, he is not the same sort of threat in the post – especially at the end of games. Also, you have to factor in the growth of Martin, Beno, Garcia, Williams, and Hawes. If all their games improve from last year, then one has to factor that in as well. Of course, if Miller comes in fat and out of shape, then that is another factor still.

Assuming no major injuries and a Brad similar to last year, I suspect that the next year’s record will be very similar to this past year. I respected Ron and his game quite a bit – indeed, I spent a lot of words defending him at this site. But, I don’t think his departure is worth an 8 to 10 deficit in wins if the younger players improve their individual games and their ability to play together as a team. And, beyond that, I don’t think the West has gotten significantly better from last year.

But, hey, that’s just one guy’s guess that is certainly no more insightful than your own. Thanks for responding. When there are no real games being played this kind of stuff is about as interesting as it gets.

by Kusian on Jul 30, 2008 5:49 PM PDT up 1 recs

I think I'm going to start agreeing with you far more often than in the past

Since I couldn’t stand Artest and you generally preferred him. And I agree with all the points up above. I don’t think this Kings team was as bad as the 38 wins indicated, but I think some of that was the non-Artest factor too. I wonder how it will translate if the team is injury free this time around.

Terrific post Kusian. Definitely rec’d.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jul 30, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

Good argument

I like your argument here and am hoping that you’re right.

by Carl on Jul 30, 2008 11:16 PM PDT up 0 recs

Nice Post

Its painful when you say it like “Artest is worth about 8 -10 wins isn’t it?” I just cringe thinking that.

I like a lot of your arguments, for me I worry about my own “delusional fan factor”. For a lot of people, including me, next year’s team is going to be a lot more fun to root for that the past few years have been. I just worry about the real bad days, remember in the pre JWill/Webber, even pre-Mitch days, we had some fairly likeable teams, they were just terrible, with little hope of getting better.

I worry, a little, that we’re deluding ourselves and our guys are going to be really bad. I guess when you consider we won 30+ games with the crew from last year, the injuries and the distractions though, that should give us some hope there are good pieces here to work with.

Put me down for 23-18 at home, 14-27 on the road or 37 wins for next year. I just can’t see how we’ll be that much worse than we were, right?....right guys?

by ForThree on Jul 31, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up 0 recs

Not a bad estimate

Especially when you consider that Ron’s on court impact last year was over 57 games, not 82.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Jul 31, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up 0 recs

As long as I don't have to see this next year

I can live with it.

Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.

by KK on Jul 31, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

Last Year

Kings with Ron Artest: 30-28.

Kings without Ron Artest: 8-17

Even though there are other variables, the Kings basically played a little better than.500 ball with him in the lineup and lost more than 2 of every t3 games when he didn;t play.

I am not saying they are going to lose 2 of every 3 games they play this year, but if they do, you’re talking about 26-28 wins.

That’s fine. Petrie has cast the die, and now he has to make the best of it.

Of course, summer’s not over and maybe he ends up wheeling and dealing and takes the team back more towards a contending position. Or completely dismantles things. Time will tell.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jul 31, 2008 11:09 PM PDT 0 recs

Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.

by KK on Aug 1, 2008 12:13 AM PDT up 0 recs

Does the success of this trade

hinge on how many games teh Kings win this year? Or does the future of our team beyond this year come in to play?

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Aug 1, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up 0 recs

Kevin Martin

With Kevin Martin: 30-31. Without Kevin Martin: 8-13. I don’t think either stat is that important because basketball is not a one player sport. Like 27freethrows says – the Kings didn’t make the trade to get better this season. It’s about the future.

by Carl on Aug 2, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

My Point Exactly

I just think they are likely to be worse. I expect them to worse. At this point, it’s pretty clear Petrie has turned the page and is clearly looking at the future rather than short-term results.

And since that’s the direction, let’s commit to it fully.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 2, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up 0 recs

One problem

Reggie Theus is paid to try and win every game. He will put the best players on the floor, and the youngsters will have to earn their way up the depth chart.

If GP wants the youngsters to play, he needs to deal every veteran that currently sits above them. He will not order Theus to play the youngsters if they have not earned the opportunity over the veterans.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 2, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

You're reading from my old playbook

But I threw that sucker away the day Artest was traded.

I think things have changed. You think they’re the same. We’ll know for sure about five games after Brad’s back and probably before then.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 2, 2008 11:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Actually, I was reading from smgmatt's playbook,

since he had a brilliant thread comment back on 7/22 regarding everyone’s role (players/coach/management/owners) when it comes to short and long term goals. I guess who gets credit really isn’t important though, is it?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 3, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

Credit's not important

But I sure appreciate the kind words/recognition.

Thanks Section.

by smgmatt on Aug 3, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yep

As long as you can steal stuff, who cares where you get it from? LOL.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 4, 2008 1:01 AM PDT up 0 recs

Or whether or not you claim credit for it -

right CC?

Tough day at the pyramid?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 4, 2008 7:55 AM PDT up 0 recs

Respeck mah authoritah!

I’d guess a savvy financial guy would tell all of us (for a mere $29.99* per newsletter) that we get a poor return on investment with our responses, but then I’m not a savvy financial guy looking for some google juice outside the realm of paid for PR releases.

But that’s just me.

*guestimate. I wouldn’t hit CCR.C with TZ’s 10’ pole.

Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.

by KK on Aug 4, 2008 10:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Good thing

*You’re not a math teacher.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 5, 2008 10:04 PM PDT up 0 recs

I do understand

It’s hard to make intelligent comments about investing when your investing experience is limited to investing in 12 packs and other “reality enhancers.”

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 5, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

Probably not as tough as a day

at the no-loan foreclosure center.

by coolcatreportdotcom on Aug 5, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

I think you're right about Theus

And hope you’re wrong. The idea that young players should be better than the vets kept Jermaine O’Neal nailed to the bench for four years and Gerald Wallace in splinters for three. Jason Thompson is going to be better than Mikki Moore by playing against NBA talent, not by rotting on the bench until he’s nearly 25.

by Carl on Aug 3, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up 0 recs