The Importance of Post Effectiveness From Spencer Hawes
by Tom Ziller on Oct 13, 2009 10:09 AM PDT
in Commentary
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PrintJason Jones of The Bee has a story on Spencer Hawes's summer of weightlifting and the improvements the player himself feels around the basket. The key notes revolve not around some desire to become a single-minded post player, or to develop this move or that move, but that Hawes has been trying to get stronger, so that he can do what he wants to do around the rim. That's really, really key ...
... because Hawes already spends quite a bit of time around the rim: he's just not been particularly effective down there. As I detailed during the offseason, Hawes took 48% of his 2008-09 field goal attempts near the basket. In comparison, Jason Thompson took 53% of his FGAs near the hoop. Hawes's inside share was larger than guys like Amar'e Stoudemire, Tim Duncan and Al Horford -- players seen as post weapons.
The problem for Hawes was that he didn't finish as well as a 7-footer should. His inside shooting percentage was 58.7%, behind the smaller/greener Thompson, and closer to what you'd expect from a tweener forward than a center. Strength will help Hawes finish plays down there. And that will relieve pressure on Tyreke Evans and Kevin Martin on the perimeter.
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Hawesome!
I was talking with someone the other day about this. Spencer was touted as a low post scorer but hasn’t been great at it. Plus, he’s also played along the perimeter a little too much. If he’s able to be effective at the basket as well as along the perimeter (and essentially anywhere in between) then he’ll become even more important than he is now. We know he can stroke the three. We know he can work as a bit of a Miller-esque distributor from the high post. If he can add the post offense to his game that changes things a lot. If he’s matched against bigger centers like Oden and Dwight he can step away from the basket which opens up the paint for Tyreke, Kevin, or Jason. This means his defender backs off to protect the paint, which leaves Spence open from deep, or they stay on him allowing for an easier shot. For normal sized/smaller centers he can work them inside and score at will. Having a skilled center with the versatility to score anywhere on the floor is very promising
www.mancancook.net
Did it look like his strength training had any effect in pre-season so far?
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
NO!
See my comment below… I noticed NO difference in his physicality thus far.. However, we’ve only played 2 games, so its not a foregone conclusion yet-
Lucky you could watch the game against Portland
Was it online? We were trying to find a stream all night?
The future begins now...
Spence has had an ankle injury all preseason
Didn’t play at all the last game, played hurt the first game (and didn’t have a very good game, by all accounts).
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Oct 13, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Ankle Injury + Greg Oden = No real sign of improvement
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Oct 13, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Greg Oden playing against an injuried Hawes = No real sign of improvement
Greg Oden playing against the Kings front court = No real sign of improvement. I think we can all agree that 2 preseason games with a new coaching staff and new offensive & defensive schemes, doesn’t make a good measuring stick of the Kings performance.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I believe Greg Oden will be a monster if he's healthy
I don’t think what he did vs the Kings was a fluke. But, 2 pre-season games doesn’t prove that point very well either.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I'll believe it when I see it....
Jason Jones from the Bee is serving some serious “Kool-Aid” with this article….
I honestly hate to be a cynic, but 10 added pounds on a 7ft body isnt shit!….I honestly hope Spencer does improve his low post perfornce this year, but you gotta wake up pretty early in the morning to try and fool me on the “worth” of 10 pounds on a 7 footer…
Regardless, I hope Westphal does use him “inside” and “out” and that will make life alot easier for the other 4 guys on the floor with him…. We shall see-
If 10 added pounds on a 7 footer isn't shit...
….how much does shit weight?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
281 lbs
Give or take an ounce or two.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Yeah the God I don't believe in made me a little different
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
To quote Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs...
Wait a minute, wait a minute…is she that great big ol’ fat girl?
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
There are a lot of Gods you don't believe in
Which one of them made you a little different?
I’ve got my money on Zeus.
From the people who brought you Reggie Musselnatt.
by My Losing Season on Oct 13, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
the same as a pound of feathers
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Hopefully it doesn't have the same contents though....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Whoa.
I hope Westphal does use him "inside" and "out"
That’s nasty.
What's the past tense for "scam"? Is it "scrumped"?
Be interesting when he is healthy
See how he is when healthy. I think a lot of the season will depend how his season turns out.
i actually think Spence is more of a forward
Shock has the strength and the length to take on bigger centers more effectively on defense, if he would just learn how to move his feet and not his hands.
The versatility of Spencer could be even more effective against players at the 4 spot. He might actually be able to guard players like LMA better than players like Oden. And his inside abilities would stand out more when he shoots over shorter forwards like Griffin or West.
Shock is the one who need to be the center. They are only an inch different I height. Shock is the better rebounder. He is the one that needs to be at the rim.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 12:13 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I totally disagree
Spencer seems much bigger, with a much better frame for putting on weight and defending centers, where JT has the athleticism and a more slight frame that says PF to me.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
I don't agree with the frame issue but....
Thompson could easily add 50 lbs worth of muscle and be an NFL D-lineman. Hawes on the other hand is a skinny kid with a gut, that tells me 1) he is lazy in his free time and 2) will have issues adding weight to his chest and extremities.
Also, Thompson is a more fluid, raw athlete while Hawes is slightly more mechanical in his actions. Thompson will always be a better pure rebounder and better finisher do to his athleticism and strength. Hawes will be a better position defender and pure scorer do to his BB IQ and polish.
I think Hawes is a center who would have trouble with more athletic 4’s. I think Thompson is a 4 with plenty of size to play the 5 against most of the league.
Overall, I think the Kings have a 4/5 combo that totally complement each other and should only get better. The biggest difference I see in the two is that JT spent 4 years in college and graduated with a degree while Hawes is still walking around Washington as the big man on campus half the year. When Hawes makes the Kings his full time job, he will become the player we all hope he can be.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 13, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
because you have a great take jjham.
Have you seen both of them in person? because I haven’t, all I have to go on is TV. When I look at the two of them, the one that would be able to hold his position against traditional centers looks like Hawes, but I will revise my opinion based on your take.
I love everything you wrote after the first paragraph, perfect.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Hawes is bigger than he looks- a true 7 footer.
But Thompson is huge- flat out. To me, Thompson has Malone size- not the definition yet but the overal sive which really bodes well because he has the look of a player (like Malone) that isn’t going to miss a whole lot of games (knock on wood). When Thompson matched up against Dwight Howard you could really see the difference in muscle tone. Howard is built like a Greek god- broad shoulders, narrow hips and large short calf muscles. Thompson has the shoulders but is thicker through the hips and has large, long calf muscles. I think the calf muscles are really something to examine here.
Howard is obviously one of the games great leaper- possibly the greatest leaping big man we have ever seen. Thompson, like Malone has tree trunks for legs which could actually help in his minutes at the center position. I think that when Thompson learns defensive positioning, rebounding positioning and post positioning from a true post player like Truck Robinson he will become an unmovable force in the post because of his lower body strength. I like SAR but he was never known for his rebounding or defense- something young power players need help with in their transition to NBA.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
I like SAR because he knows how to be a NBA player better than Shawes or JT does
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I like him too but as a mentor and an offensive coach.
I think all the guys who played both great defense and offense made too much money as stars and would rather not waste their later years coaching : )
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
"shock could easily add 50 lbs worth of muscle"
wasn’t part of the problem in summer league that he put on too much weight? Didn’t he lose weight and feel much better going into training camp?
I'm not saying it's a great thing that he can bulk up.
Only that he has a natural ability to add mass- something that Hawes will have to wait until he’s 30 to do. Thompson will find the correct strength to weight to durability ratio, it will just take a season or two of tinkering.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
also i am not convinced Spencer should start
Although I know the attention Evans draws will get him more open looks at the rim as well.
The main problem with Spencer drifting to the 3 point line is that his ball-handling is not as good as other 3 point shooting big men like Dirk, Bargnani, or even our own Nocioni. I fear that Spence would not be able to drive past someone closing out on him without turning the ball over. If he can learn to dribble like a forward then that is the position he should play.
But if Shock starts at center, perhaps letting Noce start at the 4 will spread the offense a bit. It will also give us more depth at our weakest position. And maybe encourage Spencer to work harder on his game if he isn’t automatically starting. His motivation has been a big question mark this summer.
I would like to see a starting lineup of Shock, Noce, Casspi, Martin and Evans, and then the bench can be Spencer, May, Greene, Mason and Beno, with Brockman and Sergio to add depth.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 12:29 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
We'd be absolutely decimated defensively
by not starting Jt and Spence. Noc can play the 4 in spurts but I think it depends on the matchup
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 13, 2009 12:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i guess you are right
I am just bummed that we have no depth at center. And that Spencer is not really a center.
I don’t like discussing how we can change players. You can’t change players. They are people. People have to motivate themselves.
The job of a coach is teaching, for sure. But part of teaching is helping people find themselves, to realize their talents, and not to force people into arbitrary social roles.
I feel that the classical positions in basketball sometimes are a hindrance to player development. Sure, everyone can get better at something. But Spencer has a strength at shooting from the outside, and we shouldn’t ask him to stop that so that we can force him into a position that physically and maybe emotionally he just can’t do.
My point is that JT has the strength and the desire to play at the rim and D up the biggest guy on the other team, although every team is different. So why not let him?
Hawes is the forward, Thompson the center, in my opinion.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 12:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
its amazing how different people can watch the same thing
and disagree so completely. I disagree with everything you wrote. Writing off a 21 year old 7 footer for a guy two years older, who is shorter and more slight I don’t get.
There’s no reason to dismiss Spencer as a center, he just turned 21, and what I saw last year, he was plenty interested in banging inside and being a center.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Hawes is definitely going to develop physically
And JT is 2 and a half years older, but right now they are listed as being nearly the same size. Spence is 7 foot 245 lbs and Jason is 6 foot 11 inches and 250 lbs. So, being nearly equal, who do you think has a better game inside offensively and defensively, right now? Not 2 or 3 years from now.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 1:05 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Hawes is better
in every category except rebounding IMO. Defensively by just a hair, but a little better.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 13, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
i dont mean to be discouraging
Or to write Spencer off. I tend to be pessimistic. If he and the coaching staff say he is a “center” then that is what he should play.
The whole team is different this year, and everyone could end up playing better and being more motivated with a different coaching staff and a new team culture. Maybe Spencer can step up his rebounding and defense. But he is still gonna need a lot of help defending guys like Oden, Howard, Perkins, Shaq. My opinion is just that Thompson may do better, MAY do better, if he also improves on not getting touch fouls called, against centers who excel in pushing their own weight around inside.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 1:21 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Doesn't matter what you call them
They are the only 2 bigs we have…and they will guard whoever they match up best against that night, until 1 of them gets into the inevitable foul trouble.
by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Amen for common sense
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Totally offbase
Hawes took 136 3pt shoots over his first 144 games. After the Miller trade last year, Hawes had 4 games where he took 4 3pt shoots and shot over .500 all 4 games. He had 11 double digit rebound games during the last 25 games. He had 12 17pt+ games in the last 20. That means that by far the majority of his points came inside the 3pt line. And, by far his blocks per game, leads the team.
Whatever criteria your using to determine that Hawes isn’t a Center seems a little wacked to me. He leads the team in blocks & defensive rebounds & was one of the top scorers after the tradedeadline.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
im less concerned with Hawes offense
But as Ziller illustrated, Hawes usage inside is high, but his percentage of shots near the rim is what he struggles with.
What concerns me is that currently, Hawes has trouble finishing at the rim. As the tallest player on the team, he should lead the team in defensive rebounds. But he could be a much better rebounder.
I don’t see Hawes struggle with the center position on offense as the deal breaker for me. It is that he is a liability on defense, in the mold of Brad Miller. Sure, he can block a few shots. But blocks are a misleading statistic when judging good defense. When he faces another good young center like Oden he tends to be the weakest link on defense. And I’m not talking about the preseason.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 2:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
But, JT is a Center
You don’t seem to be using the same criteria when you judge JT. He doesn’t defensive rebound, he doesn’t block shots, he can’t stay out of foul trouble, he has no left hand, and he has almost no low post moves. His offensive rebounding and scoring come mostly for tip-ins and not from controlling the rebounding.
Spencer played Porland well last year after the preseason. He averaged 15 & 5 in the 1st two games and had 5 blocks in the 3rd game. All 3 games came before Christmas, and Spencer’s best performances happened after the tradedeadline when he became the starter. This year he was playing on a bad ankle.
I’m not one who likes to throw statistics around because there are usually too many factors involved, but if y0ur interested 82games.com has these numbers. Adjusted for 48 minutes, Hawes gave up 2.6pts more than he scored. So, based on his actual mpg he gave up less than 2 pts more than the pts he scored.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
who was Spencer losing points to in those games?
I don’t think Oden played in all 3.
I am not at a place where I can check 82games, but I will.
Can you tell offhand how well Spencer did versus Kendrick Perkins, Dwight Howard, Al Horford, in plus minus? Did he or Thompson do better?
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 3:38 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Who cares?
I know Oden didn’t play in those 3 games, and I have yet to figure out why it matters. (Maybe because it doesn’t.)
On the other hand, well shit, maybe not. Who cares?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
my point is that Spencer gets killed
By centers who play exclusively in the paint.
Also, if he is losing 2 points to Joel Pryzbilla, who doesn’t score, then what does that say about our young building block?
It tells me that he is outmatched by the majority of the true centers in the league. That is what I see when I watch Spencer. I know he gets his points and rebounds, and he is only 21, but I worry that he will be a a guy other centers look forward to playing against because its an easy night.
When was the last time Hawes definitively won a match-up battle with another center?
He has a lot of room to improve. But I think it is time to set realistic expectations on what Hawes is going to be for this team. Which so far is a skinny Troy Murphy.
There, I said it.
I hope he proves me wrong. But I am just trying to be objective.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 4:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
And
What do you expect to be able to do to remedy that point? Conjure up Greg Oden Jr? Build a Frankenstein Dwight Howard/Yao Ming with all the strength and skills?
It tells me that he is outmatched by the majority of the true centers in the league.
That’s right, because Przybilla sucks.
Sean May.
When was the last time Hawes definitively won a match-up battle with another center?
These are bad words. i should put you in Kings jail.
He has a lot of room to improve. But I think it is time to set realistic expectations on what Hawes is going to be for this team. Which so far is a skinny Troy Murphy.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
put me in jail then!
You made me giggle, btw.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 4:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Glad I coulda been o' service
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Your the one making the Statemen, you look up the games
and who the opponents were. Your the one with the opinion that he’s not a center, I think your the one who needs to prove it. Otherwise, it’s just your opinion and based on no proof at all. I already supplied the def reb, blk shot, and points scored by opponent centers. The fact that you don’t want to except them doesn’t make me believe that your right.
The 82games numbers I quoted where the opposing centers outscored Spenser by 2ppg wh\ere for the whole season. The fact that Spencer didn’t play against Oden means nothing. JT played against Oden and Oden scored 20/12 and fouled JT out of the game. But, you think JT is a center.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
If that doesn't prove JT's C brilliance right now HT
I’m not sure what does.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
hahaha ok ok
I’m sorry I was working outside and couldn’t be by a computer.
I didn’t say I didn’t accept the stats.
I concede Spencer is a the best option for us at center. I am just not super thrilled at that currently, because Spencer is a 21 year old on what was last year the worst team in the league, a team that consistently got destroyed and outmatched by opposing big men. Spencer has been touted as our future, and I worry about it. I’m sorry.
I worry that he is more fitted to the perimeter on offense and that he can’t guard anybody who weighs 5 pounds more than him. That he doesn’t work hard enough on conditioning, and that he will continue to get hurt and miss time. I worry that the Kings this year have undersized players at the center position except for Spencer, and that he has been given the starting spot by default, and I am just trying to see what our other options are. But I guess there are none currently.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 5:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If Spencer got the starting job by default,
Then I guess Tyreke got his job by default also.
Maybe we’re in bigger trouble than I thought.
Spencer was 19 his 1st year and started the year injured. His 2nd year, at least until the trade deadline, he had to play behind Miller or out of position as the PF. The fact that PW still plans to have him rotate between down low and out past the 3pt line is a testament to his versitility not an indictment of his Center skills.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Harsh judgement on a rookie HighTops.
Thompson played at Rider against inferior talent and then came into his rookie season an basically won a starting job. Before you can become a better rebounder, shot blocker, learn to stay out of foul trouble, develop a left hand or low post move; you have to learn NBA offenses and defenses, learn how to eat properly, travel, wake-up after back to back game 65 games into an NBA season, oh yeah…and play against the best athletes in the world. In short, you have to learn how to be an NBA player- year two and three is when you start to see development in most players and I would be shocked if JT didn’t address every single one of your concerns.
Hawes had the benefit of being a second year player. I personally see Thompson making a quicker adjustment to the NBA game than Hawes because like I said earlier in this thread, Hawes has yet to make this NBA thing his #1 priority, he is still living the college dream where Thompson has taken the plunge.
I expect JT to play this season with an NBA body, show some sibilance of a post move and left hand, rebound with the best of the NBA but I still expect the youthful exuberance that he showed last year to cause him to miss minutes with foul issues. Hopefully, playing minutes at the 5 will reduce his foul numbers- space seems to be an enemy to players like Thompson and playing players closer to the basket will reduce the fouls that he accumulates when quicker players attempt to go around him to the basket.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
I'm curious
How is Hawes going to school means he’s not committed to being a NBA player?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
see example 1a: Vince Carter
Not that graduating is a bad thing. But neither is winning in the playoffs.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 4:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What does VC going to a graduation at UNC the same day he has a playoff gamew ith Philly
have to do with Spencer? N….U….T…..H
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Muturity level Pook-
It’s great that he is getting his degree, I just see him as that guy who still wants to do his frat initiations as long as he doesn’t have a game that night. By his no show for summer league and his lack of conditioning coming into camp in both his rookie and sophomore campaigns I get the feeling that Hawes has yet to acknowledge that he is a “professional basketball player”.
It’s alright to be John Frank and retire to be a doctor, but when most players leave college for the NBA, they LEAVE COLLEGE. Hawes is one of the first players that I truly believe thinks that he left the college game too early because he still wants to be a college student. Most of these guys regret their decision to leave college because their games weren’t NBA ready (see Greene, Donté). Again, I don’t see Hawes making the mistakes that a player like Greené has made, I see a lack of commitment to his craft at this stage.
Maybe I’m wrong, I just really see an immature dude who needs to focus on the multi-million dollar job that he already has- not the political career that he will have when his career ends.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
You are wrong about the conditioning
In the combine measurements, Hawes had one of the highest percentage of body fat that year. In his second year he followed Shapio’s diet and workout regiment and lost a large percentage of his body fat. (I don’t remember the number, but I do remember him saying that he gave up fast food) . This year he worked out with Brockman, and lost more body fat while increasing his muscle mass.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I gotta say I agree with HT here JJ
It’s one thing to not go to Summer League. In a way, though, it made it seem pretty silly that Hawes didn’t go because that was the expectation. I wonder, even now, how much difference it would have made. I think it was more valuable for the Kings to see JT play C and Donte defend different positions.
On the other hand, I don’t think going to UW in a pretty liberal (aka snotty) city is going to make him any more committed to his politics than playing basketball in a pretty liberal city country town that has an itchy Republican finger.
I mean, going to college is just fine as far as I’m concerned. I don’t really see how that lacks commitment to a job myself. Then again, maybe I’m cynical about this too.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Plus if you guys watch those videos
Spencer’s parents are the ones who want him to continue with school in the offseason. Its not completely his choice. This was shown in one of those “Summertime with Spencer” videos.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
We're not talking value or potential
IMO, JT performed well his 1st year, but I stand by my evaluation when it comes to the Center Position. If he had anywhere near the jumping ability of Donte, I might call him a future NBA PF.
At Rider he obviously didn’t have to develp low post moves. He could play center using his size and athletic ability. That won’t cut it in the NBA. He’s not a great vertical leaper. 18% of his shots are Tips and he only has a 50% effiency rating on those. 18% of his shots were Dunks but 100% of those were assisted. So, mathamatically, he had zero dunks where he went up, got an offensive rebound, & then went up for a Dunk. 55% of his shots were Inside and he was very effient, shooting 66%, but 75% of all his inside shots were Assisted. This to me means, that he’s not dominating anyone in the post,
He’s going to be a very good player but I doubt that he will ever be a very good Center.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Hawes tries to out-finesse opponents at the rim.
He has made improvement in that area but he takes too many dribbles, allowing the defender to establish position and then tries to shoot around them rather than through them. This costs him both backets and foul shot opportunities.
He just needs to simplify, let it sink in that the inside game is different than the outside game. You need to put the damn ball up. This also costs the team many assist chances.
I have high hopes he will do this.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Totally agree with your assessment
but will you agree that the PG’s weren’t always getting him the ball where he could simply attack? I remember last year, Spenc racing ( if you can use that word to discribe him running) down the court and fighting for position in the paint. Only for the ball to stop at the top of the key, and then he had to give up position to avoid the 3 sec. call.
Whether it was his decision not to go back in low or whether it was the play called that forced him out of the paint, I don’t know. But, as recently as this week, PW stated that the offense calls for him to get the ball down low & if not, he will rotate out high. (my paraphrase not PW’s exact words)
I’m just thinking that if Hawes got the ball more often in the paint, then maybe he would play like you suggested. But, when he gets it outside the paint, he doesn’t have the game to back his man down & doesn’t have the handle to penetrate & attack.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I remember he'd often get one or two post up opportunities
early in the game and then nothing. Which was actually the one consistent thing about last season’s team. They’d start out moving the ball for the first 6-8 minutes and then nothing. They’d play some D for a while and then nothing. There just wasn’t the discipline or the accountability or leadership or whatever was missing to continue doing what needed to be done beyond the point where they got selfish and devolved into a pickup game.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Oct 15, 2009 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions
PG, you mean Beno
I would have to agree that there was a serious lack of transition game last year, but that is what happens when a SG without transition ball handling skills is given PG duties.
I think of the 4 & 5 as totally interchangable and dependent on whatever matchup works better for each player at that time
But, that’s me.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Great. Agreed.
Handling is everything when it comes to Spencer Hawes. Sure he can shoot the 3 but it only makes him a double threat. If he’s on the side at the 3 point line he’s either going to shoot or pass the ball. He can’t really threaten to blow by you since he doesn’t have the handle yet. That’s the key difference between him and Dirk or Bargnani (not that I’ve seen Bargnani blow by too many people, but he seems more mobile than Spence).
I really feel he should just work on his footwork down low.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
I don't know any centers that are a threat to drive to the rim from outside the 3pt line.
That goes for PF also.
His value is that he can play in the low post and shot from the outside. When he goes down low the opposing player has to stay with him. When he goes out deep, they have to follow. And, when he is playing the Pick & Roll his man can’t double up on the ballhandler and leave him with an open lane to the basket or an open 3pt shot.
Basketball is all about mismatches and matchups. Everyone wants Tyreke to improve his outside shooting, because then he becomes a double threat to shot or drive. What’s wrong with having a center who’s a double threat to score inside or outside?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Nothing's wrong with a center who's a double threat.
That being said – it’s very nice to have but it’s not what we really need. What the Kings need right now is a center who can score in the paint at will..or at least more often than not. Spencer isn’t that center yet.
My post was more in response to Ice_9ine’s Spencer should be a power forward suggestion. There are more than a few power forwards that are a threat to create their own shot from outside the 3pt line. Centers? Not so much. But is Spencer a pure definition of a Center? His game isn’t fully developed yet so I don’t think anyone can really say. I’d like to wait to see how much he has improved this season to really pass judgment.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
Is Spencer a pure definition of a Center?
That’s the whole crux of the discussion I’m having with Ice. If your definition is that a center must be able to hold his own and battle in the paint with the likes of Shaq & Howard, well than there are probably only about 6 centers in the NBA.
It’s been said that the 5 &4 on the Kings are interchangeable. But to me the 4 is a scorer who can rebound. The 4 needs a jumper which Hawes has, but the 4 also needs to be able to create his own dribble, attack the basket, & finish strong. Hawes neither has the handle or the speed, needed to be a 4 IMHO. He does have the good post moves with both hands, and the agility to rebound & block shots which are the traits I believe are needed by a center.
Has Hawes perfected the skills he needs to be a top 20 center? No, of course not. He’s had 20 games as a starter, and played half last season as a PF. Which is just as rediculous as trying to make JT a SF. Neither player benefited from those ill concieved experiments.
Hawes is our center and JT is our PF. Neither will ever win a wresling match against Howard, Oden, or any of the power centers in the league. That doesn’t mean that they can’t play them straight up with their skill. Not every great center was a manmonster.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
20 games a starter?
More like 59
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Interesting points
In some ways, IMHO I would say that together JT and Spence combined have all the skills of the Center and all the skills of the PF, but not independent of each other. Neither has all the required skills for their assigned position. However, what one lacks the other has…
JT has deficits in the typical PF skill area that Hawes has as Strenghts
JT has Center type Strengths that Hawes lacks.
Spence has deficits in the typical Center skill area that JT has as Strengths
Spence has PF type Strengths that JT lacks.
Yet they aren’t interchangeable. I guess between the two of them they may have the types of strengths we need so that together, I hope, they can get the job done.
Reke isn't completely perfect right now?
Shocking!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
that is another good point
Evans is a guard who is looking to score inside or drive and kick to the outside. Hawes has the 3rd or 4th best jumper on the team, and with Cisco out he needs to be useful on the perimeter. Not all the time, but enough.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 1:15 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It can be done.
Others have mentioned how poor of a shooter Derrick Rose was last year and we all know how much he improved by the time the playoffs came around.
At the pro-level, shooting specialist can be brought in at anytime. I think ’Reke will get his shot going sooner than we all think.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
seriously
Lets not call this something it isn’t. Hawes is not a low post defensive threat. Yes, the dude has had some blocks. but, adding 10 pounds of muscle isn’t going to make Oden, Howard, shaq add infinitum.. shiver in their high tops. I’m not saying he isn’t talented, because he obvoiusly is.. but to try and force an inside game that really isn’t there to begin with is just detrimental to the team.
That being said, 90 percent of defense is effort, and while Hawes will never be a beast, he can get smarter. His footwork, which is already one of his strengths, can still improve. But, Hawes will never be muscling it out down there, and the sooner we can realize that and adjust, the quicker we can move on to other areas of improvement.
that is exactly my point
Why create expectations that Hawes will never live up to?
He is very talented offensively, but his strengths and talents currently are not playing the inside game, on offense or defense. And I feel that particularly on defense I would rather see Thompson focus on the inside game. He has a little bit more strength, he started at center in college, and he has more potential to slow down the tougher centers in the league.
Spencer is talented but I don’t see his path as being a low post threat either. His strength is his versatility and his ability to be outside in the high post and perimeter.
Everything is situational though, and Spencer is smart enough to learn how to do multiple things.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 4:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
in addition...
When we were among the NBA’s elite, we didn’t have a center down low who was a true banger - and we had two All-Stars at the time in Miller and Divac. We had passing big man who helped facilitate an offense. Much like we did then, we should take what we have and create an offense that utilizes the value of those pieces we have - instead of expecting someone like Hawes to be a big low post presense. He’s 7 ft tall, he’ll grab boards and get shots close to the basket but that won’t be a beast down low. He’s not Oden, Howard or even Eddie Curry….JT will hopefully fill the low-post role and occassionally guard 5s like Webber did for us. That, along with our big man passing, was the advantage of frontcourt then. Based on the talents of Hawes and JT, that may our advantage now…
by WhentheKingswinyouwin! on Oct 13, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
amen!
Spencer Hawes the low-post beast is a mythical creature.
But Spencer Hawes the wily, offensively talented young 7 footer is a dream they may happen, if we stop wishing him to be something he is not.
I will say that Vlade did play well in the low-post as well as up high, and that the teams that had him before us used him on the block more that Adelman. He was not bad defensively. He played Shaq in his prime better than 95% of the other centers in the league. That is not something we can say about Hawes right now. Old Man Shaq will eat Hawes for brunch right now.
But the point is helping players diversify and play to their strengths. Hawes will score from the post and mix it up, but his talent is versatility.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 4:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Mid-range game?
I think your on to something with the Vlade comparison. When Divac was at his best it was switching between the post and the “high post”/elbow. Certainly Vlade hit some big threes for good measure but those were an added bonus. Hawes/Coaching staff need to utilize the mid-range or high post game that Hawes possesses- especially with the three guard set that they hope to install.
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I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
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i do think that is Hawes strength right now
And that he should build on that, as well as getting better around the basket.
But I sincerely worried about Spencer on defense, whereas Vlade was a little bit of a worry, especially against quicker guys when he got older.
But Hawes is 21! This might be the peak of his athleticism! And he can’t slow down Joel Pryzbilla!
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 5:29 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
JT played forward for 4 years at Rider
They ran three guards and two forwards. I don’t see him being that effective at center, and recall him saying he prefers the 4. Spence will be an average to below average NBA center. I don’t see sustained intensity needed to defend paint.
maybe it is all about expectations
I just think you guys are going way too far with your indictment of Spencer’s low post game/desire.
I’m going to go out on a limb and concede he’s never going to scare Dwight Howard, because…Dwight Howard is going to the Hall of Fame when he’s done. I don’t see how you can write off the possibility Spencer will be an above-average offensive player, solid decision maker, have one of the 10 highest basketball IQs for a center as well as a solid positional defender/defensive rebounder and reasonable help defender.
The tools are there to be a 8th-12th or so best center in the league eventually. Who knows if Spencer will get there.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
True. Anybody can improve beyond their perceived limitations.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
I applaud the critical approach taken in this thread
But it is bumming me out. Our inside guys suck! No wonder we were the worst team in the league.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
It is more than just talent
It is liking to go in and bang guys around. To be a good, really good Center you got to enjoy using that big body to put a hurtin’ on someone. You think Shaq doesn’t love it to push people around?
The thing is that no matter what Spencer doesn’t enjoy the contact. You can just tell by watching him. That means that defensively he is going to suck a lot.
JT on the other hand at least enjoys the contact and seems to like getting in there and banging around. Gets too many fouls, but at least he competes.
The thing is that to watch that it just looks like JT is the better Center option. Lanky Spencer looks like he should be out shooting a 3, not slamming home a dunk.
Wish Spence could be another Dirk
A 7’ 245 lb. Power Forward.
by MustangMBS on Oct 13, 2009 7:11 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't believe the Kings can be successful
Without Hawes and JT improving their games dramatically over the coming year. We have a back court that can score and one of them can play D :-) , but we need an inside presence to compliment our back court improvement. Either Hawes, who is in his 3rd season and should have his breakout season this year, or Thompson, who has the athletic ability to have a great year if he can put it all together needs to step up. I would love to see both players improve dramatically over last year. I think last year was somewhat of a waste. I don’t think Hawes or JT got the coaching they needed to become the great players we all think they can become. Neither Theus or Natt were teachers.. in fact I dont know what they were… certainly not very good coaches. I didn’t see much improvement from either player last year. If anything, I think near the end of the year they both regressed a bit. I am hoping now with a REAL NBA Coach, the 2 young bigs can get the proper training and learn a post game.
In Hawes, I’d like to see him develop a post game while retaining his perimeter game to keep defenses honest. If Hawes can draw the opposition’s big away from the basket, then Martin and Reke will have more room to work under the bucket. Hawes is a Legit 7 footer. He should be pulling down more rebounds and have the ability to defend his man in the post and defend the bucket. I understand if Hawes doesn’t get a lot of offensive boards when he is on the perimeter, but on defense he needs to step up. I hope that Hawes put on enough weight to keep from getting dislodged from his defensive position like last year. He got pushed around quite a bit last year, and it would be nice if he could become strong enough to do some pushing back.
I would like to see JT develop a drop step, or some signature move in the post. He is strong enough to score down low, but he always seems to be in a hurry and often throws up hasty shots. I would love to see him slow down and be a more reliable scorer. He is very good with both hands, and has a decent 10-15 foot jumper. I would like to see him really work on that jumper, and work on perhaps a baby jump hook around the rim. I guess I want him to become like Webber was. That is too much to ask, but if he can even be 50% of what Webber was it would be awesome.
I really would love to see both our post players develop this year, but it is imperative that ONE of them develops a post game so that teams can not just force the Kings into being a jump shooting team. With Garcia down, we don’t have as many top flight jump shooters as we used to. If we could have an inside/outside game, it would really help in the win column. We could do that if one of these young bigs has a big year.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
Yes, they both need to develop a few (very few) simple
‘Go To’ moves around the basket. Run those over and over again.
Guess what? Even if opponents know what you’re likely to do, if you execute it well enough it still works. I’d mention Carl Malone and many many others who had very little variety – only adlibbed when necessary – and put up great numbers.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's my list (not in order) of Current Starting NBA Centers that I'd rather have than Spencer
at this moment in time for this team as currently constituted.
1. Dwight Howard
2. Al Horford
3. Andris Biedrins
4. Andrew Bynum
5. Yao Ming
7. Al Jefferson
8. Brook Lopez
10. Greg Oden
That’s not too many. I also thought about including Emeka Okafor, but he is entering his prime and we basically have Emeka’s production in JT (with a lot worse defense though).
I’m really glad we have Spencer and think he has the intelligence and skills to someday become one of the better Centers in the league and a great offensive threat. Finishing more shots around the rim will help, and that will come with adding strength and possibly more post moves (Spencer has one of the best post-move repertoires in the league. If Dwight Howard had Spencer’s post moves, that would be the best player of all time), as well as experience. He’ll turn 22 this season. He’s the youngest starting Center in the NBA (27 days younger than Brook Lopez) and he’s already showing us how great he can become.
We had this argument a bit last year, especially around the trade deadline, about who we would rather keep, Spencer or JT. I would honestly want to keep Spencer. I know what I’m going to get from JT. His ceiling is in sight. Its a good ceiling, and we’ll love him, and he’ll be a legitimate Starting PF, but Spencer’s ceiling is ridiculous, and he’s definitely already surpassed the expectations a lot of us had for him when we drafted him (which from reading that draft thread, were not high at all).
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
If the Dubai berg had been closer to Sac
I would have jumped off it with bballblog.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
And looking back at the 2007 draft
The only players that I’d want more than Spencer from that draft, were drafted ahead of him.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
there are a few more i would that i would take right now
Including Kendrick Perkins, who actually can frighten Dwight Howard; Marc Gasol, who has a chip on his shoulder and the size to punish you; Tyson Chandler, who forces every shot a little bit higher when he can stay on the court; Tim Duncan depending on how he is used; Nene will probably be an all-star this year.
Amare will play center this year; Camby and Kaman are both better than Spencer, although they are getting older; Roy Hibbert may actually turn into a true beast; Joakim Noah is the same size as Spencer but plays with more energy; Andrew Bogut’s got similar talent but produces better more consistently. Mehmet Okur actually is a good role model for Spencer.
Other than a Kings fan, most people who follow basketball would pick any of those centers before Hawes, and possibly a few back-ups.
The upside to Hawes is his youth and upside. But right here and now I don’t think he is in the top half of centers.
by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 10:59 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Obviously you put more importance on brute strength than in skill.
So, since you brought up Shaq, let me point out this. The Kings played PHO twice after the trade deadline. On 3/29 Shaq had 24/9 against Hawes who had 20/10. On 4/03 Amare was out but Hawes had 22/10 against Shaq & Lopez. Shaq hat 11/6 and Lopez had 8/4.
You mentioned Camby & Kaman, but on 4/10 Hawes had 8/13 against Kaman who had 14/13. And, on 4/07 Hawes had 21/15 against the Lakers. Bynum didn’t play but Gasol had 26/12. To me that means Hawes was able to hold his own against Shaq, Kaman & Gasol. He may never make it into the WWE or MMA, but he’ll certainly work out as an NBA Center.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
"Other than a Kings fan..."
9ine, that cuts both ways. While there might be a tendency by some to overstate the effectiveness of their own players (section raises own hand), others are overly critical of that player’s flaws.
Your Kaman comment is a perfect example. The Chris Kaman of 2007-08 was better than Hawes, but not the Kaman that has played the other five years in the NBA. You even give Roy Hibbert the nod solely on beast potential (note- Hibbert is actually older than Hawes).
I don’t know what we have in Hawes – I am hoping for the best.
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