A look back at the Artest tradeathon, and the stench of coming full circle complete
Left a good job in the city, Workin for the man evry night and day, And I never lost one minute of sleepin, Worryin bout the way things might have been. Big wheel keep on turnin, Proud mary keep on burnin, Rollin, rollin, rollin on the river.......
I think it's fairly clear that pretty much everyone who thought Houston was a trade partner at this stage of the game to be zero. I know I thought Houston had given up on their acquisitions end because they were limited in what they could do. Maybe, I just simply took Daryl Morey at face value. My mistake. I always knew the Rockets had the best possible outcome, but I just had given up on them after Morey's statement saying they were going to take limited and measured steps. Apparently, and the price they paid suggests this, is that acquiring Artest is in fact a measured step. So, without further ado, and if you thought this was a long opening paragraph, you haven't read anything I've written before. I suggest grabbing 3 or so beers. Just a suggestion. Do what you want.
4 months and 9 days ago I called Geoff Petrie Don Quixote. I meant it then, and I stand by it now. The only difference between Eddie Najera, JR Smith and Denver's 1st round pick (20th overall as it turned out), was that Donte Greene seems to be a true sleeper stud. But that could be argued about JR Smith too. I don't really mind that Petrie passed up Denver, but I do mind that Artest stayed on the team after the deadline. It was a mistake, and now the team had to deal with the consequences. And to quote myself if I may:
I leave with this. If Petrie thinks his options improve over the summer in sign & trades he's obviously mis-reading the market. That's entirely inept to believe Artest's value will raise over the last 30 games because he will play well or whatever. It's also equally faulty logic to assume that Petrie's vision of losing Artest for anything less than premium value is a sound strategy, unless he's absolutely mandated by the Brothers/family, to shed salary in avoiding luxury tax. If you consider re-signing Beno Udrih, a priority for me, then why would you put it at risk by not allowing the team to have certain distance from luxury tax next season by not trading Ron Artest?The only thing I've flip flopped was on the signing of Beno Udrih, and I flip flopped several times in days leading up to it. I'm satisfied with the signing, but I also was concerned about the money total at the time. I still am actually, but I'm hoping, like Kevin Martin, Beno will play into his contract. That's the only hope any of us have that the contract is worth it after years of so many bloated and unmovable contracts on the roster. And, 4 months and 9 days later, Petrie basically got what he was offered by Denver with a slight edge in the draft pick (that he had the same advantages with in 2008 that he will have in 2009), and JR Smith for Donte Greene. He got nothing better, and his patience didn't bring about anything. I'm curious why the change? Was it Artest? Was it Martin? Who knows, but I'm going to speculate on that further below do trust on that. On to the next point.
We spent days, and days, and days, arguing what type of value and which teams it would come. Hell, just yesterday even, I got into as close as I could get, in a bitter argument with Savage Beast over some fairly minor details. What kind of value Artest should fetch in return. And the like. And you know what? I was right, but just not at the scale any of us were hoping. It was actually lesser value than what we were arguing. I was hoping that the Kings would be able to dump Kenny Thomas (who doesn't around here?), along with Artest and get some cap room for 2009 along with a draft pick. It didn't happen, and as the JA Adande link says above, the Kings are apparently going after the 2010 Free Agent class. Whoopee.
I still think Cleveland, unlike LA, had the best options to aquire Artest. I do think, though, there are only 3 ways they don't acquire him.
1) Mike Brown was unsure how to use Artest offensively 2) Danny Ferry wasn't able to keep a dialogue with Geoff Petrie, or didn't want to, dating back to not being able to acquire Mike Bibby 3) Dan Gilbert overruled the aforementioned 2 because he didn't think spending the extra money would put the Cavaliers over the top 4) LeBron overruled everybody and told the organization that he thought Ron-Ron was a better rapper than him and it offended him
Okay, everything but 4 is serious, but even then, when you consider that everything Gilbert has done was to "satisfy" LeBron, then it's an important point to remember. No matter what Gilbert does, LeBron will always matter more to that Cleveland franchise because there is one of him. There are other owners who would be willing to spend what Gilbert is. Maybe not alot, but there are some.
As far as LA was concerned I think that was fueled by 3 things:
1) The Lakers desire to be a bigger part of the news than the Clippers 2) Management, primarily owner Jerry Buss and Mitch Kupchak, wanted to send a message to Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol that soft play when it counts won't be tolerated 3)That because Jerry Buss is very conscience about paying luxury tax, he didn't want to take the risk of dealing with Artest under that situation
I don't know whether Cleveland or LA ever came into play, but clearly Morey and Adelman took their shot. If I may I'm going to suggest a couple reasons why they feel Artest is all reward and little risk. One is fairly simple. If Greene isn't ready to contribute right away and get minutes on a title contending team when healthy, then it's going to be hard for Adelman to be willing to play him. After all that organization is in "winning a ring mode." Playing Greene is not the likely avenue to winning that ring. Plus, there is also the added bonus of the "Gerald Wallace problem" at some point coming into play. And by that I mean you have him for 4 years, and you're no longer a championship team, and he isn't a superstar, but he wants that type of money, and hasn't really proven much, and has given the team a problem or two about PT and various other small things not known to virtually anyone but the franchise, and it becomes a hassle. These types of things happen in the NBA. That's why Gerald Wallace is in Charlotte right now. (That and they coughed up too much dough to keep him. Kevin Martin or Gerald Wallace is always how I look at. Who would you choose today?)
Last night listening to Jim Kozimor's show he had the Radio Voice of the Rockets on, Craig Ackerman (I think that's his name), and he said the Rockets gave up nothing to get a top tier player. Well, in a sense I agree with him. The Rockets didn't have to give up any of their more prized veteran talent to get Artest. After all, how was Shane Battier going to help the Kings next season? The Kings, after all, did okay with the return for what they get. In the end, if nothing else, they didn't take a uni-lateral step back as a franchise just to deal Artest away. In a sense when Indiana delt Artest in 2006, they did in the following summer after jumping through many hoops to return Al Harrington to the franchise. I think the Kings got the better end of the deal, and Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird aren't "el stupido if" you get the drift. They just were screwed far worse in the wake of Artest's antic's and the brawl in Detroit still fresh in most people's minds by that time.
Seems like a very long time since Ron got arrested about 17 months ago. (Note: this was actually a post before Ron got arrested that day. That crapola thread existed later at some point. It's in the archives on March 5 2007 if you wanna chase it down. I don't. But here is a great post, and a great comment by Louis MG--hope you're still lurking dude--about how Artest's arrest over-shadowed Kevin Martin's winning Player of the Week.) It's been even longer since I first posted on TZ's old blog: Sac Kings Blog. (I shudder at the memory of how poorly written that stuff was. And I'm talking about my comments not Tz's writing.) StR has been on SBN for so long now it's hard to remember that old thing. I was bored the other day, so I tried to look it up, and now it's even disappeared. It's okay, but I wish I had archived some of my comments about Bibby, Peja, Adelman and other things. Oh well. The long and the short of this is that after 3 years, and then some, the Kings are at the same place they were after the Webber trade. They've treaded water since, not a total surprise, and now they've started the blow it up phase now that Artest is no longer on the roster. So where do they go?
That is the ultimate question I suppose isn't it? Where do the Kings go now that Artest is gone? Who do they trade? What kind of value are they looking for? I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but here's mine.
First, whatever you do, you don't take on longer contracts unless it's a superior player, and a fairly superior one at that, in the next several years. You do your best to keep your cap flexibility for 2010. Whether that culminates in the signing of a Free Agent (a very overrated action IMO), or a Marcus Camby type deal where a trade exception is created for the team giving up the player, or the Kings simply creating more cap room for the amount of mass talent they've decided to stand pat with. Cap Room is not about signing the LeBron's of the world. Let's not kid ourselves. LeBron is not coming to play in Sacramento. So let's not worry about it.
Second, and this is a fairly important second, you don't get over-eager because Tracy McGrady becomes available. Or an older player such as that, and you don't let your Vegas boy, 6 thou wine drinkers at that, make decisions. It's not decisions they make well. Joe and Gavin are not George. Joe and Gavin are figureheads. George is running the biggest part of their operation in Las Vegas. There is a far greater difference. It's one reason the family makes decisions. Joe and Gavin aren't trusted to make them. Families don't make decisions because they want to get together and play dominoes while getting shit faced. They do it to protect themselves against poor decisions by inner-factions against their knowledge. Have you ever listened to Joe Maloof after Rick Adelman got fired? (There are mp3 files that an older poster Pyro posted while she still posted here. She has since stopped posting too. Ugh, is all I'm going to say. If you want some of the mp3 files they are halfway down the comments to scroll down. Big up's again to her for posting them and recording them. They are a goldmine and a ton of insight to the Maloof's, Rick Adelman, Grant Napear and Mike Lamb to an extent, and even Elston Turner. It's worth hearing if you never have. But, to be fair, at this point it's mostly for historical content.) The bottom line is that ownership is there to ask questions of their basketball employee's, and create fiscal discipline. They're not there to create trades, and if they do they better have basketball background similar to Al Davis when he became owner of the Raiders, and now Al has lost his touch so it doesn't make a difference, or sit in the background and cheer like fan's. Otherwise, they're not much good in this whole rigmarole. But, after all, they cut the checks and it's hard to tell someone paying you to go fuck themselves. That's the bottom line in pro sports. Ownership that let's their people do what they need to, and have an open and honest relationship, which I think Geoff and the Maloof family have, which tends to help things work out for the better most of the time.
Geoff Petrie is an enigma wrapped in a mystery in a tomb in ancient Egypt. Nobody really knows what the guy is thinking, and when he says things like "we've had talks with them yes", especially when a trade is finished on "principle", then his crypticness tends to be a tell. After all his not saying anything about the Lakers gave a strong indication nothing was brewing there. The reason I know? Because he doesn't respond to rumors. This is years of watchng the guy work from afar. No other teams were bandied about except Detroit, and I'm sure those talks died quickly because they didn't have the package Houston did. Petrie's strength's are rather obvious. He's patient, and he drafts well. He's killed a ton of teams in this league on trades, although Geoff has given up talent, and the mix of players he put together was the actual success of the players he traded for, and that's not necessarily anything another team can do about. But team's also like to spin PR as positive as they can to get fans to buy tickets, jersey's and the like. If fans believe, accurately or not, that Geoff Petrie raped your team, it might make ownership or your management reluctant to deal with him. That's what I've seen written about Billy Beane (This is bullshit but that's just something I know to be true--want an example? The A's trade Nick Swisher to the White Sox for some of their better prospect. Okay that's a good deal, except the A's have done a terrible job drafting. So when you trade your major league players to re-stock your farm system, you're doing one thing to cover another where you've failed. In Geoff's case it's not that simple, but you get the idea.) but I don't believe it. Never have and never will. Actually I'm fairly thrilled most A's fans believe Billy is still the GM because I'm not sure how many of them would be stoked on the news that Forst is the actual GM, and has been since 2006. Oh well, not the place here for that. I'm just making an analogy. And the point about Petrie is simple. He makes excellent trades for the most part, Bibby is the best example, and Artest to a lesser extent, but he also has criticism's too. Those criticism's can't be ignored.
Anyone who has ever witnessed an argument between me and Otis goes something like this:
Meh, Otis has a point, and one that shouldn't be ignored. Petrie does the bulk of the negotiating, as he should, but ultimately he's the guy who signed the bulk of the contracts. Unfortunately though, and I'm not alone as Ron-Ron's email hysteria on the eve of Baron Davis arriving back home to Anaheim North suggests, he really believed that the Maloof's would negotiate a fair contract extension if he didn't opt out. I, and am not the only one who noticed this, when Joe Maloof goes on the air and insinuates, your millionaire's club pays attention. You don't have to own a PhD to understand that if you don't terminate your contract early, the team MUST negotiate a contract extension with you. And Ron honestly believed that. And what Ron didn't get, and I'm not exactly sure why, is that wasn't Joe's call to make. That was Geoff Petrie's. He made the call, and Ron got mad because he knew was screwed. (Artest shouldn't be that mad. He's making more money that he could have gotten via either a sign or trade or an open market deal. Josh Smith couldn't get paid, and it took Luol Deng and Emeka Okafor to get their deals after several weeks of tough negotiating to get deals they were at least interested in, or felt worth with, to sign. What's the odds in that environment that Artest gets a deal he thinks he's worth? Then again, that's another problem with Artest. I think we've gone over that enough.) Now that Artest is in Houston, and making 1.5 million more than any MLE deal he would have most likely had to accept, then one can say his moving to Houston is a positive career move. Petrie isn't taking his lumps for this deal either. Ron has worn his welcome out, and has for roughly a year and half. Nobody was gonna cry the day he was traded, and the day is come, and guess what, nobody is crying. Geoff Petrie had nowhere to go but up with a deal like this because there was no way he was going to win a Ron Artest sweepstakes. He knew it, and every league GM knew it. So Geoff did what he does best. He assess's damage and works quickly as possible to alleviate the pain. That's really what he is. He's the battlefield medic of NBA GM's. When he came to the Kings they had Mitch Richmond, Spud Webb, Walt "the Wizard" Williams--he of the one left to right crossover my now 89 year old grandmother could have guarded-- and the 8th pick in the draft that ended up being Brian Grant. (It was either Grant, Vin Baker or Eddie Jones. Had BG stayed healthy I take him in a heartbeat. But it's really a flip of a coin and Eddie Jones had the longer career. I'm just making a point.) There are more options today. For one thing Kevin Martin doesn't have the time in Mitch Richmond did. For another Kevin is better paid with better representation. (One of the most underrated things in Sacramento era history is how Mitch's contract status over the 6 years spent in the EC ended up hurting and helping the team in the short and long run.) For another Petrie's acquired all the players on the current Kings team. He isn't dealing with the messy leftovers that Jerry Reynolds left him that he inheritated from Dick "I've got a championship ring how many do you got?" Motta. (Coach, I've got two. Maybe they should listen to me. God Bless that smartass Danny Ainge.) And that is of course the point. Yesterday effects today which effects tomorrow which effects 2 days from now. It's always inter-connected, and no matter how many arguments ensue, it's always important to remember the past to be able to gauge the future with a better feel.Me: The Maloof's have done more damage with their negotiating skills.
Otis: How can you blame the Maloof's for that? Not everything is their fault you know. Petrie's job is to negotiate contract's and if they're poor contracts, that's on Petrie.
Are the KIngs better off than they were in 1994? Yeah, for alot of reasons. Jim Thomas isn't the owner anymore is probably the 2nd biggest reason. There's a stronger salary cap preventing the Kings from losing any young stud in free agency provided they aren't the dum dumb's aka Atlanta Hawks, and negotiate properly with their young talent. You have Geoff Petrie who has a firm handle on where he wants to take this franchise. If it's let the young talent grow with the older "young" talent like Garcia, Martin, Salmons and Udrih, than I say so be it. That's a better plan than Minnesota has, and they've got a pretty good starting point in Al Jefferson and Kevin Love potentially. In the salary cap age, foresight is the most incredible thing to have. But, and this is a rather big butt, it's also important to get luck. Every championship team has had it. Every single one. The Celtic's of the 50's and 60's. Anybody here know how the C's got Bob Cousy? They got the short end (or so they thought at the time) of a dispersal draft because they thought he was some New York swingin dick showboat who couldn't lead a team after watching him play 4 years at Holy Cross. Guess Red Auerbach ain't perfect huh? The point is that when the Celtic's got him their franchise's fortunes changed, and having made that type of mistake, it taught Auerbach to think out of the box. 17 championship's later, and one motherfucking famous parque, it's safe to say the Boston Celtic's have done as much as anything basketball "team" to shape the history of basketball in the world. That's important to remember. It's almost important to remember that Auerbach worked at it too. Petrie still has touch to run this team. Sure, people like Carl were frustrated. Shit, so was I. I stopped watching the Kings after the trade deadline because I got tired of Ron Artest on the floor. I wanted him gone, and it was practically impossible to stomach watching him game in & game out as the Kings wound down the season towards a high lottery pick that was slated to not make the impact that a top 5 or 7 pick probably would have. But, and this is a rather big but, one way would define luck is to have a player who drafted at 12th overall ends up being a superstar and the best player drafted in several years. That would be one definition of luck, yes? Am I saying Jason Thompson will be Karl Malone. Hell no minions don't be Corky from "Life goes On." At the same time it's always possible. With young players you just don't know. And who knows about Greene? He showed some promise in Summer League too. (Or Bobby Brown. Didn't he show that at least when you combine his feats in Berlin?) It may be that Reggie Theus turns out to be a better coach of young players than he is of bitchy, enigmatic, mercurial veterans. Luck, intelligence, foresight, keeping in touch with history, and paying attention are how teams win rings. It's quite possible the Kings could be back at some point. It's sure as hell better to contemplate the future now that Neutral has left the building isn't it?
The bottom line for me is this. If you move Reef (or have his salary taken off with a medical retirement), then you've lost his salary starting next season. That's a good thing. If you can trade away Kenny Thomas with either John Salmons or Bobby Jackson that's a good thing. Especially if you cut that salary in half with a quality player coming in return. With options Geoff Petrie can make things happen. He can decide to negotiate an extension with Francisco Garcia rather than letting Garcia decide he wants to go the Josh Childress route. (This should be a concern for the Kings. Cisco speaks Spanish. He goes to the Spanish League and makes big bucks, that's a problem for the KIngs if they want to get tough with negotiations with him. That's not a road I'm interested in seeing the Kings take.) I have said that the 2 biggest priorities are trading Ron Artest and signing Cisco to an extension. Well, the first priority happened, and it's time to work on the Second. Trades with Geoff happen in a 24 hour span, but negotiations can take weeks. So why not start the process now? Or at least in mid-August. It's safe to say, though, that if Cisco isn't extended by training camp, unless he wants to be in Restricted-Free Agency (RFA) next off-season, it's a failure on the Kings part to keep their young core together, a trade with Artest that certainly helps move the team in that direction, when trading Artest was one purpose of reaching that goal. It's one thing to want a guy gone like I've said many times. It's another to do so with a purpose, and I believe it's very possible the Kings have done that. Sure, it's not perfect or anything, but that's the real world. The NBA can be tough to trade certain types of players, and if you're trading Dwight Howard, is there a big equal of his talent? If he's the big man in the world who is going to match him? (How many big man do you think it would take to combine Dwight Howard? Mental exercise to keep you sharp. So keep up people.) Hence, why trading Artest was so difficult. Not only was he difficult to trade from a personality standpoint, he was also so underpaid that it made a limited select market on who was going to acquire him. Either you acquire Artest and receive an overpaid crap-pile like Kenny Thomas, or you trade a mid levelish player like Bobby Jackson with a young player and draft picks. Petrie doesn't have a lot of options with Artest unless he was making more money. And unfortunately, that's what made Artest so appealing to begin with. He is underpaid.
Bottom line is that Section nailed it last night. "Kevin Martin, line 1 holding for you. Your destiny is calling". Absolutely nailed it. TZ nailed the whole full circle thing too. Actually he pretty much nailed all of it, right down with the picture and Shakespeare-esque (if not him some classic writer I'm sure I've never read) writing. Now the Kings can dump a Mikki Moore for cap room. Now moving Bobby Jackson and trying to attach Kenny Thomas to any deal may be easier particularly at the deadline or sometime during the season. There are alot of things that are possible when teams are openly and actively seeking deals. The closer it gets to 2009 is the closer Kenny Thomas has some (as much as a crap-pile can have) to trade value. I'm game for that. In fact who isn't so we can beat the living crap out of you know. (I would venture to say there isn't many community enforced rules, but disliking Kenny Thomas is definitely near or top of the list.) Finding out about Spencer Hawes and Jason Thompson would be nice. Do they have all-star talent? Are they consistent contributors to a title team? Do we have these answers on July 30th. No, of course not. Why would we expect to? But I know one thing if I know nothing else. There is no way the Kings can find out answers about their young talent and future spending every day catering to the whims of a Queensbridge madman on the loose in the Evil Cowtown. You can't do it. Reggie Theus had to spend time, and massaging his own ego simultaneously, defending Ron Artest publicly. He did such a poor job that it ended up turning the whole franchise's head. What Reggie ended up doing was waking up the ownership to just how difficult a PR cover up job Ron Artest really is for a team in transistion mode like the Kings are. Frankly, and I don't think TZ has gotten enough credit for this, but in SpringTime 07 he did an interview with Bill Bradley, then an editor, and still may be today, about the type of web coverage the Bee did. Ever since TZ leveled fair and honest criticism's it has gotten better.
For those who don't think people in the Kings organization read this blog you're wrong. They most certainly and definitely do. It's one forum, a fairly unusually intelligent forum, and compendium of opinions that pretty much hit every Kings issue under the sun. When you have a community that does that, and doesn't enforce specifically and spectacuraly one sided idea's that only partially reach the point that the enforcment is looking to seek, than the point of having an opinion is lost. Did StR force Artest to be traded? No, again, of course not. Did StR help the Bee re-think it's web coverage? It almost certainly did. Newspapers are struggling with income from every angle, and they're losing readership by the day because the Internet has been such a broad and complete source of everything from anorexia to zylophones. It's kinda hard to top that if you print a headline "Bush read's a newspaper without making a fart joke while sniffing Cocaine." People get tired of that crap, and the Bee has found a way to make coverage of a tired one horse media town somewhat worthwhile. And it didn't start exactly with TZ's criticism, but it helped get the ball rolling. Sam Amick is a terrific beat writer whom the Bee and KIngs fans are equally lucky to have. He doesn't take anybody's crap, and he's the best source of Kings information I've seen fans have since Mark Kreidler. (For whatever reason I'm into political analogies today. I saw a political caption over a column from a Seattle Times editorialist with a caption of T-Rex representing the US debt with W as the master of T-Rex pulling him around on a chain while McCain and Obama watched. Extremely amusing. I'd link to it, but I doubt the Seattle Times website has it. If it was in the Bee I hope you saw it. For whatever it's worth I enjoy reading the Editorial's more than I enjoy reading anything else. Like the 20 cent plastic bag tax that's taking effect in 2009. It's stupid, and will end up hurting the environment more in the long run with more plastic being expended. But that's unfortunately the society we live in today. We don't quite seem to get cause and effect the way we should. And it's not just politics. It's sports too.) I'm from Sacramento. Graduated from Sac High until it sunk into the depths of KJ's hands. And it's sunk further. Not a great shock, but whatever. The school had sucked for years. The problem with Sac is that it's a company town. Always has been when I lived there, and probably always will be. People aren't going against the grain much there. (And this is not just Sacramento either to be fair. But in a city that's unusual, too many people don't seem to think outside the box like they should. It's a shame. Great city, nice people, fairly good climate, and a kickass place to go anywhere when the local watering hole gets old. We all leave where we live.) Talk radio is contrived for chrissake. Talk Radio is about opponent's anger screaming at each other. And even that's boring because it's so predictable. Sacramento is unfortunately a low corporate town due to the huge presence the bureaucracy the State of California takes up. Everywhere between 3rd and Alhambra do you find State buildings that do this, that, or the other. What isn't there tends to be city oriented type stuff, and the County of Sacramento has quite a bit of office's too. In otherwords it's a company town. And as a favorite book character of mine said," Bureaucracy clogs the imagination." Actually, I don't think it's all that it does, but I definitely think the power to think critically of the Kings is almost generally absent in most area's of Kings talk. Actually, and I don't think is a total critcism of just KIngs fans, but sports talk in general. (Or Americans if you want to take a broader scope.) It comes down to this, or it comes down to that. It's one reason I'm not a "Scoop" fan. He's covered the Lakers, and all that junk, but for every piece of good information he provides, he provides his opinion. Some of that is necessary, I mean shit, he does report on the NBA, but some of that is overboard. (He is also a Lakers fan, even though he won't publicly admit it.) We don't live in an era where information is publicly and willing shared, but in an era where information is withheld with a grudge by TV, Radio and some Newspaper sources. That's why, among other things, is why StR and other blogs like it, provide such a recourse. So, in one sense the interest of 1140 to make certain types of news on the Kings sound better than it is, and on the other hand you have the Bee which doesn't have a full leg to stand on. It has to report news straight on, and not hold forth against opinions because the exist. The full disclosure of informatino that most cities just doesn't happen in Sacramento. That isn't an accident. It works well, but not like it did. With blogs such as this, or even Kingsfans.com to an extent, Kings fans now have a recourse to say what they want, or up to a point, for the most part how they want. You can't do that on 1140. I can't criticize the Maloof's for poor posturing in negotiating on Grant's show. I can here. There is no guarantee anyone anywhere will agree, but that opinion can be heard. Ron Artest is the greatest proof of this.
Coming as completely full circle, you have why Artest was traded, and the reason's other teams may not have gotten involved. You have the timing and the difficult of trading a player and low monetary value such as Artest. You have some glimpse at the future and what it may bring. You have the value of free information in a fairly tightly clustered media information area like the Evil Cowtown. What hasn't been discussed, and needs to, is how this team will miss Artest. And make no mistake, and I say this knowing full well I wanted the guy gone, and knowing the team will be better eventually, this team will suffer a bit without Ron Artest. So the question is how?
We all hated watching Ron dribble for 10 seconds and jack up an off balance slightly to the left from 20 feet away from the hoop. We all screamed about why he wasn't on the block, or how was it he so naturally and effortessly killed ball movement on contact. But that was also, in a sense, sort of like Chris Webber before him with his superstar complex, a benefit too. You want a guy on your team willing to take bad shots and trying to take the game over. Most NBA teams, outside of maybe Detroit, seem to want that. Reggie Theus certainly played that angle up, even though it was far more subtle than it was loud as day, unlike his mouth. Kevin Martin was spared this. His efficiency is one of his greatest attributes, but the greater question is that without Ron Artest will he be willing to take those bad shots, or that subtle criticism of how he gets shots off, to help the KIngs? Ron Artest took that within stride. He wanted to be the "Man", so he did those off balance bad shot clock shots. Did he contribute to the poor convolution of those possessions? Absolutely, and that's what most of us reacted to I suspect. But, and this is rather strong but, Kevin Martin has relied heavily on Brad Miller's passing skills to get 10-20 points a night off easy layup's and FT attempts. If Kevin can't take guys one on one consistently every night, while beating double teams in the process, is going to be the true measure of Kevin's next step. Only time will tell on this. A greater problem perhaps, or maybe this is my imagination going with a monster fanpost that keeps taking off and then some, is how will Kevin deals with the media and his time being more of demand? After all, when Ron went into a city he was generally the first player interviewed. More teams were interested in his thoughts on just about everything from gardening to whether organic chicken is the ticket. Martin will now get those questinos. He won't be ignored. He will have his face on gameday programs, and on the Kings season guide. All those massive responsibilities, that Webber and Artest did, are now on Martin. Do I think this is a great problem? As I've already mentioned about how little footprints the media in the EC make, it's not going to create many problems for K-Mart. He already has Sam Amick's ear, and as April's little tussle proved, he's getting his way. His comment about wanting more leadership in Ailene's column had as much subtlety as "Ron go the fuck away" would. He was saying, as plainly as he could, that the team was his to take over. It was his time,"It's our time...It's our tyyyyymmmmmeeee!" (Warning: Complimentary Goonies quote now over.) And it is now. It's his time. But the day it goes bad for him, the day he misses the Jump shot when it was all on the line and the Kings are hung in the process, how does he handle that? Does he have that ultimate alpha male ego that Artest has on the court? We don't know any of these answers for certain, but that's the beauty of trading Artest now. Martin asked for it, and he got it. It's put up or shutup time kid. You may think your game, but only April holds that answer.
In the end the Kings are kinda like that top tier college team. People debate the worthiness of just about everything from the mascot to the Head Coach playing enough guys. We obsess about the team to the point where it makes us seem crazy. (Portland and Utah has similar fan bases to this extent. I believe this is in part due to the fact that both Utah and Portland have college programs making strong impacts in tough conferences.) What is Sacramento's excuse? Sac State, the next dynasty? I'm going to stay silent, and snicker at the "Go Hornets" chant. It's a commuter school. Unless you get an all-world talent that every single school recruiter missed, the Hornets will never be an upper echelon team with the resources they have. It's the way the cookie crumbles. So if there isn't this mass hysteria over a local college (And I don't consider Pacific a local college because it's in Stockton), and I don't remember ever listening to 1140 with tons of college calls about Cal and Stanford, then what is it? It's a bit hard to describe, but it's like the terrible parent being angry at their kid being taken away. I may not love it, but you ain't taking it away from me either. And that's the closest analogy I can come to how a team in the middle of cow country to the south, wine country and the bay area to the west, casino's to the east, and so much agriculture around it that it make's your teeth hurt come farmer market's time. Why does this have anything to do with Ron Artest? Because he's a media whore. Because noone else on the Kings is nearly as well known in the national media as Artest is. Because the Kings are a team with fans worldwide from Korea and China to Florida New York City and everywhere in between. In a place where no college team diverts any attention, where the nearest big college and pro teams are 80 miles down the road, including teams many of us root for, where many consider it such a 2nd rate town because of the low tourism it attracts, and partly because it's too close to San Francisco to considered to be a major metropolis, and because the amount of jealousy that other fans in pro sports have of Sacramento because the fans go there to scream their asses's off, it matters because Kevin Martin in Sacramento matters like Kobe Bryant in LA. And that's why, no matter what anyone says, kinda like knowing an open secret more people should get in the internet age, the Artest trade, despite the downside it brings in the exposure it will bring of players like Martin, Garcia, and Salmons, is the best thing that has happened to this franchise since signing Vlade Divac. Because, and only because, this type of thing matters more here, it will end up being something that surprises everyone. People will care more, and not less, because now the team doesn't have a guy who jumped into the stands, had fights with his wife, forgot to feed his dog, asked time off for a rap album with his prior team, sent multiple email's in disappointment because the team he was on wouldn't negotiate an extension he thought he was due, and because his ego forced every aspecct of the organization to revolve around him, this forces a new direction, a welcome direction, in the new era of the Kings. It's about time, and even better, it's fun again.
There must be some kind of way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
Theres too much confusion
I cant get no relief
Businessman they drink my wine
Plow men dig my earth
None will level on the line
Nobody of it is worth
Hey hey
No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke but uh
But you and I weve been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hours getting late
Hey
Hey
All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Bare-foot servants to, but huh
Outside in the cold distance
A wild cat did growl
Two riders were approachin
And the wind began to howl
Hey
Oh
All along the watchtower
Hear you sing around the watch
Gotta beware gotta beware I will
Yeah
Ooh baby
All along the watchtower
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Wow Pookie
You went all out for this one, huh? Will read it a little bit later to give it the time it deserves
by eduardo_m7 on
Jul 30, 2008 10:17 PM PDT
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It'll take 30-45 mins
It took me nearly an hour to edit, and I’ve written over 30 of these level length posts before. I’ve gotten pretty good at editing. (I wanted to create more paragraphs, and I may have to down the road.)
For everyone else: I hope you like it, or don’t whatever. That’s the beauty of opinion. I won’t be around for the next couple of weeks (I’m moving, not back to Sacramento, and may not have internet until I get settled).
I am sorry about the longish paragraphs towards the end, and if I have time I’ll try to edit it for better reading in the future. I just had to finish this tonight because I have to get to work tonight. Peace yall.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 30, 2008 10:24 PM PDT
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Hurry back
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Jul 30, 2008 10:26 PM PDT
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I was going to read it over breakfast,
but I’m on NutriSystems, so I better make it breakfast and lunch.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Jul 30, 2008 10:25 PM PDT
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LOL yeah it's long
Hopefully worth it too.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 30, 2008 10:26 PM PDT
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Does that stuff actually work?
I saw a commercial on nutrisystem and it said the results are atypical.
BOOK IT!
by kingme18 on
Jul 31, 2008 8:19 PM PDT
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I've lost 21 pounds in 10 weeks.
That Kings fan TV appearance was a wake up call.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Jul 31, 2008 8:30 PM PDT
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My wife is a weight watchers fanatic.
She gained a lot of weight during both of her pregnancies and its worked wonders both times. She is currently 17 lbs lighter today than she was 20 months ago when we first found out she was pregnant. 5’-9”, 123 and an attorney to boot, damn I’m good.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Jul 31, 2008 9:18 PM PDT
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My wife was on the Jenny Craig program once -
I was on the Roger Craig program – I’d run over anyone between me and the refrigerator.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Jul 31, 2008 9:29 PM PDT
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My wife
Is just a bigger, better woman than when we met (sigh)
eternal skeptical optimist
by lietothegirls on
Aug 1, 2008 10:50 AM PDT
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This is assuming
None of y’all did any exercising.
BOOK IT!
by kingme18 on
Aug 2, 2008 10:58 AM PDT
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i might have to print this out and let it be my reading for the summer :)
by kingsTV on
Jul 30, 2008 11:43 PM PDT
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Good god...
When are you going to publish this thing into a book??
by CloudyEyes on
Jul 31, 2008 12:14 AM PDT
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I think
I agree with you. And it’s why the Kings matter more to me for the last 20 years or so since moving to the valley then the 9ers, Raiders, A’s and Giants, Cal and Stanford did when I lived in the Bay Area.
There is something almost pure (not perfect) about the Kings this coming season. This team is going to be what it is, good or bad with mostly very young players and I’m excited about the season even if we only win 30 games. I want to see whether if what Petrie has put together is going to develop into a team that is going to grow together and learn how to win together or not. It was not possible for that to happen with Artest on the team.
Very nice post. It is undoubtedly the most Keroacian thing I have ever read in sports. I wasn’t sure you were going to pull it off but you did in the end.
by Bluejohn on
Jul 31, 2008 1:39 AM PDT
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I like your "almost pure" statement.
Very true, kind of a wait and see if we really have a star in Martin, can Salmons really be that good as a starter, is Beno the answer, can Brad rebound again, and will Theus let the kids play(I think he is the right man for this job), organic feel.
To Pookey- nice job, long winded as always but a good culmination post, summing up a lot of inner and outer feelings from the Ron Artest ride. The one thing I really want to extract is the luck paragraph. I really believe that this is what will make or break this franchise going forward. More focused, I want to see if the Kings can get lucky with one of the the three 1st/2nd year players of Hawes, JT and Greene. I personally believe that Petrie has stumbled or genius(ed) his way into a star in Thompson. I’m not sold on Hawes as a top tier NBA player, more of a Nick Collison type, and Greene is new to me. If Petrie has done it again, finding a mid-to-late round gem, this team will be back in 2010, if not, there will be a lot of holes to fill in the big FA year.
I have fought the good fight along side many of you against the likes of CC and others on the Artest front and although I’m slightly apprehensive on whether Ron will blow this thing, I feel relieved that it is mostly over. Here’s to enjoying a 30-35 win season with our beloved Kings.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Jul 31, 2008 9:20 AM PDT
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Here’s to enjoying a 30-35 win season with our beloved Kings.
That sums up my feelings in a nutshell. I’m all about winning as many games as we can. I’m also about seeing if we have a team that can be a serious contender two years down the road. But mostly I’m all about watching a bunch of players I genuinely like gel and improve together. I would rather see that in a 30 win season, than the crap I saw last year 100x over. I may even make LPA delete her previous games collection, just so we can start fresh.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
by SavageBeast on
Jul 31, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
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don't do that
and lose Kevin Martin going for 40? Doubys Laker explosion? Martin for the game-winner? Shawes thunderous dunkability?
No, sir. Last season was harsh, but there are some sweet memories.
Now I can put my pink lace bra and panties back on. - Kfan in Korea
by iashwash on
Jul 31, 2008 11:40 AM PDT
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My favorite?
Check the signature line.
Let's go home.-Kevin Martin
by LeaguePassAddict on
Jul 31, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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Those were all sweet Asswash and LPA.
I also liked the Hawes gets 12 blocks over a 3-4 game span, and the Miller back to back?(or 2 in 3 games?) double-doubles animal style. Martin getting 20+ for the 1st 6-7? games, Salmon’s game winner. Lot’s of good stuff last year.
And yes I said Asswash, I will refer to you as Asswash until you change your signature. ;p
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Jul 31, 2008 4:54 PM PDT
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hahaha
it’s on
Now I can put my pink lace bra and panties back on. - Kfan in Korea
by iashwash on
Aug 2, 2008 9:27 AM PDT
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Dude-
He just called you an enema. :)
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 2, 2008 9:55 AM PDT
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The record may be worse,
but I hope not. Either way, I don’t have the same feeling of dread I’ve felt for the last couple of years.
Sports should be fun and exciting for us fans, it doesn’t always translate into a winning record but when it does it’s transcendent.
I hope the Kings have that type of season.
Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.
by KK on
Jul 31, 2008 11:59 PM PDT
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Kerouac,
is the most fitting description of Pookey’s posts I’ve ever read. They can be obscure, obtuse, and downright confusing. He may not be as talented a writer as Kerouac, but it’s a very very apt description of his writing style. I suspect Pookey knows the NBA better than Jack Kerouac ever did. How dangerous would Pook be if anyone ever sponsored him on a league wide tour? On the Road with Pookey, not to mention the Fear and Loathing posts a la Hunter S. Thompson.
Pookey’s posts can also be filled with insight if you can make your way (and the time to make your way) through the excess to find his points. (Yes, Pookey, you can use this as a book jacket pimp). You should just let LPA or I edit it first (hopefully LPA steps up because she’s a far better editor than I would be…just sayin’).
Rec+1 because I can’t give you Rect+infinity (and I don’t think I’ve full digested it yet, so I may withdraw my Rec if I figure out you were mocking me at any point. Just kidding, Rec+ anyway.)
Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.
by KK on
Jul 31, 2008 11:53 PM PDT
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I find the Hunter S Thompson references funny for 2 reasons
I don’t wear glasses, and I don’t do drugs ala speed, LSD/shrooms, pot. prescription meds like vike or anything like that. Alkiehol is enuf to make me a fruit loop. (And, yes, I know alkiehol is a drug. But I wrote this sober so I’m not sure what my excuse is.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 1, 2008 9:50 AM PDT
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"bottom-line"
I like how you started two different paragraphs with “bottom-line” and BOTH were in the middle of your enormous post! I disagree that Denver’s purported offer of J.R. Smith (a very troubled individual who’s contract is expired and is due to make millions if resigned), Najera (expired contract, not likely to be resigned) and a 2008 pick are even close to equivalent of BJax (expires next year, thus we get one year of his presence/tutelage and filing a critical need as a backup PG); a 2008 first rounder in Greene making less than a million per (who GP clearly had his eye on and Houston angled to get (maybe for us?) and a first rounder next year (at about the same price).
I generally agree with you that GP appears to have a plan that hinges on acquiring as much reasonably priced young talent that might be paired with an expiring contract (Miller/K9/Reef/Moore/BJax) to obtain one of the prized FA’s in 2010 (agree, it ain’t LeBron)... my supposition has been that getting that FA in 2009 from a team that figures it will lose the player without compensation is our best chance (because of the bird right to pay significantly more than anyone else). Best recent example: Celts trading young stud Jefferson for KG because McHale blinked (and is an idiot). So let’s say JT turns out to be promising after a season-and-a-half, and the Raptors don’t think they can hang on to Bosh in 2010, might they trade him for JT, Salmons plus one of our expirings? who knows, but now there appears to be options.
My bottom-line: We asked for a full committment to rebuilding… we have it now and it might be ugly in the W/L column for awhile. We need to remember that.
by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on
Jul 31, 2008 11:42 AM PDT
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Some of what I said you understood
But I think you missed some of it. I’m going to have to edit this when I have time. Some stuff needs re-phrasing, and many paragraphs were too convoluted and too long.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 31, 2008 11:55 AM PDT
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Pookeyguru--The Stephen King of Sports Posters
His posts are very wordy, well written, and the scare the heck out of you if you read them too late at night. All hail the king.
"Being loquacious and being right aren't necessarily always the same."
GP, the man, the myth, the legend, puts the smackdown on Reggie
by SavageBeast on
Jul 31, 2008 12:47 PM PDT
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Holy cow!
But I think you missed some of it. I’m going to have to edit this when I have time. Some stuff needs re-phrasing, and many paragraphs were too convoluted and too long.We made our way through it once and now you want us to read the edited version?
Sheesh!
Actually, I look forward to the Cliff’s Notes version of the original.
: )
Your Sacramento Kings: Another day, another drama.
by KK on
Aug 1, 2008 12:03 AM PDT
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I'm not going to shorten it
I’m going to correct mis-spellings that I missed, and I’m going to shorten the longer paragraphs at the end.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 1, 2008 9:47 AM PDT
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Never dissappointed
Always a pleasure to read the thoughts of a man who teeters between genius and insanity, often drifting back and forth between the two. As usual, an excellent read, full of insights and ideas I hadn’t yet considered. Specifically, I completely agree about the urgency of beginning negotiations with Cisco, an idea I haven’t seen mentioned here yet (if someone mentioned it and I missed it, I do apologize). I also thoroughly agree with the statement that this move is on par with the Divac signing in terms of significance to the evolving direction of the franchise.
Thanks for the read. Luckily, none of my bosses noticed that I extended my lunch an extra 15 minutes so I could finish reading it all in one sitting.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on
Jul 31, 2008 1:16 PM PDT
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To Ex G and SB
Glad you enjoyed it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Jul 31, 2008 1:24 PM PDT
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For the slow readers...
I suggest this cool internet app to help you get through pookey’s blogs quicker. Go here.
by Ball in Cup on
Jul 31, 2008 2:19 PM PDT
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OMG
Don’t do it! To get thru Pookey’s entire post using that thing would require a setup similar to the brainwashing scene in A Clockwork Orange.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Jul 31, 2008 5:02 PM PDT
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one of the greatest scenes ever.
Although I enjoy the 2nd home invasion/battle over the penis statue more. There is nothing worse than being bludgeon to death with a giant ceramic penis.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Jul 31, 2008 9:20 PM PDT
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Good stuff Pookey
Have a good move.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Jul 31, 2008 5:03 PM PDT
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pookey,
You are the Hunter S. Thompson of StR. Well done. Rec’d.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Jul 31, 2008 7:45 PM PDT
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great
a really fun read chock full of stuff I didn’t know and stuff I never thought I’d see in the same post. Plus, a magical mystery tour of the Kings past and future history and even a Nick Swisher reference. Too bad the main premise is so off base.
Pookey, you say:
”...And, 4 months and 9 days later, Petrie basically got what he was offered by Denver with a slight edge in the draft pick (that he had the same advantages with in 2008 that he will have in 2009), and JR Smith for Donte Greene. He got nothing better, and his patience didn’t bring about anything.”
You sound pretty sure of yourself here, when in fact this was a golden opportunity to do a classy mea culpa and admit you may have gone a little overboard by calling Petrie “a fuckin idiot” last year just because he didn’t bite on the insulting Denver deal.
By almost any objective standard this deal is better and creates more opportunity for the Kings down the road, and that’s pretty obvious.
In terms of potential to help this team long term Donte’ Greene > JR Smith. Greene is as you say “a true sleeper stud”. But if it can be argued that Smith still has that kind of upside, the argument is a hell of a lot less convincing.
Sure, Smith has sporadically had some strong games, but he’s also proven to be a headache at times both on and off the court. He was in George Karl’s doghouse more often than not for jacking up crazy ass threes. He’s been suspended for on-court brawls, caught up in off-court nightclub hassles, and been at the wheel in two car crashes (one of them fatal). He’s 23 years old now and this is gonna be his 5th season in the NBA. This is what we want for Ron Artest? Sounds like out of the frying pan and into the fire to me.
Not to mention he’s a two-guard, pookey. Whose minutes would he get on the Kings?
Greene on the other hand is only 20. He was a smash sensation in the Summer League. He’s got the length and athleticism that should earn him some minutes on this team as a 3 or possibly a situational 4. In short, the kid has better odds if you’re rolling the dice. Throw in a million dollars and the expiring contract in the form of a more tradable Bobby Jackson(!) instead of Najera, and although I dig a Cervantes reference as much as the next guy, the “Petrie is Don Quixote” angle breaks down.
As for the comment: ”...the Kings are apparently going after the 2010 Free Agent class. Whoopee.”
That, in fact, is the right way to go. Adding youth and salary flexibility need to continue for the rebuilding process to succeed, but free agency will be the cherry on top of the sundae; the final piece in getting the Kings back into the championship stratosphere. As we’ve just witnessed, step by step Petrie is maneuvering the franchise in that direction.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on
Aug 1, 2008 3:08 AM PDT
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Not sure whether to call you Jared or Mucho
But I’m going to call you Jared cuz calling you Mucho just seems stupid. Now that I have settled we have gone at it over philospohical differences in the past. So be it. Not a problem there. Except with this statement:
You sound pretty sure of yourself here, when in fact this was a golden opportunity to do a classy mea culpa and admit you may have gone a little overboard by calling Petrie "a fuckin idiot" last year just because he didn’t bite on the insulting Denver deal.Let me get this straight. I passed a chance to do a mea culpa by admitting Petrie was right over, an admittedly talented, 28th pick in the draft? Umm, okay. So, let me recap. JR Smith, who wouldn’t be on the roster because he should have been waived or renounced to become an un-restricted free agent, along with Eddie Najera, and the Nuggets pick, which turned out to be the 20th pick, and the Houston deal is better? So, paying 7 million more because the Kings needed Linas Kleiza is insulting? I don’t get that. Still don’t. So not only am I not giving anyone an apology for calling Don Quijote “Don Quixote”, I bristle a bit that Petrie made the right move today. (It’s too easy to just point out the Kings could have had Greene at the 20th pick.)
I don’t care about the 2010 FA class because I think re-building a team through Free-Agency is one of the most overrated things unless you’re LA, Orlando, Miami, New York or Chicago. Unless you got big money or honey’s with big titties sitting on beach’s to draw ignorant tall millionaires in shorts, then how do the Kings in a market decidely against them, particularly in tradition, work for them when every team in the league is after the same thing they are?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 1, 2008 9:56 AM PDT
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I think this is the better deal
We would have wound up with Greene or Chalmers or Hibbert or someone like that at #20. For Petrie’s patience we added a backup PG with an expiring contract, and a late 1st round pick for next year, where Petrie has had success before (Martin/Garcia/Wallace).
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 1, 2008 12:50 PM PDT
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I sorta agree
but with less venom
eternal skeptical optimist
by lietothegirls on
Aug 1, 2008 10:56 AM PDT
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Venom?
Venom did you say? Ah, but it wouldn’t be pookey without a little venom and vitriol, would it.?
Not that I see any reason for things to get personal when people disagree around here, but I gotta say, it’s pretty laugh inducing to be informed that your Sactown handle “sounds stupid” by a guy who calls himself “pookeyguru”. 8>)
Not that it matters but “Mucho Moss” is a (slightly veiled) literary reference, BTW. It goes with my profile icon. Somebody out there knows what it is I’m pretty sure.
Anyhoo, turning to address pookey for uno momento t I think you’ll see the light about JR Smith eventually, buddy. He’s trouble with a capital T. Petrie held out for a better deal and he got it.
I await your next post anxiously!
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on
Aug 1, 2008 10:42 PM PDT
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I didn't say your name was stupid
I said calling you Mucho vs Jared made less sense.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 9, 2008 10:12 AM PDT
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No; actually
you didn’t say it ”...made less sense”. You said ”... it sounds stupid”.
It’s right up there in your quote. See?
Let’s assume there’s a difference between you said and what you meant. ;>)
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on
Aug 9, 2008 5:34 PM PDT
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correction...
Your exact quote said that calling me by my Sactown handle ”... just seems stupid”. Hate to split hairs, but again, that’s ain’t the same thing as saying it ”... made less sense”.
For example, if I’d said that your explanation didn’t make sense, that would be one thing, but if I’d said your explanation sounded stupid that would be a little more, well, venomous, wouldn’t it?
A simple, “oops, sorry. That didn’t come off the way I meant it” would have been one possible response.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on
Aug 9, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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You're right that would be one response
I wasn’t sorry for saying it, and everyone knows that. Why issue a dumb, shallow, and fake apology?
On one hand you’re correct about the explanation didn’t make sense to you, and all that, of course, but this is an opinion based place. That’s what we’re tying here. In fact as I type this the Artest trade hasn’t even been contemplated (despite the early squawkings of a potential Rockets back-out after hearing any/all of Ron-Ron’s comments, and I’m not saying one person is responsible for this, but several people certainly did on, say, August 2nd that it was possible) despite every forecasting that it will be.
That being said I chose to call you Jared over mucho or MM, because I did. It was a mistake, but not because I said it seemed stupid. Hope the battle was as good for as it was me.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 12, 2008 1:16 PM PDT
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typing here (where it says tying here 4 lines down)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Aug 12, 2008 1:16 PM PDT
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I couldn't read it all
But I munched off a pretty good chunk starting from the end. I liked the part about Theus having better luck with the kids than a mercurial whatever you called him. I think Theus is well suited for this coming off his college stint. Tough but understanding is going to be his theme.
I just wonder, though, whether he will truly give the youngsters the time they need to show and grow, or whether we will see Mikki, Salmons, Miller playing 35 minutes a game when none of them has any business really seeing much of the court on a team in full rebuilding mode.
I think Petrie would do everybody a favor by moving those guys this summer if he can find a way. If we are going with the kids, let’s not do it half-assed.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 1, 2008 10:00 PM PDT
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Maybe...
We’re not doing it half-assed. Do you really think that if JT is what Theus and GP thought he was that Mikki will be starting after the first trimester (or even 20 games) of the season? Salmons isn’t exactly old, and we did just sign him last summer, so let’s give him a chane to play and see how things shape up. Miller is also certifiably the starter until the time when/if Hawes can step it up. I also hate the “Let’s turn around and trade B-Jax!” Comments. He’s not going anywhere, I think. He’s a legit back up PG, a fan favorite and probably going to retire a Sacramento King. I’m perfectly happy starting the season this way….
PG – Beno, B-Jax, Brown
SG – Martin, Cisco, Douby (unless we can trade him)
SF – Salmons, Greene
PF – Mikki, JT, Shelden, Crap Pile
C – Miller, Hawes, Wright
and maybe by season’s end Having JT, Hawes and/or Greene starting.
You take that core and by 2010 when we add LeBron, we should be contenders. :)
by killerking on
Aug 1, 2008 11:43 PM PDT
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So you're saying
Cisco should play 10 minutes a game? Hmmm. I’d much rather deal Salmons and free up those minutes to start Cisco at small forward. Ci’s always going to be valuable no matter what role you have him in, and he’d probably move back to a 6th-man role in our fantasy future.
At C, unless I am mistaken, Wright is long gone.
Re: BJax, we’re not going anywhere anyway, so I say give Brown the blow. BJax is a good guy to have around, but he’ll probably be doing more “coaching” than playing this season.
Douby’s going to need to be given at least 10-15 minutes a game if not more early in the season as we can figure out if we’re going to keep him. Of course, that’s assuming he’s not sent packing in the meantime.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 2, 2008 11:28 AM PDT
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Be careful
you’re starting to sound like me:
we’re not going anywhere anyway, so I say give Brown the blow.
That’s where you come in and call me a tanker.
Douby’s going to need to be given at least 10-15 minutes a game if not more early in the season as we can figure out if we’re going to keep him. Of course, that’s assuming he’s not sent packing in the meantime.
And this is where you go on a rant about the best players play and you have to earn your minutes.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 3:42 PM PDT
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The Game has Changed
The tankers have won. Geoff Petrie has waved the white flag. It’s time to rebuild.
In many discussions on this board on how to build a winning team, it has usually come down to the tanker argument vs. the build on what you have argument. When we had Artest, I was in the latter camp. Now that he’s been dealt, it’s time to shift gears.
Yes, barring further trades, Brad Miller is still going to be the starter, and Mikki Moore will probably start the season as the starter and it’s likely Salmons will also be a starter. But, in my eyes, none of these guys will or frankly should be around down the road.
I’ve been harsh on Salmons, and maybe I am wrong there. We’ll see.
But some of the playing time scenarios I’ve seen thrown around here are ludricrous for a rebuilding, tanking team.
You’re either a pretender or a contender. We were barely, possibly an outside playoff contender when Artest remained here. Now that he’s gone, it’s time to move on and play the kids more and more.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 2, 2008 4:45 PM PDT
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I agree
But there is still the question of how much does the front office(looking to the future) influence the coaching staff(needs to win now to keep job).
Also, I think you have to play the best players on the team and give full effort to win every game or else you risk creating the dreaded losing attitude.
So, if we want to get more PT for the youngsters I think that’s on Geoff. He need to trade Moore, Salmons and eventually Miller.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
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Season minutes, v1.0
Once Brad serves his suspension, my perception of minute allocation for the first two months of the season:
C & PF (96 total minutes): Miller = 30, Moore = 26, Hawes = 20, Thompson = 12, Williams = 8, K9(woof!) and Abdur-Rahim = inactive.
Swing (96 total minutes): Martin = 36, Salmons = 28, Garcia = 26, Douby = 6, Greene = inactive.
PG (48 total minutes): Udrih = 32, Jackson = 14, Garcia = 2, Brown = DNP-CD.
This does not take injuries or “garbage time” into account.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 2, 2008 12:03 PM PDT
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Pretty good argument for
trading Salmons(Greene = inactive).
With all the trouble we had getting Reggie to play the youngins last year, I don’t see why we’d expect anything different this year. And what team do you ever see play 12 or even 11 every night(it’s more like 9-10). Douby might see 6, but it’ll be 6 mins avg. in 12 of the first 20 games with 8 DNP-CDs. Same with Williams, though I still think Williams gets minutes before JT until JT proves he’s better(should take at least 2 months).
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 3:51 PM PDT
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It took 4 minutes for JT to prove he was a better player than Shelden Williams.
Maybe Shelden Williams proved he can play limited minutes (5-8) as a stop gap but JT is going to be a player on this team- this year. I also believe that Douby is now expendable with the addition of B-Jax. Jackson is such a heart and soul player that can really rally a young bench group. Barring a trade I see Jackson, Garcia, JT, Hawes being in the 9 man rotation with Greene, Douby and Williams being sprinkled in junk time. I think the KIngs probably need to clear out one more veteran at this point and really let the boys play.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Aug 2, 2008 6:23 PM PDT
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Really?
Stats from the Summer League:
Sheldon: 29 mins. 14.3 pts. 58% fg% 8.8 rbs 0.8 blk
Jason: 29 mins. 16.2 pts. 49% fg% 8.6 rbs 0.6 blk
Not saying that JT won’t be or that he already isn’t a better player than Sheldon. I’m just saying he hasn’t proven it yet. And until he does, you have to figure those minutes go to the more experienced player.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 6:51 PM PDT
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Summer league?
Are you talking about summer league? Come on, summer league is worse than pre-season football.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Aug 2, 2008 9:07 PM PDT
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WTF?
So you’re declaring JT ahead of Sheldon on the depth chart based on his play at Rider? I really don’t understand how you can make statements like
It took 4 minutes for JT to prove he was a better player than Shelden Williams.
and then argue that the only time they’ve both played in a similar situation is meaningless.
I stand by my statement that until JT shows that he is better than Sheldon, Sheldon is ahead of JT on the depth chart.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 9:31 PM PDT
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Ok, I don't want to keep arguing but...
in my opinion, Shelden Williams is a huge bust. He has no back to the basket game, his foot work is atrocious and he has very limited athleticism. As a college player he was dominant but as a pro he has been a disappointment. JT proved- whether statistically or not that he has more range, better ball handling skills, more athleticism and that he is willing to take and make the big shot. So I ask you, do you ever see Shelden Williams as a starting PF in the NBA and then ask yourself the same question about JT. Then take into account that Shelden Williams is due 4.3 mill next year on an option that the Kings will not pick up. So why would Williams get minutes when Thompson is the future and Williams is not. Also, Shelden Williams was part of a cap clearing maneuver, Petrie didn’t draft him and Theus showed little to no faith in him on the court.
All this being said, I hope that Williams wakes up out of his NBA slumber and becomes a dominant rebounder and shot blocker off the bench, because JT is going to have to sit sometime. But until he joins Pete Newell in Hawaii for some one on one training I fear that he will always be known as Mr. Candice Parker.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on
Aug 3, 2008 11:09 AM PDT
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Don't really see where there is any
disagreement. Other than you’ve already decided that JT is the better player and I am not willing to put JT higher on the depth chart until he’s shown that he is the better player. It may happen in training camp, it may happen a week into the season, but I think it will happen. I don’t know that it has happened yet.
Keep in mind, I wasn’t talking about what I’d do if I were the coach. We were talking about predicted minutes to start the season.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 3, 2008 11:23 AM PDT
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What "Big" Shot has JT Taken ... or Made?
Dude, it’s freaking summer league. Wait til the guy plays some real games before talking about “big” shots. He does look like a nice prospect, but it’s hard not to look decent against a bunch of scrubs.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 4, 2008 12:55 AM PDT
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Greene "Inactive?" plus PT for the kids
Why will he be “inactive?”
Re: the minutes, if they go that route and it continues, trading Artest will have been more or less pointless outside of getting rid of the distractions and uncertainty (before you get too snarky, I’m not trying to minimize those, either).
If you want this team to grow, give more minutes to the players who might actually be here when we get good again. That doesn’t mean give Miller etc. DNPs, but let’s get real: players like Douby, Williams, Greene and Brown are going to need more minutes or at least some semblance of playing time.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 2, 2008 12:25 PM PDT
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I agree with your thought process
But Reggie Theus probably does not. He gets paid to win each game, and he’s going to put the guys out there that give him the best chance. Hawes barely got 13 minutes a game last year, and the Kings were thin up front. In fact, most of his minutes came after the Kings were mathematically out of the playoffs and Miller went on the shelf. I don’t see where Reggie is going to change his philosophy for JT or Greene, and I don’t see Greene coming in and beating Salmons or Garcia out of minutes this year.
Furthermore, if growth is what we are really looking for, Greene may be better served in Reno than Sac, at least for the first two months, which was all I was covering in v1.0.
My prediction of early season minute dispersal is not my wish, but in fact what I think will happen. I would just as soon write the playoffs off right now and watch the kids log big minutes this year. But they will have to claw their way up the depth chart (which is a good thing), and I don’t think the vets are going to just hand the minutes over without a fight.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 2, 2008 2:34 PM PDT
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I posted above
before reading this one. (Sure wish people would reply)
I don’t think your arguments in this post match your playing time at all. Why are Miller, Moore and the starting SF playing less minutes than last year? Why are we playing 11 players?
I think it will look like this:
C & PF (96 total minutes): Miller = 33, Moore = 30, Hawes = 15, Thompson = 6, Williams = 12, K9(woof!) and Abdur-Rahim = inactive.
Swing (96 total minutes): Martin = 36, Salmons = 33, Garcia = 27, Douby = DNP-CD, Greene = inactive.
PG (48 total minutes): Udrih = 33, Jackson = 15, Brown = DNP-CD.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 4:00 PM PDT
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Responding to Kfan
So you’re within 3-5 minutes of everyone I listed except JT (6 minute difference), but you don’t agree with me? Or were you responding to CC?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 2, 2008 5:33 PM PDT
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And Douby
It’s not that I don’t agree with you, it’s just that I think you’re giving more minutes to the younger players than Theus will early in the season. It’s not that much of a difference, but I think your numbers look more like the way we ended last season, than the way we began it. Not a biggy, but what else do we have to discuss?
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 2, 2008 6:38 PM PDT
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Global Warming?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 2, 2008 7:54 PM PDT
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MM only played about 26 last year...
eternal skeptical optimist
by lietothegirls on
Aug 6, 2008 3:32 PM PDT
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Not according to
ESPN He played 29.1 minutes.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 6, 2008 3:43 PM PDT
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Moore than I thought
but fewer as the team got healthier. He broke 30 only about 50% of the time.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3308/gamelog;_ylt=AtH6ExTSwO8p0k1nOZnKxUukvLYF
I’d hope 25 is more normal this year as the young guys get minutes. Thompson and Greene have Got to get some freakin’ minutes…
I promote again the idea that if the kids are playing well Mikki has got to go at the deadline. For just about anything (but I LIKE the guy).
eternal skeptical optimist
by lietothegirls on
Aug 6, 2008 5:26 PM PDT
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It's possible he could get
more minutes this year. Artest took some of the PF minutes last year, in an effort to get minutes for Cisco and Salmons. If Reggie is coaching to win, it’s very possible that the starters will all get in the 35 minute range. It’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
Is this the last year of Reggie’s deal? If so he’s coaching for an extension. I don’t see him being overly concerned about 2-3 years down the road. Unless he gets an extension or instructions from GP to play the kids. Anyway, should be interesting.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Aug 6, 2008 5:42 PM PDT
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Bluetooth
was also the only guy to start all 82 games last year. That contributes nothing to this conversation, but I wanted to share the fact that I knew something.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on
Aug 6, 2008 7:10 PM PDT
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When Artest was here
It was clear Reggie was out to win games. And yes, early in the year, Reggie may still cling to the veterans. But I think it’s going to become obvious pretty early in the season that this team is headed to the lottery, and I think Reggie and Petrie will begin to function as one.
If Reggie tries to be the Reggie of last year and plays the vets too many minutes on the way to a 30-win season, he’ll be shown the door after the season. The better opportunity for him to stick around is if he can win 30 while playing the kids.
I am not trying to say the team is going to be awful. They will be competitive, but the better teams will take over at crunch time. Martin will get doubled and taken out of the game, and who will pick up the slack? Yes, Cisco and Salmons can score, so can Miller and Udrih, but they don’t match up with the better squads in the league and they will lose more than their share of close games.
I’d love to be proven wrong and for this team to actually get better without Artest. I don’t see it happening this year.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 2, 2008 4:54 PM PDT
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Added Thought
It’s also possible Petrie will take the decision out of Theus’ hands with more trades that move vets before the season starts rather than later.
by coolcatreportdotcom on
Aug 2, 2008 4:57 PM PDT
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Added thought/dream scenario
Let’s say it’s also possible (with playing time) one or both of Thompson/Greene will be fighting for rookie of the year by years end. If a vet is traded or Reggie/Petrie decide to play the youngins a little more, why can’t one of them explode as a first year player and be just as helpful winning games? I mean, they’re young but they seem like prototypical players at their positions and seem to have some confidence after summer league. Like I said though, dream scenario. But, let’s stay positive. All the talk about Thompson/Greene getting 0-12 minutes seems so sad when the future of the franchise seems to be beginning.
by busybe on
Aug 2, 2008 8:00 PM PDT
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