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New Twist on an Old Idea

Awhile back TZ floated a trade idea that I liked:

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2008/7/29/581941/miller-to-the-bulls-trades

The crux of the deal is the following:

Miller for Drew Gooden, Joakim Noah, and Cedric Simmons

What I'm wondering is how many Kings fans would do the deal if we added Spencer Hawes in as well to get the Bulls to bite. Thus, the deal would become Brad Miller and Shawes for Drew Gooden, Joakim Noah, and Cedric Simmons (and cap filler as needed)

Now for obvious reasons, the Bulls would like the deal better, but I'm wondering if anyone here thinks it is a good idea.

I'm not sure I even like it, but there is a method to my madness. In essence, this deal boils down to Hawes plus expiring contracts for Noah and expiring contracts. And, I'll be honest, I like Noah better.

It's not that I don't like Spencer, but I feel like we have been down that road already (i.e., a highly skilled big, with limited athletic and defensive ability). We tried it with Vlade; we tried it with Brad, and we had some success, but when I look at the teams that ultimately win the brass ring, there is never a soft defensive presence inside. Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Big Ben, David Robinson, Dream, etc. Basically, unless you have a guy named Jordan, you need someone in the middle to play D and make it really difficult to score down low or in the lane.

Noah may or may not be that guy, but he's athletic, scrappy, and sometime in the near future I think he has a chance to be a really good defensive player at the 4 or 5. I don't think Hawes ever will be much of a defensive presence, and I am concerned about his long term durability. Also, I think we look at our own players through rose-colored glasses. Outside of Sacramento, people look at Shawes and yawn and make comparisons to Chris Mihm.

To me it makes sense to do the deal because it would make us extremely athletic and long.  A squad with Noah, Thompson, Greene, KMart, and Cisco would be fun to watch get after a team on defense and get out on the break after a turnover or missed shot. We would also have tons of cap space to pick up one or two free agents and 3 more high draft picks by the time 2010 rolls around (trading Brad and playing the kids would also help in this department).

The only reason I can see for not doing the deal (and it is a big reason) is that Brad is a nice chip for GP to have (especially if he plays well again this year), and he should be able to deal him for something decent next year. Question is would it really be better that the Noah/Hawes upgrade?

So would you guys do the deal or am I giving up too much to make it work?

 

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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ooo

That’s a toughy. I like your thinking. I’d probably be okay with this trade. Joakim is a little nutty. He and Mikki playing at the same time would amuse me. Damn, that would be an ugly frontcourt though, especially if Gooden is still sporting the ducktail. Spencer Hawes knees will always worry me for as long as he is a King. I see him being a bigger risk than Noah and his personality quirks. I wouldn’t mind a little interior defense on this team either.

by Ball in Cup on Aug 10, 2008 9:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Not buying it.

Can you see my ten foot pole? It’s way over there. I wouldn’t touch this deal with it.

Hawed represents the future. While he isn’t a lock by any means, he’s relatively no risk when you think about his contract. And while Brad “Cheech” Miller is a little old and a little overpaid, I like the knowledge and experience he brings to our current roster.

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Aug 10, 2008 10:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Hawes may represent the future...

...but it’s not like Noah couldn’t do the same. They were in the same draft class.

Agreed, Miller’s experience is nice, but it’s not getting us any closer to a championship. Why not leverage it to get a better player?

by R-Man on Aug 10, 2008 10:59 PM PDT reply actions  

And who is...

... The better player? I’m not confident in saying that Noah will be better than Hawes.

Wait....Why is everybody clapping? Everyone around me is clapping.... I guess I should be clapping too... GO LAKERS!!! I hate living in So Cal

by 27freethrows on Aug 11, 2008 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Noah may be better right now, but not by much. And Noah is 23 while Spencer just turned 20. I think Hawes may have more upside, and I don’t agree with the Vlade/Miller comparisons. Hawes is much more athletic than either of those guys.

Now if the Bulls added Thomas, or we switched Douby for Hawes, might have to reconsider. But the trade as stated is not worth it imo.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Aug 11, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hawes may be more athletic than Vlade/Miller...

but I can’t think of anyone else in the league who isn’t. Hawes smokes less too, but I think we all know that he’s nowhere near their level of talent/ability at this point.

If he develops to the point that he can play at their level (borderline all-star), the Kings will be in very good shape.

Noah? No thanks. He looked great for Florida, especially teamed with Horford against a UCLA team that had no inside presence, but I don’t see him ever developing as an offensive threat. So, is he good enough defensively (or will he ever be) to make up for his lack of offense (gotta love that knuckleball jumpshot) and his poor attitude? I doubt it.

by cabz on Aug 11, 2008 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hawes isn't nearly as strong as Vlade was

Making Post Defense one thing Vlade was underrated at. (That is if you looked past that his flopping was entirely pointless and rarely got him anything let alone a call.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Aug 12, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Vlade's Post Defense

Was pretty good, except for his habit of TIPPING THE BALL OUT TO ROBERT HORRY FOR A 3-POINTER AS THE CLOCK EXPIRED.

Oh shit, sorry. Not sure where that came from.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Aug 12, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

A place of anger and frustration of being a KIngs fan for nearly 25 years now?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Aug 12, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute cabz and pookey

I never said Hawes was as good as Vlade or Miller. All I said was I didn’t agree with the comparison and I think Hawes is more athletic, in response to the original poster:

but I feel like we have been down that road already (i.e., a highly skilled big, with limited athletic and defensive ability). We tried it with Vlade; we tried it with Brad

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Aug 12, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

My comments stem from the fact...

that I believe Vlade was a good enough center to win it all with, and I highly doubt Hawes will reach that level (although he is just 20, so I will try to keep an open mind). Sure, Vlade needed a lot of talent around him, but in IMO he was the heart of that team. So when you make it sound like a bad idea to go down the same road that we went down with Vlade, as a basis for your valuation of Hawes, I think it’s a poor argument. Highly-skilled big men, with limited athletic and defensive abilities can still be damn good players – I’d take an early Kings Vlade back any day of the week.

by cabz on Aug 12, 2008 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

what?

You are attributing things to me that I never said.

So when you make it sound like a bad idea to go down the same road that we went down with Vlade, as a basis for your valuation of Hawes, I think it’s a poor argument.

I never said anything even remotely like this. I said Hawes is more athletic than either Miller or Vlade. That is all. The original poster, R-Man, said the things you mention.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Aug 12, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too much for too little

Noah for Hawes might (or might not) be a slight upgrade, but not at the expense of Miller. I think Miller is a part of the future, because a top 15 center with passing skills and an expiring contract should fetch a young player or a draft pick at this time next year. We’re not gaining anything by unloading his contract this year, so you’re basically dealing your starting center (and Kevin Martin’s best screen setter/back door passer) to move up one slot in the 2007 draft. And don’t think that dealing Miller opens up playing time for the youngsters, as Gooden would suck up a lot of those up front minutes.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 11, 2008 7:53 AM PDT reply actions  

I think the Bulls are giving up too much

Noah AND Gooden? IMHO, Noah/Gooden > Hawes/Miller

Miller is old and he has a fat contract. Plus his defensive game is just horrid. Nice offense, just no defense. ...And after seeing Hawes in the Summer League, I’m beginning to think Hawes = Miller Jr. ...And I’ve never been a big fan of Miller’s game.

Maybe I’m being a bit overly critical…OK, I’ll just say Miller = Gooden. Still, I think Noah > Hawes, so, I think this trade isn’t great at all. If Chicago accepted, I’d be very surprised and would throw confetti into the air.

by CloudyEyes on Aug 12, 2008 3:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Can't see it

Trading Hawes would be a mistake. He’ll be better than Miller, why lose him too for Noah?

by rc360 on Aug 12, 2008 8:36 AM PDT reply actions  

If you don't like this trade, what center/PF WOULD you trade for?

Miller has his ups and downs, and he has a one inch vertical leap, and his defense is completely lacking, but he does have skills. But if you look around the league, who is a center who is all around better without their own flaws in the game?

Watching the Olympics, I can say for sure that if I was trading for someone, why not go for someone like Chris Bosh, (Toronto)? He is scrappy, plays defense, works hard and has a great attitude…..

Aside from Duncan/Shaq/Wallace/Howard and Garnett, who else has shown championship level heart and desire? No one yet. We are still waiting for that player to emerge, I guess.

I think back to watching San Antonio on their way to their first Duncan led championship, and the announcer saying something like “I don’t think any team with Avery Johnson has a real chance at the Championship, to win it all.”

And I remember thinking, when they won, “Well, so much for that prediction!”

The point is, any player can emerge as a winner, a leader, with the heart to go all the way, but that takes time to develop. This is why Ron Artest was a cancer that needed to go to allow the team to develop and see what they can do, without being afraid he was going to go off and fly off the handle…...

Personally, I didn’t get to see enough games last year to be able to say much about Hawes, but giving him a chance for a real look this season is definitely worth the time and money. And there isn’t much we can do to upgrade with Miller at this point either. I guess now that Kwame Brown is off the market, we will just have to wait! He he he!

Ricardo from Cherry Valley

"I hope Reggie is getting ready to earn his money this season! He's about to hit the big time without his go-to guy!"

by NewYorkKingsFan on Aug 12, 2008 8:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Chicago Big Men

If we’re getting a big man from Chicago for Brad Miller, I’d much rather have Tyrus Thomas than Joakim Noah. Hawes/JT/Thomas would be a formidable young group of big men that brought very diverse skill sets to the table. I think Thomas is a ton riskier than Noah, but has a much higher ceiling, at least in terms of athleticism. Hawes/JT/Noah is missing an elite shot-blocking athlete in the mix, which Thomas would bring.

Just don’t make me take Nocioni back also as part of the deal, Miller for Thomas and whatever contracts they send back that don’t expire later than Miller would work for me.

Regarding finding a center better than Miller in the short run, that’s not happening. Miller is a great fit for our system, the issue is, by the time we are relevant, he’s going to be too old more than likely. If Miller was young enough that you could project him to be our center for longer than his current contract, we should be finding the big men to pair with him, not get rid of him. But that’s pretty clearly not the case, so we need to find someone to complement Hawes/JT. To me, that’s a shotblocker/rebounder/athletic finisher, which I could see Thomas becoming.

by ForThree on Aug 13, 2008 5:57 AM PDT reply actions  

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