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What We See and What We're Shown

I've mentioned here previously that I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado.  For me, this means I'm somewhat removed from much of the day-to-day access to the Kings other than what I can garner online.  Luckily, we live in an age where technology allows access that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.  I'm planning on getting League Pass this year, meaning I'll be able to watch a good number of games for the first time since I moved away from Sacramento 10 years ago.

Because of this, I feel like I've thrust myself into the role of championing the balance between looking at stats and watching games.  I look at the boxscore, but I realize it doesn't tell me the whole story.  That's what drew me to SactownRoyalty in the first place.  It was great to interact with fans who watched a lot of games and shared those insights.  At the same time, it's great to have a segment of the group here who don't watch many games, but follow the team and watch trends and provide another kind of analysis.

The debate around basketball metrics often centers around whether they are good or bad, right or wrong, valid or false.  The problem is that it can't be black and white.  A stat, even a tweaked and manipulated one, tells us something.  We then can compare it to the games we see, and draw a conclusion.  But just as stats have shown us that you don't get the full picture just by watching a game, you also cannot get the full picture simply from stats. 

The rest of the article will look at that balance in reference to recent events, and I'll even tie it into the Kings again.  If you are tired of this discussion, this article ain't going to be your thang.  Consider yourself warned.

Star-divide

In case you haven't followed it, there has been a recent eruption in this debate.  It started with some good discussions over at TrueHoop.  Henry Abbott had a lengthy interview with Wayne Winston, who up until recently was the stat guru for Mark Cuban and the Mavericks.  If you enjoy reading about the statistician's role in the modern NBA landscape, there are some interesting bits scattered throughout.

The issue came up when Winston questioned Kevin Durant.  For all of Durant's amazing abilities, there is a controversy.  He even goes so far as to say:

"I would not sign the guy. It's simply not inevitable that he'll make mid-career strides. Some guys do. But many don't, and he'd have to improve a lot to help a team."

Abbot explains in a later article on the same topic:

The Thunder have, over the last two years, consistently performed worse than normal when Durant is on the floor. Any way you slice the +/- numbers, he's one of the Thunder's worst players.

You read that correctly. Kevin Durant, uniformly regarded as an out-of-this-world NBA player, has been killing his team.

To be fair to Abbot, the piece where the above quote comes from does include much more explanation and analysis.  If this debate is something that truly interests you, set aside some time, because these links are lengthy, but they should really be required reading.

After all of this, Kevin Pelton of Basketball Prospectus chimes in with his analysis.  It is, quite simply, incredibly well done.

This has, as you might expect, caused quite a stir.  How valid are the numbers, what does it matter, who they hell are these stat geeks to say Durant sucks, etc.  Durant even weighed in on his Twitter with three separate tweets:

Everybody that is doubtin me as a player and my team as a whole..all i can say is that we all are tryin and workin our hardest!

What more do u want? let me be the player i am...i come to practice everyday..and push myself to my limit, God has put me n a gr8 position!!

I love all the REAL basketball fans who appreciate hardwork, passion and love for the game..and not jus "plus and minuses"...wateva dat is!

While I'm pretty sure I comprehend Adjusted +/- more than Durant does, I cannot hold a candle to the rest of these scholars of basketball statistics.  I'm not going to try, that's not my goal or the point of me writing all of this.

I see two major issues here:

  1. Folks are taking a complex issue and attempting to answer "yes" or "no" when the real answer might be "a bit of both".
  2. The Kings have nobody in the room to raise these issues.

I'll address the first issue first, because I'm a slave to sequentially numbered lists.

I can watch Kevin Durant play basketball, and I can know that he is one hell of a player.  I can look at his adjusted +/- numbers and see that there a specific statistical measure that shows that the team is better when he's off the floor.  Abbott and Pelton's articles demonstrate the many nuances involved in potential explanations for these two seemingly opposing ideas.  But ultimately, it is ridiculous for anyone to be so entrenched to one side of the argument that they do not weigh the merits and weaknesses of the opposing information.

For Winston to honestly state that he would not want a player like Durant on his team is insane and asinine.  But it is also a fool who completely ignores the stats.  What should happen is that a team takes the data, which the Thunder better be doing by now if they weren't, and figures out how to improve the team and Durant.  You figure out how to improve aspects of Durant's game that make him a better all-around contributor to the team.  But you also acknowledge the strides he's made in his short time in the league.  You figure out how to improve the players around Durant to be better compliments to him, so the team is a cohesive unit when Durant is on the floor.  But you also figure out what the other players are doing well so that you're team experiences less of a dropoff when he comes out of the game.

It is not black and white.  It is not yes or no.  It is additional information to be taken into consideration and factored into game-plans, coaching plans, and the team direction.  To suggest that one camp or the other is right, and that the other is wrong, is short-sighted.  My apologies to Abbott, who I respect greatly, but he makes that assertion in his analysis that I linked to earlier. 

All of this brings me to my next point.  If there are two very different aspects to discussion of a player's worth, where is the other half of the conversation within the Kings front office?  Now, I cannot take full credit for this line of thought, TZ first placed the bug in my head during the Geoff Petrie installment of the wonderful 30Q series, simply stating:

The team has no advanced stats guy -- not even one, as most high-level NBA teams now do. (A few teams have whole advanced stats staffs.)

There is a point of view out there that can suggest that a player as good as Kevin Durant has some issues that may need to be addressed.  It's not a matter of whether that point of view is right or wrong.  It's a matter of whether or not that view has merit.  There are enough advanced statistics out there right now that help us fans gain a better understanding of what is happening in games.  I'm sure the stats gurus for various teams have invented measures that the general public hasn't even heard of yet. 

The stats alone should not take over decision-making.  But they must, absolutely must, be taken into consideration.  Hard to do when the Kings don't have a voice in the room sharing those insights.  The Durant debate doesn't directly impact the Kings, but it does throw into sharp contrast what the Kings are missing out on.  They're missing these debates about players.  They're missing the other half of the player breakdown. 

They're missing that voice.

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Fantastic article

I feel at this point, in a world run by data and full of fantasy sports addicts, we focus far too much on statistics in professional sports. I, for one, always look back to a guy like Bruce Bowen, who produces no meaningful stats whatsoever, but has an enormous impact on the game at hand.

Screw you Knicks! LBJ to the Kings!!!

by Shizzo on Oct 13, 2009 9:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

my head is spinning

trying to comprehend most of that. lol.. great article.. for the record, I think the +/- thing needs to go. Wasn’t that originally a hockey stat that they just recently carried over into the NBA stat line?

by ianeriley on Oct 13, 2009 9:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+/-

Abbot wrote another article I didn’t link in the original, which was a response to Durant’s tweets. He explains +/- very simply, even if he’s perhaps being a bit condescending:

Here’s the deal: For two years, when you have been in NBA games, you have put up amazing numbers, but somehow your team has been better when you sat. When you have been out there, opponents have outscored your team pretty bad. When you sit, they don’t outscore your team as much. That’s what plus/minus is.

(The final score, by the way, is also plus/minus. If you play the entire game, and the team wins by twenty, you’re plus-20. It’s not one of those stats you want to ignore. Not when for two years it has been saying the same thing.)

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 13, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, the +/- was originally used as a hockey stat.

FIRE BRUCE BOCHY NOW!!!!!!
AND TAKE BRIAN SABEAN WITH HIM!!!!!

by 49er16 on Oct 14, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My problem with plus minus is

Let’s suppose the other 4 starters who play with Durant are average to less than average, player 6 is a below average 6th man, player 7 ok, and players 8 9 and 10 , while worse than 1-7 are better than most 8-10s. I can see you guys get my drift already, but a lot depends on the group you usually play with, Players 4 and 5’s +-
could be better than Durants because they play at crap time with 8-10 when Durant is on the bench and their +- improves.
All that aside, I think its a useful indicator but like the article indicates stats can be deceiving.

by ElRonToro on Oct 13, 2009 9:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+/- is always best used in a bulk setting

Like at a bare minimum (as I saw Dave of Bedge say once) of 50 games. It’s not that Durant’s +/- stats are anything to ignore. They show weaknesses that can be identified. But, at what point are those weaknesses solely Durant’s and not the other teammates?

I think we will see a much different story this season as there will be a more settled rotation and roster with OKC this season.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Put Simply

If you play 40 minutes a game on a losing team, you are not going to have a positive +/-. But it is hard to say you’re not helping when you lead the team in points, 2nd in FG% for anyone playing more than 1000 minutes, 2nd in steals, and 1st in blocks.

by BrooklynFan on Oct 14, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

The primary effectiveness (at least this is what I look for when comparing +/-) is comparing players within the same team. So if the Kings are a -7 overall as a team for a season, but Kevin Martin is only a -3, then he’s most likely an asset to the team.

But saying that Kevin Martin is a -3 for the Kings and Kobe Bryant is a +10 for the Lakers doesn’t mean Bryant is four times the player Kevin is. We’d be getting into apples and oranges at that point.

That’s the interesting point with Kevin Durant’s performance for Oklahoma City last season. He was a -8.9 for the season, while Oklahoma City as a whole was a -6.1.

Obviously, that stands out – but as Pookey points out just below, Durant played out of position for a portion of the season, so that could explain it. I’ll be interested to see where he winds up after this season.

What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?

by otis29 on Oct 14, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hear you on the intra-team relations point

But +/- only measures one thing with statistical certainty: point differential per time on floor. In Durant’s case this means for the 8 minutes he was off the floor the Thunder’s negative point differential grew at a slower rate. +/- cannot show that Durant was responsible for causing an increase in the rate of negative growth only that the increase occurred while Durant was in the game. To prove Durant responsible for the change you would have to create a significant sample set of games in which Durant did not play at all while all other players remained the same from the sample set in which Durant played plus the player/players who fill Durant’s 40 MPG and return a positive +/- delta. If someone asked the stat guru if he could prove with statistical certainty that the positive externalities of Durant not playing were greater than the output of the teams leading scorer, shot blocker, and ball thief and he said yes I would say the stat guru was artificially inflating his labor value because I can see no no way in which he can statistically prove such a claim given the data he has available.

by BrooklynFan on Oct 14, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec'd for saying a lot of stuff that I don't understand

Just kidding. There’s nothing I don’t understand. Nice try though.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Oct 15, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats don't usually prove anything

They usually just provide information. They can support an argument. Stats are generally just used to show trends and patterns. There are serious data integrity (internal and external validity) issues that have to be addressed. Basically, you have to know that you are measuring what you want to measure and it really isn’t something else.

Causation is another thing almost entirely different from stats. In general stats doesn’t address causation. Not the kind used for BB anyway (Not much regression done). To determine the true cause of thing requires controlling for all other factors with any possible influence, basically isolating the influence of just one thing (or player). Brooklyn is saying how tough that is to do.

Given the data you just can’t isolate one players impact in a game and likely never can cause it is a team working together. The data will always be biased in some way except when he doesn’t play any part of a game. Then he had absolutely no influence and you can kind get the picture. Still fuzzy though.

Clear as mud?

by MustangMBS on Oct 15, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I read Abbott's article

And, as Kevin Conroy pointed out, there are those that forget that Durant played a portion of last season at the 2 guard. I’m not a genius, but I know that Durant is really a PF with SF abilities.

Abbott’s response post (that you linked to in the comments G) is an excellent rebuttal that he is still weak in area’s (as you would expect).

I think it’s also a good point that position does matter somewhat with regards to what a player does best. Kevin Durant might be able to play at the 2 spot, but is that his best spot? Uhm, nope.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that his numbers improved until he got hurt by switching to his actual position. He also missed a portion of the Thunder’s schedule that definitely helped the other players pad their +/- stats.

If you look at the +/- stats for the year before, it was also bad. The biggest difference was that in year 2, Jeff Green improved his +/- stats. But, so did Kevin Durant. So what happened? PJ Carleismo getting fired happened, Jeff Green playing PF instead of SF happened, and Durant switching to the SF from SG happened.

The other thing is that the rosters drastically changed from each year to the next. Half the guys on the Sonics roster at the beginning of the 07-08 season were gone by the start of the next season in OKC.

In otherwords, I’m not sure this issue is all about Kevin Durant. The numbers look bad, and Abbott did a great job pointing out weaknesses. But this is a very unusual situation that where numbers may not play as much a part of the story as someone like Wayne Winston would want you to believe.

Oh, and great post.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 13, 2009 9:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Didn't John Salmons have a real bad +/-?

I think +/- is a valid statistical tool, as long as its used across a large enough data sample.

The implication to be drawn from a guy with a poor +/- is that he needs the ball in his hands to be effective, tends to be a black hole on offense, brings the flow of the game to a halt, and does not contribute enough on the defense end to make up for it. The critics of John Salmon, and I was one, saw him as this type of player.

When C-Webb returned from his knee injury, he was labeled as this type of player too. And the thinking was the Kings were better team with him off the floor. His +/- post-injury, numerically or intuitively observed by the FO, was part of what led to him being traded.

Kevin Durant is an amazing talent, but he is a volume shooter, not unlike post-surgery C-Webb, and a la John Salmon. This seems to have the effect of de-energizing a team, with guys standing around watching. Hustle plays, and offensive rebounds, and getting back on defense occur with less frequency, and +/- reveals this tendency. If the five players on the floor are not all on the same page, the collective effort dissipates.

The valid criticism I can come up with regarding +/- is that a coach needs to put his players in position to succeed, and teammates need to find ways to be productive in their defined roles, and make a steady contribution. If thats not happening, a players +/- will suffer.

In response to original post, if we can draft studs like Tyreke and Omri seem to be, get a near all-star like Kevin Martin at #23, nab euros like Hedo and Peja when there has been so many Euros who haven’t panned out, then I think hiring the guy with advance degree in statistics is an effort to fix something that isn’t broke.

by bench_blob on Oct 13, 2009 10:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you are missing the main point here Blob.
In response to original post, if we can draft studs like Tyreke and Omri seem to be, get a near all-star like Kevin Martin at #23, nab euros like Hedo and Peja when there has been so many Euros who haven’t panned out, then I think hiring the guy with advance degree in statistics is an effort to fix something that isn’t broke.

It’s not about drafting the right players by using statical analysis like the Billy Beane- Money Ball stuff. For baseball stat based drafting might work but college basketball +/- stats mean very little to NBA teams. The NBA is about measurements, physical skills and BB IQ. Where the Kings could really use a statistician is in game to game break downs, scouting teams and understanding their own team.

Hypothetically speaking- if the +/- stats say that every time the Kings play both Beno Udrih and Andres Nocioni together the team averages a -13, then the Kings should a) know that this statistical anomaly is taking place b) attempt to rectify the situation with film study, scheme etc. or c) avoid the combo of Beno and Noc.

This becomes very useful for offensive and defensive schemes, rotations- hell, your entire line-up. Now I’m not advocating a team run on statistics alone, but knowledge is power, failing to plan is planning to fail, God helps those who helps themselves, cliqué, cliqué, cliqué. If you know that that mixing the Joker brand deodorant and lipstick causes you to go insane and die, then avoid those two products in combination….kapeesh.

Maybe I’ve drank the Bill Beane kool-aid but I think that innovators like he, Bill James, Theo Epstein and yes…Mark Cuban have brought a new level of intelligence to sports that can’t be denied. Not using the tools readily available to everyone seems pretty out of touch. I think Paul Westphal should be asked to chime in on this very debate if T-Zilly gets a chance or if LTTGs happens to sit next to him on an airplane please ask, because Westphal, as an employee of the Dallas Mavericks for the last two seasons has first hand knowledge of the information we are speaking of but with an old school player/coach perspective.

Nice post G money- I’ll be reading the links tomorrow, thanks for putting them in one place.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 13, 2009 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Statistics - in some ways, to me, it's like a hot fudge sundae

If you were to read the ingredients and the caloric break down, you would never put a spoonful past your lips, because no doubt, there wouldn’t be much good for your body listed. And you would be missing out.

Unless you live in the Matrix, the world is not a collection of numbers.

Another everyday example is BMI. Most NBA playes are overweight or obese. Huh? You tell LeBron he is a fatty. Numbers are a wonderful guide. Remember Long Term Capital? A collection of genuises with the collective IQs of the GNP who ran a mutual fund – and who were bailed out by your (and my) tax dollars because a lot of big shots looked at the numbers of who was running the numbers. Can’t miss….

All of the numbers in the world cannot hide what the eyes can see. Thanks for the bit of controversy ExG. Oh, and the numbers are in: this post of yours is going green:: rec’d

and if I want a problem solved I will call Winston Wolf not Wayne Winston

by betweentheeyes on Oct 14, 2009 6:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey no kidding

I actually have a tentative trip to Vegas planned for tomorrow, I may even catch the game if I can get an inexpensive ticket. Not sure I want to endure whats likely to be a pounding though.
No way we match up with those guys right now.
I assure you that after that first opportunity I constantly keep my eyes peeled for another opportunity – not that its (statistically) likely to arise.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good comment jj

I can’t remember where I linked yesterday out of Truehoop but one blogger posted that he saw stats usage like having a special team coach in football. 25 years ago the first head coach that had a special teams coach came in for a huge amount of abuse from other head coachs. Today, obviously they are ubiquitous His point being is that in a few years, all teams will have stats department. His other point was that it’s all not just just the stats, but eye,ears and stats.

In the mid 1980’s, I remember a spirited argument the members of the department I worked in had about whether or not we needed a fax machine . The majority opinion was that we didn’t

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Oct 14, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they were right....

The Global economy hasn’t been humming as soundly as we all would like.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 14, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quibble

My only quibble with your post is that Salmons was a good defender – especially a good on ball defender.

by Kusian on Oct 14, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Salmons....

Good on ball defender but horrible team defender and also a horrible rebounder.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 14, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, for all his excellent skills (and he has them)

he has terrible court vision. No real feel for where he was on the court. Bad vision = poor rebounding and lack of passing skills.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So is this you finally admitting the Kings didn't make a terrible mistaking moving Salmons last February?

Ha, I doubt that.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 14, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats are like a highlight reel

they don’t show the whole picture. Neither would a low light reel. Stats are generated by the playing time of the player. And, as such, they only show the average of all the plays made while the player was on the court.

If the stats show a problem then the only way to identify the cause of the problem is to evaluate the actual plays that generated the stat. To watch the plays and evaluate what the actual cause was. If a PG isn’t getting enough assists, the stats will tell you. But, what was the cause? Failure to hit the open man, bad passing , no passing, or simply because the open men who got the perfect pass couldn’t make the shot.

Stats tell you what happened, where it happened, when it happened but not why. Only a fool draws definitive analysis from stats. Someone who knows what their looking at, still has to watch the games and identify what went wrong.

There is too many variation during an actual game. Defenses switch, mismatches cause teams to have player defend players of different positions other than their own, teams play zone, coaches dictate plays taking the ball out of one players hand and into anothers, players switch expecting teammates to back them up only to have the backup blow the coverage. There are too many variables. Only the coaching staff knows what was called, and who had responsibility to do what. Even a expert can’t be certain about every play and who’s at fault when something goes wrong unless he has inside information and sometimes even then.

Total all the players stats and no one would have expected the Kings to beat the Lakers last year.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Oct 13, 2009 11:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I would add that in Durant's case

as the team’s Star and only weapon to really be feared – its likely that every time he went out of the game the other team rested thier best or even two best players in response.
This is a case where my lyin eyes have to win out over stats (something I’ve always believed were deceptive in many cases).
Great post though, really superior.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 14, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont think these new ideas are useless

But I think they have to be used properly.

For instance, Winston saying that he would not sign Durant is an example of how to not use statistics. I do not think it should be used for personnel decisions.

But I think it can be useful in discussing situational game strategies. As in Player X from team X is statistically shown to play well doing action X against Player Y from team Y.
So I agree, you put your players you already have in the best position to help the team, and you stop doing the things that hurt you.

Every person has strengths and weaknesses, and keeping track of what those are and how they use them is data that should not be ignored.

by Ice_9ine on Oct 13, 2009 11:17 PM PDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

But ultimately, it is ridiculous for anyone to be so entrenched to one side of the argument that they do not weigh the merits and weaknesses of the opposing information

True in basketball and indeed life.

There are far too many intangibles in this game for just stats to cope with, but you need stats to guage how you’re doing… a delicate balance indeed.

by Rickyflip on Oct 13, 2009 11:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The plus/minus statistics show that Durant is not being used effectively and that his teammates don’t know how to play with him or vice versa. His talent level is still incredible. It is insane to say that you wouldn’t want to sign him. The plus/minus stats show a lack of chemistry between Durant and the rest of the roster.

Disclaimer: comments may have been made under the influence of alcohol. If the Kings start winning, this will probably change.

by Ball in Cup on Oct 14, 2009 12:05 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great post.

The stats alone should not take over decision-making. But they must, absolutely must, be taken into consideration.

I think this is most vital line of the post. Stats aren’t everything but it should be part of the discussion on how well or poor a team is performing. Hopefully, the Kings will address this sooner than later.

On another note – no matter what the stats predict, I’m hoping the Kings steal another game from the Lakers this season.

October 28th couldn't come soon enough.

by JETisKing on Oct 14, 2009 1:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

More than 17 wins

Maybe the use of these kinds of stats would help win more games. I mean we can blame last year on a lot of screwed up things. Coaching is probably biggest, but it just seemed like they often did not know how to best use their players.

Be nice if they figured out how to get the most out of their players. If stats like this can help then bring on the stats.

by MustangMBS on Oct 14, 2009 6:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great read

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 14, 2009 8:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I concur

FIRE BRUCE BOCHY NOW!!!!!!
AND TAKE BRIAN SABEAN WITH HIM!!!!!

by 49er16 on Oct 14, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

League Pass

Great article. I too moved away from Sacramento in 2003 and now live in SD. A few years ago the kings would make ESPN and had several national games, but now it is almost impossible to keep up with the actual game play. I am also planning on purchasing league pass so that I dont have to only watch the clips v kings and laker v kings.

by mbcarval on Oct 14, 2009 8:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm in the same boat.

Nothin’ worse than watching a Kings-Lakers game on Prime Ticket with Rick Fox on the pre-game show. Ughhh.

October 28th couldn't come soon enough.

by JETisKing on Oct 14, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stats are....

…like the punctuation of a paragraph. Sure they don’t tell you what is trying to be communicated in and of itself, but without them, you’re sure going to have a hard time understand what you’re looking at.

I see the value in statistical analysis. It’s a guide and gives you an idea of what is happening. However, it’s definitely not the end all for player analysis.

I do think the Kings should invest in a statistical analysis tool, to better understand game dynamics. It can help make sense of the film you view later.

by Smills91 on Oct 14, 2009 10:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the Kings are missing out on half the conversation

Judging by this clip of Jason Levian, I think some people in the Kings organization are aware of advanced statistics. How influential it is, I don’t know, but I think both sides of the conversation can be there without having a specific guy to only do advanced statistics.

by jasonrp on Oct 14, 2009 10:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree and disagree

I’m sure that the front office is aware of the advanced statistics that are out there. I agree with you on that.

I disagree with the notion that you don’t need someone who specifically focuses on the statistical analysis. The kind of advanced statistical analysis that is quickly becoming commonplace in the NBA requires a tremendous amount of time and effort. As TZ said in the quote I referenced, some teams have groups of people working just on stats.

Think of it this way: An NBA writer can cover all 32 teams as a general reporter. They can read up on a specific team if they want to write an article about that team. They can watch some games for all the different teams. But let’s say that sportswriter decides to write about the Kings, is he going to have the same depth of knowledge about the team that a Kings writer (like TZ, Sam Amick, etc) would have? Of course not. The Kings are not their focus.

Stats are the same. I can look at a player’s +/-, but unless I really analyze a lot of additional information, I won’t be able to explain it very well. You can be aware of the stats that are out there, but that doesn’t mean you have time to do the in-depth analysis that advanced statistics would require.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 14, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All the statisical analysis in the world won't help if the coach goes by his gut.

I can’t imagine what unknown information can be uncovered by analying the Kings statistics. But, I’d hazard to guess that it would have shown that Moore shouldn’t have been a starter over JT. But yet, 2 different coaches choose to start MM.

In the Durant case, no one believes that the coach should pull Durant based on stats. The stats show that the team isn’t getting the outcome they should expect from a talent as good as Durants’. It does show that the coach needs to change his approach, if he expects the outcome to change.

Good coaches only need one statistic, the point totals at the end of the game. Does Phil Jackson need a statistician to tell him Derick Fisher isn’t the best PG. Do the Kings really need a room full of analysts to tell them that their frontcourt doesn’t rebound well. Or, that when you send all 5 guys after rebounds that your going to be giving up a lot of easy fast break points if you still don’t get the rebound.

Stats help when the problem isn’t already apparent. I guess what I’m trying to say is, “If you up to your ass in alligators, you don’t need a statistician to tell you your going to have a tough time draining the swamp”. Let’s hope PW doesn’t need a statistician because the problems are pretty apparent.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Oct 14, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too simplistic

Honestly, I suspect that Moore would still have been the starter. There’s not going to be tons of data during a player’s rookie season, and you’re not going to make a big adjustment based on a small sample size. And it is easy to forget now, but JT wasn’t super efficient at first. Like most rookies, there was an adjustment.

Now, don’t take that as an endorsement of Moore or a knock against JT. That’s where the coaching takes over. Again, I’m not advocating that you use stats for those decisions, but a coach needs to know which of his line-ups are shown to be the most effective. The coach still makes the decisions based on a lot of factors, but the coach should have that data so he can factor it into a decision.

In regards to Durant, you’re right that the coach needs to adjust the approach. But it doesn’t necessarily show that the problem is not getting enough from Durant. It can show a problem with Durant and/or his teammates. That’s where watching the games comes in.

To say that nothing matters other than the final score is too simplistic. I can tell you that the Kings only won 17 games last season. But aside from scoring more points than the other team, can you tell me the specific behaviors that resulted in those 17 wins? And can you tell me what specific behaviors that occurred in those wins were absent in the losses? We can make simple assumptions, but wouldn’t it be nice to know what trends the stats can identify?

There’s too much going on in the game of basketball for everything to be seen just by the eye. Stats aren’t the cure-all, but they give perspective and additional insights.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 14, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it too simplistic to think that good coaches would know what went wrong.

There are a lot of people on this site that have concerns about Hawes floating out to the 3pt line. But, is anyone exect the coaching staff know for sure whether or not that is part of the plan for those offensive sets. If you dont have inside knowledge of what was expected of him, how can you judge him or his stats.

If the 3rd base coach signals a runner that the hit & run is on, and the runner takes off, but the hitter doesn’t swing and the runner is thrown out, who’s at fault? The runners caught trying to steal percentage goes down, but the stats don’t tell the real story. There’s nothing simplistic about all the things that go into a basketball play. But, if the coach that designed the play and taught the players how to run the play, doesn’t know what went wrong when the play goes badly, then you need a new coach.

As outsiders we are desperate to know the reasons why our team isn’t winning. We post blame on players & coaches & owners & GMs all through the year. Now, someone takes the events of the games & puts them in number form. We don’t need to be insiders anymore, we have statistical evidence to show us who’s to blame because they have a minus in front of their number. The simplicity is that we don’t have to know the responseabliities of each player, & we don’t even have to be knowledgeable about the game. All we need is a minus sign.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Oct 14, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"They're missing that voice"

If the Kings are looking for a good stats guy, I nominate Ziller. I’ll even write a letter of recommendation. As long as he promises to keep up the good work here at StR. Just quit everything else.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Oct 14, 2009 11:39 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

My issue with +/-

Can someone tell me (because I’m too lazy to figure it out on my own) what Udonis Haslem’s +/- was when Dwyane Wade was hurt? How about when he was heathy? My bet is that Haslem’s +/- was much better when Wade was healthy.

How about Caron Butler and Atawn Jamison with and without Arenas? Again, my guess is that they look a lot better when Arenas has been healthy.

I’m sure that this stat has a viable application, but as a stand-alone I can find no statistical parameter that means less to me or is less effective than +/-.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 14, 2009 5:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You can figure it out

But not quickly. I can tell you Haslem’s adjusted +/-, but it won’t mean much after the 2007-08 season still factored in.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 14, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever.

We lived in Colorado Springs for five years. Great town, and close to a true sports city. People here should take in a game at the Pepsi Center and a game at whatever-blah-blah-blah @ Mile High…

and college hockey is a blast.

Lower their expectations and rise to met them

by left hand on Oct 14, 2009 5:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Clearly, that was my point.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 14, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Denver U to the Frozen 4 again baby!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 14, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's about the Colorado College Tigers

in Colorado Springs. If you really want to enjoy a live sports experience, go to World Arena when DU comes to skate on CC’s ice.

Regarding +-, can it be assumed a kicker has a great rating in football? Does that make him a great football player? It just doesn’t always translate. It is a questionable, albeit long-standing, hockey statistic. If I were an NBA GM, I doubt I would use it to determine whether I would want Kevin Durant on my team. I would venture a guess that everyone on a team that loses regularly has a poor rating, and nearly everyone on a great team has a good rating. I can get the same information from the standings.

Lower their expectations and rise to met them

by left hand on Oct 15, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with you on CC

That’s a good time.

As for stats, you and I are on completely different pages.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 15, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm satisfied to respectfully disagree.

But, don’t misunderstand me. I definitely value information that can be gleaned from statistics and what can be done with it. I would say it has greater than average relative value.

It’s just that I tend to think this +- business doesn’t translate well to many NBA situations. Perhaps it can best be used to differentiate players that are difficult to otherwise determine who should be on the floor, who should be on the floor in given situations, additional information in evaluating middling players or players on middling teams.

Trying to apply it to a player like Kevin Durant and suggest he has less than advertised value, certainly at year three, is, I think, an abuse of numbers. For instance, knowing the other teams have to spend a great deal of their time preparing specifically for a player like Durant and still get burned at least at that position, says something to me that the numbers here don’t reflect.

I’m game for more convincing.

Lower their expectations and rise to met them

by left hand on Oct 15, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on that, I think we're on the same page

My whole point was that I think the Kings need a stat guy to do the really in-depth analysis, and to find those nuggets of information that you can’t easily gleam from watching the game.

I don’t think stats should overrule a coach, nor do I believe that stats show us that Durant isn’t a good player. The stats simply show an area for the coach to try to find ways to make the team better.

As for +/-, they’re now using adjusted +/- more than raw numbers, which I think helps to increase the value of the stats, but I don’t have a firm grasp of how exactly they adjust it, nor am I certain there’s an agreed-upon method for adjustments.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Oct 16, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As far as I've heard

Dan Rosenbaum’s method of adjusting it is still usually the method bandied about. But I might be wrong. I’m not the stats guy around here either.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09

by pookeyguru on Oct 16, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are missing an All Star caliber player to do stats ON!

Kevin Martin is good, but he isn’t all star quality. His defense is poor and he just isnt the all around player one would expect of an allstar. Tyreke MAY be an allstar eventually, but it is pretty early to try and put the kid at elite status even for the most rabid cowbell ringers. So what the Kings are lacking is an AllSTAR presence. We are all hoping that one of our young players matures into an AllStar quality player. But there is no sure thing on the Kings roster. The other problem I see with the Kings is that their complementary players are not very good. There will need to be some more roster turnover to eliminate that problem. The Kings roster has too many below mediocre players to mount any kind of serious run. Let me be the first to say that I hope that ‘REKE has a STELLAR rookie campaign, and that he wins ROY. But even that will not be enough to take this roster full of mediocre talent to the level they need to reach to be a serious competitor in the regular season or post season. The Kings need to identify talent and build around it. I think we have been searching for talent and not finding it. Coupled with the financial situation of our owners, and we have a sub .500 team that will not go deep into the playoffs. In fact, they are a long shot for the playoffs. Let’s hope ‘Reke is the real deal! If he is, we can start building our team around him. He seems physically gifted, motivated, and in the perfect spot to get him plenty of minutes. If he brings excitement back to ARCO, he will be the team’s savior.

   The team has been unexciting for so long, that any flash of excitement will bring the fans back into the arena! I would certainly purchase tickets to see an exciting young team giving it their all to win a game. Whether they win or lose doesn’t MATTER, effort is the key! What we had last year was a collection of players who were not playing like a team, and at times looked as if they were not putting out much effort. I, for one, hope ‘Reke is the spark plug to get the Kings excitement going again. I miss the days in ARCO when it was so loud you couldn’t hear yourself screaming. We need those days to return. And even if they are playing at a less than spectacular older arena, it is the team’s effort on the floor that will bring the fans back. A brand new state of the art arena with all the bells and whistles would sit empty if the team on the floor played with no energy and looked like they were just going through the motions. Let’s hope lightening strikes and the Kings play with more enthusiasm this year! Kings fans are desperately waiting for the team to give them a reason to buy into the Kings energy! There is no statistic in the world that can measure the energy of a team playing together with heart, emotion and effort. They dont have to WIN! They have to TRY and be exciting doing it! GO KINGS !!!

Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!

by FaStRmAn on Oct 14, 2009 8:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The fact that we do not have one stats guy is troubling.

We should at least have one guy doing analysis of our lineups and the players we mayh acquire.

by mayfieldcol on Oct 15, 2009 9:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure the Kings look at statistics

They just don’t have someone dedicated to it, and I don’t blame them, especially if they can’t afford it.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 15, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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