On Bobby in the Box Score

by Ziller on Aug 28, 2008 8:34 AM PDT Comment 40 comments

In the Theus thread, section214 had this gem of a comment:

You’ve made it loud and clear that you think that B-Jax is done. I respectfully disagree. Jackson averaged 19 minutes a game last year. As a #2 PG, he will probably be called upon to play about 12-14 minutes a night. He’s a gym rat and a tireless worker who will be more than capable of being a better backup PG than most teams in the NBA have. He’s better than Jason Hart, Ronnie Price, Orien Greene, Mustafa Shakur, or any of the other back up points that we’ve had over the last couple of years (unless you want to get nitpicky and count the 14 games where Udrih actually played behind Bibby).

I agree that he is not the Bobby Jackson on five years ago. But he can still be a solid contributor. I agree that he is an expiring contract, but that does not mean that he is just an expiring contract.

As for Bobby Brown, he has no NBA experience and had to play his arse off in Vegas to earn a two year minimum contract. I hope that his play is so stellar that the KIngs have no choice but to elevate him to #2 status, but I wouldn’t count on it. This kid has no more NBA cred than Ronnie Price had, and it took Price quite some time to overtake Jason Hart. One more time for empahsis – Jason Hart!

Bobby Jackson will contribute to the Kings this year. On the court in his now more limited role, in the locker room and in the community. I understand that some people are viewing his return through rose colored glasses, but isn’t it at least fair to say that he will be a solid contributor to this team as it is currently built? I look forward to watching him play, and I really look forward to the crowd’s reaction when he enters the game on opening night. What is wrong with that?

Basically, Bobby Jackson is going to be the best backup PG the Kings have had since ... Bobby Jackson!

PERs for backup-ish PGs last season: Anthony Johnson, 8.9; Quincy Douby, 9.7; Orien Greene, -3.3.

PER for Jackson last season: 13.5. (It's actually better than Beno Udrih's 2007-08 PER, for what it's worth.)

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Bobby’s #’s last year per 48:
19.3 Pts, 4.8 Asst, 6.3 Reb, 2.1 TO, .403 FG, .358 3P

Bobby’s career #’s per 48:
21.4 Pts, 5.6 Asst, 6.7 Reb, 3.0 TO, .419 FG, .359 3P

Was there some decline last year? Sure, but he didn’t fall off a cliff. As TZ notes, his PER still exceeds that of any potential backup on this roster.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Aug 28, 2008 9:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's really sad

When the fans know the players and what they can do better than the coach.

Reggie needs to remember that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Aug 28, 2008 10:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

-Abe Lincoln

and fool is a kind word to describe reggie.

"everything was beautiful and nothing hurt"

by richmond02 on Aug 28, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I always try

To err on the side of kindness.

Thanks for the attributation of the quote which I forgot to post.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Aug 28, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot to post the quote?

I’m probably wrong, but how can I pass up the chance to correct LPA’s grammar? ;p

Good quote btw.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Aug 28, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Abe Lincoln?

Not exactly.

Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.

"I think it’s going to be very beautiful game next year."
-Nicolas Batum

by rockingharder on Aug 30, 2008 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love him but...

Bobby Jackson might be better than Douby and Brown but I don’t really care because we are in a rebuilding mode. I don’t want him to cut any minutes for the youngsters even if he’s better.

by ZenBaller on Aug 28, 2008 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I want

The kids to have to earn their minutes by being better on the floor and working harder in practice.

They won’t learn anything by being thrown into games without that. Except how it feels to lose. Repeatedly.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Aug 28, 2008 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Bobby's role is more important in November and December

That might allow a team to want to trade for him come the trade deadline so the Kings can go about playing Brown and Douby.

I also think Bobby’s contract because it’s so moveable could provide a way to move K9 out of town too provided the relief for the Kings is tangible.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Aug 30, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don’t play youngsters just because they are youngsters! You play them because they have NBA-ready talent that playing time is likely to develop. Douby has yet to prove he can do anything but chuck well in a summer league game. Maybe this year, he’ll learn how to dribble with his head up. Who knows? However, no coach – in any league – plays guys just because they are young. Players earn their minutes whether young or old.

The whole “youth movement” is getting a bit exaggerated anyway. Lobbying for playing time for a player of Douby’s caliber ain’t quite the same as lobbying for Hawes or Thomposon – players with legitimate chances to have a real impact now and in the future.

by Kusian on Aug 28, 2008 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Maybe this year, he’ll learn how to dribble with his head up."

This statement struck a nerve with me, because it reminded me of two things regarding Theus’ Kings playing career.

1) My Grandfather said about Theus, “He’s just good enough to get you beat.” (as I remember it anyway, I was 15), which was such an apt way to describe him, he was a good basketball player….you just knew he’d find a way to lose though.

2) Reggie was completely incapable of dribbling with his head up. Absolutely, positively, he could not walk dribbling a basketball looking above the floor. He could stand still dribbling and look around, but once he started moving he had to look down. My memories of Theus include some made jumpshots and countless head-down drives barrelling into the lane while his teammates stood around open.

by ForThree on Aug 28, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha ha

good shit

I might also add that Jessica Alba is a championship piece, if he thinks Ron is too, more power to him. ;p -Kfan in Korea

by kangsfan on Aug 28, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quality minutes

Sure you play youngsters just because they are youngsters. You can never tell if someone is NBA ready unless you give him quality time on the floor for consecutive games. Everybody is talking (including myself) about how disappointing Douby is. The kid hasn’t played more than 15-20 minutes in consecutive games. He averaged 18 and 20 mins in the final matches of the last couple of seasons and but that’s not a criterion. He only plays in garbage time when the game is not “basketball” anymore. Dozens of good players have been lost because of this.

I’m not talking of giving Douby 30 minutes of course, but I’m sure he can get a 3-4 game stretch with 20+ mins every now and then. And Douby is just an example. This is much more important for Hawes, Thompson and Greene. You can’t have Moore playing 25-30 minutes. The guy is the worst starting PF in the league. Last season we had no one behind him so I understand, but there will be no excuse this season.

by ZenBaller on Aug 28, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Simply not true.

Coaches and GMs should not need to see players log 20+ minutes for a stretch of games to identify their worth, I don’t buy that argument at all. Douby simply does not look like a guy who has either a true position, or so much talent that you’ve got to get him on the floor wherever you can. He’s horrible at point guard, and as a shooting guard he’s horribly undersized – those aren’t things you need to put him on the floor for a ton of minutes to figure out. As far as the other players are concerned, I think we will see quite a bit of them as the season progresses, but they need to earn their playing time – not have it given to them. If Douby earns playing time with hard work, and shows he can play as an attacking combo guard off the bench, great, but I have faith that Petrie/Theus (more the former than the latter, admittedly) have enough basketball knowledge to know whether or not the guy can contribute, and in what role, based on his play up until now, his play in practice, and his play during the pre-season.

by cabz on Aug 29, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

wait

you say that you:

have faith that Petrie/Theus (more the former than the latter, admittedly) have enough basketball knowledge to know whether or not the guy can contribute, and in what role, based on his play up until now, his play in practice, and his play during the pre-season.

yet you don’t see Petrie’s drafting him in the first round, Reggie’s recent statement on developing the young guys, and his role in the summer league (a sort of preseason) as indications that Petrie and Theus think he can contribute?

Of course every player in the NBA should earn his minutes, but (this is a general comment, not a specific response to you, cabz) don’t call for minutes for the rookies and then say Douby shouldn’t get more than garbage time at either the 1 or 2.

IMO Beno should get 30 of the PG minutes, Martin 36 of the SG minutes, and BJax and Douby should 30 minutes of guard time evenly. Bobby should get more time at PG and Douby more at SG, with both playing quality minutes in extended spurts. If Douby continues to struggle, then he’s gone and little harm has been done (beyond wasting the pick). But obviously it makes no sense to let him go without truly knowing his full potential.

by furious.d on Aug 29, 2008 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

^that should say "BJax and Douby should split the extra 30 minutes of guard time evenly"

by furious.d on Aug 29, 2008 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Garcia

will get a chunk of those minutes, too.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 30, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

true

but shouldn’t the Artest trade open more minutes for Garcia at SF? Maybe he and Salmons should each get 24 of those minutes until one wins the job outright and the other becomes an attractive trade piece. I’d like to see Garcia as an emergency PG and a third SG.

by furious.d on Aug 31, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Salmons and Garcia

combined for 58 minutes last year, with Artest. I don’t see those guys taking a step backwards to give B-Jax, Douby or Brown more burn. And that doesn’t take Donte’ Greene into consideration.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 31, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I imagine

that a major part of the reason that Salmons and Garcia combined for 58 MPG last year is that Artest and Martin combined for 46 games missed, while Salmons and Garcia missed a total of 4 games. If two of the starting PG, SG, and SF miss that much time this season, I’m sure we’ll see more Jackson, Douby, and Greene than any of us would prefer.

by furious.d on Sep 1, 2008 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Artest

is slated to miss 82 games this year…

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Sep 1, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Douby

Doesn’t belong at the PG position. Period. Ever.

Two guard, maybe a few minutes. If he can show that he can do something other than spot up beyond the arc and sporadically hit the three against anybody but summer league fodder.

He hasn’t shown anything in the NBA yet. He’s on my list of highly expendable players.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Aug 30, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would be very nervous

if I were on your list.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Aug 30, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You ARE on my list

Just not that one.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Sep 1, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

I simply don’t think he’s gotten enough of a chance yet, considering the ability he has shown on both ends against quality (if not NBA) competition.

by furious.d on Aug 31, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see it

Every game he’s ever played in as a King he’s been streaky at best, and has looked lost out there most of the time. It’s been two years, and two coaches who haven’t seen enough in him to give him any major minutes except during the start of the season last year in the failed Douby-at-the-point experiment.

Decent defender, but too small to guard pretty much any two guard in the league. I just don’t see any reason to keep him, particularly if he’s destined to sit on the bench all season. We could get some kind of value for him, and let him go to a system where he’s a better fit, more of a run-and-gun system where he can hone his three-point shooting and spread the defense.

Let's go home.-Kevin Martin

by LeaguePassAddict on Sep 1, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If they think he can contribute, then great...

but he has had time on the floor, and IMO, has shown no signs that he can play a meaningful role on this team. Given that this will be Douby’s third season, the fact that he was a 1st round pick shouldn’t be a criteria for playing time. A poor man’s Ben Gordon doesn’t excite me too much.

by cabz on Aug 30, 2008 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why BJax Should Play

While I am all for playing the kids, there’s something to having a veteran presence on the floor, especially at the point guard position. I know Bobby is hardly a pure point (I remember well the penchant for 1 on 5), but look what a veteran presence like Andre Miller did for the kids on the 76ers. It’s important for the development of guys like Cisco, Shawes and JT, et al, to have a guy who knows how to set up the offense, doesn’t get frustrated when things don’t go well, and has the ability to tell a guy to D up (or anything else) while on the floor. Leading in the locker room is great, but floor leadership helps with development too.

Beware certitude.

by Reges on Aug 29, 2008 6:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Bobby Jackson

is a leader and should get plenty of minutes. Am I alone in thinking he is better and way more proven then Beno? I like Beno, but I think BJax should get his minutes. I understand preparing for the future, but Bobby Jackson is very talented and brings great energy when he enters the game. Of course we were usually in the ballgames in the past, this year….we’ll see.

by gtrman1973 on Aug 29, 2008 10:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Alone

I think you probably are pretty close to alone if you think, today, Bobby Jackson is a better player than Beno.

I love Bobby Jackson, one of my favorite Kings, no question, but even he acknowledges he’s nearing the end of his career. Beno has tons to prove, and I’m not sold on him as the PG on a really good team, but he has a chance, and he is the best point guard on the roster at the moment unless Brown surprises everyone.

by ForThree on Aug 29, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beno may be the best PG on the roster...

but he isn’t exactly head and shoulders above Bobby. He has a chance to be, if he continues to progress as a player, and he’s more up for the challenge of logging big minutes (based on his youth), but he’s still got a way to go (or Bobby has a ways to fall) until there is no question he’s a better PG.

by cabz on Aug 29, 2008 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The difference is

That Bobby is 1-3 years from retirement and Beno just turned 26. As much as I like Bobby, he’s at the end of his career, while Beno is really at the beginning in terms of actual playing time.

by Carl on Aug 29, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Meant that as a response to 'ForThree'...

I don’t question that Beno will be the starter, or play most of the minutes if healthy, but the argument he implied (that Beno is CLEARLY a better player than Bobby) just isn’t true IMO. Beno still has a lot to prove, and given that a lot of people here weren’t sure they wanted Beno signed to more than 2-3 years, and that Bobby was statistically better last year (based on PER), I don’t agree with the implications. Talent-wise, I don’t think there is a big gap between Beno and an aging Bobby.

by cabz on Aug 29, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair point

I was one of the people opposed to giving Beno an extended deal. While it may be a fair point that Beno isn’t better today, he will be better in another year if for age if no other reason. Beno’s scoring will go up, as Artest and Bibby aren’t there to take all the shots. Aside from Kevin Martin, the Kings offense is a real question mark this season, which I think will benefit Beno. I agree with your central point – that Beno is not clearly better than Bobby right now. But Jason Thompson is not clearly better than Mikki Moore either, though we all hope that changes quickly.

by Carl on Aug 29, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you're right about Beno.

I think you are (or will be), but I will certainly be disappointed if Beno doesn’t prove to be the better player by the end of this year or the beginning of next. If it doesn’t happen, it likely means he’s either too injury prone or not showing any growth as a player – either of which will make that 5-year deal look like less of a bargain.

Regarding Thompson – hopefully he will get some minutes early on, with Brad’s suspension, and show he is at least good enough to not be a big drop-off from the other guys in the running for his minutes. If the level of play is even close to a push, and they’re bringing it in practice, you have to get the younger players out there.

by cabz on Aug 29, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally agree

If the level of play is even close to a push, and they’re bringing it in practice, you have to get the younger players out there.

Let’s hope Reggie agrees with this as well.

by Carl on Aug 29, 2008 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did anyone see BJax play last year?

I know he played us twice. The first he was ok, but the second just so so. If you look at his stats in the Utah series it doesn’t look like he was playing well, and maybe not a true PG.

He jackup up 70 shots in 6 games and only made 20. That’s 30 percent. From the 3 pt line he was only 5 for 24 or a little better than 20 percent. And, he only aver. 1.5 assist which is slightly worst than the 1.9 aver over 72 game and 19 minutes a game.

Now, I didn’t see too many HOU or NOH games so I don’t know what kind of role he was asked to play. But, I thought we wanted a PG that drove & dished or pick & rolled. If we wanted a PG that jacked up that many shots in only 19 mpg, we should have kept Bibby.

Maybe he can play a pure PG role but wasn’t ask to do it last year. I don’t know. But, shouldn’t our backup PG play a similar role as our starter?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Aug 30, 2008 2:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Using that logic

You can eliminate Douby and maybe Bobby Brown as backups as well.

All I can say about the playoff stats is “small sample size”. I think you have to look at his body of work over the year – his numbers were down slightly, but it appears Bobby is still plenty good to play 10 to 15 minutes per night.

And don’t forget, Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson had very different games yet played in the same offense. If I recall correctly, those Kings teams were pretty damn good.

Kevin Pritchard has Chuck Norris tied up in the trunk of his car.

by otis29 on Aug 30, 2008 5:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would eliminate Douby also

I haven’t seen enough of Brown to be sure, but I think he plays the PG pretty good.

You are also correct that the sample was too small. That why I said that I didn’t know if he could still play the Point in my last comment.

What I do know is, if that were the Kings playing in the Utah series, and anyone, I mean anyone jackup up that many shot in 19 minutes with that poor a shooting percentage for 6 games, eveyone on this blog would be calling for their blood.

As far as his numbers being down in the playoffs, he averaged 19mpg , 1.9 apg and about 9 points per game. So, yes they were slightly down. But until I know what Bobby Brown can do, BJax’s should have to earn his minutes and not assume he’ll play 10 to 15.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Aug 30, 2008 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

To recap myself

I think the love of Bobby at this point is being overblown, but I understand it. So I’m going to reiterate I’m going to have to see it to believe it at this point. Here’s what I said in the other Bobby thread (right below this post).

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Aug 30, 2008 3:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs