Progress In, or Through, Poor Form

by Ziller on Jan 3, 2009 6:40 AM PST in Recaps Comment 29 comments

Beno Udrih played worse than he ever had, and Francisco Garcia is still struggling with his shot. Nothing that happened Friday night changed either of those things. We expect Garcia will break out at some point in the near future -- he's a good shooter. Beno is just further cementing his role as local whipping boy. Having trouble staying in front of Rodney Stuckey is expected. Two points in 20 minutes for a bad defender, though, is unacceptable.

But whatever, Beno's yesterday. John Salmons didn't shoot well, and Kevin Martin really didn't shoot well. The pair combined for 41 points on 42 shooting possessions. Not beautiful ... you need more efficiency there. But they (and Martin in particular) found a way to score. Brad Miller found a way to score, and turned out a second straight STRONG game. That's the key here: Martin and Salmons need to coexist on offense (success), and Miller needs to play well (success). If those things happen, the team should be in the game. And with less than 10 seconds left, the Kings had about a dream to go.

Isn't that shocking? Your usual sixth man, currently starting, is in a slump and was ineffective on offense. Your starting power forward is a role player who can stick open shots or finish, but needs to be wiiiide open and rarely scores so much as eight points in a game. Your starting point guard had no freaking points and probably gave up 15 to the opponent in 20 minutes of work. And you're in the game against a good team in the closing seconds. That's the difference between last night and two weeks ago: Sacramento can (almost) overcome debilitating weakness at two key positions.

One thing has changed between two weeks ago and last night. And again: he had a rough night shooting. But he still had 20 points and almost scratched the 1.0 point per shot threshold thanks to perfect foul shooting. Having that sort of scoring allowance makes up for a lot of pain.

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I

try not to be too pessimistic when it comes to the teams I support, but the Beno signing is REALLY starting to get to me. I hope he turns it around.

They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

by what_the_crap on Jan 3, 2009 6:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

The officiating was as bad as Beno last night

I enjoyed seeing Martin get a technical. Is that the first of his career? He seemed the best person to drive home the lopsided officiating point last night since he so rarely bitches and usually gets a lot of calls from the refs.

But what a treat to see no 3 point shots made. Whew!

Miller is playing like GP told him he’d trade him to a contender if he played with a little heart.

The offense in general looks clunky. Not a lot of off ball movement. Is this the effect of the zipper offense?

And Garcia, I’ve been out of the country for awhile so can someone please tell me what the hell happened to Garcia?

by BrooklynFan on Jan 3, 2009 7:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Garcia doesn't have it yet

His shot hasn’t fallen, so he’s alternately being too aggressive trying to find his shot or not being remotely aggressive. He undulates between Martin and Moore in terms of offensive role. So weird.

He’ll get it back, though. Just a matter of time … like you’d hope with regard to Beno’s shot.

by Ziller on Jan 3, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s encouraging that we stayed close even though our shots were so poor. The thing that kept us in game was Free Throws.

The stats are very interesting:

FG%
Pistons: 48.8%
Kings: 33.7% (sucks!)

FT%
Pistons: 18/24 75%
Kings: 33-34 97,1% (wow!)

Also… let’s not forger that their 2 best players were out (Rip, Rasheed).

by ZenBaller on Jan 3, 2009 8:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I didn’t emphasize that enough: Martin’s scoring is so consistent precisely because he draws fouls. Such a boon.

by Ziller on Jan 3, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice perspective TZ

I realize Beno is the current site whipping boy, but he deserves most of it.

I’m ok with him missing shots, concerning for me is the lack of confidence and poor decision making. Hopefully he finds his game soon, he doesn’t have to be an all-star PG for us, but consistent shooting, good team defense, even if he’s slow afoot individually, and leading the offense consistently we do need.

And Cisco needs to pick up the challenge defensively for this team. Kenny Natt needs to challenge him to shut people down and give him opportunities to do so. We need more than Salmons that play good 1 on 1 defense.

The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.

by ForThree on Jan 3, 2009 9:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Beno can't win for losing

With Martin’s return his role changed again. Before Natt praised his ability to run the pick & roll. Now, he brings the ball down, hands it to Brad and never sees it again except for a couple of back door cut where he didn’t finish.

Salmon’s pounds the ball, Martin dribble drives, and Cisco jacks them up even when he’s covered. Why do we need a PG, if Beno gives up the ball he’ll probably never see it again. Oh yes, to play defense. We put every guy on the court on Stuckey and no one stopped him, and especially our second line of defense, our bigs who stood around and watched his layup drill practice.

The entire offense has changed AGAIN, and until he figures out or someone tells him what his role is, let’s just be thankful his turnovers are down.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Jan 3, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Beno's role should be spot up shooter in this offense

unfortunately, since no one is double teamed, shooters don’t help us much. Here’s the problem with our offense, there is no one, except maybe Martin once he gets healthy, that the defense does anything except play straight up for.

My big problem with Lttg’s constant rant that we need more shooters is, that’s pretty much the last thing we need. More shooters would still stand around like our current ones, guarded. You need shooters when other guys on the team are good enough, the defense Must take them into account and double-team. There is no one like that on this team right now. Double-teams mean open jump shots with good ball movement.

So what happens? we run our sets and the other team plays us straight-up. Occasionally, we get something pretty, backdoor cut, layup, etc, most of the time we end up trying to beat someone one-on-one. The only guy good at that is Salmons, which is why he’s shooting about 50%. But other teams know Salmons alone won’t beat them, so they play straight up and Salmons gets his 20 because that’s what’s there to get. Once K-Mart gets back up to speed, assuming Cisco finds his shot, assuming Salmons keep playing at a high level & Brad pays attention, our offense will go back to being pretty dangerous. Beno will look better then because there are enough other dangerous options that we force adjustments by the defense and he’ll get more open shots.

I agree some of this isn’t Beno’s fault, its just distressing to see how limited he has turned out to be so far. I’d like Beno to be oe of those guys that can beat his main fairly often for at least a slight advantage. We’ll see if he can get there.

Look at our starters: Brad, Mikki, Salmons, Cisco, Beno. That is a really bad offensive team (defensive also). Brad, you have to be out on his shot, I imagine most teams live with Brad’s ponderous drives to the hoop. Mikki is a complete non-factor unless you deliberately ignore him. Cisco hasn’t gotten going yet, Salmons is the one good offensive player. So this is what Beno has to work with? I’m talking myself into your side HighTops, that team sucks, maybe Beno will get better once we put a decent team around him.

The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.

by ForThree on Jan 3, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Take what the defense gives you, isn't that what Reynolds always says

Up until now we’ve had shooters that aren’t very good, especially our guards and especially from beyond the arc. So, I agree with you that we don’t need more shooters, just replace some of the ones we have with deadly 3pt shooters.

Our shooters have been so bad, that teams are collapsing into the paint and then running out to challenge our long shots. And, since we have no low post offense, they only have to protect from dribble penetration and wait until we start making our jump shots before they have to play us tight outside. Which we haven’t been doing until Martin came back. But, what the defense is giving us is jump shots because we can’t score in the paint with our bigs and can’t drive into the paint because they always have 4 guys with one foot in the paint to trap us.

Beno, Martin & Salmons need to drive the lane and kick out followed by several passes around the arc to find the open man, this should create open looks, but someone needs to start punishing the defense for not playing our 3pt shooters up tight. And, we need a big that can draw a double team, or at least run a decent pick and roll with the guards. We’re just too perdictable. They don’t have to guard our PF’s, Miller doesn’t roll or when he does he can’t finish, and once the ball is in Martin or Salmons hands they are going to shot it not pass it.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Jan 4, 2009 2:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This is where we disagree

Kevin Martin 37.8% career 3pt% (below career average so far)
Cisco 35.8% career 3pt% (bad this year so far)
John Salmons 41.2% 3pt% this year, and I am pretty sure he was right near 40% last year
Beno 35.1% career 3pt% (though terrible this year)

Kevin & Cisco get a pass on bad shooting so far because of injury. For Beno, no doubt he needs to move to the mean of his career, 25% 3pt shooting isn’t going to get it done.

I agree with you, we need big players that are relevant offensively; hopefully they are on the roster and just need time. I disagree that shooting is the problem. If all we had to do is throw it in the post, wait for the double team and rotate to the open man, our cast of shooters would be great.

The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.

by ForThree on Jan 4, 2009 7:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Martin & Cisco haven't been playing

Let’s look at the shooter that have been playing.
BJax – 21 of 84 for .250
Beno- 15 or 57 for .263
Greene- 12 of 38 for .316
Douby- 8 of 35 for .229
that 56 or 214 for .262 out of a total of 581 total 3pt shots

Salmons is only player over .400 and if you take his 3pt shooting away the team average drops to .308

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Jan 4, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Cisco & Martin are only 38 out of 111 or .342

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Jan 4, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

An interesting follow up

Is to see how the team shoots the 3 for the whole month of January.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jan 4, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Anybody else tired of seeing

the “starters” get down by 10-15 only to have the rookies play the team back into the game then go back to the bench when it gets close?

is Natt blind or just retarded?

by shock&hawes on Jan 3, 2009 10:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Eh well right now Speed is coming from the bench.

So thats a huge boost of productivity and JT has been consistently productive in his limited minutes, although his are usually limited because of careless fouls/turnovers. If JT could stay on the court for starter-type minutes he would end up rebounding at a Dwight Howard-like pace.

There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru

by moproblemz on Jan 3, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah but its really hard to deny how much better the team looks with bb and jt on the floor. It’s not like we are making the playoffs with the vets. Give them starter minutes.

by shock&hawes on Jan 3, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

JT has been a lot better the last two games

than the 5 games before that. If JT keeps building on his baby steps the last couple games, he’ll get more minutes.

I really don’t think Natt is saying “I need to get Mikki 30 minutes a night”. Instead, he’s giving JT the minutes he’s ready for, and as he proves he’s ready for more, he’ll get them and Mikki’s minutes will go away.

Remember, the important thing is JT gets better, that’s not the same as getting a ton of minutes. He’ll get there, he’s already showing signs of the competitiveness he’s going to need for the league.

The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.

by ForThree on Jan 3, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

JT has been more productive the last two games

because he is playing more minutes with Miller and less with Moore. When JT plays with Moore the other team clogs the lane because they want Moore to shoot a jumper therefore if JT gets the ball in the post he is double teamed. When JT and Miller play together there is better spacing on the floor allowing JT to be more effective. The key will be when Spencer returns will the staff go back to playing Moore with JT and Miller and Hawes? If they do I think you will see JT production decline. If Moore is traded and Hawes takes Millers minutes I think JT and Hawes will complement each other.

by Beagle12 on Jan 3, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This year's draft pick is going to be very interesting

Cuz truthfully, if the Kings finish in the top 3, there is going to be 2nd guessing no matter whom the Kings take. (CC is perfect proof of this.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jan 3, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The perception is going to keep changing up until June

Personally, I thought for sure we needed to go for a PG and I was all for Rubio but now it seems he’s going to skip the draft and wait until ‘10. I’ve also been watching some videos of some of the other players and I’m really impressed by Monroe and Harden. It’s going to be hard to decide if we draft by need or we go for the best player available. Hey, at least we are always gonna have something to talk about for the rest of the season

by eduardo_m7 on Jan 3, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good thing, Pot

You haven’t second-guessed anyone in your 15,000-plus posts on this site.

"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."

by coolcatreportdotcom on Jan 3, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I hit 15000?

Damn, I didn’t realize I hit that mark. I gotta slow down….

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jan 3, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ya think? We here don't agree on anything

but the surprising thing to me is the almost universal love here for JT (especially after the 4 thread draft night here) and our patience (CCRDC notwithstanding) with GP.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Jan 3, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

JT’s best complimentary big right now is Miller, good point.

The more you guys work the trade machine, the happier I am GP is our GM.

by ForThree on Jan 3, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1 for positive spin and legit point ForThree

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Jan 3, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Let me get this straight

You mean Kevin Martin, the Kings best player, matters the most, and gives the best chance for the Kings to win on a nightly basis? I’m shocked I tell you.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jan 3, 2009 10:35 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

I

also heard Kobe makes the Lakers a better team ….. I think it’s just rumors though.

They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

by what_the_crap on Jan 3, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Probably

But I’m sure it’s only a rumor.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on

by pookeyguru on Jan 3, 2009 10:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs