How to Avoid a Draft Bust (Or How I Learned to Fear this Year's Draft)
(Enjoy this great draft analysis from nbrans. -- TZ)
NBA drafts are a heady mixture of science, art, luck, dice rolling, gut feelings, expertise, and luck. It is the place where otherwise rational people talk themselves into things like, "Yeah, Adam Morrison is slow, diabetic, and cried at a crucial moment in the NCAA tournament, but the guy can just flat out play!" and "I'm not sure if Rafael Araujo can beat a tortoise down the floor, but the guy can just flat out play!" And most importantly, it's a place where Chad Ford can ponder in his draft grades why Miami would have drafted Dwyane Wade over Maciej Lampe.
Fortunately, we have history as a guide, and history doesn't lie. As we avert our gaze from this trainwreck of a season to the happier thought of a lottery pick in June, I'm here to tell you that except for careers derailed by injuries, lottery busts fall into three categories:
Bust Category #1 (Duke Alumni Memorial): Guys who are undersized and/or unathletic, but who pundits say "can just flat out play."
Notable examples since 2000: Adam Morrison, Acie Law, JJ Redick, Shelden Williams, Ike Diogu, Sean May, Rafael Araujo, Nickoloz Tskitishvili, Jarvis Hayes, Mike Dunleavy, Marcus Fizer
Yes, a player can overcome a lack of size for their position with extraordinary athleticism and very good skills (Paul Millsap, Dwyane Wade, Nate Robinson). A player can also overcome a lack of athleticism with good size and extraordinary skills (Peja Stojakovic and shooting, Paul Pierce and midrange game, Sam Cassell and testicle dancing).
However, particularly if you are a guard or a small forward, you simply cannot overcome a lack of both athleticism and size and be a star, I don't care how skilled you are. Sorry James Harden, future NBA roleplayer.
Beware the guy that pundits love despite his lack of athleticism. These are the players about whom commentators say things like "(Negative negative negative) but the guy can just flat out play." This is the basketball equivalent of sentences that begin, "I'm not racist, but..." No matter what comes after the "but," you're absolutely a racist.
Bust Category #2 (Kwame Brown Memorial): Raw "upside" guys who don't pan out
Notable examples since 2000: Patrick O'Bryant, Saer Sene, Yaroslav Koralev, Robert Swift, Sebastian Telfair, Rodney White, Kedrick Brown, Stromile Swift, Jerome Moiso, Kwame Brown, Keyon Dooling.
This category is admittedly very difficult to parse out. How does one separate one's Joe Johnsons and Andrew Bynums from one's Kedrick Browns and Saer Senes? How does one separate his "unlimited upside potentials" from his "raw uncordinated unskilleds?"
Here are some of my basic rules of thumb.
1) Wings need to be able to shoot and dribble. You can always, always, always find athletic but unskilled 6'7" roleplayer guys who can come in off the scrap heap or the D-League and be a good defender. (No, really, Ruben Patterson's agent is standing by.) Want to draft a wing with the potential of being a star? Better make sure he can shoot and has a handle (sorry Earl Clark and Damion James).
2) Even properly sized and athletic bigs need to have good hands. This is very, very simple. Find me a successful big who doesn't have good hands. (I'll wait). Now look at the bigs on the above bust list. Notice anything?
3) Point guards and combo guards need to be very quick and have a terrific handle (mandatory) and either be able to score extremely well (Devin Harris), pass extremely well (TJ Ford), or both (Chris Paul). Can't score or pass? Your name might be Sebastian Telfair.
Bust category #3 (Michael Olowokandi Memorial): Knuckleheads and heart problems (of the motivation variety)
Notable examples since 2000: Fran Vazquez, Darko Miliciic, Mike Sweetney, Kwame Brown, Eddie Griffin
Also a tough category, because when faced with the prospect of making millions, even the most knucklesome of knuckleheads can discover their inner Rosie the Riveter. Thus, it is only the truly, epically insane and unmotivated who manage to bust because their insanity/lack of any motivation whatsoever. Note that Ron Artest has had a mainly productive career, so you actually have to be more insane than him. These heartless/insane players rarely announce themselves ahead of time, although this week I learned that Brandon Jennings is friends with noted laptop thief Marcus Williams, which raises as many red flags for me as three microfracture surgeries.
So what does this all mean for this draft halfway through a college basketball season that I am totally not obsessing over while watching every tangentially related game and in which we badly, badly need to avoid a bust?
Frankly, this draft sucks. Unlike the last few years, there is not a single prospect projected to go Top 10 this year who does not have some unsettling bust potential due to being possibly too small, possibly too unathletic, or possibly too raw. Yay.
Blake Griffin - It all comes down to height with him. Is he 6'10" (unlikely), 6'9" (maybe), 6'8" (probably) or 6'7" (hopefully not)? His bust potential increases exponentially every inch under 6'10". He's athletic, sure, and skilled, sure, and he gets his points and rebounds in bunches even if he's basically indifferent on the defensive end save for the occasional block. His game reminds me of a slightly less explosive, nonshotblocking Kenyon Martin (down to the ugly jumper that sometimes goes in) or a more skilled David Lee. Is that worth a #1 pick to you? Well, get used to it, because in this draft "slightly better than David Lee" might actually be worth a #1 pick.
Ricky Rubio - The real question with Ricky Rubio is this: if the Kings drafted him, how long would it take Ailene Voisin to write a double-entendre filled ode to his wizard-like skills? (answer: 17 minutes). The other question: is he the second coming of Jason Kidd or the second coming of Sean Livingston? Rubio is not that athletic. No, stop. It's ok to admit it. I don't care how good he is for his age. He's not that quick. Just come to terms with it and move on. Compare early Kidd videos to Rubio highlights and tell me what you see. Told you. So then the question is: do you like the idea of having the 2009 version of Jason Kidd on your roster, i.e. a good passer, yes, but a defensive liability who can't shoot? How is that working out for Dallas, and is that worth the #2 pick? (I know he's supposed to be a good defender but look: he's not exactly guarding Chris Paul over in Spain). Here's a test: go onto a message board and say "Ricky Rubio is not that athletic, I'm concerned." What will you hear? "But the guy can just flat out play." And there's your bright and shiny red flag. Maybe, maybe Rubio is enough of a basketball genius or just athletic enough to be like vintage Jason Kidd. We'll see.
Greg Monroe - The second coming of Chris Webber, or rather the second coming of Chris Webber after he blew out his knee and was never the same again. Monroe is a reasonably quick but earthbound power forward who is more comfortable taking the ball to the hoop, dropping incredible dimes, and shooting 15 footers than he is banging in the post. Sound familiar? Only, unlike even post-injury Webber he's allergic to rebounds and can be pushed around by any power forward with a hint of muscle definition. If you still want Monroe after that description, don't worry, we already have his long lost twin on our roster: his name is Spencer Hawes.
James Harden - You've heard he's like Brandon Roy, right? Well, he's not. Harden's not nearly as quick and is built like Mitch Richmond, which would be great if it were 1995, but things have changed just a tad since then, not least of which it's no longer permissible to hand check a dude to stop him from blowing by you into the lane. Harden has great all-around skills and is a very deft passer (provided he is dribbling to his left), but he's not that quick, not that tall, and I personally watched him struggle against Landry Fields to the point that Harden forearmed him in the face out of frustration. Who is Landry Fields? EXACTLY. Let's just say that when Harden is guarded by someone either bigger or more athletic than him (which would be, you know, every night in the NBA), he really really struggles.
Jrue Holiday - Oh, Jrue. Jrue, Jrue, Jrue. Where to start? Jrue has the potential to be a good defender. And that's about it for the positives. Oh, he can shoot. Sometimes. But don't believe what you've been told: he's a shaky, shaky ballhandler, and he has a very slow first step. He simply cannot create a shot for himself. Not even an embarrassing airball! He literally can't get a shot off. Jrue is very young and might get better someday, perhaps even this season. Until that time, he's all hype, no results.
Jordan Hill - What's not to like, right? 6'10", averaging 18/11, big and strong, looks like an NBA power forward... so why am I not more excited about him? Mainly because I feel like Hill is the guy who does just enough to tantalize you with his skills and potential so you end up getting excited, only in the end he doesn't quite deliver and you wind up even more disappointed than if he had shown nothing to begin with. Hill isn't a great shotblocker and he doesn't do the little things. He gets his points and rebounds because he's a big and strong college power forward, but it all adds up to less than the sum of the parts. He's not a Chris Wilcox-level athlete, and while he's reasonably coordinated around the hoop, he doesn't really have much of an offensive game. Think: Etan Thomas without the poetry.
Brandon Jennings - I haven't seen The Expat play and don't know much about him, other than that he's athletic and is friends with Marcus Williams. So basically 50% good, 50% horrifying.
Al-Farouq Aminu - As you drool over his high-flying highlight reels, repeat after me: "I will not draft an awkward small forward who can't shoot... I will not draft an awkward small forward who can't shoot..."
Stephen Curry - No player has had the "Negative negative negative, but he can just flat out play" tag applied more than Curry. He might be the next Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. More likely he's the next Steve Kerr.
Hasheem Thabeet - I know. You've probably seen him and thought, "Holy crap this guy sucks." I think that too from time to time. But here's the thing: he's 7'3" and he has hops! He can run the floor, he can jump, and most importantly, he has good hands. He catches tough passes, he gets tough rebounds, he is an extremely skilled and quick shotblocker. Yes, he has his weaknesses, mainly that he occasionally looks like they pulled him off the street just before tipoff and told him to put on a uniform, he struggles against quick players, he gets muscled around from time to time, and he has a disconcerting tendency to disappear in big games. But guys: 7'3". Hops. Hands. Shotblocking. Rebounding. Count me as a fan.
And finally, the guy I want the Kings to draft, at least until I change my mind again: Jeff Teague - Dude. Is. Athletic. Very very quick, killer crossover, easily creates separation, good ballhandler, crazy hops, has the makings of a good defender. Sure he shoots from his shoulder like he's in 6th grade but hey, it goes in. Unfortunately, he's really a 6'2" shooting guard and boasts a horrendous 1/1 assist to turnover ratio. Think of him as a more athletic Ben Gordon or possibly another Gilbert Arenas. For better and worse. But his combination of blinding quickness and solid shooting doesn't come along every day.
And sometimes, after obsessing about the draft all year round, you just have to stop overthinking it.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
15 recs |
240 comments
Comments
First
This is has been an interesting carry over from Kingsfans.com, and I’ve seen many of your opinions from there already.
I do not want Darren Collison. I want Ricky Rubio. I don’t know what you saw in Jason Kidd at Cal (never heard of him until he was there—but Kidd is well, a High School legend in California for his time @ St Josephs—-but so is Baron Davis after his time @ Crossroads), but Rubio is pretty athletic. He’s also pretty quick. Of course, Kidd came out when he was 20, and Rubio is not even 19 yet.
Trollbeeet? No thanks. What a waste of a pick, to address a simple need that can be addressed elsewhere differently. Rubio is an unique talent. Thabeet, is not. I don’t want the Kings to be the team that spends its time developing him.
No arguing from me that Curry is not a top 5 pick for the KIngs. Petrie? I hope he would take Rubio if given the chance.
What I see in Rubio? Fire, passion, quickness, good athleticism (not off the charts—but then again, neither is Payton’s or Kidd’s athleticism—they’re hall of famers right?), a decent shot when he’s wide open, and a chance to improve. His flair, charisma is something this team needs. Trollbeet? Yeah, no thanks on Duane Causwell Jr.
Al Farouq Aminu : that’s right, let’s discuss a SF when we already have an offensively gifted 19 year old named Buckets around…
I agree Jeff Teague is a sleeper pick. Ford has mentioned him; DX has him high as well. I’m not Joe Draft guy, but I don’t think watching guys live helps you figure out their peripherals any better than it does NBA teams. It just gives you an idea of where he’s at as a college/international player.
Thanks for passing the conversation along nbrans.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, pookeyguru
Did you really see a lot of athleticism from Rubio against Team USA? He looked average to me athletically. I may be way off on him, and his size may make up for a relative lack of quickness, but I think it’s going to be a problem at the next level. Again, all this passion, fire… none of that stuff matters to me if he can’t get around his defender.
Re: Thabeet: An athletic 7’3" shotblocker with hops is not unique and can be easily duplicated?
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look man
We disagree. That’s just the bottom line. I appreciate your opinion; this isn’t about whose smarter or knows more.
I happen to be reading much of your concerns already on Kingsfans. I disagree with you. I’m not the only one who does as well.
Not easily duplicated, but is it worth taking a gamble on Thabeet? Rubio, whom you have concerns over his athleticism, is already a quality basketball player, and as Dime Dropper noted, the best PG in Europe right now. He’s 18. Thabeet is 22, hasn’t really learned the game, plays poorly against top competition, and to boot, is simply 7’3 and athletic. Oh, yeah, that’s the guy I would want to roll my dice on.
Your categories sir:
Bust Category #2 (Kwame Brown Memorial): Raw “upside” guys who don’t pan out
Notable examples since 2000: Patrick O’Bryant, Saer Sene, Yaroslav Koralev, Robert Swift, Sebastian Telfair, Rodney White, Kedrick Brown, Stromile Swift, Jerome Moiso, Kwame Brown, Keyon Dooling.
That doesn’t sound at all like Thabeet. Bottom line, is that among the things you said, I agree with you that Teague is a sleeper. Besides that, I didn’t agree with it. I liked the effort you put into stating your opinion, which is why I rec’d it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying I'm smarter...
Or trying to pick a fight. Just pushing back on the things I disagree with, just like you.
And really, I hope you’re right about Rubio, because if he’s on the board I’d be stunned if Petrie didn’t pick him.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I hope you so too
And, nbrans, I’m not stubborn enough to believe I’m right. I just think I am. And your arguments, minus Teague, are exactly where I think this team can’t afford to go.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Erm
Well, with the top pick anyway. With the lower Houston pick, totally a player like Thabeet would be the type of reach Petrie should absolutely go for. It’s all a matter of opinion on this subject.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My personal philosophy/bias on this...
Is that the Kings need athleticism and defense, and I think you see that reflected in my choices.
But I may well be just so scarred by the Beno/Bibby and Brad Miller era that I’m not seeing clearly.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Always possible (with regards to Beno/Bibby/Miller)
I agree the KIngs need some more athleticism I guess (although not really—Donte JT and Kevin Martin are all above average athletes), but by the same token, I can’t see Thabeet making that great of an impact.
You’re not stupid, so I pose this question to you: Which is the worst draft (overall—for every team) since the move in 85 to Sactown? Please give details. I’m curious to see where you stand on this.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Worst drafts, IMO, and ironically the Kings got screwed in 2 out of 3
1989: Pervis, of course, although there was Sean Eliott, Tim Hardaway and Shawn Kemp saving this on from irrelevancy
1990: The year we had four picks and came away badly. Gary Payton was basically it in that draft, save for Elden Campbell, Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round and a few others. I think this is probably the weakest draft ever.
2000: This is the draft that I think most resembles the current one, and it’s the bizarro draft with the 1-6 (KMart, Swift, Miles, Fizer, Miller, DerMarr Johnson) arguably sucking more than 16-21 (Hedo, Mason, QRich, Magloire, Speedy Claxton, MoPete). When there’s not much differentiating the top from the bottom and there aren’t many standouts at the top (which I think is happening in this draft) there’s a lot of room for late sleepers. The Houston pick gives me hope for this draft.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Both picks give me hope
I ain’t going to lie. I agree the 1989 was the worst draft out of all of them, as far as I can tell, if for nothing else, there wasn’t like the KIngs missed out on any real players. The best 2 players: Tim Hardaway (14th) and Shawn Kemp (17th) were unknown quantities that 2 playoff teams took risks on. They both panned out.
Everyone else from the 89 draft was a straight role player, other than Sean Elliott and Glen Rice, and neither guy set the world on fire.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm
Mookie Blaylock was also in that draft (forgot about Mookie), and of course, Vlade. Maybe I was a tad hasty.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how you look at it
’89 was the year of longhsots who ended up panning out, so those at the top got screwed.
’90 was just bad.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True you do have a good point on that one
But, thats one reason it’s a bit hard for me to feel sorry for bad franchises. The better teams take more risks, and figure out whether or not they can afford it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good call on 1990
1989 gets a bad rap, but their was talent there that Bill Russell and Jerry Reynolds missed. (As much as Jerry doesn’t want to admit it.)
I think 1990 was worse. But, I will always have a soft spot for Mr Chris Jackson of LSU. Lord, he could shoot. (Ya’ll probably remember him as Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My "late sleeper" pick...
… is Tyler Smith.
He’s skilled, has a good handle, can break players down off the dribble and most importantly is very consistant. He almost never has a bad game. He may drop to the mid teens to early 20’s.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 22, 2009 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rankings
When are you going to release your rankings this year?
I assume you want to wait until the college season is over, but how long does it take to crunch the numbers?
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 7:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rankings!
Thanks for remembering my college rankings from last year! You are correct, I do wait until the season is over before I “publish” the numbers because at this point in the season, the teams have only just begun to play their conference rivals so the numbers are very skewed right now. Also, the more games the better.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great
I look forward to seeing them.
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A sample for anyone not familier
Remember, this was before the draft, so keep in mind that JT wasn’t even on most people’s radar (note: sorry for the formatting)…..
Rank / Player-Class / Pos. / Score
14 / Jason Thompson-Se / PF / 89
85-90: FRINGE/SOLID STARTER. Players in this range are usually talented enough to make an NBA roster as a starter, but may or may not be good enough to be a full-time starter on a good team. The closer they are to 90, the much greater chance that they will end up being a career starter. Most, however, will at least have a long NBA career. Players in this group include Marcus Camby (89.5), John Salmons (87.5), Francisco Garcia (86.5) and Doug Christie (85.5).
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
JT did have MAN numbers in college.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but (pt. 2)
If I only looked at his numbers, he would have been in the upper 90’s. It’s not JUST the numbers I look at. It’s many other factors.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, my bad,
didn’t mean to imply I was doubting the system. I was just saying, that a quick look at the numbers roughly would indicate the same thing.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Consider it
more recognition of JTs accomplishments than complaints against the Dalt system.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True
I was just clarifying for the masses.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have publish how you get your #'s dalt?
That’s something I find just as intriguing.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 23, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
It would be a LOOONG post to fully go into all the variables and formulas of how I get the final numbers but simply, in order of importance, I look at:
- - The stats. Mainly I focus on points, assists, rebounds, steals and FG%. Many variables go into them such as bonuses for stats such as an assist/turnover ratio of over 2.0 while averaging over 10 pts a game.
- - The college/conference they play for. Would you want the Kings to draft a PF that averaged 25 points, 16 rebounds and 4 blocks a game? Sounds great unless he played for the Sacramento St. Hornets. How about those stats at Kansas? Makes a difference.
- - Height vs. position. Obviously a 6’5" PG with the exact same stats as a 5’10" PG is a huge difference when coming into the NBA all things being equal. As the example above with the PF, what if that PF is 6’11"/250 lbs? What if he is 6’7"/195 lbs? Which do you prefer for the NBA?
- - Intangibles. Last, I look for intangibles such as athleticism, defense and minor stats such as blocks, 3-pt shooting, points per shot, turnovers and others.
I put ALL 4 areas together using numerous mathmatical formulas. I use charts and graphs as well. I then put them all together to get to the final number.
To come up with the formulas, charts and graphs took many years by comparing hundreds of players’ (college AND NBA) stats from the past 20+ years from Michael Jordan down to Duane Causwell and everywhere inbetween.
It’s never going to be perfect, I am the first to realize that (I am way off on a couple players each year), but it’s still cool to be right every so often when most GM’s were wrong such as with Brandon Roy (97), Rajon Rondo (93.5), Rodney Stuckey (91) and Adam Morrison (83).
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Height..
Do you go by listed height or do you wait for the official draft measurements?
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Both sort of
Well, I initially go by the listed height (and sometimes by what I see with my own eyes if they are on TV alot) but my final numbers use the draft measurements. Which is why I usually don’t have my final numbers until a couple weeks before the draft. Luckily it’s not that time consuming to change the numbers based on one changed stat and not every player will change.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see the whole breakdown and all the work you put into it dalt
But, that’s me, personally. We don’t always agree on basketball things, but we certainly agree your formula is worth your hard work & effort you put into it. I certainly have learned things from it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 6:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My view of him may be skewed
Because I watched that Kentucky game where he stunk it up all around and was one of many Tennessee defenders who got absolutely destroyed by Meeks.
I better watch him again.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And may I offer this comparison
in 2002 (and I would prefer honesty), did you believe that Yao Ming or Jason (Jay) Williams would be better?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yao
In all honesty. I thought Bill Simmons was insane.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
And I thought J-Will had a chance at all-stardom.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But..
I also thought Jay Williams was going to end up being really good. So there’s that.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jinx
LOL
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I will say nbrans
I think it’s very difficult to judge players solely on college, international, however you want to define it. Watching players go against inferior competition is not always a wise way to guage how a player will do against, in some cases, better, and in many cases, the same level of talent. Everybody in college can play basketball, and everybody in the NBA was the best player on their college team.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nbrans - don't worry
PG is only against Thabeet because I’m for him. There’s really no unbiased logical thought process going on.
7’3", hops, shotblocker, still growing and progressing. Whats not to like?
i do still want to see how he does as conference play continues against tougher opponents . . . . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You wish that was the case
I’m against Thabeet for the following reasons: His age, his types of abilities, and, unfortunately, his poor showing against quality competition.
Now, do I think that means that much when adding it all up? No, not necessarily. NBA teams are pretty good at judging NBA caliber players, and most teams, figure out who they want by the system they run.
I have yet to hear a reason how Thabeet makes the kIngs better, and how he does so next season. Hasheem Thabeet is not Dikembe Mutombo. Mutombo was a quality player @ Georgetown who excelled against quality competition. The only thing Mutombo didn’t do well @ Georgetown, shock, wait for it, was score. But, even then, Mutombo averaged over 13 points for the first 10 years of his career. He did little things well. I haven’t heard anyone talk about the types of screens he sets (something Mutombo didn’t get much credit for), how well he finished inside when someone is challenging his shot, and unfortunately, how he does against better competition. Oh, wait, nevermind.
In short, this isn’t always about you & me.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another point for Mutombo is
That he learned the game quickly. Thabeet has not. It’s not like Jim Calhoun is an idiot, and while he’s not John Thompson either, who is?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Define quickly....
Mutombo was 24 when he graduated from Georgetown.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm aware of that
But was he playing in the Congo before that? Thabeet went to HS. (I will admit, that if nothing else, that playing with Mourning did help him.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mutombo is also ridiculously smart
I mean, as a guy, he’s just mind boggingly smart. I wish I could speak 5 languages fluently, along with multiple dialects.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Whats not to like?"
Ohhh…I dunnoooo. Maybe it’s the inability to score against college players. You put him in the NBA, forget about it.
by CloudyEyes on Jan 22, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Especially in college where the average center is like…6’9"
by CloudyEyes on Jan 22, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that the Kings need athleticism and defense, and I think you see that reflected in my choices.
Yes.
Yes.
YES.
The question is whether Geoff Petrie will EVER pick a guy that fits that description. I doubt it.
Shut up and Coach
by Carl on Jan 22, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
great article!
The analysis is spot on. Leave it to Kings to take the pipe in a year with possibly one of the worst crop of players since we placed our hopes on Pervis Ellison.
Damn you Robert Horry!!!
by chupacabara on Jan 22, 2009 1:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nice piece
Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer defy rule #1 (they are both from Duke and they are both generally (undersized for their position), but I would call them rare exceptions to your rule. However, when considering the undersized/unathletic element, you must take into consideration the entire package, including wingspan (Brand) or the ability to finish with either hand (Boozer).
Again, this rule would be right a whole lot more than it would be wrong.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 22, 2009 1:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Name a rule that is 100%
And, my response is: You live on Fantasy Island.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
When the Kings score fewer points than their opponent, they lose.
100%.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 22, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank You Mel Brooks Jr
I knew you could be counted on.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that true
even in the case where you can’t field a 5 man squad (due to either injury or fouling out)? Does the team forfeit at that point? I honestly don’t know.
by hozr on Jan 23, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I thought about Boozer and thought about including a “strength” caveat that tends to help power forwards with rebounds (see: Kevin Love). But the thing was long enough.
Though I would argue that Boozer’s not actually undersized (he’s 6’9", which I see as the cutoff), and he’s a good athlete, just not a spectacular one.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Boozer & Arenas both slipped for really mind boggling reasons?
2001 was a very strange draft overall.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One of my theories
Is that one major category of draft sleepers are guys who come from good teams but are overshadowed by their teammates. That happened to both Boozer and Arenas.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd add a mid-major corollary to that rule, too
Jameer Nelson, David West, not to mention JT, all from second tier colleges, all underrated due to fears that they wouldn’t be able to translate their games to the next level.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
That’s the second part of the theory.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jameer Nelson too
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Best analytic post by anyone in a long time here.
What a refreshing dose of reality. I can’t really disagree with anything you say, except for the rubio as a poor defender – he is far above average for his age, but yes, he is a poor, poor athlete, which is deadly against the quick guards of the league.
by Citadel 29 on Jan 22, 2009 1:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
also its funny how much chad ford gushes about darko. loser.
by Citadel 29 on Jan 22, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
other big men in that draft id take over darko:
bosh, kaman, david west, matt bonner, kendrick perkins.
by Citadel 29 on Jan 22, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Brilliant post, but in terms of the quality conclusion, eh...
I don’t need the weatherman to tell me it’s raining. If draft analysis was actually meaningful it’d lose its necessity. Does this draft class suck? Sure. But I’ve got good news, the Kings suck more. Even in the worst case prognostication I’d take crappier Kenyon Martin or Gimp Webber. Kevin Durant they aren’t, but Sacramento did just lose to Washington at home. Besides I’m not not convinced we won’t be in similar straits in 2010. So there’s always next year and John Wall You Tube highlights.
Probably the most underrated draft storyline for Sacramento is that Houston pick, because I think guys like Teague and Mills and Johnny Flynn could be available there. And that changes much of the color of our draft.
by rbiegler on Jan 22, 2009 1:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Mills & Flynn are interesting points
Right now, DX, currently has MIlls on the 2010 mock draft, and in the 20’s last time I looked. Flynn is currently 25th on DX’s mock. Now, I’m not saying Flynn, or Mills (if he came out) wouldn’t be quality reaches for this team at that pick. It does make sense.
But, my question is, who do you take with the higher pick if you take a PG? Harden? Monroe? Hill? Thabeet? Monroe and HIll make sense, and Harden being a SG, not so much, even if you believe he could play alongside Martin, which I doubt. So, do you take 2 sleeper PG’s, or a big with scoring potential, or what?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very much doubt
That Mills comes out in this draft. He still has ALOT to work on at the college level.
by Bitey on Jan 22, 2009 8:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Petrie wants a point guard
So I will be surprised if he doesn’t draft one this year.
In the 08 draft, I was really hoping for either Westbrook or Augustin, but neither were available, and now I have a man crush on JT.
But this is Petrie we’re talking about, so he might pull his usual shenanigans and get someone nobody knows anything about.
by Aykis16 on Jan 22, 2009 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
enjoyed the post, but...
…gotta disagree on some points.
i would consider blake griffin and thabeet almost equals, in that griffin more excels on the offensive end but may lack defensive ability, whereas thabeet is the opposite (as far as projecting NBA skills). in my mind that levels them out…both could be equally effective on the right team. we could probably use both guys, depending on what style we want to play.
rubio…he may not be extremely athletic, but the kid is playing professional ball at the PG position at a level either equal to or above college hoops, and has been doing so for a while. he’s also doing it in a league that doesnt just let guys waltz into the lane for easy drives. heck, rubio was able to hang with the us olympic team (among other national teams) in a high-stakes game…i dont think too many college PGs could do the same.
a guy can only really be a bust if he’s drafted and fails, and i think a lot of pre-draft discussion about good prospects and potential busts comes down to personal bias and opinion about both what you want for the team and what you like in a player. i would love a pure PG type of player, so i’m higher on rubio, collison, et al….which also means i’m down on combo guys like curry and teague.
by sactoreg on Jan 22, 2009 2:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree on all of that
but I doubt Rubio comes out (we’ll see, but $8mil Euros!)
We do have a young PF, but what about a defensive stopper at Center to go with him? 10-12 pts from the Center position is just fine if he’s stopping just as many on the defensive end.
And yes, both guys would be great. Question, if we do end up with #1, would you trade it (Griffen) down a few spots to get Thabeet (or other) + get another very high pick in 2010 and give us chance at Rubio?
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless
Lets line up the Rec’s for this post.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have
actually been thinking about this a lot… what if we were to land in the top 3 in draft picks… and we take a guy like thabeet or trade down for thabeet or something like that and then say Jennings or one of the other decent PG’s are still available when we pick AGAIN with houston’s pick…
in that scenario i would do it.
and you know that the kings have always had a good scouting staff in Europe so Jennings, Rubio etc. are all being evaluated very well…
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Jan 22, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ant team we would trade that #1 to
would likely be a bad team, and there’s a god chance thier next years pick would be a good one.
Thats providing you avoid the top protected nonsense
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My biggest question for Rubio:
What kind of offensive performance or production can you expect from him right away?
From the highlights I’ve seen, he shoots like he’s wearing lead shoes (Rasheed Wallace style), is going to have to learn quicken his release a lot in order to get shots off at the NBA level and needs to get stronger to be able to compete at the NBA level.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 2:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
He IS still young
But I have concerns over extremely hyped players that don’t have a lot of game tape to back it up. Not saying anything! He may be GREAT. But it worries me.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's LeBron
But I had the same concerns with LeBron also. (It’s also not like Rubio is just not busting out on the scene either. He’s been known for several years now.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
just now busting out on the scene^
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he may not be a great shooter
which would be nice to have in a PG, but on a team with players who like to shoot (martin, garcia, hawes), rubio might be able to get away with that until his jumper improves.
from reports ive read, much of rubio’s offensive game comes by way of slashing and driving to the rim…which is impressive in a league where on-ball play is more physical, and its okay to pack the lane and hammer guys going to the cup. (not literally, but you know what i mean ;)
by sactoreg on Jan 22, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
By that same token
The physical play allows Rubio to use his size and strength (relative to other PGs) on D to an extent that wouldn’t be allowed in the NBA, which is why I think he’ll be such a defensive liability.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no question that Rubio brings risks
At this point, and I think you can agree with this: The risks with Rubio and the risks with Thabeet are why you prefer Thabeet over Rubio. You have a bad feeling about Rubio, right now, and I have a bad feeling, right now, about Thabeet.
I had to be convinced that Spencer Hawes made sense. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think this team can’t afford to take a PG.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Spencer
The jury is still out on that one, and will be until/if he gets over the hump
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 23, 2009 6:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
But his pack makes sense in retrospect.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 6:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
pick^ (oui!)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 6:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
good point
alas, we could debate the night away regarding player ability, so suffice it to say we agree to disagree :)
by sactoreg on Jan 22, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On sactoreg's point
wouldn’t the same be true for Thabeet?
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh sorry
That IS what you said
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rubio
There’s a few things you mention about Rubio that aren’t true. I pointes this out in Pookey’s thread. He’s not super quick, but he’s not slow. Plus, what he lacks in speed he makes up for with great ballhandling. He won’t blow by defenders just running, but he’ll break their ankles and make them weep. His defense is fantastic. Granted, he’s not playing NBA talent, but he puts the effort out (which is a major part of defense) and his defensive skills will only improve. And what’s wrong with his shooting? He can hit long shots. He can drive for layups. His shot is fine. It hasn’t been this year but he’s also nursing a hand injury (which he has played through)
Rubio can “flat out play.” And shoot. And pass. And defend. And lead a team.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 3:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It is the Leadership that would intrigue me
but players won’t be led if it turns he doesn’t measure up NBA talent-wise
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His shooting...
He’s never shot for a high percentage, and more troubling, he can’t get his shot off unless he’s wide open because he has such a slow release.
And still don’t think he’ll be able to penetrate much in the NBA. It takes quickness more than ballhandling.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not how fast you run in the NBA
It’s how fast you are with the ball, and I think people will hear this term used a lot with regards to Rubio: He’s faster with the ball than he is without it. That’s pretty atypical.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Faster with the ball than without it"...
Honestly, it’s stuff like that that makes me so scared of Rubio. People start altering the laws of physics to make the case.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True of Bobby Hurley, Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And you're right
My statement did alter physics a little. But, that’s certainly what it seems like to me. I will admit, though, youtube clips can only take you so far. But, it’s not any different than watching him live on TV.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Faster with the ball"
That’s because its the style he plays. He does his best work with the ball in his hand. He’s not a catch and shoot player.So of course he slows down without the ball because he’s doesn’t need to speed up to get open for a shot. However, he needs to be faster when he has the ball so he can penetrate for a layup or a dish. It’s not altering physics its just how he plays. Kevin is really fast without the ball because he cuts to the hoop to get open. That’s the type of player he is. Rubio is not that type of player and doesn’t need to be.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that term is meant to be taken absolutely
I think everyone can agree that when forced to dribble with a ball, a player is unequivocally slower.
That said, it is a very important characteristic in relative terms. Take Leandro Barbosa and Tony Parker. While in absolute terms I’m sure most of the guards in the NBA can beat them in a dead sprint, when ball-handler vs ball-handler, knowing which guys can still go super-speed is an important characteristic. Now, I know your usual response is “the defender doesn’t have the ball in his hands” – but that’s a different argument. Still having the speed is crucial.
If a slow guy doesn’t get any slower with the basketball, then his speed is more valuable in the NBA than a fast player who can’t handle as easily.
That said….
THABEEEET!!!!!!!
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 22, 2009 10:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Going Backwards?
Now, I know your usual response is "the defender doesn’t have the ball in his hands" – but that’s a different argument.
Yeah, for one thing, the defender is running backwards half the time, and don’t always know which direction they’ll be going next either.
I’d say that would alter their top speed just a tad.
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 7:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and chasing the fast break
and lateral movement, and prognostication of the offenses next move, ability to move around screens.
Lots of issues make a defensive player “fast”, and thankfully most of them can be learned.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe not fair but...
you could those same things – including an impressive showing against the US Olympic team – about former #7 Kings pick Bobby Hurley. (His jumper wasn’t even a question as he held the NCAA record for most 3 pointers in the Tournament, seven).
Derrick Rose was drooled over but a big question mark as far as his ability to score the basketball. The first line of this post said it best:
NBA drafts are a heady mixture of science, art, luck, dice rolling, gut feelings, expertise, and luck
.
by betweentheeyes on Jan 23, 2009 1:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And also
Rubio will most likely enter this year’s draft and come over later
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 3:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Is he even allowed to do that?
I’ve asked before and not sure there’s a clear answer yet.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
If he declares for the draft the team that drafts him holds his rights in perpetuity until he comes to the NBA (like Peja, Scola, Manu, etc.)
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what Peja did
isn’t it?
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Jan 22, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure he had a binding contract
One that didn’t have a reasonable chance of getting out of – did he? (I really don’t know)
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The contracts aren't binding like that
It’s very likely Rubio will come out & declare for the draft if he’s gong to be a top 3 pick. That much is known. Whether he comes over, this year, or next year, makes no nevernind to me.
And Kfan is correct, it’s what happened with Peja. It also happened with Manu Ginobili, Luis Scola, Marc Gasol, Rudy Fernandez. It’s pretty common actually.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And all those guys were worth the wait
weren’t they?
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been looking
and i can’t find anything in the eligibility rules that would stop him from being drafted and staying there until he comes
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a list of
guys who were drafted/teams have rights to (in the case of Josh Childress), and can sign to contracts at any time both team & players agree.
(The Kings did have one player they drafted, in 95, named Dejan Bodiroga. He never came over, but he’s an European legend.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It just seems strange though
declaring yourself eligible – but with no reasonable intention of coming.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he declares
He wants to come over. You can only draft players without them declaring, when they’re international players, when they are 22 years & older. If that makes any sense.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Read this
If you really want a clarification on age rules.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way Rubio would be drafted unless he wanted to come to the NBA
He wants to come to the NBA. I’m not worried about your hypothetical at all. All his countryman are already over here, and many of them doing well. That’s yet another reason for him to jump.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tiago Splitter
The most recent case I remember myself, did he declare or did the Spurs just pick him?
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the Spurs just picked him
Because if I remember correctly, he was 22 at the time of the draft (the calender year).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, they picked him
And he decided to stay overseas for the $$.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What did Tau offer him?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can I have a link for that if you don't mind?
I’m interested in learning more how the European system works monetarily and such.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
From his Wiki page, it says as much
It states that he was offered 8x what he would get from the NBA as a rookie, but the sourced page from ESPN Brazil is dead.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah thanks for the effort
It’s a bit difficult to find links to this stuff sometimes.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if you're interested in learning about European transactions
I’d look at the way things are done for soccer over there, it’s pretty much the same system.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay I'll try to do that
I’ll admit, I don’t have experience in this area, and without a guide, it’s a bit difficult to decipher it sometimes. Thanks for the advice, either way though.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No problem, it is hard to wade in
I mean, basically, it’s straight money purchases. Cash for a player, or for the rights for the first option on a player, paid up front and/or over a period of time (12 or 24 months, usually).
There are essentially no player for player trades, because there are no salary or roster limitations, except for a limit on how many Americans you can have on your team (2 or 3 in most leagues).
Free agency doesn’t really work the same way either, as teams try to keep good players under contract as long as possible, and sell them on to try to turn a profit if they are too good for the club they are playing for.
The best way to learn how it works, and the way I learned how it works, is by playing a game called Football Manager, which is a soccer simulator where you basically run a club.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, i forgot to mention
Completing a transfer isn’t the end of the story in Europe. The club you’re working with can agree to the transfer, but if the player doesn’t agree to the contract you offer him, and/or doesn’t want to play for your team, there’s not a whole lot that you can do.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a whole different ballgame
It makes me appreciate the subtleties that collective bargaining brings. Jes sayin….
Thank you for the information Matenja. Been quite helpful.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, not a problem
The differences are pretty stark, but it’s pretty fascinating to see how two totally different systems can still work well.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The interesting thing though
Is that Europe still allows itself ot be a feeder system. I wonder if that will ever change.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if the money situation ever evens out
And European clubs can offer players comparable contracts to the NBA, I think the European system will end up being stronger, because it is open and marketized, unlike the NBA which is essentially monopolistic.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean by open & marketized?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, theoretically
Anyone can enter a bottom league, and if they have enough support and money, move up the ladder to a higher league. It’s like the Minor Leagues in baseball, except if the top 5 AAA teams got put into the Majors every season, and the worst 5 teams in the Majors got sent down to AAA.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kinda wish that was the case bartenpa
It might keep teams like the KC Royals from doing what they do.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
It keeps owners from milking their teams for all they’re worth and enriching themselves at the expense of the fans. On the flip side, it makes it tougher for small market teams to survive and compete, because doing the kind of profit sharing that’s done in the NFL and NBA in a league structure like Europe’s is kinda impossible.
by bartenpa on Jan 22, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True
But, man what they do make it, it’s upset heaven baby!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Splitter is 22 years old
Which made him automatically eligible for the draft. Otherwise guys have to declare themselves eligible for the draft.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I already put that up LOL
At least now, he’ll look at one of them, maybe.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They have to declare 60 days prior
if they want to go to pre-draft camps, which you know, shows some intention of coming. duuuuuu
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also lttg
DX has a list of these kind of guys, so you can figure out for yourself whether it’s the type of move the KIngs should consider.
(I think what will determine Rubio’s jump is how much PT he thinks he can get his first year over in the US.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would we be down?
If Rubio were to declare this year but plan to stay in Spain for another year before coming to the NBA, would we want him with a very high pick (#2 or #3)?
For the long run, this could actually be very good. It would mean basically accepting another year of severe suckitude, getting a good draft pick in 2010, and looking at a 2010-2011 season when Rubio and our 2010 pick both join us. That could be a very awesome core, but would we be willing to put up with another season basically like this one? Wasn’t stashing Peja in Europe then bringing him over part of what made the first Renaissance so great? But Peja was no #2, and that would be a lot to give up for an unsure future. Would living through that short-term terribleness be worth the potential long-term awesomeness?
by twasserm on Jan 23, 2009 7:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
in a word,
yes.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
great and frightening post...
just confirms how much luck affects the success of an nba franchise… had we gotten lucky last year, Derrick Rose. How do we shake this curse on this franchise?
by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Jan 22, 2009 4:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
(I know he's supposed to be a good defender but look: he's not exactly guarding Chris Paul over in Spain)
What?? Didn’t you watch the olympics? He guarded Chris Paul in TWO games and gave the US PGs a hard time.
by CloudyEyes on Jan 22, 2009 4:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
My memory is hazy
But wasn’t Rubio mostly guarding Kidd?
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(looking at box score)
Nope guess Kidd didn’t play much.
It was a long time ago and honestly I don’t remember the ins and outs of the game.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...you can stream that whole gold medal game on NBC Online for free.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/player.html?assetid=0815_hd_bkm_en088_1&forcereload=true
You just need to download that silverlight 2.0 and show you have a cable provider in your area.
by CloudyEyes on Jan 22, 2009 5:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hey thanks.
I know how I’m spending my next two hours.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um. Or not.
They say my browser isn’t compatible. Thank you, NBC!!!
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What kind of browser do you use?
(It worked fine for me on firefox.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's not my browser
My laptop is just too old.
Want to summarize what you see?
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll try
I’ll try to do a play by play write up, and if I can figure it out, upload some of onto youtube. I’m not really sure how to do that, so somebody may have to help me.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I'd be satisfied with
- how his defense looked
- whether he was able to get past defenders
- how athletic he looked
My recollection was that he looked average, but again, it was a long time ago and I wasn’t watching thinking, “I better watch this Rubio kid, the Kings might draft him!”
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This might seem like kind of a cheap shot
But isn’t average athleticism in a peer group of CP3, Derron Williams, Kidd, and JC Navarro a good thing? When complemented by superior ballhandling and passing, great size and length, basketball IQ, toughness, and extreme youth, it seems like a pretty attractive package.
I know that I’m flirting with the intangible “flat out play” description, but I believe that lacking of such qualities is often makes “raw upside guys” “knuckleheads” who never reach their athletic potentials.
In a shallow draft, being able to fill a position of need with a guy who has a great deal more experience playing against elite competition at a younger age than his peers and a very high ceiling would be a coup for a truly desperate team.
I completely understand why you (and I, and the rest of StR) are so anxious about avoiding duds in June. As we have all learned during the slide in the last five years, mediocrity can be equally frustrating as suckiness if your team’s momentum isn’t trending toward greatness. It seems to me that you are shying away from good in hopes of hitting a homerun (while being smart enough to realize that an elite defender can be just as much a franchise player as an elite scorer). I think that we need to continue to string together some hits, so that when one does finally leave the park we’ll have ducks on the pond.
I think of it this way: this team isn’t one Dikembe Mutombo (Thabeet) or Gilbert Arenas (Jeff Teague) away from being a contender, so let’s not deprive ourselves of a great team member because we see someone else as having the athletic tools to be a franchise player.
by furious.d on Jan 23, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I meant "average" in terms of basketball players as a whole...
Not “average” in that particular game.
I also really feel like we need a home run. Doesn’t work to just keep adding ok players to a roster of ok players.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I don’t want a whole team of Franciscos and Benos. And I agree with a lot of what you say in the list of common busts. Speedy ballhandlers and strong interior defenders are great equalizers in the NBA right now.
I just wonder if Teague and Thabeet shouldn’t send up the same red flags in our minds that you count against the guys that you don’t like as much. With Thabeet, I wonder about his lateral quickness, ability to defend the pick and roll, offensive limitations, ability to stay healthy, and ability to play with Hawes. With Teague, I fear that his lack of size and PG skills will make him a tweener. The Kings don’t need a SG and they don’t need a PG who can’t run the team and get his teammates good looks. Getting another scorer to pair with Kevin will be great, but not if it’s at the expense of the cohesion created by a true playmaker.
My criticisms might be obvious, but that’s because these potential problems with Teague and Thabeet’s respective NBA games are glaring. I’m not married to the idea of Rubio (or anyone else in this draft) either — which is convenient since we have no idea who’ll be on the board when it comes time for GP to make his selection. I guess I’ll be very interested to see what dalt99’s numbers suggest.
by furious.d on Jan 23, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
and not to be a jerk, but...
I’m gonna assume that “basketball players as a whole” means NBA players, not everyone who’s ever picked up a basketball. If that’s the case, I don’t think that having average NBA athleticism as an 18 year old precludes him from the ability to reach superstardom (Bird, Stockon, McHale, etc.)
by furious.d on Jan 23, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, mean NBA players
Should have been more specific.
And regarding your other comment, I’m really not sold on anyone in this draft in the way that I was on, say, Derrick Rose last year. Everyone has their question marks, and I see everyone as a risk. My basic feeling is that in a draft in which there are so many question marks, you default to the guys who are the most athletic and skilled.
Thabeet has his problems and limitations, but he has good hands, athleticism, and shotblocking. He’s a rare player. Yes, there are absolutely risks about health, about speed, offense, etc. etc. But at worst he’s an athletic 7’3" center. There’s always a role for that.
And yeah, Teague may not be the guy that sets everyone up. But at least he’s blindingly fast and can score. Better to have a scoring point guard and someone definitely quick enough to hang in the NBA than a potential mediocrity who’s not athletic enough.
There’s still a lot of basketball yet to be played, and I could change my mind. My basic mindset is, you can’t really go with the athletes who have good skills they can improve over the nonathletes who have great skills, but who can’t get more athletic.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bungled that last sentence
Should read: My basic mindset is, you go with the athletes who have good skills they can improve over the nonathletes who have great skills, but who can’t get more athletic.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you feel that Mike Bibby would improve?
Because the franchise (read: Petrie) sure did.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 6:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't think Bibby improved that much
When he came to the Kings. He just had an ideal situation for his skills. He was already pretty good in Vancouver.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uhm
Read what I said again. (Seriously)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you should elaborate
Because if I answered a different question than you intended I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You know what you're right
I asked a question, and forgot I asked it. So much for perfection…. My bad nbrans. (Still disagree about the athleticism thing though.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also..
Those guys you chose who reached superstardom without athleticism were from another era. That era doesn’t show any sign of coming back.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Kidd is from anothe era?
Give me a break. You’re telling me there weren’t athletes in the 80’s? Please. 90’s? Please.
In short, and I’m trying to be respectful of that opinion, but it’s complete bullshit. The one thing that has changed from the late 90’s is the emphasis on creating an up tempo style and more points by giving offensive players an advantage over defensive one’s. Just that simple.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Get all pissed if you want
LeBron would destroy Larry Bird. Just as Larry Bird would have destroyed Havlicek.
Look, the game has changed. It’s gotten more athletic. It’s no longer enough to be someone who is incredibly skilled. You have to be insanely athletic AND incredibly skilled.
10 years ago, the best point guards were not very athletic. John Stockton, Gary Payton… now we have Chris Paul, Tony Parker, guys who are some of the quickest players in the history of the game.
The Adam Morrisons need not apply.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one
Cuz there is no way I agree with that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is one of the quickest 7 footers in league history besides Kevin Garnett and completely proves my point?
by nbrans on Jan 27, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We're talking about the league at present and going forward, right?
Dirk is a PF; a PF with great size, but a PF nonetheless. The fact that he is 7 feet tall has been crucial to his success, but doesn’t say anything about his quickness. His quickness should be compared with the guys that he plays against; ie. other PFs, not other 7 footers.
Obviously this is pure opinion (unless you can dig up figures from pre-draft combines – I can’t), but I would guess that the list of PFs in the NBA that were faster sprinters than Dirk during their respective athletic primes is pretty extensive. I would say that PFs like Amare, Garnett, Marion, Bosh, Rudy Gay, Josh Smith, Antawn Jamison, Lamar Odom, Gerald Wallace, Al Horford, among plenty of others, have been quicker than Dirk ever was.
That said, what makes Dirk such a great scorer is his ability to create shots for himself. He is able to do so because he has incredible handles and body control for a 7 footer, not because he has a blinding first step. Furthermore, his great size and fading shot mechanic easily allow him what little separation he needs to get off his incredibly pure stroke. In short: his size (which I completely agree is vital for a basketball player), skill, and instincts, not his athleticism are what make him such a force offensively.
Like people mentioned regarding Rubio, Dirk as quick with the ball as he is without. Like Dirk, Rubio has good size for his position.
Would you honestly put “first step” or “footspeed” at the top of a list of attributes that make Dirk a great basketball player? If so, watch him play defense (even in his physical prime) and reconsider.
I’m not saying Dirk is Vlade Divacs or anything, but you claimed that NBA players need to be “insanely athletic AND incredibly skilled.” I would argue that Dirk’s talent skews much further toward incredibly skilled than insanely athletic.
Again, I agree that quickness is more important in today’s game than it ever has been. I just think that if we have to create a rule defining what sets NBA winners apart from NBA losers it should be that elite work ethic wins out, not that elite athleticism wins out. And that’s what makes the draft such a crapshoot: Everyone is willing to work his ass off to become a millionaire NBA player, but very few are willing to continue to work once they’ve accomplished that.
by furious.d on Jan 28, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, he's athletic
He’s quick. He’s got a great first step, he can create off the dribble. He’s a great athlete. If you want to tell me it’s not as important to be a really good athlete in the NBA in order to be a star, he’s not the example to choose.
by nbrans on Jan 28, 2009 5:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Granted
Dirk is athletic. So were Stockton, Bird, and even McHale.
My point was simply that you don’t have to have Tony Parker’s quicks, Jason Richardson’s hops, Amare’s explosiveness, or Dwight Howard’s strength to be a great NBA player and that being an elite athlete doesn’t necessarily make you a great player (Gerald Wallace).
Average NBA players don’t have average athleticism and elite skills (as Rubio projects to have), they have average athleticism and average skills.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion, but I think that we’re the only ones still paying attention to this thread and it doesn’t seem like either of is will be swayed.
by furious.d on Jan 28, 2009 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we're mostly in agreement
I would just say that NBA stars don’t tend to have average athleticism and elite skills, they tend to have above average to elite athleticism AND elite skills.
Totally agree that elite athleticism alone doesn’t translate to stardom, or else Stromile Swift would have domintaed the last five years. But similarly, elite skills doesn’t translate to stardom either, or else Adam Morrison would be the next great small forward.
You need both athleticism and skills. And my basic drafting philosophy is: guys don’t get more athletic. They can develop their skills. Stay away from the completely raw/uncoordinated guys, but go for the guys who are both athletic and skilled. That’s why I’d take Teague over Rubio.
I’m sure Rubio will be fine as an NBA player. At worst he’s a bigger, more creative Sergio Rodriguez But a star worth drafting at #2? Dunno. There aren’t many stars, particularly perimeter players, who are only average athletes. I still think the comparison is late model Jason Kidd: helping a team, but not really threatening to make the All-Star team either.
But yeah, interesting discussion, and I’m really looking forward to June and beyond.
by nbrans on Jan 28, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If nothing else
Your points are worth keeping in mind when you’re looking at a player. (Cuz that argument works against James Harden as well.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 29, 2009 5:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was still paying attention
but I think you guys covered both sides of the argument well…….
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 29, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, finally able to re-watch USA/Spain online...
I’m sorry. Rubio is not quick. He’s not quicker than Jason Kidd right now. Just watch him bring the ball up on the first possession under pressure. He can do it, but he can’t get around Kidd.
Don’t get me wrong: He had some really sweet plays and he’s an awesome ballhandler — he had a very good no look to Pau on a break, a nice behind the back move into the lane and stutter-step for a layup, and in the 4th Quarter he had a nice skip pass to Fernandez for a 3 on a break. He’s good at changing speeds and directions and he does a good job of fooling guys. But once these players get used to his patented behind-the-back and change direction he’s not going to fool them anymore — it’s a crafty move, not a quick one.
Quickness? Didn’t really see it. His defense on Kidd was absolutely not at all good in the early going, and then Spain played zone every single time USA subbed in Chris Paul (now that’s some respect), so Rubio never guarded him. He gets caught up easily in screens (he’ll probably get better on that as he gained strength), got burned by Chris Paul for an easy and-one on a break, and never really made much happen. Fernandez looked quicker bringing the ball up, and he’s a 6’6" shooting guard, and Navarro got into the lane much more often for some floaters. A lot of Rubio’s passes were broken up, even if they didn’t all result in turnovers
Honestly, I’m not a hater. I came away from re-watching this impressed, moreso than I remembered (except for his fugly jumper). It’s really, really hard not to like this guy, which is entirely why I developed “rules” so my eyes wouldn’t be tricked. It’s easy to lose sight of the basics when you like the way someone plays.
Absolutely a baller and very impressive for 17. But I didn’t come away feeling disproved on the quickness question. He could still be a player. But I’m still worried.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone watching Georgetown/WVU?
Greg Monroe looking spectacular on offense and particularly passing. If only this guy could rebound.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm willing to hear about Monroe
He’s one guy I’m willing to change my mind about with regards to Rubio. Chances are small, but still, more than Thabeet for instance. LOL
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 22, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His passing is just awesome, particularly for a frosh
But he is tissue paper soft. Another player who I just can’t bear to get behind after the Brad Miller era, particularly with Hawes already on board.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hawes 2.0
Monroe definitely looks like Hawes, but a much better passer and (by anecdote) a far worse shooter away from the basket. But yeah, the defensive rebounding in particular is troublesome.
by Ziller on Jan 22, 2009 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a good game for him tonight
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 22, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds exactly like the kind of player Petrie loves
Which might have something to do with how bad of a rebounding and defensive team this is right now.
Shut up and Coach
by Carl on Jan 22, 2009 8:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post. Loved the tone.
I don’t know how or why… but somehow this post (along with the very? shallow 2009 draft) makes me feel that Brad won’t be traded before the deadline.
by ZenBaller on Jan 22, 2009 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A few more things
You mention being scared of this year’s draft. If it’s not very deep what’s there too be scared of? If you’re expectations aren’t high can you really be disappointed? And at this point isn’t it worth it to take a risk and some slightly unknown Spaniard? It’s worked out quite well for other teams. Plus, he’s already played fairly decently and with confidence in the Olympic gold medal game against top US talent. So, in a not so deep draft, he’s well worth the risk.
Just think of what he’ll do for Kevin and Shock and Hawes. Those passes Kevin likes to get from Brad? Rubio can do that easily. Badly need interior scoring? Rubio loves driving into the paint and passing it off to a big man who is no longer being guarded.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 7:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Scared...
Because this team needs a superstar, not someone who’s going to drop a few nice passes and be a liability on D. Maybe Rubio will be more (I sure hope so, if we draft him), but we need more out of this draft than a solid single.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Liability on D?
How? How in the hell can someone be a liability on defense when we already have no defense? Our starting point guard could be an open door to the hoop and our defense still couldn’t be worse. With Rubio it’s the opposite. He’s an annoying ass defender. He’ll press the opposing PG, wearing him like a glove ala GP. The only real argument is that he hasn’t guarded NBA level talent. But he IS a talented defender and will prove to be with the right experience.
You say we need a superstar but you’re original point seems to be that this draft is terrible. So in a terrible draft when we desperately need a star don’t you take the high risk/high reward guy? And technically, he’s not a high risk because rookie contracts are only a few million a year for three years. But if he pans out it’s huge for us.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I see the elite athletes as the high risk/high reward guys, not the (relatively) slow point guards who may or may not be wizards passing the ball. Hence my preference for Teague and Thabeet.
Maybe Rubio’s defense will translate — I’m skeptical, because I just don’t know that he’s quick enough to stay in front of guys. We’ll see.
by nbrans on Jan 22, 2009 8:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just looked at Ziller's next thread re David Lee
If Blake Griffin is a “more skilled David Lee” why not draft Griffin instead of paying David Lee 10+ million per year? I don’t know how tall Griffin is but he looked taller than 6’-7" when I saw him play. Last year Beasley lost almost 2 inches at the Florida pre-draft camp, I don’t think Griffin is going to lose that much.
The draft positions of most players vary a lot in the time after the NCAA tourney, last spring ESPN’s lottery machine had Westbrook going to us at the 12 spot. Rose and Beasley flip flopped between the 1 and 2 spot and Chicago didn’t decide who they would draft first until the day of the draft. While the position of most players in the lottery will fluctuate up until draft day, the top 3 player rarely do although their positions may vary.
Your post was well written, funny and well thought out although I thought your analysis of Griffin was too glib. It’s way too early to have firm opinions on this years lottery players until after we have seen the Final Four. We ARE just bad enough to get the # 1 pick this year although after we pick up Mike Conley Jr at the trade deadline I’m not sure how much of a need we are going to have for Ricky Rubio anyway.
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
by Bluejohn on Jan 22, 2009 7:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
One reason for signing David Lee for a lot
is that you’d get to have David Lee AND Ricky Rubio, rather than a “more skilled” David Lee only. Yeah, it’s $10 million a year, but that gives us a great backcourt trio. Our lineup then looks like this:
Beno/Rubio (obligatory starting of the veteran that will change once Rubio’s awesomeness shines through)
Martin/Garcia
Salmons/Greene
Lee/Thompson
Hawes/Lee
Isn’t that the start of a really good team?
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Jan 22, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The flip side
Using Bluejohn’s assumption that the team trades for Conley, you could say the same thing drafting Griffin.
Instead of Lee & Rubio, we could potentially see Griffin & Conley.
I’d prefer the former over the latter, but I thought I’d give the counter-point..
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Thanks for sharing your observations. I don’t follow college ball close enough to join the debates, but I’m staunchly anti-Griffin. Aside from that, I rely on posts like this to help me join the debates in June.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Jan 22, 2009 8:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Jrue Holliday For me
Your words: “He simply cannot create a shot for himself. Not even an embarrassing airball! He literally can’t get a shot off. "
Draft Express: "Although his ball-handling skills are still improvable, he can create his own shot going left or right, and is extremely crafty getting his shot off. Not immune to making freshman mistakes, Holiday does turn the ball over at a slightly above average rate.”
I think i’ll trust draft express
by HarbirD on Jan 22, 2009 10:27 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Crafty...
Is a euphemism for: there’s no way in hell this translates to the NBA unless your name is Ginobelli and the refs love you.
“Crafty” is exactly the kind of word nbrans is warning about.
The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.
by ForThree on Jan 23, 2009 6:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trust them if you want..
But they’re wrong on that.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 6:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What are the chances...
..of Petrie trading the 1st round pick? Trading down and getting a good center and a good point guard in a package deal? I mean, I know it’s pretty rare to trade the #1 (I think Orlando trading Webber was the last time…at least the last time I can remember..) but with a shallow 2009 draft pool, the crap shoot gets even more dicey. A coupla birds in the hand is better that a high first round bust at the end of the bench.
I’d be willing to bet that Petrie could find several teams willing to part with perhaps a center who isnt the worst defender in the NBA, a point guard who can run a team and play D, and a high first rounder this year, maybe a first or second rounder in ‘10, and who know what else. Hard to gauge what teams would be willing to give for a high 1st round pick because it is not often done. The worst record team only gets a 1 in 4 chance for the #1 overall pick. So even our chances of even getting a top 3 pick are a crap shoot. The Kings picked a really lousy year to be lousy (is there really ever a good year to be lousy?). So far, all the talking heads and draft pundits are predicting this draft to be historically devoid of “sure thing” NBA talent. Would you rather have 2 REAL NBA players in positions you need, still have a relatively high pick, and possiby more picks in the future, or the very real possibility of a 1st round bust? I’m sure everyone here remembers “Never Nervous Pervis”? That prospect truly frightens me. Petrie has been a fair judge of talent, but the pickins are pretty slim this year. Outside of the top 3 picks, it looks historically dicey. And even the top 3 candidates look to have bust potential. There are just no Lebrons in this draft class…
I for one would love it if Petrie was able to parley our 1st rounder this year into a Good center, a good point guard or a good young point prospect, a top 10 first rounder this year, and picks in ‘10 as well. That might be the quickest path to success, or at the very least respectability. No one player in this draft appears to be an IMPACT player that will catapult the Kings into a .500 team. In all fairness, the college season has not played itself out this year, and the draft might look a lot better in June than it does today, but HOW MUCH better? We can all agree the Kings are lacking talent. Petrie has always played it conservative and where has it gotten us? Sure, we will have 2010 cap money like a lot of teams, but one very good player does not make a team. And Sacramento isn’t high on the destination list of top flight allstars. The Kings don’t have enough good pieces to be “one player away”. Any way Petrie can increase the talent level has to be considered. The one glaring drawback to this wacky plan is that if the draft pick you trade away turns out to be an allstar, you will look very foolish for a long time. But after watching last nights game, how much worst can this organization look? This team is in desperate need of a massive talent infusion. Radical change needs to occur before success returns to River City.
by FaStRmAn on Jan 22, 2009 11:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
basically your asking for Petrie to turn one high pick
int four mid-picks. Cause that PG and Center had to have been decent picks, the mid-tens this year and another pick next year?
That’s alot to ask of a team. The onyl way you’d give up that much if you thought the pick being recieved would take your team over the top.
Maybe Portland can do it? They have alot of PGs, though I’m not sure what center they would/could give up. I’m assuming we’d get their picks this year and next year. All for the Blake Griffin/Rubio spot? I guess it’s a possibility. I’m not sure why the Kings’d do it.
Not many other teams have the necessary depth-in-youth and the excessivities of everything else with the necessity of the semi-now. Maybe Memphis gives Conley, ???? and their pick. The Bulls? The Sixers? The Pacers?? The Rockets? The Wolves????
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 22, 2009 11:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Memphis
I think the best the Kings could hope for would be a deal with Memphis.
If the Kings are sitting on the #1 overall, Memphis would probably give up Conley & change to swap picks and take Griffin. The bonus of this is that the Kings wouldn’tshouldn’t drop down too far to do it.
It would basically be Love/Miller for Mayo Part 2 . . . but if it goes down, just hope it turns out better for the Kings than the T-Wolves (they could have Jefferson, Roy & Mayo right now!).
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade down for Thabeet
Which fills a need,not a bad startegy in a questionable draft, and secure a bad teams 1st next yr, when hopefully we’ll be better.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 23, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
By “change” I didn’t mean a future 1st Rounder.
I don’t think even Griffin would return two 1sts and a prospect. That’s the going price for aging proven Superstars (Shaq, Kidd, etc), not potential ones.
by smgmatt on Jan 23, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but is Conley, Thabeet, (maybe a fringe player) worth Griffin?
That’s basically what the trade comes down to. Glad I’m not making the decision.
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Jan 23, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Conley isn't worth Griffin if you ask me
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 6:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a better question is
Is Griffin going to make any difference at all to the present roster in terms of wins and losses? Perhaps in 3 or 5 years… Maybe and maybe not. As opposed to trading down, picking up a Jrue Holiday or a Thabeet, and acquiring a Conley or a solid NBA Caliber Player.
The talent drain on this team has been devastating. Petrie has cut loose a lot of talent without bringing any talent back. I’d like to think he has a plan, but if his plan is to land an AllStar player in 2010 then his plan isn’t going to work because that is the SAME DAMN PLAN as just about every other team in the league including some contenders… Everyone is angling to land a big fish in 2010, and Sacramento is a small pond compared to the brighter lights (read commercial endorsements) of other bigger cities. The Kings will have to overpay mediocre talent to come to Sacramento, and then we will have one more player who will be disgruntled because there isn’t enough TALENT on the Kings roster to compete.
Petrie should act BEFORE the 2/19 deadline and try to take advantage of GM’s who are under pressure to dump salary to become players in the 2010 Free for All. GM’s will be looking to unload good players in exchange for cap flexibility in 2010. The Kings need to use expiring contracts, draft picks, and current roster players to acquire more talent for the current roster. But unfortunately, Petrie hasn’t really shown the ability to swing the BIG risk trades that bring the talent we need here to Sacramento. Chris Webber trade was on May 14, 1998. That was 11 years ago. Not exactly recent history Genius…. We need Petrie to work the magic a little more often than once every 10 years..
by FaStRmAn on Jan 24, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm all for criticizing Petrie but that's just, uhm, something else
First off, what drain of talent has Petrie lost for this team? Bibby? Please. Dude was sucking wind under Musselman, and the only affirming attribute he brought to the last full season, was that he played all 82 games. Some to the detriment of his team. Petrie was not dealing Bibby who played in the 01-02 season (who has not matched it since), and yet, somehow, he lost him? Please.
The talent drain has hurt this team in the win column. They didn’t exactly make the playoffs with Ron Artest around the last 2 season. I’d rather be bad and awful, even excruciating, than be what the Kings were with Artest last season. Part of the cycle is being bad. Petrie skipped that step the last go round. Some of that was Mitch, but some of that, was the KIngs needed to be a winning team quickly, and it worked out well.
Before you condemn Petrie does in 2010, you might actually want to get there first. There’s no guarantee of anything in 2010, and I’m pretty sure Geoff knows that. Before you condemn Petrie for things like Brad Miller, why don’t you wait to see what he does before commenting further? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to condemn for not making a Brad MIller trade by the deadline when the deadline hasn’t passed. Right?
I know when the FIRST Webber trade was. I was still in High School (barely) when it happened. I remember not being thrilled, as Mitch was my favorite player. I also didn’t understand everything that happened with the Kings. I didn’t know who Jason Williams was until 1999. I could blame that on being in the Navy, but I didn’t go to boot camp until Nov 98. I just didn’t care about the team anymore, and I was more focused on the job I had, and other things going on at the time. I was turned of by the 97 98 team, and it hurt my overall interest of the club. I admit that. I’m not a genius, but I am honest. Your pretty little statement, is intellectually dishonest. It also does Kings fans to have your point of view.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It also does KIngs fans no good to have you point of view
Is what the last line should say. (Me and my crappy typos. Argh. SBN 3.0 should have an option to fix that. Jess sayin…)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the draft is perceived as weak overall or balanced
How many teams are going to want to give up lower draft picks/players to jump up?
If it’s a strong draft with exceptional talent at the top, keep the pick and let Petrie do his thing.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
by otis29 on Jan 23, 2009 4:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And that is EXACTLY what I think Petrie will do..
Play it safe and keep the pick. Only problem is he has a team full of young potential, and no one who can friggin play BALL! What is another young player going to bring to this team except more losses and more frustration. There has to be a point where solid NBA players need to be obtained to play solid NBA Basketball. The Kings have a scant few REAL NBA Players (sorry Brad, you aint one). I guess my argument isn’t so much trade the pick as it is what has Petrie done, and what will he do differently in the future to recreate this tragedy movie into an action-drama ???
However I do believe the 1st overall or even a top 3 picks have a lot of value because teams know a huge percentage of your superstar or all star, star players, or even quality role players come from the first 10 picks. The lower the number, the greater chance for risk/reward. I DO believe that Petrie can draft a SAFE young player that will play in the NBA for years to come (ie not a bust. A player like Hedo). What I don’t think he is capable of is acquiring talent in the free agent market to complement the players we have on this roster. I haven’t been blown out of the water by any of the last 5 or 6 free agent signings, and I believe that Petrie either has great difficulty convincing talent to come here, or is unwilling to take a chance on good talent by trading draft picks and players to acquire it.
We have a Talent Void on the Kings team and there needs to be an infusion of talent to make the team work. We need the Glue players to put all these pieces together, and we need BETTER PIECES… Petrie has traded a lot of good pieces away, but no talented pieces were acquired to replace them. That is the real reason the Kings STINK. Lack of TALENT !! . Was that the PLAN? Is there a PLAN? I know Petrie likes to play things close to the vest, but it looks for all the world like this movie is a BUST, and they just keep adding more bad footage to the end of it…
by FaStRmAn on Jan 24, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff Nbrans
Question: What do you think about Ty Lawson? Yes he is undersized but he is SUPER fast, has good ball handling skills, is an excellent passer (3.74 a/t ratio) and an above average shooter at 53% from the field and 47.3% from (cough) college (cough) 3-point range.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 12:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Can't decide how I feel about Lawson
But there are two things that concern me: one is being undersized. Yeah, he’s quick, but he’s not really blinding in the way Jeff Teague is, and of course, Teague famously worked Lawson. I get really nervous about undersized players, as you can see above, unless they are spectacular athlete. I wouldn’t call Lawson spectacular.
What I keep coming back to is that Lawson is a good scorer and a good passer. He can shoot, but he’s not a great shot creator. He can pass, but he’s not a really brilliant passer. I think I would rather have someone who is either a really good scorer or a really good passer rather than someone who is just good at both.
But I’ll keep watching as the season goes on.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't disagree
I guess that’s why this draft is so weak. There are good players, but no great ones so it seems.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 23, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great sleeper
Terrence Williams from Louisville. I watch him every game and there is no better athlete out there. Had a minor problem with his shooting form that has been corrected this year. Plays almost the entire game, every game. If the team needs defense, he plays defense; need points, he gets points; need assists, he gets assists; need a drive, he drives, you get the picture. He is fearless, coachable and the toughest baller on the team. Draft express has him at 30, but they are way out-of-date on his progress this year. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terrence-Williams-507/
Yes, I’m a Louisville fan, but he really is a great player.
by polotown on Jan 23, 2009 8:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Not really a fan
But I know a lot of people like him.
by nbrans on Jan 23, 2009 8:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the 2nd 1st rd, or even the first 2nd rd
Athletic, we need. I don’t know what we do with three more rookies though….
If we keep both 1st rd picks, our 2nd rounder is not going to have much of a chance.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 23, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Terrence is a great player
Great attitude, great effort, great athleticism/defense and his shooting is much improved. Offensively, his tendency to get over-excited is a problem, he sometimes takes bad/unadvised shots and makes bad passes because he gets carried away with the moment. He’s a positive attitude to have in the locker room, too, which never hurts, and he gets along with Garcia well.
I’m a UL fan too, so obviously take it with a grain of salt, but he’s been playing out of his mind in the last 6 games, just look at his stats.
by bartenpa on Jan 23, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way - let me be the first to give a nod to Tyler Hansbrough
If he drops to Houston’s pick I think he needs serious consideration. The guy will be North Carolina’s all-time leading scorer. I fail to believe he is Mark Madsen with a southern twang.
by betweentheeyes on Jan 24, 2009 5:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would not be against taking him
with the Houston pick. D.Songaila? Poor man’s D.Lee? Could be a chance worth taking late in the 1st round.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 24, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In a lot of ways 214
I think the 2nd 1st rounder is more interesting than the first. That could lead the team to all kinds of directions with that pick. That will be an indictment on his ability to get as much talent out of a potentially weak draft as possible. (Drafting a guy who could come over in a few years would work too.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 24, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep yep
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 24, 2009 5:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bigs I'd rather draft over Tyler Hansbrough
Taj Gibson, Jeff Pendergraph, Jerome Jordan, Tyler Hansbrough’s mom, Tyler Hansbrough’s grandmother….
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you have felt the same way about Charles Oakley?
Would you have felt the same way about David Lee?
I don’t know if Hansbrough is NBA material or not. I do know that he is a tough sombitch, and we don’t have a lot of that on our roster. I’m not giving him a ringing endorsement, but I would not be pissed if we selected him.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 24, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No offense, but...
Charles Oakley and Tyler Hansbrough should not be mentioned in the same sentence. One is a beast. One is a skinny (for the NBA) 6’9" guy with no hops. He’s not Madsen, but he’s also not David Lee.
David Lee is athletic. Hansbrough is not.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My point is -
I don’t think that Lee or Oakley were seen as particularly athletic when they came out of college.
And no offense is taken, as I understand that my opinion is just that – my opinion. No matter how much research and passion that you put into your player prognostications, the bottom line is that nobody knows. And if that were otherwise, guys like Olowokandi, JB Carroll, Chris Washburn, Kwame Brown (I could go on…) would not have been high lottery picks.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 24, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree no one knows
I think people were misdirected by Lee’s skin color, because the guy is athletic, and I badly wanted the Kings to draft him over Garcia. Oakley was big and strong for his position. If Hansbrough were 6’10" or 6’11" with the same skills I would be more excited about his prospects. But at 6’9" I just don’t think he’s a first rounder. He’ll probably have a long career in the NBA as a pest/hustle guy off the bench, but I’d rather the Kings went with someone more athletic if they’re going to go big in the late first/early second.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 6:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle Singler
Is similar to Tyler as well. He may drop to the Houston pick. Just another name to throw out there. Replacing Salmons??
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Jan 24, 2009 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Dunleavy has a jumper and is anything but hard nosed
Eddy Najera, Shelden Williams, Tyrone Hill. We can list non starters who make a difference. But really, he is not enough of a gamble to put him in the lottery. He does has smarts, hustle and some skills. And yes, the Kings already have a big man who is unathletic but has skills.
So many of the late first round/early second round have promise but are long shots. We talk of the exceptions not the rule. Tyler Hansbrough or Francisco Garcia? Will he fail like a Heisman Quaterback? Probably. The scouts aren’t always right, they are often wrong, but he is a conundrum that is fun to postulate about.
by betweentheeyes on Jan 24, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tougher Mike Dunleavy III
I agree on the toughness part and Singler’s a good rebounder. But offensively their games are remarkably similar.
And yeah, I see Hansbrough in the Najera mode, and he’ll have a long career. I just don’t know that that’s what the Kings need at this point.
by nbrans on Jan 24, 2009 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Robbie Hummel
a great role player at the NBA level. Will hit 3s all day and will hustle all night. No team in the country plays smothering D the way that undersized Purdue team does.
We could use some of that mentality. He’s a A student though and will probably stay in school another year.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 25, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
luke harangody
Joe Klein? Joe Pryzbilla?
by betweentheeyes on Jan 26, 2009 12:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Joe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 26, 2009 6:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll have to change my avatar
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 26, 2009 7:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a very young you?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 26, 2009 8:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Arkansas Joe
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Jan 26, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my lord section
I’m so very sorry.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 26, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly because it totally flew over my head
Cuz I’m just that big of an idiot. Never forget. ;)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 26, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And again I will play Devil's advocate
Tougher, a better rebounder, and a remarkably similar offensive game to a guy whose averages were 19/5/3.5 last year on 47.5% FG and 42.5% 3PT.
I’ll take that from late first rounder.
(For the record, I don’t think Singler will be nearly as good as a tougher, better rebounding Mike Dunleavy Jr. would be. Role player on a good team is the best that he can hope for, in my opinion.)
by furious.d on Jan 28, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
excuse the grammatical typos
“does has” – geez.
by betweentheeyes on Jan 24, 2009 6:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Blake Griffen & Okl Monday Night
ESPN 6pm
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 25, 2009 11:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I haven't had the time to read through the comments on this fully
But I don’t completely agree. Travis Outlaw didn’t even play much high school basketball, couldn’t dribble, and is now a very good player in the league. Rudy Gay was said to have no heart, and he’s become a great young player.
Sometimes, the draft defies explanation.
The most common misconception about Harden is that he’s unathletic like Roy. Roy has a 40.5’’ vertical leap. He is extremely athletic.
by Cablinasian on Jan 29, 2009 5:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember Brandon Roy being un athletic
Everything I remember about him (When UDub got the #1 seed) was that he was playing out of position for Romar.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Jan 29, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Completely agree about Roy
And I also agree that Outlaw doesn’t quite fit what I posted, although he’s not necessarily the best test case because there’s no more drafting high schoolers anymore. There’s a little more certainty in the draft process when you’re looking at college frosh and international players.Not complete certain, but it’s a different ballgame.
by nbrans on Jan 29, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Outlaw has been a strangely mixed bag
future all-star one game here or there and LMA light the rest of the time
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Jan 29, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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