Last minute decision very costly
This isn't about the game or about the team, but more about my experience at the game. So, if your not up to listening to a man whine or aren't interested in saving yourself money, don't read any further.
MrsTops planned to go shopping at Arden Fair saturday evening. My diabolical and ever scheming mind decided that I could make this work out to my benefit. I logged on to Kings.com and searched for ticket availablity. Ticket master showed plenty of $25 & $40 tickets aveilable. But, not being the wealthest retiree around, I decided not to play TicketMaster their surcharge and buy my tickets at the boxoffice.
So, I offered to accompany the Mrs shopping and split up the duties, so that we could finish in time to get to Arco in time to buy tickets and see the game. Well, the plan worked out brilliantly, as my plans so often do. All except for the buying cheap tickets at the box office was concerned.
At the box office, I politely asked for two $25 tickets, "Sorry sir, said the agent, none available". Well, that's ok said I. Give me your best $40 tickets. "Sorry sir, none available", said the agent again. Well, after spending 2 hours shopping, racing thru traffic, and paying $10 to park, I wasn't about to give up now. "What do you have?", I asked. "Well, I just had 2 $68 tickets pop up on my screen. You can have those if you act right away. Otherwise the only tickets available are in the $78 range. "
Now, I'm not one to argue with agents or lower management types. In fact, you can probably call my passive agressive. I'm also not a fool me once, fool me twice, kind of guy. Fool me once and your on my shit list forever. So, it wasn't surprising to MrsTops, that I pulled out my credit card and said "Give the the $68 tickets.
As far as tickets go, Sec 202 ( right of center court upperdeck), row C, seat 3 & 4 aren't very bad. But, $167 ($137 for tickets, $10 parking & $20 food), for a spur of the moment decision, on a retiree's income is just not what I had in mind. I only went because I knew that they weren't sold out (preseason), Tickmaster was showing that $25 tickets were available, and the game wasn't televised. Plus I really like to watch GW vs Kings games because of all the scoring and excitement. And, by brother-in-law is a Warriors fan, so we have that rivalry going.
By the time we got to our seats my blood pressure was so high, my vision was blurry. And, as good as the seats were I was having trouble making out the numbers on the players backs. The play of the lineup starting the 2nd quarter didn't help my blood pressure any. So, it wasn't until almost the end of the 2nd quarter, that my vision cleared and I could relax and enjoy the game.
I don't know why it was that the boxoffice refused to sell me cheaper seats. There were obviously thousands of empty seats in the upper deck. Maybe it's something to do with the contract that they have with TicketMaster. Maybe, they just know that they have you there and can take advantage of the fact that you've already spent the gas money and parking fee, so they can charge you whatever they like.
So as I said, I'm a passive agressive type of guy. I will never again buy last minute tickets to Kings games. I've never bought ticket at the box office before. In the future if I do go to the box office, I will never purchase tickets more expensive than the tickets available at TicketMaster. If I hadn't already purchased one of their game packages, I'd probably be fighting with myself as to whether or not to go to any games at all this year. Shame on you Maloofs, you fooled me once and I won't give you the chance to do it to me again.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
1 recs |
52 comments
Comments
Call ahead next time?
Rather than pay Ticketmaster their surcharge, couldn’t you just call ahead to the box office and purchase tickets for will-call?
by cabz on Oct 18, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I did call ahead
but was told that they didn’t sell tickets over the phone. That I would have to purchase the tickets thru Ticketmaster.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 18, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides there were 11000 people at the game
they weren’t all in the cheap seat. There were hundreds if not thousands of available seats in the back of the upper deck.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 18, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is an awful business practice
And, it’s not surprising.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 18, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry to hear that HT
I really am.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 18, 2009 3:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And I gotta admit
I’m not the least bit surprised either.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 18, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the concern
Although it’s not really a major financial drain. I’ve worked for 44 years and invested wisely. The Maloofs are the losers here. I have over $5000 of disposable income, and the Maloofs are going to get any more of it.
My post wasn’t to solicite sympathy. I just hoped to help someone who might not be financial able or willing to pay the extra cost. I would feel terrible if someone drove all the way to the game, paid for parking, but had to turn around and go home because they couldn’t afford $150 for 2 seats, and I had said nothing.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 18, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
if you got caught by the tickets that were “given away” to state workers. That is, I wonder if they blocked those seats out, forcing you to pay up. Regardless of the reason, it sucks. I am a staunch supporter of the Kings franchise, but this is an instance where customer service really dropped the ball. I might suggest that the Maloof’s would want to hear from you about this. Seriously.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 18, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disposable Income...
What’s that?
by caesarpalacio on Oct 21, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's something that the Wall Street Journal made up in the 70's to convince people that spending money was okay as long as they had "disposable income"
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's money I have hidden away that MrsTops doesn't know about.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 21, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She knows you have a stash
Cuz I’m sure she has a hidden stash that you don’t know about. :P
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you must not be married
she knows he has a cash stash and she lets him think that it is his. It isn’t, and everyone else knows that.
by betweentheeyes on Oct 21, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not married
And proud of it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe in your household it works that way but not in mine.
The last time I looked under my dress, I was wearing the pants in the family.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 21, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in my house I always get the last word
“yes, dear”
by betweentheeyes on Oct 22, 2009 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry about the bad experience HT
and this should definitely be brough to management’s attention. I hope there is a good explanation.
I guess I’ve been lucky that I’ve never had a problem when trying to purchase tickets or when dealing with that side of Maloof Sports and Entertainment. The first couple times I went to Arco I just got the tix from ticketmaster. After, a Kings rep got in contact with me and I started purchasing tix that way. Since then I’ve dealt with different reps and they have all been really nice and helpful.
This year I decided to purchase an 11 game plan and the rep I work with has been cool enough to even kick some free tix a couple times. I definitely encourage anyone who wants to buy tickets, whether is just 1 game or season plans, to go through any of these reps. Again, may be luck, but I’ve always had a good experience when dealing with them.
Again, hopefully they have a good explanation for what happened HT cause it does suck having to pay more, especially for preseason.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 18, 2009 4:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i did the same thing
i drove to the game from roseville which is not that far but still…
they said that they only had $79.50 tickets available ..
so i left
i was pissed
by 31_FLAVAS on Oct 18, 2009 7:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Really really sorry to hear about this.
However, I doubt it’s the Maloofs but more of Ticketmaster. I’ve decided a long time ago that Ticketmaster is a very very EVIL empire. It’s a monopoly that makes an extra 20 to 50 bucks on meaningless surcharges for every ticket sold. I can barely get tickets at the exact time they go on sale. Their sister ticket broker site, Stubhub is the biggest scam in the world. This is one system that needs to change. It only screws the fans.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 18, 2009 8:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You may be right about TicketMaster being the main culprit
I hadn’t noticed before but there was a $2.50 charge for each ticket. TicketMaster may be operating the box office so that you pay the surcharges whether you buy online or at Arco’s box office. TicketMaster is also very prominant on the end of the stub.
I’m going to take eduardo’s advice and call the main sale office on Monday. I’d like to know if I can order tickets through them. And, if so, how close to game time. Also, if it can be done on weekends and after business hours. Assuming I can pick them up at will call.
Either way, it doesn’t relieve the Kings from using poor business practices. If the only way to get tickets is to pay TicketMaster their pound of flesh, then so be it. But, for them to lie about the price of available ticket, is criminal. Literally, it’s called bait and switch. And, I won’t condon or be apart of such tactics.
For the Kings to ask us to dig into our pocket to support the team is one thing. For them to be partners with a company that reachs into our pockets and takes our money is reprehensible.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 18, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might be a NBA thing too HT
They might not have a choice but to let TicketMaster do this.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 18, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking that too
There’s a good chance every team in the NBA works with ticketmaster for their tickets. I went to their website and it looks like the sell tix for every team. This is the NBA page. I believe this is what JET meant about ticketmaster being a monopoly.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 18, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let us know what you find out when you call
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 19, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I commented on the same thing happening to me
on a different thread. Its just not right.
by kwill on Oct 18, 2009 8:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to hear that HT
but on the other hand, I’m glad to hear that I’m not the only retiree at stR
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
by Bluejohn on Oct 19, 2009 9:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you & HT should go & get your AARP cards in each other's name
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 19, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry this happened to others besides me
I dont think that the Maloofs would have had anything to do with this because they have always been standup owners. On the other hand, I would like to know for sure. If Ticketmaster is the main cause I would encourage everyone to order from the team directly if that is an option. Unfortunately, I don’t know if it is.
by kwill on Oct 19, 2009 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I talked to the Kings sales office today
They said that the box office is operated by the Maloofs and not by TicketMaster. They also said that there is a Facility Service Charge that is added on to the price of the ticket. And the charge varies.
They also assured me that if lesser priced tickets were available at the time I was at the box office, that I would have been offered those. They explained that the less priced tickets sell quickly. And, that they believed that the empty seats that I saw in the lower priced sections were probably season ticket holder that didn’t go to the game.
I found that comment totally obsurd. A local rival, on a weekend, for a game that isn’t being televised. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the number of seats that are actually available for under $50 is less than 1/3 of the total seating. That would mean that of the 11000 people there, 5500 paid less the $50 and 5500 paid more than $50.
I have no way of knowing how many of each priced tickets there are. There would seem to be more seats on the floor than in the 2nd level, And, the seats on the floor are the higher priced seat. So, It is possible that the 6000 unsold seats were the higher priced seats. And, as I said in my original post, I’m not one to argue with lower manager types.
I haven’t decided whether to pursue this any further. I’m considering emailing the sales office and ask how many of the $25 & $40 tickes are actually available each game. Also, It might be interesting to find out what the median price of a ticket is.
My other alternative is to except that there are never going to be cheap tickets available at the last minute. That I need to plan my live game schedule far in advance to control my costs. Or, simply find a different venue for my disposable income.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 19, 2009 2:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I do know that a bunch of seats were given to state workers for free
Perhaps those were the seats. and the state workers just didn’t go?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 19, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would write Gavin Maloof directly
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 19, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How to pay $20 for $10 tickets
After reading this thread, I was motivated to look at the schedule and see what some of the early matchups look like. I am about 200 miles away from Arco and my son is in high school, so that pretty much limits me to the Friday night games. I settled in quickly on the Houston game Friday, Nov. 13 as the first available option and clicked the ticket button.
Last year it seemed like I could never find $10 tickets, but I thought "What the heck, gave it a shot and was surprised with two available in Section 208. The seat doesn’t matter, since we move around anyway and watch most of game in the lower level.
Naturally a $10 ticket isn’t really a $10 ticket, though. Add $2.50 per for the “facility charge” and another $5.25 per for the “convenience charge” and I was up to $35.50. Since I have no choice, I proceed to checkout, give up the card info, etc. and voila! at end game I get stuck with another $4.50 “order processing fee” for a total of $40.
Oh, well, all in all, I am sure it will be worth it. We went to three games last year, all losses, including a real stinker, a 45-point loss to the Celtics, so I am hoping our luck is better this time around. Naturally we will make sure we say hi to Kayte at halftime. I am going to miss Koz, though, since he was real cool and gave my son a nice fist pump, etc.
I’m really looking forward to seeing Tyreke and Westphal and hopefully a bit of a fresh start after the well-documented struggles of the past few seasons.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Oct 19, 2009 10:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Naturally
Because I am cheap, I am having them mail me the tickets. I hope it all works out.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Oct 19, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This whole thing is a crock
It really is.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 19, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you say Monopoly?
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 20, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With 3 hotels on Park Place
And for 2 20$ tickets, it will cost you 40$. Now that’s my kinda inflation!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can relate
I just got married this past May and moved from the Stockton area to the Portland, OR area and I am dealing with the same thing. My wife and I planned a weekend to get away in November and one of the things we wanted to do was see a basketball game. With the Kings not in town until December, we were forced to look at tickets for non-Sacramento games. The problem we are having is that same as the one you just relayed to us—the true cost of the tickets are not the listed price of the ticket with all of the added fees. As a stickler for our budget (which is a small one as a young married couple in this economy), I am now forced to look at “ticket prices” that are half of what we have budgeted to take the extra fees into account.
The other side of it, of course, is that I could go to stubhub and pay a 30-50% markup on the tickets on top of an extra handling fee with the exact same outcome (or perhaps even higher payout for lower value). This whole thing makes me not even want to go to the game…
And yet I have December 15th circled on my calendar to see ’Reke et al come to the Rose Garden… I feel pathetic.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 20, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this crap continues
They’ll squeeze a lot more fans out of the arena’s. Why any team would want to do that is beyond me.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of squeezing fans...
I read an awesome article on ESPN about the Yankees’ new stadium and the prices of tickets there. It goes along perfectly with the idea of this thread.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 20, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sonicsgate mentioned the new Yankee Stadium
It’s sort of like Vegas where the ballgame is sort of an afterthought. The whole point is to spend money on some consumer good or another.
I ain’t doing that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's because they all do it Pookey
and I bet you it’s not just NBA teams, but also MLB teams, and NFL teams. And I would also bet is the same for concerts and other entertainment events. That’s just how this game is played. I’m not surprised
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 20, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true ed
Very true.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To an extent
I was just working on those Dec 15th tickets to see the Kings play in Portland and center court 3rd level tickets were $100 with all the fees.
I saw the A’s play the Tigers—ALCS Game 1—2nd deck down the 3rd base line for that much (with all the fees). For that much to see a regular season basketball game in the nose bleeds is just outrageous.
Yes, there are other tickets available for less cost and I’m contemplating them, but if there’s one thing that is necessary, it’s to be able to see the game. From the baseline you don’t get to see the game at all—I’m not going to pay out $40-ish to not see a basketball game.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 20, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One disadvantage that the NBA has vs MLB
is that it has less seat’s and less games. Hence the somewhat more jacked up prices than what you might get at a NBA game.
The reality here is that the NBA tries to sell intimacy as the reason to jack up their prices.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well intimacy doesn't pay my bills
…so I’m not going to use money that would otherwise go to pay my bills to get it.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 20, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Solution
Never pay more than the minimum price, or as close to the minimum as you can get. Then sit wherever you want.
You may get bounced from your seats once or twice by an overachieving usher, but just go around the other side of the arena and sit somewhere else.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Oct 21, 2009 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But not near me...
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 21, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember
I don’t sit in upper level. I just pay for upper level. So you’re safe up in nosebleed land.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Oct 22, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I grow up
I want to be cool like you
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 22, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just an FYI on opening night tix
I tried getting 4 upper level seats for the game against the Grizz through the rep that I work with and it looks like they don’t have that many left on the system. I’m actually gonna have to go to the Arco box office to see if I can get some of the $10 tix as the rep said he had no more $25s or $40s
If anyone has been debating whether to go or not, you may want to make up your mind quick because it looks like operation sellout is working
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 21, 2009 3:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was able to purchase
two $10 tickets last night (bad seats) but atleast I get to go. You can get them on the Ticketmaster site.
by kwill on Oct 22, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went to Arco's box office
and was able to get 4 10$ tix. They are out of the 25s and 40s for sure though
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 22, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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