Qualifying Offers, Contract Extentions,Offer Sheets What does it all mean?
I'm reading Zillers comment on Cisco not getting a contract extention from the Kings, but I'm not sure what the implications are. So, I was hoping some of the more knowledgeable out there could enlighten me.
Having read through the Salary Cap FAQ pertaining to rookie contracts I've concluded that.
1. The Kings had until June 30th of 08 to make Garcia the Optional $2.9M qualifying offer at the end of his rookie contract, and that they did.
2. The Kings have until Oct. 31, 2008 to extend Garcia's rookie contract.
3.Garcia has until March 1, 2009 to accept the Qualifying Offer. If he fails to accept the offer he becomes a RFA without a contract for next year.
4. The Kings have until March 1, 2009 to recind the Qualifying Offer.
5. The Kings can trade Garcia up until this seasons trade deadline (19th Thursday after season starts). Any team trading for Garcia will have to negotiate a contract for next year.
6. The Kings can renegotiate a new contract with Garcia up until the end of the season.
Am I correct so far?
So, let's assume Cisco doesn't accept the Qualifying Offer, and the King's don't recind it nor do they extend his contract. The FA signing period comes next July 1st, and Cisco doesn't receive offers from any other teams.
Do the Kings still have to make an offer as high as the original Qualifying Offer? And, allow Cisco to play one more year before becoming an UFA.
Can they make a multi year offer starting at less than the Qualifying Offer?
Can Cisco refuse to sign any offer from another team, to keep the KIngs from being able to match it?
How many years do the Kings retain the rights to Garcia if they can't come to an agreement and he doesn't play next year?
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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Ummmmm
You would be right I suppose on Garcia except for the fact that his contract won’t come up until July 2009. That’s assuming he doesn’t sign an extension in the next month in which any RFA becomes a moot point.
Rookie contracts are scaled for 4 years and Garcia’s is no exception. The KIngs (wisely) chose to pick up the 2 (team) option years they had on Franky G. The next step is to negotiate the post-rookie contract, as I write this, have not done so.
The implications of not negotiating a contract extension (that’s what they would be negotiating with Franky as long as he is under contract with the team) with Garcia is that they risk a prolonged and nasty difficult negotiating process that Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Andre Igoudala and Emeka Okafor all have had during this summer. That’s the reason to sign an extension if for no other reason. (The players that did get them from the 2004 class off the top of my head were Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin and of course, Dwight Howard. Anyone else who is missing please mention it in current comments. Thanks.)
The one caveat I would add to anyone bothering to read this is simple. Garcia isn’t a near all-star like all of those players minus Gordon is, and Garcia hasn’t played on multiple playoff teams like Gordon has and having been a main offensive threat the team does have. So in essence Garcia’s situation is a bit simpler in that he’s a role player and the other players were valuable skilled players, or simply near all-stars/all-stars.
Now to the bad. Don’t bring the Qualifying Offer up. It’s bad juju. As Matt would say it’s a losing offer for both sides to agree on the QO. I especially think it would sour negotiations for Garcia moving forward and would degrade his relationship with Geoff Petrie in particular. That’s one option the Kings should do everything to avoid.
Don’t mention next summer in relation to Cisco’s FA. It doesn’t really matter yet. There is a whole season to be played out, and hell, at this point Cisco can still get an extension. It’s really like jumping 5 steps ahead before you’ve drawn out the hopscotch board (or whatever you call it).
On to your questions: As far as I’ve seen the Kings can’t negotiate a new contract with Garcia, after Oct 31st, until he becomes a RFA in July 09. That’s being based off many readings off Larry Coon’s FAQ.
The Kings don’t have to make an offer as high as a QO theoretically, but that isn’t going to be a very likely probability. After all Cisco’s QO (because of where he was drafted it fits into the salary slot of that particular pick he was drafted at) is probably less than any multi-year deal he will be able to command on the open market. Since most people around here have been talking about Mid Level money similar to what Beno Udrih signed for, and that was starting at 5.825 million this summer, and probably will go up next summer, that’s probably the money range that Cisco has to be aiming for long term given his particular status.
The Kings can hold Cisco’s rights forever (the right to make a QO) if he does a Josh Childress and leaves for Spain. Or Greece. Or the DR. Or whatever.
I hope this answers your questions.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on Sep 13, 2008 10:25 PM PDT 1 recs
Ummmmm not really
It looks to me that the Kings execised they 4th year option, by making the unspoken QO. OK that’s straight. Now the Gman (cute ha) has until March 1 to except it, or the Kings have until March 1 to recind it. (I got that from the salary cap FAQ)
Now, the Kings & Cisco can renegotiate his contract up until Some Date. You said it’s Oct 31. I thought it might be the trade deadline, because they can’t trade him then because he has an Ending Contract ( also from the FAQ)
Now the stuff that’s clear. If both side do nothing, Cisco becomes a RFA. On July 1st he can 1. Negotiate with other teams 2. Renegotiate with the Kings or 3. Accept the QO, play out the year and become a UFA..
What’s unclear is: If one or more teams other than the Kings make a contract offer, does Cisco have to accept one of them and give the Kings the right of first refusal?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 1:49 AM PDT
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You got the language wrong
But yeah they picked up the 4th year team option. They haven’t even offered a Qualifying Offer yet.
What stuff is clear? I already knew it. So do more than a few people around here actually.
What timeframe are you talking about making a contract offer to Cisco? IN July of 09 yes you can conceivably do that provided he doesn’t have an extension by then. But the KIngs have the right to match any offer sheet he does sign with another team.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 14, 2008 8:26 PM PDT
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Clear stuff
I meant that it was clear to me or “Do I understand this correctly?”.
I finally realized why I don’t like Time Travel movies. It’s because I don’t know what year it is.
So, the Kings picked up the 4th year (2nd optional) of Garcias rookie contract. What was the deadline for doing this? Was it Oct.31st of 2007?
Now, the Kings have until Oct 31st of 2008 to negotiate an extension for years 5 & 6 minimum.
It they don’t renegotiate an extention by Oct 31,2008, then he becomes a RFA without a contract for 09/10. Next the Kings have until June 30, 2009 to make a Qualifying Offer & on July 1,2009 Cisco & his agent can start looking for other offers.
So, by not negotiating this year, the only negative from the Kings side is that they have opened the starting point of the negotiations to market value. Hopefully, I got it right this time.
Two last questions: If the Kings decide not to offer Garcia the QA, they can simply release their rights to him and his salary will not effect cap space. Second, the Kings only get the right of first refusal on contract offers that the player signs. So, if the player gets an offer better than the Kings are offering, he can still refuse it & force the Kings to offer more.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 15, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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Yes on all counts
Except for the last part it’s a bit more technical answer to that. By not tendering a QO what the Kings essentially do is make Garcia an un-restricted FA by doing so, and by not tendering that QO what they accomplish is the same effect that renouncing a Free Agent does.
But, and that comes with this but, in order for the Kings to get a first right of refusal to Franky, they will have to tender that QO. In order to exercise the first right of refusal the player has to be in RESTRICTED free agency. Once a player becomes an un-restricted Free Agent then he’s free to sign with anybody provided the team has cap room.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 10:56 AM PDT
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Great
What about offers from another team? The Kings only get to match another teams offer if the player says he’s willing to play for that offer. If the player wants MLE money and another team offers less, the player can refuse that offer.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 15, 2008 11:39 AM PDT
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That's only if the Kings offer the QO
If the KIngs don’t tender the Qualifying Offer than Cisco won’t be a restricted Free-Agent, and they won’t be able to match any offer he does get on the market. It’s just that simple.
As far as what you’re saying about a player negotiating it’s just that. I’m not sure what the point of that was.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 5:23 PM PDT
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If in fact the kings do make a QO
Does the offer that the Kings get to match go through the League Office, the Kings Office, or through Cisco & his agent?. Are the KIngs made aware of evey offer that Cisco receives? Thereby giving the KIngs an idea of what the current market value is at the time that they are negotiating.
And, finally, of all the offers that Garcia might receive, do they only get the right of first refusal if he accepts one of them?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 15, 2008 11:26 PM PDT
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Sigh
Let’s say for a moment that Cisco doesn’t sign an extension (which makes all of what you’re saying a moot point) and that next year he goes into restricted Free-Agency. In order for him to get to that point the KIngs have to make a Qualifying Offer, and at some point, have to offer him a contract because he is a free agent. The QO only exists to create some balance between the money a player desires and the team desires.
Now, and this is the only time under the NBA ©ollective (B)argaining (A)greement that a team can match another offer made to it’s player by another team, is when that player is in restricted Free-Agency. The only way to get a player into restricted Free Agency status is by offering him a Qualifying Offer. It’s just that simple. That’s all the technical side of this there is. These types of transactions usually are handled by the Kings Front Office, and are sent to Cisco’s agent so he’s aware of what the Kings are doing, legally he has to know anyway so this is moot I suppose not to mention dumb if you’re running any kind of honest business which the Kings purport to be, and has to be approved the NBA front office anyway. This is done on every contract for every player the Kings sign a player to. That has nothing to do with Cisco or his status.
Yes, the only time the KIngs can match an offer is when another offer is made to Cisco by another team.
As far as the point are the KIngs “made” aware of every offer Cisco gets? No, because no team negotiates with another teams player and keeps them in the loop. The Kings find out the way alot of people do on the money amount of a contract another team signs a player to. But, and this is a rather but, it’s a bit more complicated than that. Most teams have a pretty good idea of what another team is offering they’re player, and most of the time, it’s an internal argument as to whether it’s worth it financially and over the course of the time to retain a player at the cost it will cost any particular team to do so.
Sorry for the vague explanation on the last part. That’s mostly conjecture which was my point. Parts of your questions have legal and are part of a fairly simple process. But giving the Kings an idea of what other teams market of Cisco is? No team will ever do that because that’s a loss of competitive advantage in the marketplace if that makes any sense.
Now, onto “knowing” what the other teams offer that’s another matter entirely.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 11:51 PM PDT
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Thanks, you've answered all my questions so far.
Once the QO is made on around June 30th, the team has until March 1st to recind the offer. So, if a role player wants more than his team is willing to offer, they can release him & walk away, correct?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 16, 2008 1:20 AM PDT
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Ummm
Although that won’t happen in Cisco’s case, or in any case really. Most teams sour on players before the 4th year and just don’t even bother to get to that point. (Good examples of this are Shelden and QD for instance.) So you’re walking down a road that isn’t really useful in my view. Even if you’re trying to understand the process, most of your questions aren’t really part of how the process really works when it goes down.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 16, 2008 8:12 AM PDT
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Do me a favor
If I was talking to you in a real conversation some of what you’re saying (for instance: like saying I’m trying to clear this up for me) would be understood. But think of this as communicating with a deaf person who can see you but can’t enunciate clearly. What you write is what I have to go on, and if it’s confusing, and it can be sometimes, it’s probably going to create some confusion and some supplemental snide remarks to go along with it. Just pointing this out so you realize where I’m coming from.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 11:03 AM PDT
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No harm no foul
When I’m at the keyboard, everything I type seems so clear to me. And, since the monitor justs sits there, and doesn’t make funny faces at me like it’s thinking “What the He__ are you talking about? I think I’m right on. Unfortunately, sometimes when I read my stuff later, I wonder to myself "What was I thinking”.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 15, 2008 11:29 AM PDT
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That happens to everybody
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 5:23 PM PDT
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Nice read
I agree with you that it’s in the best interest for everyone to see where Garcia takes off in the 09 season. I have a feeling that Garcia would be butting heads with Greene or Salmons down the road for playing time, so the Kings are going to need to cut one of them, eventually. Also, the Kings would be able to gauge Greene’s progress in his first year to see if he’s worth it to keep in the long run as well, which would play into the decision of negotiating with Garcia.
Next season’s going to be very interesting.
by CloudyEyes on Sep 13, 2008 11:15 PM PDT 0 recs
There lies the rub.
The Kings already exercised the 4th year option of his rookie contract. If they don’t rengotiate his contract by Oct 31st (according to pookeyguru) he becomes a RFA and they can’t talk contracts again until July 1st. He stays a RFA unless the Kings recind his QO by March 1st, at which time he becomes an UFA.
As a RFA he has 4 options; 1 Sign for the QO. 2.Sign a multi year offer sheet from another team and play for that team, 3. Sign a multi year offer sheet from another team , have the Kings exercise Right of First Refusal, and he plays for the Kings. 4. Renegotiate his contract with the Kings.
What I think happen ( that’s the reason for this post) is :
With option 1: We get him cheap for 1 year with no compensation if he leaves and we can’t trade him.
option 2. We lose him & his salary with no compensation
option 3. We get him for multiple years at a price we’re willing to pay but we can’t trade him.
option 4. We get him for a mutually agreeable price. But I’m not sure of his tradeability. Can a team extend a rookie contract and trade him in the same year?
So, our posibilities look like lose him completely, or stuck with him through the 09/10 year or longer
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 2:42 AM PDT
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I would presume
that if the Kings choose option 3 or 4 they wouldn’t be
stuck with him through the 09/10 year or longer
as they would have chosen to keep him and presumably be glad that he is on the team.
If they choose 1 or 2 then presumably they don’t want him long term and they either trade him or let him walk.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Sep 14, 2008 4:35 AM PDT
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Stuck a bad choice of words
What I’ve been trying to find out & which no one has clarified so far is, “Can a team trade a player after they sign him to a Rookie contract extension”?
Here’s where I’m going. Say the Kings decide sometime between the start of training camp and the trade deadline that Douby, Williams, & Garcia have no long term future with the Kings. And, that the Kings need to clear Salary Cap space to participate in the 09/10 FA market. Once they exercise the option clauses in their respective contracts this year, can the Kings move them and not incur any expense against the Salary Cap.
This is not a Talent question. This is a GM type question involving Rookie Contracts.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 1:22 PM PDT
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You're talking about two different things
Douby and Williams have been in the league a year less than Garcia. So two different situations:
1. Douby/Williams – They can be traded this year whether we pick up their 09-10 options prior to Oct. 31st or not. If we pick up the option it would be the same as what Atlanta did with Williams last season(pick up the option then trade him). If we don’t pick up the option, they’d be an expiring contract.
2. Garcia – This season is his final option year. If we sign him to an extension he will be virtually untradable for the next two seasons. He’d be poison pill this season and base year compensation next season. Same situation as Martin last season and this one. If we don’t sign him to an extension, I believe we can trade him this year. If we don’t trade him then we can go into the qualifying offer, sign an extension or match scenario described elsewhere.
That’s how I understand it.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Sep 14, 2008 1:51 PM PDT
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Thanks
The difference between the 3rd and 4th year options had me confused.
In the Match Scenario, does that situation have a multi year no trade restriction or is it only the first year?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 3:16 PM PDT
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Only one year
If we don’t sign Cisco to an extension before Oct. 31st, tender the qualifying offer next summer and then either sign him ourselves in July or match another team’s offer, he will be a Base Year Compensation player (and very hard to trade) in 09-10. You’d be able to trade him this year because he wouldn’t have the Poison Pill of a new contract sitting ready to kick in next year.
If he signs the extension before this season the Poison Pill is there making it very difficult to trade him this year and BYC in 09-10.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Sep 14, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
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One thing
My answers above were off the top of my head. I have researched this info in the past, but didn’t review for these posts, so I’m not 100% sure that they are 100% correct. I’m sure Pookey or one of the other knowledgeable posters will correct any mistakes. I am pretty sure that my responses are at least close to accurate.
One question that I don’t have an answer for. If we don’t exercise our options for Douby and/or Williams will they become restricted or unrestricted free agents at the end of the year?
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Sep 14, 2008 6:07 PM PDT
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Unrestricted I believe
I took some notes while reading through the Salary Cap FAQ. What I wrote down was that “A team must exercise their options by Oct.31st of the prior year or the player becomes an Unrestricted FA”.
But, the differences between a rookie and veteran contracts, got me confused.
Your answers seem to agree with my understanding after reading the FAQ.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 7:45 PM PDT
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They'll become unrestricted Free Agets
Once a player is no longer on a rookie or first term contract (like 2nd rounders/rookie Free Agents) they immediately become unrestricted free agents for the rest of their careers.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 15, 2008 10:59 AM PDT
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Yeah Kfan thats a good point on the Poison Pill
It’s a hard rule to understand, but understanding it is key. That’s the only negative on signing Cisco to an extension. You’re saying you won’t trade him for 2 years.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on
Sep 14, 2008 8:28 PM PDT
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Things to consider
Many contributors here at StR have said many times that Cisco has the making of the perfect 6th man. That passionate guy who comes of the bench to energize the team. One thing I would love to know is what HE thinks about this role? I agree witht the assesment that he is the perfect 6th man and also agree that out of those three CloudyEyes mentioned, one needs to go. My guess is the Kings may see Greene as the future starter with Cisco coming off the bench, meaning Salmons is the odd man out. I think it could work depending, of course, of the development of Greene and being able to trade Salmons. The only thing a bit weird about this situation (if it were to happen) is the fact that it doesn’t seem that Francisco will ever be the starting 3 for the Kings. Does this bother him? I mean, a young guy jumps from being 3rd in the depth chart, to first, while Cisco stays coming off the bench. I think out of the different scenarios, a developed Greene starting and Cisco behind him, sounds like the best one for the team. I don’t know if he has talked about this before somewhere, but I think the way Francisco sees himself fitting in the team (whether starting or 6th man) should be taken into consideration when discussing if he’s gonna get a deal (and take it) or not
by eduardo_m7 on Sep 14, 2008 12:31 AM PDT 2 recs
Personally I think
he’d make a fine 5th starter or 6th man, but you raise a very good point. What does Cisco want and what does he think he deserves. I haven’t heard him discuss this either, and hadn’t really considered it. Rec’d for opening my eyes.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on
Sep 14, 2008 4:37 AM PDT
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What's best for Garcia?
I really didn’t intend to go there. Nor, was I looking at what his worth was to the Kings. (see my answer to you post above).
But, let me pose this senario. FA period comes and Cisco’s agent & Cisco believe he’s worth MLE type of money. Now, assume that because he’s a RFA, very few teams make an offer below that level because the Kings would use their Right of First Refusal to resign him. And, no team offers him what he thinks he’s worth. Maybe what’s best for him is to accept the QO. Now, he plays one year at slightly less than he would get in a multi year deal , but $3M isn’t chicken feed. And, the upside is he becomes a UFA in 10/11 the year when every team is clearing cap space to participate in the Super FA Market. Plus if he still can’t play himself next year into a higher salary range, at least he gets to pick what team he signs with, maybe even a home town team. The only down side is if no one were to offer him a deal in 10/11 and we all know that won’t happen.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on
Sep 14, 2008 1:47 PM PDT
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