No Pygmy Goats Harmed As Lakers Beat Kings 98-92 in Vegas
by Tom Ziller on Oct 16, 2009 5:02 AM PDT
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PrintI won't lie: this preseason has been rough.
With no visual evidence to help mold the game experience, my information soaking is so ... weird. I'm not the type to watch a choppy illicit feed, so I didn't see a second of the game. Didn't see Spencer Hawes's blown oop. Or Andrew Bynum beasting it up. Or how Desmond Mason looked.
So I rely those who were there for that. I read Sam Amick or Jason Jones's gamer first thing. Then to the Associated Press. Then the opponent's hometown paper. Then the box score, the play-by-play, the shot chart ... and I'm ready to go.
And I honestly feel like I'm still talking out of my ear. Which is why this preseason I'm focusing more on observations than conclusions.
Kings vs Lakers Coverage Hub | Boxscore
Observation #1. Source: box score. Data: Jason Thompson had 19 points, 14 rebounds (6 offensive). Observation: Jason Thompson is a beast!
Observation #2. Source box score. Data: Tyreke Evans had nine assists and three turnovers on a night in which his teammates shot 44 percent. Observation: Tyreke Evans can pass!
Observation #3. Source: shot chart. Data:
Data, cont'd: Hawes took four 3PA, three 2-point jumpers, and nine "close" shots. He was 2-4 from three (six points on four shots), 1-3 on 2-point jumpers (two points on three shots), and 4-9 on close shots (eight points on nine shots) while also earning four FTAs, presumably on the close shots (adding two more points on effectively two shots). Observation: Spencer Hawes was more effective from beyond the arc than anywhere else.
Observation #4. Source: shot chart. Data: Tyreke Evans took 18 FGAs and two FTAs. Ten of 18 FGAs were two-point jumpers. Evans hit 3-10, for six points on 10 shots, or a 0.60 pts/poss rate. He took one 3PA, and missed it, for zero points on one shot. He took seven close FGAs, hitting three and drawing a foul (1-2 FTA), for seven points on eight possessions, or a 0.875 pts/poss rate. Observation: Tyreke Evans was more effective scoring at the rim than anywhere else. Also, Tyreke Evans takes a lot of long jumpers.
Observation #5. Source: box score. Data: Andres Nocioni scored 13 points on nine shot attempts (4-8 floor, 2-2 FTAs), for a 1.44 pts/poss rate. He also had six rebounds (five defensive), no turnovers, and registered a +8. Observation: Yay for Noce!
Observation #6. Source: box score. Data: Desmond Mason was 1-5 for two points in 17 minutes. He added four assists and three rebounds. Observation: not the best night for the Mason bandwagon.
Observation #7: Source: box score. Data: Omri Casspi scored six points on seven shot attempts (2-6 floor, 2-2 FTAs). Observation: Even angels lose at billiards.
Observation #8. Source: box score. Data: Donte Greene played zero minutes. Observation: Donte's bandwagon can be found sliding down Donner Summit.
Observation #9. Source: box score. Kenny Thomas, Sean May and Jon Brockman split 12 minutes. Thomas got the biggest share. Observation: Coffee cools down more quickly when you add an ice cube.
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As a fan who watched the game in socal
Box score looks bad, but tyrekes shots were good ones, he got blocked I recall a few times inside by bynum, and he had kobe guarding him but he still impressed me with his point guard ability and potential.
I didn't get to watch the game
But Evans and Thompson look like they had great games. Again, Thompson needs to limit his fouls, but he did great work on the glass and inside.
Evans with 13 points, 9 assists/3 tos, 8 boards (2 offensive), and 3 steals as well. He also ended up being the only starter with a positive +/-. Obviously the bad part of the equation is that he shot 6-18 and only got to the line once, but I believe that once his shot gets better, and he becomes more comfortable in the NBA game, that will improve.
Reading the game threads, and from an early look at the box score, it definitely looked like Bynum feasted on Hawes early, but Hawes seems to have redeemed himself late, and his stat line isn’t bad at all: 18 points, 9 boards, and a block. I believe Section said it in the game thread, but if this is a bad night for Spencer, I’m happy.
One thing about Mason’s line that surprised me was the 4 assists. That’s a pleasant surprise, especially if it isn’t an anomaly. Kevin also had a couple assists in his limited time on the court.
I really don’t know why Noc isn’t starting though, especially against a team like the Lakers who are just so big. He played well though.
Beno looks like he played well in limited minutes, and I’m happiest with his 4 steals. Looks like he and Evans were real ball hawks last night. Sergio had a better assist to turnover ratio, and +/-, so I think we might have two competent backups for Reke this season.
And I’m sort of glad Casspi didn’t have another great game, although it wasn’t terrible, because he was catching a case of Ike Dioguitis.
It really looks like Westphal doesn’t believe in Donte, at least not now, which is sort of sad, and probably really frustrating for him. We really need to send him to the D-League to get some real game time, even if its against inferior competition. And for a lot longer this time.
Also, our free throw shooting was atrocious, most remarkably of which was K-Mart with only 2-6 from the line.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
One more comment though
Westphal really seems to be changing the attitude of this team. Our biggest weaknesses last year (other than defense of course) are rebounding and opponent 3P%.
47 boards for us to 52 for the Lakers (14 offensive for us, 15 for them), and Lakers shot 2-11 from 3.
In the 2 Games against Portland we had 75 combined boards (25 offensive) to Portland’s 71. Portland also shot a combined 7-24 from 3.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
The Lakers didn't really look to take many 3's though
They were mostly playing in transition and dumping it into Bynum all night. I’m not really sure there is a wry observation based on the lowered 3% you’re making. When it becomes a trend in the regular season, I’ll believe it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I watched a game thread for a bit
Evans looked great…He made an awesome play to set Hawes up for the missed oop haha.
But my real concern, which is not touched on in the above recap.. Evans went down in the third and appeared to be holding his knee. The Lakers announcers didn’t seem to give a damn. Is there any news on this? I know he went back to the locker room. What is his status for Saturday?
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
Reading the game thread
I thought he came back into the game after?
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
I didn't watch the rest of the game after that point
I became disheartened w/ the lack of information…and the fact that my fiance was getting on me to watch the office with her. So he’s alright?! He’s alright??!
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
Yeah thats what I read
Helped lead the attempted comeback too.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
awesome!
He really looked like the best player on the floor (for the kings) when he was in.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
To confirm, he was out for about 5 minutes with a cramp.
He’s just getting used to the schedule. Going from one big game a week to sometimes 3 games in a week can be hard to get used to. Good news though
... Now let me show you why they call me the Velour Fog...
by tomroadrunner on Oct 16, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions
That's what he read.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Oct 16, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think anyone who watched the game and is a fan of the Kings...
…can pull some positives from this game, ’Reke’s game is pretty solid other that the Jumper or set shot from outside. It’s to the point where teams have already recognized this and are sagging back and letting him take that 12-15 foot jumper or the 3 shot. Until the young man finds his jumper, that is how teams will play ’Reke because there are no players that I can remember who have the ability to stay with this kid. He blew past Kobe, FIsher, Brown, and anyone else they sent to guard ’Reke. looks like he could develop as the real deal! He is a solid jumper away from lighting up anyone trying to cover him.
I also noticed that Spencer Hawes is still rusty and out of sync from the long summer layoff. It will take time for Shawes to put it together, get his stamina up, and learn to play with all the new players around him. I think if he has gone to summer league, these problems would have been mitigated, but he chose not to. He has not presented ANY good explanation for his blowing off the summer league invite. Fans have long memories, and are already getting on Hawes for “being out of shape” and “trade Hawes, he’s soft” comments. But in reality, this is the beginning of his 3rd season, ad it is usually the 3rd year for kids to have the light bulb go off above their heads and discover their niche in the NBA. I think Hawes is close. He’s not as good as the centers he has played this preseason, but he has played 2 potential all stars in Oden an Bynum. Give the Kid a break and let his game mature. I believe that Hawes will come into his own some time during the season this year.
Jason Thompson is still making the same rookie mistakes he was making last year at this time. He seems to rush or hurry his shots like he is more concerned with flipping a bad shot up before he gets it blocked. Many times these hurried shots are uncontested. He needs to slow down and let the game develop. He needs to do a crab dribble for a dunk, or develop a baby hook to go to in the post so he doesn’t have to worry about getting blocked. His outside J looks a bit better than it did last year, and you can see the improvement in his mechanics. (next player they need to focus on with regard to shooting mechanics is ’Reke, because Martin is hopelessly set in his way and he shoots a very good percentage anyway.
Casspi looks like he can BALL! Not so sure Mason has a vice grip on that starting position at the 3 just yet. Let’s see how Casspi’s game develops in the preseason. there are some really nice attributes to Omri’s game that can not be taught. He has a good handle, a very good jumper, and a mean streak playing defense. He is more athletic than I thought he would be He may be your opening day starter if he keeps playing his butt off!
Brockman is a work in progress. Sure he can rebound. Sure he hustles on defense, but I am not sure he does either at an NBA level of competition. He will need to display an NBA caliber quality to stay on the roster. He is a hustle guy. A team needs garbage guys like Brockman.
Beno looks like the Beno of last season, not the Pre Contract Beno. He doesnt seem to be too worried that he is losing his starting job with every performance. Wonder if he will get bumped all the way down to 3 on the depth chart, because Rodriguez looks pretty good if raw, and could easily earn more playing time the more he plays under control.
Donte Green isnt even getting any run in the PRE SEASON for a new coach with no preconceptions about his game. This is a terrible sign for D. Green. He was the only non injured player. He is one of only 3 players who were DNP-CD. The other 2 are scrubs who are D-League bound after camp. I think Green is going with them unless he finds a way to improve his defense. Cant see if he has improved his D until he gets some run in a preseason game. But it says loads about a player if you get NO run from the coach in a pre season game. Even K9 got a 5 minute run and played well. I think D. Green is headed to the D-League to develop some kind of defense, because he cant get on the floor till he can prove he can play “D”.
I like Rodriguez better than Beno. I think the Kings need to just plant Beno next to K-9 at the end of the bench if he cant play any better than he did last night. 1 for 2 with 6 points and a /- of -2 from a starter is horrifically bad! Beno is creeping down the depth chart while Rodriguez (/- 6) is headed up the chart. Will Beno lose his starting position. Beginning to believe he already has.
Cant wait for the next game for the Kings on Saturday. Golden State is more in the Kings league, so it will be interesting to see how the players play against a team that isnt a sure fire title contender. GO KINGS !!!
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
by FaStRmAn on Oct 16, 2009 7:17 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Looking at the box score
Beno had 3 assists and 4 steals too. I don’t think you can discount him just yet. And he had a +/- of 2 yes, but he didn’t start, and Reke was the only one of the starters with a positive +/.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I like the rundown FaStRmAn, but...
I disagree on behalf of Beno. No one is going to claim that he’s ever going to be a superstar, but what I saw from him was pretty confident and controlled play. I think not being “the man,” but still having minutes suits him pretty well.
I concur
good bench game from Beno. Excellent even.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Beno's control
Looked to me like he had at least one clear chance to throw up an open court alley oop to JT and two other chances to pass the ball up the court on the break and instead chose to hold on to the ball, put the squad in to a half court set, dribble around, then make his move. Hard for me to say who made those calls, PW or Beno, but man it chafes me to watch what looked like Beno deliberately attempting to assert his control on the game at the expense of potential fast break buckets.
Beno could
go for 20 pts, 10 assists and 5 steals and people here would still find something about which to gripe. The simple fact is that he has had a very good preseason, and I suspect his overall numbers (per minutes) are as good or better than Tyreke’s. So far so good with regard to Beno’s role as #2.
Will I gripe?
Of course! And compliment (see my comments below).
Stats have never been my problem with Beno. It’s his attitude attitude attitude that I find grating. His play thus far leads me to believe he went home in the off season and thought about his game and decided, “I don’t need to change my behavior I just have to try harder to prove to everyone that I was right.” Sure, he’s trying harder—which is always promising. But, I don’t see much change in the aspects of his game that bothered me to begin with. He’s still blaming other people for mistakes, see training camp interviews, and when he plays PG, he is still trying to assert too much control over his teammates’ games. At SG last night was a different matter entirely.
On a broader note, I feel the need to clarify something with you Kusian. On the old Sactown blog I went by NYCFan under which moniker I enjoyed many debates with you on academics, politics, and basketball. Unfortunately, someone in the SBNation already had that name thus my new more geographically honed name. I say this because I have felt that some of my comments directed at you particularly have seen a communication breakdown in part I think because of the break in continuity from those old discussions. as has been discussed recently it is hard to identify each other by anything more than our monikers and our avatars and signatures.
Back to your point, if Beno put up 20/10/5 but still refused to pass the ball up the court on a fast break, yeah I’d probably gripe.
by BrooklynFan on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Point taken on the fast break
but thats the reason he’s not a starting PG I think, not a result of some sulk. He may also have been thinking about TOs, hopefully something thats been hammered into all of them this pre-season. We had waaay too many last year. He has limitations, we all know it, but he’s played well so far and I think it looks like he’ll come around under Westphal and do his best.
We’ll see.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair point on turn overs
Which is why I am not certain whether it is Beno or PW making that call.
by BrooklynFan on Oct 16, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Beno should not play PG
I agree. He should back up Martin as a SG. He doesn’t have the transition skills to play PG and that has been evident for a long time. As a SG he would do much better.
Good to know you are back!
I’m trying to limit the political debates, however ;-) Fair enough on Beno’s attitude. I just would like to see a level fairness when it comes to criticism. In my opinion, Beno is a fashionable target, so I want to give him props when he deserves it. Thus far, it seems like his play has been good. And that is what we need from our #2 PG – good, solid play. This is especially the case when our #1 is so young and inexperienced and likely to be inconsistent. (Man, I really, really like his upside though. Dude is going to be a STUD!)
I don't think so
And the way our offense ran the last two seasons combined with his style of play leads me to think that it is something that was unlikely to happen when he started and much less likely now that he is not.
He needs to step up his game, but he may prove to be a reliable bench player
I just dont believe he owns the starter job anymore.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
Don't know why part of my post was striked out
must have hit that on mistake.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
It gets striked out when you put a minus in front of the sentance. When you put plus and minus sign
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
Thanks!
I only got to see some of the game. What I did see was kind of confusing about Beno. At one point he looked like was making really good passes and then he would dribble into traffic and just turn the ball over. Seemed like a very mixed bad.
I haven’t thought he should be anything, but a SG who backs up KMart. Then I saw him making plays and thought, well damn maybe I am wrong, then saw the stupid turnovers and thought, no sure as hell I am right… Sounds like a tough call at best.
SHawes, hmmm…. Lots of you down on him, but he scored OK. Obviously he has real and glaring defensive deficits though. I saw some that as well.
What I was pleased and surprised to hear that Nocioi came out and kicked butt along with a solid outing by Omri. With Cisco out we really need this to be going well.
And then there is JT and Evans, what little I saw was great and then the numbers just speak for themselves. Glad that there was good reviews for them as well…
I am curious about Evans and if he guarded Kobe. Did he and if so how did it go?
I couldn't tell on that crappy feed
I am curious about Evans and if he guarded Kobe. Did he and if so how did it go?
but it seemed like KM had Kobe most of the time. And Kobe didn’t shoot all that well for what its worth.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I thought Kevin looked servicable on Defense
which is a huge step forward.
Only remember once
Kobe was out by the free throw line…gave Reke a couple of his patented pump fakes, Reke stayed down on his feet (and may I say, what a weird ass expression (left his feet) Damn!) and was right up in Kobe’s chest with a hand in the face as Kobe nailed the 2. It was as much as anyone could do.
With Hawes there are mistakes and then there are mistakes
Hawes did get pushed around all night by the Lakers’ big men. While it was unfortunate, I don’t think you can get down on Hawes for not competing physically with people who are simply more physical than he is. The best we can do is start digging through the draft express 2010 profiles in search for the next stud center.
On the other hand, Hawes continues to show signs of stunted emotional growth. He still throws temper tantrums after botched offensive plays and as a result he was the last man back on defense on more than one occasion last night. He continues to force his game rather than let the game come to him, i.e. when in the post with the ball he does a lot of dribble dribble juke juke as opposing big men swarm then throws up an off balance shot while his teammates sit open along the perimeter. He shows a lack of concentration with his sour puss facial expression and arm flailing during play rather than staying focused on playing basketball until the whistle is blown then making his case. These are the kind of mistakes I find unacceptable from a professional of any industry and they wear on my patience as a fan.
I too enjoyed seeing Noc just go out and get the job done the best he could and Beno at the 2 looked good to me, i.e. a passing 2 guard with a decent shot, court vision, and drive. But I do think he does the team a disservice when he controls the offense.
For anyone that watched the game
I’m interested in the quality of the Kings defense on the perimeter?
I know the post defense is clearly still going to be an issue, but just improving our defense against penetration and the three point shot should help this team quite a bit.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
I only watched about a quarter
But the defense was pretty awful. Dunk after dunk for the Lakers. Half court alley oop passes, etc. Basically they did whatever they wanted. But maybe it changed…I admit I watched during bad stretches.
The NBA: "Where 27 free throws happens"
Evans on Kobe defense?
Any information or reviews on this one on one defense? Kobe did not score a lot, for Kobe. Was that due to solid defense. I mean he played 26 minutes and only scored 18 pts. For him I am pretty sure that is below average.
It was okay
Nothing special, and it was Kobe Bryant. he would have had 30 in a blowout in a normal game in all likelihood.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I see nothing special 3 games into pre-season for anybody
That includes Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol. Pre-Season just doesn’t mean that much.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Have you ever learned much from pre-season?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
To me
Noc seemed to have a number of lapses where it looked like he wasn’t paying attention..and they seemd slow in transition a lot but I don’t remember who was on the floor. I thought Brockman did a good job in his few minutes of not letting himself get backed dwon in the post. They seem to be hustling more but I’m just not sure if it is as coordinated a hustle as PW would want.
There wasn't a lot of breakdowns like there have been in the past
But there was awful transition and interior defense most of the night. If Spencer Hawes is your best interior defender, you’re going to have problems.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Fesenko 2 blocks, 2 boards in 11 minutes.
I’m not saying, but I’m just saying. (3 turnovers and 4 fouls too though, so there still needs to be work done there)
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
F e s e n k oooo
Fesenko was his name-o……
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
How about Haddadi? Or another Grizzly?
Look at the memphis roster, 8 big men by my count. Gasol, Randolph, Thabeet, Arthur are probably going nowhere.
Iran and Israel, hmmmm.
Well, . . . . . it worked with the Croats and the Serbs.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Haddadi do not want
TEHRAN, Aug. 25 (MNA) — Iranian international Hamed Haddadi says he is a star of the Memphis Grizzlies but the NBA team leaves him on the bench and off the court most of the time.
"Grizzlies’ officials don’t let me show my abilities. I have done my best every time I was called up to play for my team, but I don’t know why they don’t trust me," added Haddadi, who was the first Iranian basketball player to make it to the NBA.
"I want to play regularly for the Grizzlies; nevertheless I will have to change my team now since I am a star of the team but sitting on the bench," he told the Mehr News Agency in an interview at the MNA offices on Monday.
The 7-foot-2 player helped Iran win the 25th FIBA Asia Championship for men two weeks ago. Haddadi, who scored 31 points in Iran’s final triumph two years ago, was once again the leading scorer for his side in the final with 19 points against China.
"I could not do my best against Jordan but played well against China in the final. We could have won the match even if Yao Ming would have played against us," he added.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I like Fesenko
But he’s not a star, and never will be. And he doesn’t say he’s a star.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I'll take some attitude - I love some attitude!
But only if its properly channeled. I have no idea about that guy but he’s uge and probably as available (or more) as Fesenko
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Would rather have Fesenko
but Haddadi could work. Now if they wanted to get rid of Gasol on the other hand…
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Don't make me weep!
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
In fairness to Haddadi, he did not write that article
and it was a local press article. Consider the source.
I don’t think he would get off the bench for the Kings.
by betweentheeyes on Oct 16, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
"We are what we are..."
At one point during the KCAL broadcast the Lakers’ play-by-play announcer started talking about how Hawes had gained ten or twenty pounds during the off season to bulk up for defensive purposes. To which Stu Lantz snorted in reply, “We are what we are,” as if to say, Hawes can try to gain has much weight as he wants, but he’ll likely always be a flimsy weak dude. (Did anybody else catch that? I’m pretty sure that’s what I heard.)
Condescending…but true?
A condescending Grain of truth
Hawes will never be a bruiser – no kidding, but he can certainly be an effective post defender ala Vlade, Gasol and others by improving his tools and his physicallity down there. Sure, there will always be moments were he gets pushed around by some big physical Center but he has the skill set to balance that on the other end.
I still think we do need a real bruiser at the 4 or 5, even if its off the bench.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Bron Jockman to the rescue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
The peremeter defense wasnt the problem
It was the interior defense that killed the Kings. Hawes had a rough game and JT also kinda had a rough game too. Hawes looks rusty, but it also looks like he put on some muscle. Lets hope his season is better than his last 3 outings.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
Kinda had a rough game?
JT is a worse interior defender than Hawes is. If you don’t think that, please tell me what game you watch.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I watched the game via a pirate'd stream (it's not like I had a choice anyway)
And it wasn’t really worth watching. The Kings and the NBA have done a terrific job of making this pre-season pretty pointless in terms of effect. Congratulations Kings & NBA! 3 cheers!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
How bush league is it that they dont televise the preseason games ??
I mean, this is an NBA team right? I think it is terrible that NO preseason games are televised! It seems pretty lame that we have to search the internet for illegal feeds to watch a game that should be televised on local tv. The worst part was listening to the 2 Laker Homers go on and on. I am sure they both sleep with Kobe’s jock under their pillows. What a coupla Homers! Makes you thankful for Peaches and Jerry. They are not that bad when compared to some of the yokels they have announcing NBA Games..
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
please don't tell me you are disappointed that the announcers
know which side the bread is buttered on (they know their fan base). We are talking about LA Fans here.
by betweentheeyes on Oct 16, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
A good effort
I’d start by reminding everyone that for the second year in a row, the L*krs have the same core of 11 players returning, they don’t need to learn how to play with each other or learn a new offense (Ron-Ron excepted of course) – and by the way, they’re the World Champs.
But this game wasn’t as close as it looked, make no mistake.
What did we find out though?
1. They didn’t give up, they were down 20+ and battled back. Yes, against the deep L$ker bench but nevertheless. They kept fighting.
2. Tyreke is just what we hoped at this point (at least those with realistic hopes), he can run the team, dish the ball [9 assists!] get to the rim against anyone, and his jumper sucks (30%). Be patient, be supportive, he’s the real deal I think.
3. JT had a good night, he used almost all his fouls but three of them he used intentionally to stop easy shots. Thats a good sign.
4. Hawes can shoot, his post game is still a work in progress, he battles back from bad starts. No surprises.
5. Casspi came own to earth. As I mentioned yesterday in the Mason thread, the Lakers are all wrong for right now, way too strong physically at the 3, way too experienced. I’m excited about Saturday against the dubs.
6. Wow, Donte’ got absolutely no minutes. Why so few for May? (?!?)
7. Beno played very very well again off the bench. He is trying to contribute, earn his money, everything he can do, he’s doing. How about a reset? He’s a somewhat overpaid back-up PG but he is not sulking (at least on the court).
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
PW on Donte
“I did not play Donte. That’s a fact.” Meta text: moving on. Ouch.
*double ouch*
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I know people are going to start accusing me of being Mason if I'm not careful
But remember that he has not played an NBA game since the middle of last season and he is still coming off the back spasms. His offsense was clearly off last night. But I don’t think Artest got off a shot in the first quarter (maybe 1?) and Mason had four assists in 18 minutes. I will be happy with whoever earns the starting job at SF, and would really get a kick if it was Casspi (might come from LPA.) But I don’t know that 4 assists, 3 rebounds, and some pretty decent D in 17 minutes, while playing against the NBA champions and one of the best defenders in the league, is necessarily a bad night for his first NBA game in 9 months.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
I watched the game
Thoughts:
1) Spencer played a lot better defense than people are giving credit for; being asked to play Bynum 1 on 1 with no help whatsoever during the entire evening, and being the big helping against drivers is ridiculous. I assume this “strategy” was done for evaluation purposes. That said, on offense Spencer has a lot of work ahead of him.
2) Our perimeter defense was really pretty good.
3) Our transition defense, including Spencer and the other bigs was atrocious.
4) Kevin played well, defended well, shot badly.
5) Tyreke was very good on defense, and Kobe didn’t embarass him when Tyreke was dribbling and Kobe was on him, which was a good sign. Tyreke has lots to learn about when he drives and finding a good outcome (either shot or pass), but amazing tools other than a jump shot are there. Also, Tyreke is an outstanding rebounder and I love his willingness to pass, he seems like a fun player to play with.
6) Mason played real well, shot badly.
7) Nocioni did his thing, good performance.
8) Beno was trying, played well, I just wish he’d dominate the ball less at times; its like he has to dominate the ball to feel like he’s doing his job.
9) JT was better with his fouls, outstanding in fact given his past issues, but the coaching staff coddled him too. Spencer or one of the other bigs always played whichever Laker big had an actual post game on the floor at any given time. JT always drew the easiest assignment. He played really well though; finished well with his right hand, and got some rebounds no one else on the team would have gotten.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Thanks for the feedback!
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 16, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Shock and Hawes
I really like it when Shock and Hawes are assertive when it come to a contested rebound or a shot attempt around the rim, respectively. It seems like Thompson is content enough to tip the ball rather than actually collect it.—to be involved with the play rather than make the play. Simiarly, I’d like to see Hawes work to get to a spot on the floor he likes and exploit that. Hawes shots often seem to come too early or too late—either a quick shot out of rhythm or a shot that comes after a few too many post moves. I suppose that—for both players—that sort of recognition will improve with time, but I feel that they might be below average for their talent levels in that aspect generally.
Regarding Noc—I can’t imagine that anyone thought that Mason outplayed Noc defensively, let alone offensively, last night. I like Noc out there at SF, cause he provides that toughness, defense, and outside shooting ability that Cisco would—along with significantly better rebounding. I don’t know what the Mason experiment is all about.
Evans looks pretty sweet out there—relatively few bad passes, more good ones. I imagine that if he can work with his limitiations as a passer he will have average point guard skills relative to other starting PGs—with below average shooting, and excellent slashing skills,rebounding, and defense.
my observations from watching here in LA
(1) Evans: Was the best King on the floor, but his jumper was comically bad. Cringe-worthy. The announcers were shaking their heads at him whenever he’d pull up, and he clanked everything. He did come up with a number of rebounds. Like his nose for the ball and explosion (he took the ball from Hawes and other Kings at times), but a few times he seemed out of position (i.e., what is he doing down on the block waiting for the rebound – shouldn’t he be guarding someone or leaking out?). His drives were competent, his playmaking showed glimpses. He’ll obviously improve as he gains experience.
(2) Thompson: 2nd best player on the Kings. I liked that he was active, and I especially liked how he drew a couple fouls down low. He really found the contact and fought threw it. Would love to see a bit of that fight in Hawes. However, Thompson’s points and rebounds were almost entirely assisted or broken plays. JT isn’t getting anything by design at this stage. Some of his fouls seemed idiotic – the “shove the guy in the small of his back after he has already gone up strong for the layup” variety.
(3) K-Mart: 3rd best. But he seemed to be pressing on defense (lunging into passing lanes) and on offense (too quick to take a rushed perimeter shot). He didn’t seem confident. He seemed self-conscious and unsure of himself.
(4) Noce: Comes in 4th. I liked his activity and how he kept finding himself in the right spot for defensive mayhem. Solid. Also, his beard is thicker, and one sees glimpses of young Kris Kringle from the classic “Santa Claus Is Coming To Town”.
(5) Casspi: Surprised the Prince Casspian lovers are down on him from looking at the box scores. He looked good. Active, and the best parts to me were (a) he was really talking on defense and offense, telling people where to be (either he is a doofus and the vets are going to tell him to shut up, or he is a savant; I’m hoping for savant; (b) he has great length. This guy could be good.
(6) Beno: Yes, he was the sixth best King last night. He looks lighter, quicker and less burdened. He made plays, and he got into passing lanes, and didn’t give up on plays. I also get the feeling he likes Tyreke, personally, now that they’ve gotten out on the court together.
(7) Sergio: He was the Kings best playmaker.
(8) Hawes: He looked like a guy who thinks he’s a whole lot better than he is. He really looked like a weak link for us. I’m getting down on Hawes. He’s got to focus. During garbage time, he executed better, but he looked bad during the first 3 quarters. He often seems out of position, out of the fray. And I’d love to see him pick two offensive moves, and repeat five times each – like post-injury CWebb used to do. Establish some reliability. Establish a couple things you do well enough to bank on.
(9) Mason: Looked lost.
(10) Overall: It was fairly painful. We’ll get better, but right now we seem like a bad team that is trotting out the new kid because none of the other guys really panned out, and next season it’ll be the 2010 draft stud who is the focus…because none of the other guys really panned out. I do think Reke is a keeper, and I like Casspi…but this game left me thinking about a true stud big man in the 2010 draft. Sorry to be a downer.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
It didn't take this game for me
but this game left me thinking about a true stud big man in the 2010 draft.
I like both Hawes and JT as players but I’m not sure yet one or both will develop into starters that can contend for a Championship.
Now, I’m not sure we shouldn’t be looking at FAs instead of the draft for another (proven) big man and use our likely high draft pick for another great young prospect . . . .
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
By the way - who was/is down on Casspi?
I think the l*kers were a bad match-up for him right now and expect he’ll do well against the Dubs tomorrow. I think he loks great, really great for a 23rd pick right now. Whats his ceiling? No idea. But its encouraging that you saw him talking on the court on offense and defense.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
nobody *really* down on him, but the tone of some of the comments implied
this game was a disappointing step back for him – I didn’t feel that way from watching him play.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
He had a very 50/50 game in a lot of ways
He wasn’t awful; he wasn’t tremendous either.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I agree
and I think that looks pretty good for this early. He can play at this level.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep we definitely agree on that
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
We gettting close to a starting line up yet?
Based the small sample size we have and all of its limitations, of which I am aware, including injuries and such. I am wondering if the starting line up is beginning to settle out?
I could see the below – at least for now – given our lack of depth at Center… Some of the backup options seem the most likely to change, but the below could be close to our starting line up given that Garcia is out and Noc should likely fill that spot.
PG: Evan, Sergio
SG: Martin, Beno
- inbetween – could start depending on match ups: Mason
SF: Nocioni, Omri
PF: JT, Brockman
C: Hawes, May
That looks about right to me as things now stand
Mason minutes are the wildcard re: Beno and Casspi
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 16, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually have to disagree with the Title of this piece
As I understood it there was pygmy hurt last night. I mean given the size of the L@kers Beno should be considered a pygmy. And after last year he is really close to being in my goat classification of players.
So, one pygmy pseudo-goat was hurt. Hope not too badly.
Call me a Homer
I believe Hawes had a better game than most here are willing to admit.
First, his reason for missing the Tyreke lob was that his ankle wasn’t totally healed and he didn’t have the lift he usually has. I believe.
Second, even PW stated that Spence did the right thing by leaving Bynum on the 1st dunk, because Kobe had beaten Martin and Hawes had to stop the ball. The lateness of the rotation was to blame for the dunk. Bynums 2nd dunk off the Fisher lob was against JT, but the cause was the same. Fisher took the ball end to end, through 3 Kings, and JT had to leave Bynum to stop the ball.
Bynum got 3 trips to the FT line for 6pts, at the end of the 1st quarter after Hawes left the game. Noc, Brockman, & Omri were responsible for the fouls. Of the 6 trips to the foul line, non were do to fouls from Hawes. JT accounted for 2 and Sergio the last foul. So, even though Hawes got almost no help and had to play Bynum straight up for the entire game, he didn’t foul Bynum once.
Bynum got 16pts in the 1st quarter. Six while Hawes was out of the game & 4 on alley oops, crated when the back court defense broke down. So, at worst Hawes is responsible for 10pts and 6 of those came on fadeaway jumpers away from the basket that Hawes was contesting on and a hook on the right baseline where Hawes had a hand in his face. Sometimes we place too much blame and don’t give enough credit too the opponent for making a tough shot.
Lastly, give Bynum credit. He’s got great size and athletic ability and has been coached by Kareem for the last 2 years. Hawes was playing in his 1st game as a starter this year, & coming off a ankle injury. Add, to that, he’s receive his coaching from Reggie & Natt. Is Hawes a bruiser. No, he’s probable weights less then the average NBA PF. Does he need to get more physical & aggressive in the box? Yes, but give him some time. Hes’ had what 25 games as a starter. The fact that he had more shots down low than outside, means that PW and Spencer are starting to work the ball more inside than ever before. Let’s wait at least until his 2nd complete game before we give up.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 16, 2009 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Sometimes being old means you're wiser than the average child
Or, sometimes it just means everyone else is jumping to conclusions way too early. Great stuff HT.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
You Homer!!!
Hawes did not play like true 5.
This team NEEDS him to be a true 5.
Hence, why Hawes is not the answer.
OH, and ALL or MOST of all Hawes’ “good” numbers came late in the game against the Lakers’ 3rd unit.
Go figure
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Bynum was shooting FT's with 10 seconds left in the game.
Are you saying that the Kings 2nd string of Thomas, May, Brockman, Omri, & Sergio are better than the Lakers backups. God, you really made my day, I thought that we were going to have a tough time this year because we didn’t have enough talented backups. But, now that you’ve explained to me that the World Championship Lakers don’t have any talent beyond their starters, I believe we have the chance to goooo allll theeee wayyy.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 16, 2009 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're on a roll HT
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I watched on KCAL and....
The boxscore does not tell most of the story.
Hawes is obviously shaking off the rust. The concern initially is that he did not look aggressive at all. Any judgment on Hawes must wait until the season gets rolling and his ankle fully heals. However, if Hawes looks this listless in the season it’s a problem.
Interior D was pathetic, but we all know that and hope it improves. I’m not sure how though.
Tyreke, having seen him for the first time with the Kings, is awesome. By far the best all around player. He is the most aggressive rebounder (which is good and bad).
Beno looked like Beno… not very good. He just doesn’t bring much to the table, and I did not like the 3 guard lineup with Beno at the point. The O is way better with Reke on the ball. Even Sergio looked better at the point.
The 3 spot looks cloudy for now. Mason was totally out of it, but he’s getting in shape I hope. They do need someone who can shoot the 3 at that position for Reke kickouts. Caspi’s stroke looked much better than I’d heard.
Oh, and what did Donte Green do to Coach Westphal? Did DG give Westphal’s car the Bobby J treatment? In a sea of average 3’s how could Donte get 0 minutes?
Overall, the lack of interior D and cohesion make it appear we could be in for a long season. Watching Reke and Kev may make it all worthwhile.
Rotations haven't been decided yet
Some of the lines so far this year have been atrocious. But, PW can’t be sure how people are going to play with each other under game situations until he tries them out. Even the season opener rotation isn’t going to be the same all year.
PW said he tried diagraming rotations prior to games and he didn’t like the way it worked out. He prefers to substitute on the fly and go with his gut. The starters are fixed except the SF spot, which will probably vary week to week until someone steps up or Cisco comes back. This is Sports reality TV, and PW is going to vote a different player off the bench each week.
Beno or Sergio at backup PG are both ok, but Sergio is a better distributor and cant shoot so don’t expect him to play any SG. With Tyreke & Beno on together, I don’t know who’s playing PG at any given moment, which is great if the opposition can’t figure it out either. But, the 3/4 rotation is going to be situational for the entire year, unless we find another 5.
It’s preseason, “No Worries, Be Happy”
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Here’s a little song I wrote; you might wanna sing it note for note….In every life we have trouble, but when you worry you make it double. so don’t worry be happy…..
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
"Observation: Spencer Hawes was more effective from beyond the arc than anywhere else."
This “observation” says it ALL!
This is the sole reason the Kings will have ZERO success against teams, this season, that play ‘inside’ on offensive; which by the way, defines most team’s play.
Spencer thinks he’s a 3 NOT a 5. Here in lies the problem.
Spenc can be as talented as all get out, BUT when the guy doesn’t believe or play like he’s a 5 and the Kings need him to be a true 5, then all he offensive talent means SQUAT !
The Kings ought to seek out a legit Center. Hell, at this point I wish we still had Miller; Miller would have a good veteran Center for this young group.
Spenc is not the answer, not yet.
Is this a repost, I seem to remember you saying the same exact thing before?
Spencer shot 50% from beyond the 3 and slightly less than 50% for the game. So numerically your correct. But, he only scorer 6 pts beyond the 3, and 12 inside the 3, so factually your wrong.
For his first full game of the preseason & coming off an ankle injury which isn’t totally healed, and playing in an offense that he has only seen for 15 days, he might be a little rusty and off his game. So, lets cut him down and trade him for an expiring. And, we might as well trade Martin while we’re at it because he can’t shot FT’s worth a dam.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
You can continue to make excusses for this kid.
Obviously, I am injecting some emotion(trade Hawes and all) after last nights beat down.
I’m a fan, that’s a given.
However, this doesn’t change the fact that Hawes MUST believe he’s a 3 because that is how he has played for 2 years now; and he showed no inkling of changing in last nights game.
Thus my argument. Hawes is a good kid and is talented offensively, BUT the kid plays offense like he’s a 3 and he defends like he’s a 3.
We keep hearing that we should give Hawes time, for that is the ‘common answer’ given to Centers (which for the most part I agree), but again, I have not seen Hawes’s game change AT ALL since his rookie year.
So help me understand how Hawes will all of a sudden morph into a true Center?? Which is what the Kings need.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
So exactly whom do you have in mind to replace Spencer Hawes?
I mean, what top flight big that you know about the rest of us don’t?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
But seeing as how you would prefer Miller to Hawes
Obviously you forgot the part where Miller quit on the team and forced the team to dump him earlier than they would have wanted to otherwise. (I"ll give GP & Co. credit though: They didn’t bother fighting the good fight on that one.)
I can’t believe that one pre-season game against the Lakers has everyone in such a tizzy. It’s just the fucking Lakers. It’s not like they’re that important.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
You are missing the arguement
Its not “one pre-season” game.
Instead, its that this “one pre-season” game confirmed that Hawes will continue to play like he has the past 2 years! Like a 3.
I’m not totally dumping on Hawes. Like I said, he is talented offensively, BUT he CANNOT be our 1st option (and “the future”) at the 5 spot. Because he has NEVER played like a true 5.
So, if it takes trading Hawes to bring in a true Center then Im all for it.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not missing the argument
I’m calling you a stupid asshole without saying it directly.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Wow, LOL........
I can see that you have lost your argument and turned into a 4 year old.
Get back to me when you have something relevant to talk about
-Cheers
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Touche
You keep bringing up things worth very little in the long run and acting like it’s important. Me calling you an asshole is direct; you moaning and whining about Hawes makes your basketball points seem as silly as me calling you an asshole. (Not to mention it’s about as worth as an anaysis of a 4 year old. But I digress. Also, I say about because it’s not the 4 year old’s fault you suck at analysis. But I digress.)
Cheers!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Which leads me to this
You’re a Lakers fan right?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
name five “true centers” you’d rather have than Hawes that weren’t top 5 picks in the draft
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Name 15 bigs that are better than Hawes
And by the time you get to 14 or 15, you’re just stating youre preference 4-3. You know that. I know that. These people who are making mass generalizations off a pointless pre-season game don’t seem to realize it. Oh well. Such is life. I can’t wait for the regular season games where Pau Gasol exploits JT’s inside presence, and it won’t matter what Andrew Bynum does. But hey, let’s forget about Pau Gasol being one of the top 20 or 25 players in the NBA not playing last night. Because he’s an overrated baby Spaniard who whined his way outta Memphis.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Why name off any?
What are you basing your “better that Hawes” criteria? Stats? Leadership? Understanding true position(1,2,3,4, or 5 spot)?
Again, the point is he DOES NOT PLAY like a true 5.
So, with that foundation, I can name almost ANY center and that player may just be “better than Hawes”
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke Evans isn't a pure PG
LeBron James isn’t a pure SF. Magic Johnson went against every stereotype a lead pass first PG had. Oscar Robertson was a SG who played PG because he could handle the ball the way very few big G’s ever could. In fact, Robertson was so big he played F at Cincinnati. As did Jerry West at WVU (West Virginia). But hey, stereotypes are great for the so-so players in the league.
The truth is that Hawes has some skills that are on the outside, and the inside. He’s young, needs to get stronger than he is (which can come depending on how diligent he is about it), and seems to be interested in getting better.
Hawes has real talent. In some ways, and ways that translate to being an All-Star caliber player, more than Jason Thompson does. Is that my fault? No. I don’t make the rules. I just call it like I see it. Hawes has his weaknesses. In fact, we’ve stated many of them already. Hell, TZ has stated them many times. Jerry Reynolds has said them many times. Nobody here, except you and a few other people, are really that disillusioned about Hawes. I can’t remember a single pre-season game truly determining a fate of a player the caliber of Hawes before. But, you clearly know more than I.
The reason I bring up the 15 players better is that I was curious who you would rather have than Hawes who isn’t draft eligible (so saying Derrick Favors doesn’t count). I’m curious because you want Brad Miller instead for reasons I don’t quite understand. The reasons include the Kings front office (That’s Geoff Petrie among others) partly moved Miller to give Hawes that spot @ C starting last season. I’m a bit confused how a player so worthless would be somebody that the Kings FO would have such a reasoning towards. Very confusing in fact.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 16, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Can you please spread some of your wise Juddha sage or something
This has gotten beyond ridiculous. That being said, I’ve got to finish my 6 day old arena article.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
In all seriousness
This comment did have me laughing.
our argument aside, you are quick witted and funny.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I think what is missing is an acknowledgement that
while Spence is very young, and nobody should give up on him, he sucks right now. And doesn’t seem to be working hard enough to get better.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Acknowledge that he "sucks"?
Not likely. I’ll agree that he’s not yet reached his potential (and may not), but he doesn’t suck.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
I live in LA, and so I get to see him play infrequently
but he sucked the other night in Vegas.
Maybe I am over-weighing that one game, but man, it was an eye-opener.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Just maybe
It’s hardly a surprise, I think, that most of the over-reaction is from LA fans who haven’t seen as much as Spencer as the rest of us.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Neither did Chris Webber
But, let’s not reality get in the way of your disillusion shall we ilove?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Because repeating is sometimes more effective...
A Center is unique in that he really is used and effective in his one position.
So, the LeBron and Evans comparison is just laughable.
Name me ONE prolific Center in the history of the NBA that did NOT play like a true 5? Or that did not “know” he was a 5.
Let me put it this way, to repeat myself: (from this article)
“Observation: Spencer Hawes was more effective from beyond the arc than anywhere else.”
This says it ALL!
Is this how you want your Center to play Pookey?
Tell me, is a Center supposed to be “more effective from beyond the arc than anywhere else” ?
Like I said, “This says it ALL!”.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Name one profilic C that did not play as a true 5?
Well, I don’t know what a true 5 is. What is a true 5? Yao Ming does not bang a lot inside, and in is, in my opinion, just as dangerous on the perimeter as he is in the low post. I find it so unfortunate that Yao has been injured throughout so much of his career. Similar to Bill Walton without the 2 championship rings unless something really changes.
My point was not to point out G’s (even though that’s what I did) who didn’t fit the “mold”. My point was that what use is a mold? Geoff Petrie knew what Spencer Hawes was when he drafted him. Has Spencer passed my expectations? Somewhat, yes. Maybe not yours. I don’t really care.
I’m done with this topic. Arguing with you is very pointless.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
The Five Centers Challenge
How about seven? None drafted in the Top 5
Amare’ Stoudemire
Al Jefferson
Brook Lopez
Andrew Bynum
Andris Beidrins
Nene
Joakim Noah
and in my opinion you’re asking more than is fair since in many ways Hawes himself is not a “true” center.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
I don't see
how Stoudemire, Jefferson or Nene cures the “true 5” issue, as none of them are considerably more effective in the defensive post than Hawes. Noah and Biedrins cure that (though Biedrins can be handles one-on-one in the low post), but at a considerable expense on the offensive end.
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t mind having most of these guys, but if the conversation is revolving around low post centers on both ends of the court, many of the guys on your list don’t apply. Which I think is the point of this conversation. Replacing Hawes with a “true 5” is much easier said than done.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 19, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention that the Kings never had a chance to draft any of those players at any point
Or, honestly, acquire any of them.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I believe the challenge was
to name five centers you’d rather have than Spencer Hawes who weren’t top five picks.
I named seven, (and I could have kept going). Whatever their defects I think pretty much any NBA GM would prefer Amare’, Jefferson and Nene to Hawes.
Now we’re moving the goal posts to players who are better than Spencer in every phase of the game and who we could have acquired at the time?
jeesh…
BTW, I don’t think Spencer has to necessarily be replaced by a “true five”. I’m not a purist or anything, I just want somebody on the Kings to rebound like a maniac and keep opponents from attacking the basket at will. If that turned out to be a 6’3" latvian shot putter, I say sign him up!
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
That was not my challenge
That said, if Nene, Amare and Al Jefferson are considered “true” centers, then so must Hawes be considered.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I know
That was an answer to a challenge by ForThree.
Personally I don’t make the distinction about “true centers”. What I’m looking for is an NBA big man who can rebound, defend the paint, and make good things happen around the basket.
I didn’t say every one of the guys I mentioned on that list have all those qualities, I was just pointing out that they would all be preferable to Spencer Hawes, and they were all drafted later than the fifth pick (which is what ForThree requested).
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Maybe a true 5 isn't what this team will need down the road
He doesn’t play on offense like a true 5 either…and that’s part of what makes him unusual and intriguing.
This is idiocy – we don’t even know what kind of offense or defense this team will be running long term. Let’s wait and see what a real coaching staff can do before we discard ourselves of a guy that clearly has the talent to be in this league.
It’s not like offensively talented 7 footers grow on trees, you know.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
I don't think anyone is missing Brad Miller's post defense either.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
Or his post offense for that matter
So he wasn’t a true 5 either (just ignore those pesky All-Star appearances).
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
If you haven't seen Hawes' game change
you obviously don’t pay any attention.
The fact is, Hawes will probably be an NBA average center or very close to it, at 21 years of age. He’s a better interior defender than JT right now and two years younger(damning with faint praise I know).
Just because Spencer can shoot doesn’t make him a small forward. Does he have plenty to work on? Definitely.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Let me explain
He his game hasn’t changed because…….
"Observation: Spencer Hawes was more effective from beyond the arc than anywhere else."
Is this how a Center should play?
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
So -
You hate him because he shot 50% from beyond the arc.
OK…
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
I don't hate the kid
The only point I’m making is……. I do not believe he is the future 5 for this team.
I believe this team needs a 5 that plays like a 5. Thats all.
If it takes trading Hawes to reach that objective then I’m all for it
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Saying that he is not the future 5 is one thing
And you may be right, though I’m not ready to pass such judgment on the 21 year old.
Question – how do you trade Hawes and reach your objective? I mean, if he sucks, then you’re going to need to throw in quite a sweetner (Martin? Evans?), or take someone else’s albatross (Cap’n Jack, hello!). Of course, making a deal with the Warriors would solve nothing, since Bynum averaged 22 and 6 vs. the Warriors while Biedrins was averaging 5 and 11, so Beans obviously sucks, too.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Here's an argument I'd rather have
Is Biedrins at his current price or Hawes at maybe half that worth more to the Kings. I would argue Hawes at even his current production would be worth more at half the price because Biedrins isn’t a franchise player up front, and that’s one of the things (of many) that the Kings currently lack.
I really hope you have a front page article dispensing advice. (No pressure.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Point well taken
Very good question.
However, let me be clear. I don’t hate Hawes OR think that he sucks. I believe he is good offensively.
What I’m getting at is that the Kings need a true Center demands attention, on offense and defense, down low.
The way Hawes plays, he is not that guy; and I argue that he won’t be unless he, like Donte, changes his mindset on how to play his position.
That said. A team might find Hawes and this style (playing like a 3 – according to my observations) very valuable. For example, a team that already has height and an established Center, and could use Hawes for a mobile( a 3-like) Center/P.Forward.
The Kings just don’t need that right now. They need a traditional and talented Center. Hope this clears my argument.
Good question about Biedrins though. At this point, you seem to be on point about Biedrins
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 16, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
So which traditional and talented C were you hoping for the Kings to acquire?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
But here's the thing
The Kings as they are constructed today will not be the Kings of two years from now. And there is no telling what the changes in the Kings might mean for Hawes.
It may mean that he does not fit. But maybe he will. For example, if JT were an inch or two taller and a better shot blocker and interior defender, then JT and Hawes could be a formidable 1-2 punch. So is it Hawes’ fault that JT is not taller or a better shot blocker?
I look at Hawes and try to figure out what Divac had that Hawes lacks. And all I can come up with is craftiness and floor smarts, and of course the fact that he was one of the greatest passers at his position of all time. And I doubt that Divac possessed those virtues at age 21, especially the craftiness and the smarts.
I’m not saying that there are not better centers than Hawes. But when you combine price, talent, age and potential, I’m just not sure that there are a wealth of true alternatives.
“True” Centers under 30 that I would rather have would include Dwight Howard, Bynum Biedrins, Okafor and Brook Lopez. I don’t want a guy over 30 – we’re rebuilding. And the other under 30 guys (Hibbert, McGee, Perkins, etc.) have as many unanswered questions as Hawes.
Let’s use Perkins as an example. Let Hawes play with KG, Pierce, Allen and Rondo, and put Perkins on the Kings. It’s no contest who flourishes and who flounders with that change in scenery.
Sometimes we focus so much on what a player is not (Martin can’t play “D,” Tyreke is not a PG, Hawes is not a low post presence) that we completey discount what they can do (Martin is insanely efficient offensively, Tyreke is versatile, Hawes can create mismatches and force his man away from the basket, creating space for cutters, enabling him to run the high pick and roll, etc.).
For me it comes down to viewing the glass as half-full. I’m an optimist. It’s made being a long time Kings fan a lot easier.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 16, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
To continue your Vlade-Spencer theme
There was 2 or 3 passes that Spence made that were absolutely vintage Vlade.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
So, you want him to stop taking 3's because it makes him not a 5?
One comment stands out to me. “Hawes plays like a 3”. If by this you mean he rotates out to the 3pt line and takes 3pt shoots, well, yes he does. If you followed some of PW’s comments, LoveEveryone, you’d know that PW wants Hawes to rotate out and take the opposing center away form the basket. It’s not necessarily Hawes move of choice but a strategy dictated by Coach.
Other coaches would use it too, only their centers cant hit the 3. So, basicly your criticizing Hawes for following his coaches orders. If he were to play like you suggest, he still wouldn’t play like a 5, becasue he would be on the bench for disregarding his coach.
Can Hawes compete physically with the Howards, Shoqs and Odens of the league? No, but not many can. Basketball isn’t like MMA. You don’t put to guys in the same weight class and see which one knocks the other out. Basketball should be about teamwork and skill. That’s why everyone loves the Princeton offense. Because the little guys (the Davids) used the talents they had to beat the big guys (the Goliaths)
I don’t care how Hawes scores, as long as he offsets the scoring of his opposite number. I’m betting Hawes improves his inside game before Bynum improves his 3pt shooting.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I've been beating this drum for a while now.
But Hawes definitely has his supporters in Sactown.
Personally it seems like misspent loyalty. Sure he’s got some nifty moves, he’s a better than average shooter from quite a few spots on the floor and he’s a pretty damn good passer. On the other hand, the kid isn’t quick, he’s got lousy hops, and for a guy his size he sure isn’t very strong.
For those reasons he’s neither a good rebounder nor much of an obstacle in clogging up the middle, and because this is about his physical skill set, he only has so much room to grow in those areas. And of course the fact that he plays away from the basket so much on offense underscores the problem.
The reality is that few teams in the NBA have been getting out-hustled, out-rebounded and just generally mauled in the post like Sacramento has been for the past several years, and eventually even the die-hard Spencer fans will admit that he’s part of the problem not the solution.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on Oct 16, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So -
Now Spencer is responsible for the past several years?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
He's also the 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll
Hitler and the guy who stapled Jesus to the cross.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
ILEO was right about one thing Pook, you make a guy laugh
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Mucho Moss said "part of the problem" not "responsible"
His criticism of Spence was fairly measured. We need some of that around here. We do NOT need members to try to breat down nonconforming views.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
But we need members to beat down conforming views?
So, conforming views are inherently bad and thus wrong and any nonconforming view should be embraced simply because of its opposing viewpoint.
I think we need fewer opinion police.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Oct 17, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
You know
I didn’t say that, section.
But a big share of the responsibility for the Kings getting manhandled in the middle for the past two seasons does fall on Spencer Hawes’ shoulders. (before that a lot of the fault lay with a similar albeit tougher and better developed player, Brad Miller)
That much is obvious and the only question is “when will it get better?”
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on Oct 19, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I fail to see how the last 2 season's fall on Spencer Hawes
I really do. He wasn’t a full time starter until late January last season. 3 months of a mis-matched basketball team and awful coaching equate to getting manhandled? I’m not arguing he’s perfect; hell I’m definitely not arguing that. On the other hand, i really fail to see how he’s culpable for the problems that he was not necessarily brought in to fix.
I especially don’t see how he’s culpable for anything in his rookie season where he averaged 13 mins a night. Any player, regardess of talent or draft selection, that averages 13 mins a night is not responsible for every problem on the roster. Especially when that player is 19 for the entire season.
For a guy entering his 3rd season and just at 21 years of age, I’m not really sure where’s he earned your total cynicism. You don’t like him; fine I can accept that. What I don’t see is the level of blame you place on his shoulders when they were at the very least multiple factors of which Hawes had NOTHING to do with that were greater problems in Kings land the last few season’s.
I agree with your last statement of “when will it get better?” I dont’ think it’s obvious that you blame Hawes for every problem the Kings roster had the last 2 seasons. (In fact, I think that’s dangerous gross over-simplification because you don’t like Hawes style of play.)
I just want to know whom you would acquire at this point who would replace Hawes and satisfy you? Of course, i doubt that player is acquirable without making the Kings roster demonstrably worse. You can’t move forward if you take 2 steps back.
I just guess at this point I don’t see Hawes as the end all be all of everything. But, would I would rather have Hawes than Biedrins, and that’s saying something given how proficient and effective Biedrins is at rebounding.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
OK< pookey
I know we’ve been down this road before, and I really do enjoy the back and forth with you, but are you actually reading what I write on this subject, or just filling it in based on what you think I think?
First, I just said it doesn’t all fall on Hawes. My phrase was “… a big share of the responsibility”. I leave it to you to fill in the percentages that that translates to as you wish.
I also haven’t treated Hawes with “total cynicism”. I’ve consistently mentioned the strong areas of his game, and I just wrote that I think he could develop into a pretty good NBA player on the offensive end.
And like I said, he may improve in some areas and I agree that he wasn’t well served by the last couple of coaching regimes.
By the same token, Spencer hasn’t exactly proven to be on the fast track in terms of coachability or work ethic so far; and you have to admit that athleticism and quickness and the ability to get up off the ground aren’t things that are particularly teachable. He has some fairly serious built-in limitations to his physical skill set, which are a concern.
That said, I really don’t understand this insistence about “OK, wise guy, so who would you rather have instead?”. As if it’s not allowed to criticize a current King unless you can find his replacement.
What difference does it make what some schlub like me on Sactown Royalty wants?
I don’t know about you, but I don’t have any sway whatsoever with Geoff Petrie these days. (Seems like he never returns my calls anymore, ever since I loaned him that $200 bucks last year ;>)
My take is that Hawes has serious deficiencies, while others are saying “Hey, he’s better than you think!” or “Nah, he’s gonna be fine!” That’s about as far as we can take the argument.
But if you just want to goof around and throw out names, I guess I can play that game. There are plenty of C/PF players (and let’s face it, Spencer is as much a 4 as he is a 5) who I think would give the Kings a better chance of getting to the next level.
We’ll forget about the top dozen or so veteran stars and the most coveted younger players, (Dwight H, Duncan, Al Jefferson, Aldridge, Pau Gasol, B. Lopez, Bynum, Oden, Bargnani, etc).
Instead I’ll mention, at the more developed end of the scale: Biedrins, Nene, Okafur, Okur,
And on the up-and-coming side of things: Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah, Mareese Speights, Roy Hibbert, Kendrick Perkins, Andray Blatche, (maybe) JaVale McGee, Marc Gasol.
However, like I’ve mentioned a few times already over the past year or so, the player I’d really want Santa to leave under the tree (and he’s a straight up PF) is Paul Millsap.
Bottom line: we get somebody in here who has more athletic ability, who can play some real D around the paint and who can rebound, and the Kings will be better off all around.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
by Mucho Moss on Oct 19, 2009 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know we’ve been down this road before, and I really do enjoy the back and forth with you, but are you actually reading what I write on this subject, or just filling it in based on what you think I think?
Absolutely. I enjoy giving your opinion to you as I see fit.
First, I just said it doesn’t all fall on Hawes. My phrase was "… a big share of the responsibility". I leave it to you to fill in the percentages that that translates to as you wish.
No that’s all right, you can fill in the percentages on your own. I’m pretty sure you can count.
First, I just said it doesn’t all fall on Hawes. My phrase was "… a big share of the responsibility".
That’s right. You just said that a little while back. And, before that, you said:
The reality is that few teams in the NBA have been getting out-hustled, out-rebounded and just generally mauled in the post like Sacramento has been for the past several years, and eventually even the die-hard Spencer fans will admit that he’s part of the problem not the solution.
Well, when he’s clearly part of the problem and not the solution I’ll be happy to admit that. At 21 and in his 3rd year, I’m not quite willing to admit that yet. (Which is my position. Which has been reiterated multiple times throughout this thread.)
I also haven’t treated Hawes with "total cynicism". I’ve consistently mentioned the strong areas of his game, and I just wrote that I think he could develop into a pretty good NBA player on the offensive end.
If I had to label your opinion of Hawes, I’d say it’s mis-applied in the name of an ideal that you can’t have on a team that doesn’t think along the same lines you do. You’d be better off following Pat Riley. Or Jerry Sloan. Geoff Petrie has not drafted Smash Mouth players since the 90’s. You have 2 options. Either switch to teams with players who do the things you prefer, or go into a time machine and watch that era over & over like Groundhogs Day.
I suppose a 3rd option exists here too. You could live with the reality of this roster. But you wouldn’t do that. Call Chuck buddy. I hear he doesn’t take too well to the modern realities of the stock market. He likes to make money. Charrrrggggeeeee! To the victory may go the spoils!
And like I said, he may improve in some areas and I agree that he wasn’t well served by the last couple of coaching regimes.
I agree with this. No reason to argue about agreement. And, it’s said well to boot.
By the same token, Spencer hasn’t exactly proven to be on the fast track in terms of coachability or work ethic so far; and you have to admit that athleticism and quickness and the ability to get up off the ground aren’t things that are particularly teachable. He has some fairly serious built-in limitations to his physical skill set, which are a concern.
Okay, so, Spencer’s coachability has something to do with with his defending the paint? Et tu Brutus?
Actually, I wasn’t aware that Spencer Hawes athleticism, quickness and the ability to get off the ground were the issue here. And, of course it’s not teachable. (Had I argued that? I don’t think I was drunk, high, and tripping off moon dust when I wrote that. I don’t think.)
That said, I really don’t understand this insistence about "OK, wise guy, so who would you rather have instead?". As if it’s not allowed to criticize a current King unless you can find his replacement.
What difference does it make what some schlub like me on Sactown Royalty wants?
Nope, criticism is allowed. I’m fine with criticism. But, like all things, not all criticism is created equal.
“Four score and seven years ago, our forefathers brought forth on this nation, a nation of aggressive paint mongering shot blocking madmen who did nothing but show aggressive mad dog tendencies to block out any skillset’s like shooting 3’s or the ability to pass….”
“In fact, I, Big Beard Abe decry any 7 footer than has perimeter abilities on the basis that any player with such abilities goes against the grain of a certain strain of Kings fan 150 years yonder….”
My take is that Hawes has serious deficiencies, while others are saying "Hey, he’s better than you think!" or "Nah, he’s gonna be fine!" That’s about as far as we can take the argument.
Actually, I think what most people here who have defended Hawes (those of us who are), are saying that he’s 21, that he’s not a finished product, and that I would like to have an idea of what he’s going to be as a player before I write him off.
Instead I’ll mention, at the more developed end of the scale: Biedrins, Nene, Okafur, Okur,
Biedrins was drafted 11th overall in 2005. Too bad the Kings had the 23rd overall pick that year. Nene? He was drafted 7th overall in 2002. Too bad the Kings had the 28th overall pick in 2002. Okafor? 2nd pick in 2004 (right after Howard). I’m pretty sure the Kings drafted 26th overall and took Kevin Martin that year. Okur? Okur left the Pistons in 2004 to sign with the Jazz for a lot of money. He was also a 2nd round pick who signed with a team that offered him well over the amount he could have gotten with the Kings. Unless, though, you have watched a different Memo Okur, I really fail to see how great of a paint defender he is. I’ve never seen it, but that’s not to say I don’t like Okur for what he does do (which is shoot 3’s actually).
However, like I’ve mentioned a few times already over the past year or so, the player I’d really want Santa to leave under the tree (and he’s a straight up PF) is Paul Millsap.
We agree that Paul Millsap is awesome. It’s so bad that Geoff Petrie didn’t pester that asshole Kevin O’Connor so he would give him up for Quincy Douby. What was O’Connor thinking?
Bottom line: we get somebody in here who has more athletic ability, who can play some real D around the paint and who can rebound, and the Kings will be better off all around.
Okay, but I’m not really sure what that has to do with Hawes. I agree with that; never have disagreed with that actually.So, hopefully this means you’ll jump on the Derrick Favors 2010 bandwagon with me MM.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
wow, pookey
Between the two of us we’ve extended this thread by about three feet! Maybe we should collaborate on a book!
Or we could take over that old Point Counterpoint show: “Mucho, you ignorant slut!”.
I’ll just rebut one thing here. You said:
“Actually, I wasn’t aware that Spencer Hawes athleticism, quickness and the ability to get off the ground were the issue here.”
I think they are the issue, or they should be, and that was the main thrust of my argument. Anybody who’s keeping their fingers crossed, waiting around for Hawes to develop into an NBA all-star should fully grasp that there are very real, built-in physical limitations to his growth as a player. And the Kings fortunes will be likewise limited until somebody can stop opponents from dominating in the paint. Usually that job falls on the shoulders of the center, but hell, maybe little Bron Jockman can do it, or Tyreke fer cryin’ out loud. I really don’t care. I’m more than happy to let Spencer continue to step out there, 15 feet from the basket, showing us his Fred Astaire moves as he creates a shot, as long as somebody on this damn team can give us some interior defense and rebounding, because for a couple of years now it looks like we’re defending our own basket with one of those little windmills on a miniature golf course.
Also, in terms of missing out on the big men I listed, sure I’m aware that we couldn’t have acquired most of those players in the draft (although a couple of the other names on my list were certainly available). I wasn’t aware that I was not only supposed to name players who I think would be preferable to Hawes but also figure out a way to acquire them.
Still, there are other ways to get a player. I seem to recall serious talks about Petrie adding Nene (who apparently he likes a lot) in a trade about a year ago.
I’ll research this Derrick Favors kid and you can expect me to join you on the bandwagon shortly with a six-pac in hand.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
So who do you want?
And, you have to actually be able to acquire this feller while you’re at it. I’d be curious what you had to say on this one.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Why give solutions or provide examples?
Let’s just complain for the hell of it. It’s much more fun that way
The future begins now...
Easy, Champ. Mucho Moss is entitled to his opinion.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Wasn't really for Moss
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions as long as you can back it up with some intelligent arguments.
This blog is too smart to have people saying “Hawes sucks,” “Trade him for a real center,” or “he’s not a real 5,” and not expect someone to call them out and try to get into a smart argument.
In my opinion, Spencer is the best center in the NBA. I guess I’m entitled to my opinion so no one should argue with me about it.
The future begins now...
Because this blog is "too smart"
Just because one says, “who would you have replace Hawes? Ha? Ha?” , does NOT make him “smart” or intelligent.
LOL, that is laughable!
“and not expect someone to call them out….” WOW, what a “smart” comment or rebuttal to the argument.
OF COURSE, no one can say right here and now, “oh ya we’ll trade Hawes for Biedrins, Kaman, or whoever”
Show me ‘the list’ where all the teams in the NBA put their “players up for trade” before the season- in case you didn’t know, and I know how “smart” you are and how “smart” this blog is, but there is NO SUCH LIST.
NO team EVER knows who they could get (or who to replace Hawes) UNTIL they put that player on the trading block; publicly make it known that the player is up for trade.
Then the offers come in. You got it?
See, I thought you and this “smart” blog understood that! I obviously made a mistake.
The focus of the argument was that Hawes plays like a 3 and that he is not the future 5 for this team.
The argument was NOT, “well, here is the list of players to replace Hawes”. You follow?
BUT just to humor you, I would like to put Spencer on the trading block just to see what kind of offers we’d get, or to see what kind of Centers that play like a 5 would be available.
P.S. – Has anyone every told you how SMART you and this blog are??
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 17, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you told us
Why in the world Spencer needs to play like a traditional 5? Just because you find it visually appealing? Or do you believe that’s really the only way to win a championship?
I’m trying to understand where you are coming from, but I’m not sure I can dumb myself down enough.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Oct 17, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
Had to Rec that last line.
LovesEveryone has kept repeating the same “Hawes isn’t a 5, and plays like a 3” forever it seems. HE/She refuses to give examples or explain why he/she thinks that way, Or, why it’s important for Hawes to play like a 5 and not like a 3.
I’ve decided to simply ignore him, I suggest you do the same. I’ve got a game to go to , and I’m looking forward to watching our SF/Center play his heart out.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Have a good time HT
Know that we are all expecting good recaps from you and Aykis (no pressure).
And as for the “smart” fellow, ignoring is the best policy.
The future begins now...
Just ignore this comment and me, for its too hard to sustain a relevant disagreement
YA, me too, I totally have to Rec that last line, you can’t dumb yourself down enough. LOL, wow, that is classic! Totally Rec that man. Ya!
Okay back to reality.
Do you really need me to explain to you how a traditional or true Center plays OR should play? Truly you know. Even I won’t take you for that much of an idiot.
I will help you understand using the ‘mobile quarter back’ argument. That is, having a QB’s mobile game in college translate in the NFL.
See you can’t name one prolific QB in NFL history that was a great ‘mobile’ QB; in other words, a QB that can win consistent games and go deep into the playoff using his feet instead of pocket passing.
A mobile QB works for college but not NFL. Its because a QB or a ‘true’/‘traditional’ QB in the Pros makes majority of his plays from the pocket, and when needed, can use his feet. This has been tried and tested to be true over and over again! Its how QB win.
Now, carry this analogy to the NBA. ‘True/traditional’ Centers have ALWAYS been successful playing down in the “pocket” or down low. This too have been tried and tested to be true over and over again.
Observe how today’s successful 5’s play (and don’t get caught up with their talent level. I said observe “how they play”). Howard, Duncan, Gasol, Shaq, etc.; they ALL make their living, and help their teams win, by playing under that basket.
Playing under that basket and jumping out to set a screen is how true 5s play in the NBA, AND this has been the formula for success, for both 5s and their teams, for decades now.
Hawes plays away from the basket MUCH more than he plays under it. He takes jumpers and shoots threes before he even thinks about posting up.
So you MUST be making the argument that Hawes is going to recreate the way a 5 plays the game, right?
Hawes is going to be the first ever successful 5 to NOT make his living down low, right?
Ehhh Rec me!
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 17, 2009 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions
And Vlade Divac
If you think that Vlade “made his living down low,” then you don’t know Divac.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Jenna Jamison
made her living down low. And quite well.
by betweentheeyes on Oct 17, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah but
Divac was very strong and considerably more athletic than Hawes. Vlade was a good rebounder and a very good defender most of the time.
Hawes… not so much.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Divac was also 30 years old when he came to the Kings
So, yeah.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
He was?! I thought he was 42! ;>)
Spencer Hawes will never be the player Vlade Divacs was, and you know that as well as I do, pookey.
Not when he’s 25, and not when he’s 30. It’s not a fair comparison. Vlade was arguably the best big man ever developed in Europe.
Hawes simply doesn’t have that kind of natural athletic ability, and I doubt he has anything close to the toughness either.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Divac averaged 7.5 RPG for his career
After pulling down 10 oer game in his first year here, he never topped even 8.5 for the rest of his stay.
Divac was craftier than Hawes, possibly a result of Vlade’s years of play. I don’t think that I would call him more athletic..
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
really?
You wouldn’t call Vlade Divac more athletic than Spencer Hawes? Wow… I hope Vlade doesn’t read this blog or he may come looking for you, section.
Vlade was no Dominique Wilkens, but he was pretty athletic for a man his size.
Vlade was very quick, great reflexes, fairly agile. Which is why he was a real menace as a shot blocker and he finished his career with almost 1300 steals. He was also much stronger than Hawes.
Again, it’s not a fair comparison because Vlade Divacs was a very exceptional basketball player, but even just compared to most NBA big men Hawes is in a very low percentile in terms of athleticism.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Respectfully disagree
It was Divac’s smarts, not his athletic chops that allowed him to excel. If Hawes had Divac’s basketball IQ none of us would be complaining.
Speaking of complaining, I am reminded of how Magic rode Divac when he first came over. Point being that even Vlade wasn’t Vlade right out of the gate. Check out his first four years. Hmmm.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Divac is an interesting comparison
Kings-era Vlade was actually big enough and strong enough to bang with the larger centers of the league in the post. He really was a big enough presence to make up for C-Webb’s horrible defense at the other frontcourt spot. In no way would I consider Divac to be “athletic” at that point.
Early in his career, his frame and agility was much more similar to Spencer’s, from what I recall. Plus, he was considered more of an offensive type player than a defensive stalwart.
Honestly, I see a lot more potential similarities in Hawes and Divac’s career paths right now than dissimilarities.
The main difference could be Vlade’s excellent passing skills and leadership qualities. Vlade was always the calming influence, and an on-court coach. Don’t know if I could ever see Spencer filling that role.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
"athletic"
is an interesting term for which there’s no exact definition.
But if we’re comparing Vlade Divac to Spencer Hawes, (which again I think is wildly unfair to Hawes because Divac was a truly great basketball player), I’ll just add this, Otis.
Yes, in terms of frame Hawes shares some similarities to photos we’ve seen of Divac as a young player in Europe. And Vlade did fill out considerably by the time he was an NBA star.
Hawes may do the same, although I think he’s actually already about the same weight as Vlade when he was in Sacramento.
And it’s true that both centers are poor jumpers by NBA standards and neither has much lateral motion.
But there is no way you can convince me on the agility and quickness angle. Vlade Divac had very quick reflexes. Not only is this illustrated by his very high number of steals (almost 1300 for his career! More than Ron Artest, Byron Scott, Robert Parish, Chris Webber, etc), and blocked shots, (over 1600, which is 24th all-time in NBA history) but also by his infamous flopping ability.
Try positioning your body in front of an attacking offensive player Miscalculate by a split second and you pick up the foul and land on your ass. But if you’re quick and have good timing you draw the foul, which of course Vlade had down to an art.
Vlade was also pretty agile working around the basket, putting the ball back in the hoop from tough angles, backward lay-ups, etc; which I haven’t seen much at all from Spencer.
In short, Vlade Divac was the better athlete, no doubt in my mind. I’d bet anything that if the 21 year old Vlade could somehow play Hawes at almost any game requiring agility and reflexes, H.O.R.S.E., soccer, ping-pong, whatever, Vlade would win nine times out of ten.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
You could very well be right
I just don’t think there’s a huge divide between the two. And it’s also true that Spencer’s still younger now than Vlade was when he played his first NBA game. So I think there is a lot left to find out about both Spencer’s game and where he’s going to be physically in a few years.
Again, I’m not a huge Hawes fan. I just disagree tacitly with two points that were made here – that you have to have a traditional 5 to win in this league, and that it’s time to trade Spencer.
While this team is in a rebuilding year, I think we’ll have the perfect opportunity to evaluate both of those issues this season IMO.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
From the horse's mouth
Steve Young himself said that “he was not a mobile quarterback”.
During last weeks Colts game I heard the man say it himself ! and the rest of the ‘round table/commentators’ agree with him. He said, “he was a pocket passer”. All the NFL knowhows agree that Young was a pocket passer first.
Last week, Young and the group were discussing the fact that Manning has now joined Young and Warner as the only NFL quarterbacks to open a season by throwing for at least 300 yards in the first five games.
Check it – http://www.sacbee.com/830/story/2246967.html?storylink=lingospot
PLUS, look up Young’s stats. He was DEFIANTLY a pocket passer first and then used his legs when necessary.
Again, the TRUTH or reality doesn’t matter to some of you folks on this here “smart” blog!
-Cheers
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 17, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL........
I don’t know how this ONE clip applies to what the man himself said?
But its cool………..
On a different note. The Kings did play good team ball in tonight’s win.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 17, 2009 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
4,239 career rushing yards
This would rank him around 150 on the all time NFL rushing list.
So he was a QB that could run, just like Spencer is a center that can shoot threes. Hey, we agree!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
LOL, nice!
ya, okay then we agree. Nice!
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 17, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not a 49ers fan (49ers hater actually when I cared about the NFL)
But, Steve Young is the best mobile QB I’ve ever seen. (Yes that includes McNabb.)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Your quarterback analogy is flawed
For starters, you obviously didn’t think about Steve Young. But besides that, are you saying that every Super Bowl winning quarterback played similarly? From Peyton Manning to Trent Dilfer to Tom Brady to Brad Johnson?
My point isn’t that Spencer Hawes is going to reinvent the decision, it’s that I’m not convinced that a center like Spencer isn’t capable of being part of a championship caliber team. Trust me, I’m the last person here who busts out the pom-poms for Spencer Hawes. But he’s an asset, he’s 21, he’s 7 feet tall and he’s skilled offensively. I think the team would be stupid to just discard him without making sure he can’t be an integral part of this team down the road.
What amazes me is that you have found the true secret to winning a championship, and that so many GMs have ignored your sage advice. Every championship caliber team needs to have players play their position in the most traditional fashion, as that is the most direct line to a championship. How has an NBA General Manager job eluded you to this point?
You mentioned Howard, Duncan, Gasol and Shaq. Is that where the list ends? Perhaps you can advise on how to procure one of those talents? Did Petrie miss out on one of those guys by drafting Hawes? Who should he have picked instead of Hawes? Who could he trade Hawes for now to fill this need in your loins for a traditional center?
This will be my last comment on the topic – so feel free to have the last word. But damn, try to bring a bit of actual basketball knowledge to the table when you do.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
LOL.... I mentioned NOTHING about championships. But its cool...
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 18, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
What players are you referring to that would help move the Kings in the direction you seek?
It’s a simple question yet one you seemingly are incapable of answering.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I already address that question
Scroll up big guy and read previous posts. I already answered this “simple” question.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 18, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
So all you want to do is argue Hawes style?
That’s sort of like saying you want to wipe your ass after you take a shit.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Did I not provide my arguments?
I didn’t just say “Hawes sucks”. C’mon, you know that, eduardo.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Good Post Mucho Moss
Here’s why I am optimistic:
“On the other hand, the kid isn’t quick, he’s got lousy hops, and for a guy his size he sure isn’t very strong.”
Jumping ability and quickness aren’t mandatory skills for being a good center in the NBA, and for strength, he just turned 21, he’s got probably 5 years or so of getting stronger ahead of him.
Hawes has skills you can’t teach a Center and you can see the path he needs to take to get the skills/attributes that are teachable.
Will Spencer put in the work and get better? We don’t know. Will he always be at a physical disadvantage matching up with Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum or Greg Oden? Definitely, but that doesn’t mean he can’t grow into being very good based on his skills and the work he puts in.
Its going to take patience though, he’s still only 21. If he’s as bad as he is now at age 23 or 24, I’ll be the first leaping off the bandwagon. For now though, I’m going to spend the season being more interested in the plays he makes, and hope to gradually see improvement in the rate of them, than judging him like he’s a finished product.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
BTW
I’ve never said that Hawes can’t be a good NBA player. He does have some gifts, which I mentioned in my post., and yeah, he is only 21.
However, I view this pretty much the was iloveeveryone does. Spencer’s outside game, which is fairly developed for a young player, is very disproportionate to his inside game, which is lacking, to say the least.
And for the reasons I mentioned I think his upside is pretty limited on that side of the equation. He’s simply never going to be any quicker or more athletic.
Now, if we had a power forward who was a real beast in terms of defense and hauling in rebounds, a Paul Millsap type, for example, that would leave Hawes less exposed. But Thompson, who’s pretty talented, is also going through growing pains himself.
And anyway, a 5 who has a tough time defending the middle and getting rebounds will always have limited value in terms of minutes played. He could be a good guy to bring in off the bench to take advantage of certain match-ups.
I get why people like Hawes. He can be fun to watch creating points and passing and he’s “our guy”. But realistically he’s not the kind of center who will be the starter if and when the Kings become a playoff team.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Whose out there to replace him?
Since these incredibly effective low post beasts grow on tree’s?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
I'm confused somewhat by what I see as a contridiction
You evaluate Hawes’ current skills and deficiency’s well. But, your conclusion that
he’s not the kind of center who will be the starter if and when the Kings become a playoff team. doesn’t seem to be proven.
We aren’t going to be a playoff team this year and probably not next. But you say Hawes is young, so why can’t he improve
Spencer’s outside game, which is fairly developed for a young player, is very disproportionate to his inside game, which is lacking, to say the least.
Also, there have been playoff and even championship teams that didnt’ have a dominant 5. Also, you really thru me when you said
if we had a power forward who was a real beast in terms of defense and hauling in rebounds, a Paul Millsap type, for example, that would leave Hawes less exposed
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
It's late & I'm really screwing up this cut & paste stuff
Nothing anyone has said seems to prove that we need a Center that only scores from the inside and dominates the paint, for the Kings to be a playoff team or a contender. Sure, it would be great to have the next Howard on the team, but if we don’t “Should we just hang it up, call it a season and go home?”. Or, should we use the talent we have and do the best we can to win.
Until Hawes levels the discrepancy between his outside game and his inside game, wouldn’t it be wise to use his outside game to our advantage. Doesn’t making 3pt shot at a 50% clip improve our scoring average, and help draw the defense away from the basket. And, in doing so doesn’t it open up the lane for easy baskets by our guards.
I have no problem with your or anyone else’s assessment that Hawes’ inside game isn’t developed as well as his outside game. I do disagree that he won’t improve his inside game even if he not going to get quicker or more athletic. He will get stronger and smarter, and that should be enough. And, I total disagree with anyone that says that a 5 doesn’t shoot from outside and therefore Hawes isn’t a 5 because he shots 3’s.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 19, 2009 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very nice HT.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Hey, I hope you're right, ForThree
If Hawes far exceeds my expectations no one will be happier about it than me.
By the way, it’s not that I think jumping skills and quickness are the most important thing, but a center just has to be able to defend the paint, one way or another. Either through sheer strength and physicality, extraordinary length, hops, quickness… something! Hawes has deficiency in pretty much all those areas. Now, he has shown some ability to block the occasional shot, which is nice… and he could in theory be coached to play better team defense, which would really help.
We’ll see.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
voice of reason
Moss, you do know how to punch out a good thread.
I couldn’t agree with your observations more.
Like you, I am not fully dumping on Hawes; after all, the kid is young and offensively skill. However, after watching him for these past couple of years(and going back and watching his college games), it is clear that he lacks the inside presence you speak of.
I understand the argument about him being young and that he ‘could’ change or develop an inside game/defense, but players tend to stick to their strengths or comfort zone – and Hawes’ strengths/comfort are jump shots and shooting behind the arch. His strengths are NOT having the ability play under the basket, defend, and rebound effectively. And for these reasons I don’t see Hawes becoming a legit NBA 5.
At any rate, nice observations Moss, and your argument is clear and sound.
Keep on Keep’n on.
by Iloveeveryone on Oct 20, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions
You could be right
Although I doubt it. Spencer’s not high on my list of favorite players right now (I think 2 years of doing his own thing in the offseason has left a bad taste in my mouth). But making grand pronouncements on players based on a small preseason sample size, with a new coaching staff makes you look…well…dumb. That’s the only way I can really put it.
How about we wait and see what we get from Spencer in the regular season? If I recall correctly, he and JT played very well down the stretch last season. Let’s see what they can do with some additional coaching and experience (yes, Spencer is still only 21 years old).
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Oct 17, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stop making sense, you talking head
How about we wait and see what we get from Spencer in the regular season? If I recall correctly, he and JT played very well down the stretch last season. Let’s see what they can do with some additional coaching and experience (yes, Spencer is still only 21 years old).
And that’s rec’d, and that’s a wrap.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Young Vlade Divac
I’m putting it down here because it was going to crop the picture up in the skinny thread.
I’m betting some of his ability to defend the post developed as his body filled out.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
Sure.
Of course the strength Divac added over the years helped him in the post. But let’s realize something. The above photo is from when he played with KK Partizan Belgrade. Partizan is the last team he played for in Europe before coming to the Lakers in 1989, and that means that he’s somewhere between 19 and 21 years old here, and only one to three years away (depending on which season the photo was taken) from beginning his NBA career.
Divac was not substantially bigger when he started playing in Los Angeles, yet he was almost immediately a force to be reckoned with on both ends of the court. When he became a full time NBA starter in the 1990-91 season Divac had 106 steals and 127 blocked shots. He could disrupt opponents as a defensive player from an early part of his NBA career, and that wasn’t just because of his physical strength but (again, let me emphasize) because he was quite quick and fairly athletic with excellent reflexes.
Divac was known for his mobility and he was a good ball handler who could dribble the ball up court if need be. In short a pretty good athlete, especially for a man his size.
As it mentions on his wiki page, Vlade Divac finished his career with over 13,000 pts, over 9,000 rebounds, more than 3,000 assists and more than 1,500 blocked shots. The only three other players to do that in NBA history are Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Hakeem Olajoawan and Kevin Garnett. That, Kings fans, is some extremely lofty company, and points out that Vlade is very close to being Hall of Fame worthy.
Wishful thinking is fun and I hope Spencer improves and has a nice career, but the kid is simply not in the same class of athlete or basketball player as Vlade Divac, and I don’t care if he bulks up to 280 lbs.
He doesn’t have those kind of natural born physical gifts. End of story.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Spencer Hawes isn't Vlade Divac?
Goddammit, I did want to see if he would buy this half lit cigarette off me. Oh well.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
Yeah, Vlade was great and I never claimed that Spencer would be
better or as good, just that comparing a 19-20 year old Spencer to a 30 year old Vlade is not fair.
Vlade’s 2nd season compares fairly well minutes wise to Spencer’s 2nd season. Vlade was22 and Spencer only 20, so keep that in mind.
Vlade: 28.2 mins. 11.2 points, 8.1 rebs, 1.5 blocks, 1.1 ast
Spencer: 29.3 mins. 11.4 points, 7.1 rebs, 1.2 blocks, 1.9 ast
Spencer was 2 years younger, and how many years of professional experience did Vlade have prior to his rookie year? This would’ve been his senior season at UW. Just too early to write him off imo.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Oct 20, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Lorenzo Romar may be an incredible coach
But I’ll take those Partizan Belgrade teams over any NCAA CHAMPIONSHIP teams in the same period. It’s not like Divac was playing solo. Drazen Petrovich, Toni Kukoc, yanno? Partizan Belgrade doesn’t have a reputation for being a top tier developer of talent for nuthin. It’s just that Divac is the best to ever have played in the Partizan machine.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
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