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Is Cisco to Blame?

The Gymnic web site doesn’t say anything about their balls being burst-resistant. All I could find was:

The Gymnic Ball Line is known throughout the world for its exceptional quality and durability.

and

The manufacturer is not liable for any damage caused by wrong ball usage.

It is also says on the web site not to inflate with an air compressor. Why? Probably because an air compressor can result in over-inflation and the ball is NOT burst-resistant!

I have been thinking about this Cisco thing, and obviously it is very unfortunate and devastating for Cisco. It certainly hurts the team and fans. But I am starting to conclude that some of the blame has to fall to the user, and the Kings training staff.

Let’s be generous and suppose ball takes up 750 pounds of weight. Cisco weighs around 200, and he has a total of 180 pounds of weight in his hands. So you say, well, he is well within the limits and should be OK? Not necessarily.

Simple physics tells us that F = M*A : Force = Mass x Acceleration. Is a ball more likely to burst is you are lying flat and still with said dumbbells, or if you are bouncing up and down (acceleration) on the ball? Obviously the latter.

I am not saying he was bouncing, I wasn't there, but if the user is shifting his weight, getting into proper position with weights that heavy, he is adding to the force put onto the ball. Done repeatedly the material will stretch until there is no more give.

These exercise balls are designed for CORE (abs, lower back, hip flexor area) work. Your core muscles flex to keep your body stable throughout the exercises. But 90 lbs. of dumbbell in each hand is too much weight! Common sense, and safety precautions would dictate that. Core work is done with no weights, or lighter weights starting at 5 lbs, up to 30 to 40 pounds max, even for real fit, strong athletes.

I have spent a lot of time in the gym, and I have never seen a guy with dumbbells that heavy combined with an exercise ball. He was doing a chest exercise. The abdominal muscles acts as stabilizers and contract isometrically when lying on a regular bench to support this movement. There was really NO reason to be lying on a ball!

(Not to get too technical, but I think he would have been better off doing chest flys with a lesser weight than chest presses.  The range of motion forces the core muscles to work more.) 

Assigning blame at this point is irrelevant at this point as it effects the team.  Cisco is sidelined at least four months, he will be sorely missed, and that is that.  And certainly I don't want to kick a guy when he is down.  I do think it is interesting to speculate from a liability perspective, though.  Who is more at fault, the user or the manufacturer? Was there negligence on the part of the user, or was the ball poorly constructed with inadequate warnings?  Questions best left for judges to answer, I suppose.  I will be shocked if the Kings do not pursue legal action in the very near future. 



(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Interesting assertations

but I am too lazy to research myself. What are your qualifications to make them, Doctor? Physicist? Strength and conditioning coach? Guy who hangs out at the Gym?
Not saying that you aren’t qualified , but would take your points better if you were, otherwise I gotta toss it in the crap basket.

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 10:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Your reply belongs in a crap basket.

My assertions, not assertations, are based on common sense. I feel bad for Cisco, he’s one of my favorite players on the team. But I think he, and the trainers, could have used better judgement. That’s all. 180 pounds of dumbbells on an exercise ball? Burst-resistant or not, what’s the point? Just not a smart idea. You don’t have to be a doctor or physicists to reach this conclusion. I have worked as a personal trainer, but that doesn’t qualify me to speak definitively on exercise balls. There’s normal precautions and safety measures anyone should take in the gym, regardless of their credentials.

Again, I am not trying kick Cisco when he’s down. I think the question of fault is interesting to raise as it pertains to the inevitable lawsuit.

by bench_blob on Oct 13, 2009 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

Your ASSertions seemed to be statements of fact based on an expertise. I agree from a lawsuit perspective there are many interesting questions; Did they go outside the designed use of the ball? Did the Kings keep it properly inflated? Did the ball come with a disclaimor, etc. So if I reread your post and assume it was me that was edgy and not you,,,then I’m good with it.
Feel free to correct any spelling errors,, but damn I was sure that was a word…Maybe it was when I was a kid and has gone out of use. Growing old is a bitch.

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

who cares if he's to blame?

I really didn’t read this, I just really don’t care if it’s his fault or not he’s hurt and now Evans might not play the PG because of it…that’s all i care about

by shadowchicken on Oct 13, 2009 1:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Booooo.

First up, you weren’t there watching the workout so you are assuming way too much. Secondly, I sold exercise balls like this for years and never had a customer come back with a burst ball, sure a leaky ball or a dog ate my ball, but never a burst ball. When the ball is used for bench press or flies, it works for both core and for strengthening small muscle fiber and stabilizer muscles in the wrist, elbow and shoulder. The ball also allows the user to get into a more natural, supported work-out position than a conventional incline or flat bench as long as it doesn’t pop and send the user sprawling to the floor.

If Franny was working as a dock worker who did nothing but form lift then a standard bench of fly is just fine. Where the ball comes into play for a professional athlete is in its strengthening and stabilization of muscles that are often used at full extension and during full contact. I applaud Garcia for putting in the time and effort to refine his body- not just for aesthetics sake but for function in the fast paced, over sized world of the NBA.

Shit happens- the only way I pass blame is if the Kings didn’t pay for “commercial quality” balls or routinely switch out balls to maintain the integrity of the product. Since I have no evidence that these precautions weren’t taken then I must concluded from what I know, that this is just a case of horrible luck.

FYI, the ball is also prescribed by MDs to pregnant women as a way to induce labor around due dates. Expected mothers are told to sit on the ball and bounce up and down. Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 13, 2009 1:43 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

First of all

Blob provided an additional thought with some pretty good reason. Second of all, you sold these for years? That’s sad. Sorry. And third, pregnant women don’t usually weigh 300-400+ pounds (including any non-baby weights) and they typically don’t “bounce” on the ball with 90+ pound weights in their hands.

Don't hate, I'm a realist!

by Sammyp831 on Oct 13, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

a 400 pound prego with 90lb weights is 580…Cisco with ‘em is 365. And isn’t bouncing on the balls how the got Prego in the firsat place?

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fat girls don't get pregnant?

Wow, you must not understand the US welfare system.

Blaming a player for working out in a totally acceptable way with out knowledge of any malfeasance seems pretty irrational.

Yes, I sold high end fitness equipment for nearly seven years and yes, fitness balls were an accessory to that equipment. That job paid for my first house, undergrad and law school for my wife. Now, because I sold exercise balls for 7 years, I don’t work, I stay at home with my two boys…while you go to work everyday.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 13, 2009 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

When I grow up I want to be just like you JJ...

…. a successful house-wifehusband.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No more blue ball!

That has to make a lot of the King much happier! Man those blue balls are awful!

by MustangMBS on Oct 13, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you're alive circa my 40th b-day to make me feel better

Can I assume you’ll be around 10 more years or has God not deemed your time up yet?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is of course I meant to say

Has God deemed your time up yet^

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First

I believe we are in sink on God, we have dismissed 1 more Diety than most.
I need to live to 103 to set a family record, thats my goal, my body is in constant disagreement.
You have 43 more years of me crapping on you and then I’m out…I may stay around longer if Akyis is still here to pis off.

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

LOL

That’s so funny I don’t even know to where to begin. Well played, sir.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

GODDAMMIT YOU SPELLED MY FAKE NAME WRONG!!!!

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 15, 2009 5:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

thought the rule was K after Y except after A. If it pissed you off, remember, you have 40 years of it left.

by ElRonToro on Oct 15, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant JJ!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't care less about where to

sling the blame. There’s an exeercise that is overdone.

But…my first thought was, “Wow. 90-lb dumbbells on an exercise ball? Who didn’t think that was dangerous?”

Jes sayin’

Lower their expectations and rise to met them

by left hand on Oct 13, 2009 2:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

wow, when I sent in my check and became a member of StR, they told me specifically, there would be NO PHYSICS

simple or otherwise

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Oct 13, 2009 4:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Dude

They said no physical.

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Ha

Recd.

Victory is tasty.

by iashwash on Oct 13, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You sure they didn't say no rubber gloves?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blame Cisco?

For following the exercise required by the Kings? That is like blaming the Doc for your hemorrhoids. How are those doing btw?

by MustangMBS on Oct 13, 2009 4:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I was told that there would be no math

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 13, 2009 6:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I was promised...

..single women with low self esteem if I joined.

As for the Cisco thing I would imagine he is not the only athlete to be in that spot. He just got the unlucky number this time. His fault or not it sucks and figure out what plan B is now.

by Hilton on Oct 13, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry.

As the StR token female, I have to let you down and confess that not only do I really like myself, but I’m married.

Try here.

The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 14, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LPA

Doesn’t have low self esteem, but she’ll help worsen yours. :)

What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?

by otis29 on Oct 15, 2009 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only if you can't spell.

The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 15, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its a symptom of our society

always looking to place the blame somewhere.

accidents are by definition . . . .

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 9:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn't that always a given?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 14, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was the second Physio-ball

on the grassy knoll.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 14, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Are you seriously blaming the victim?

This was an accident, and not foreseeable in any way.

It’s not like he was auditioning for Jackass or something.

The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 14, 2009 5:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Disagree.

The accident was totally avoidable.

The benefit of the exercise did not outweigh the risk. It doesn’t make sense to take two 90 pound dumbbells, one in each hand, and drop yourself onto a weight ball. Sorry, but it was stupid! If you saw a guy in the gym doing this, you would think he was asking for trouble.

And I don’t care if the ball was supposedly burst-resistant, or not, there’s better ways to work your core.

As far as blame, I think it is interesting question to raise only because a judge is going to have to answer it when the Kings sue the manufacturer.

by bench_blob on Oct 14, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right

And C-Webb’s knee injury was his fault, because the human knee was not built to withstand all of that running and jumping up and down and stuff.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 14, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

All accidents are avoidable.

Just stay at home wrapped in bubble wrap.

How many times do you suppose this exact exercise was done by various professional athletes under the direction of trainers over the course of the past ten years? Thousands?

How many of those instances resulted in this type of injury? One?

If thousands of people ride a roller coaster and then one day one of the cars loses a wheel and the resulting accident injures the person in the front of the car, are you going to blame the person who got injured because that person could have avoided the accident by not riding the roller coaster?

Because that’s what you’re doing here. You’re blaming Cisco for getting hurt doing what was done thousands of times without injury.

And it doesn’t matter anyway. Any one of the Kings players could get injured driving, walking, eating, crossing the street. And while all of those accidents could be considered to be avoidable, they’re not foreseeable.

The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 14, 2009 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please....

If you went out and surveyed 100 personal trainers, or strength and conditioning coaches, and I am one, and asked them if it would be advisable to lift 180 pounds on top of an exercise ball, I strongly assert an overwhelming majority would say “Don’t do it.” It doesn’t make sense. Again, risk/reward analysis.

The range of motion on a solid, flat bench would be identical. There is really zero functional advantage to be gained working on a ball. It is true the core muscle are engaged more than on a regular bench, but there are countless safer core exercises an athlete could do.

Forget for a moment the integrity of the ball, I would not advise the exercise on the basis that getting yourself into that exercise position is risky with 90 pound weights in hand, in regards to loss of balance, and potential injury to the shoulder joint lowering and raising the weights. I am stronger than Cisco, and I wouldn’t do it!

Your argument and roller coaster analogy misses the mark, discounting risk analysis. We all make decisions every day involving risk, conscious or not. I walk across the street in my neighborhood because I live in a quite area with little traffic. I would not walk as casually across a freeway during rush hour and expect to be as safe. I’d ride a roller coaster at Six Flags with an impeccable track record. I’d probably stay off the rickety-looking piece of crap at a traveling circus operated by an ex-con.

When this case goes to court, the question that will be asked is “Did the injured party act in a reasonable and responsible way?” Or “Did the injured party act in a negligent way so as to put himself in a position of unnecessary risk?” These questions have be answered in the context of rate of similar incidents. If the defect rate is so low, almost nil, then what did the injured party do differently than other users to compromise his safety? I love Cisco, but I contend he was more than unlucky, he was unsafe.

by bench_blob on Oct 14, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is is still wrong to blame Cisco

I can give you that it may not seem like the brightest idea and that there are other ways, less risky, to build core strength. HOWEVER, if you get a job as a professional basketball player and your team tells you to work out with their guy and that guy puts you into a program IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT if that program is defective or the equipment they use is defective.

Cisco was doing what he had to do to be part of the team. He was doing his job. To blame him for this is flat wrong. I was trying to be funny, but dude you are so clearly wrong in your insistence that Cisco is to blame.

Let’s get past the accident part and talk about being a victim. Cisco is the victim here. If this was so clearly wrong to do then it wasn’t about an accident. It was about risky and unsafe practices that he should have never been required to do.

Say you are a construction worker told to work on scaffolding that seems unsafe even though it meets CalOSHA code requirements, but that you had seen dozen of guys working on and go ahead. Knowing that to refuse might cost you your job. Guess what, it collapses and you are hurt. Is that your fault? Should the company blame you? No! These are situations where somebody may be to blame, but not the worker who was doing what he had to do to feed his family. This was not his fault and blaming the victim only serves to make him a victim again.

If you want to blame somebody then blame the organization and strengthening coach. Not Cisco.

by MustangMBS on Oct 14, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, I get it now

You have a dog in this fight. If it turns out this was ok’d or recommended by one of the Kings trainers, that looks bad for people in your profession.

Much easier to blame Cisco, right?

What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?

by otis29 on Oct 15, 2009 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some interesting points....
If you went out and surveyed 100 personal trainers, or strength and conditioning coaches, and I am one, and asked them if it would be advisable to lift 180 pounds on top of an exercise ball, I strongly assert an overwhelming majority would say "Don’t do it." It doesn’t make sense. Again, risk/reward analysis

9 out of 10 doctors recommend crest whitening toothpaste for their patience. Throwing out mystical surveys is weak sauce. Personal trainers- especially ones that ply their trade in clients homes, rarely travel with a standard flat bench. Some trainers travel with dumbbells and exercise balls and use them for training. Exercise balls have become common in PT clinics, gyms, and homes as a viable option to a work out bench.

The range of motion on a solid, flat bench would be identical. There is really zero functional advantage to be gained working on a ball. It is true the core muscle are engaged more than on a regular bench, but there are countless safer core exercises an athlete could do.

Range of motion comment: Is their really no difference in range of motion between a flat bench and the incline position that would be used when leaning back against a ball? The ball provides for better ergonomics and body position. The ball forces core to stabilize but it also forces the muscles in use to stabilize as well- something that a standard bench also does but to a lesser extent due to the stationary nature of the apparatus.

When this case goes to court, the question that will be asked is "Did the injured party act in a reasonable and responsible way?" Or "Did the injured party act in a negligent way so as to put himself in a position of unnecessary risk?" These questions have be answered in the context of rate of similar incidents. If the defect rate is so low, almost nil, then what did the injured party do differently than other users to compromise his safety? I love Cisco, but I contend he was more than unlucky, he was unsafe.

I’m not a lawyer but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night (and with an attorney next to me). Unless there is an express written warning for this particular product that specifies the use of dumbbells is a hazard then I think the Kings/Garcia may have a case. Inserted in most packaging for exercise balls, is a workout chart that shows numerous positions that the ball can be used for- including different dumbbell workout positions. Also inserted with the packaging is a ball weight limit which includes both user and any additional weight. As long as the ball was used under the guide lines set forth in the packaging and the product was properly cared for and inspected regularly, the case is pretty cut and dry. Shit happens- products breaks, people get injured.

A treadmill goes 10 miles per hour- it has a safety cord that when properly attached should shut down the treadmill if removed- runner going 10 miles per hour falls off treadmill with safety devise attached, treadmill continues to run, causing injury to the user- treadmill company is at fault. Ball has weight limit of 700 lbs- user weight + dumbbell = 400 lbs., ball has been properly cared for and inspected- ball burst, ball manufacture is at fault.

I’ve wasted way too much time on this issue. I understand that you believe that you are coming from a position of knowledge on this subject. I just disagree with your position, reasoning and conclusion.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 15, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and thus destroying the accumulation of millions of dollars and the careers of liability/accident/injury attorneys who abuse the US Legal system

it makes perfect sense to warn everyone that coffee is hot

I’ve wasted way too much time on this issue. I understand that you believe that you are coming from a position of knowledge on this subject. I just disagree with your position, reasoning and conclusion.

that statement is rec’d.

puh-lease. Cisco should have had the ball tested by a team of experts and should have been properly warned of the risk involved. The fact that he did not sign a waiver of risk speaks volumes…
now, just shoot me (but test the bullets first)

by betweentheeyes on Oct 16, 2009 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So what's the weight limit, oh all knowing one?

I was a bit surprised at the 90 pounds in each hand because that’s a little out of my range – but then I remembered that Cisco is 6’7" and 200 lbs AND he’s a professional athlete.

There are better ways to work your core? Maybe you should apply for a job training professional athletes.

What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?

by otis29 on Oct 15, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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