What is with Mason at +20?
There has been enormous amounts of discussion about how this team is going to do. Very interesting and fruitful stuff that has educated me. Interesting use of stats to examine the pre-season. One stat that got my attention is the +/- from the last game. What gives with this +20 for Mason? He scored 4 points.
As I have discussed I am a researcher and while, I prefer qualitative over quantitative, I do find value in looking at numbers as they are measurements. Measurements that mean something. That make sense. I don’t, however, find value in numbers that I don’t understand or that I find to be so completely confounded (biased) that they make no sense.
I didn’t get to watch the Kings versus Warriors game. Though I would have been right with Aykis urinating on the back of a certain somebody's seat. You know who you are. Anyway, like many of you probably did, I looked up the numbers from that game. I was just confused to see that Mason had +/- of +20. I know that this is some kind of measurement that means overall the team scored more than they gave up, but Mason didn’t score that much, 4 points. Thompson makes sense as having a +21 as he was just a monster on the boards and scored 20 points. Evan, Martin, and Hawes all had good +/-, but they all were scoring and/or rebounding…
I am just wondering how much of Mason’s +/- is from playing when the right mix was on the floor or did he just make everybody else better. My question is whether on not this +/- statistics is completely biased, useless, or otherwise worthless. Was it that his defense took down the other teams scorers so much that our scoring was way more effective or was it just a function of him being on the floor with scorers who made this possible? Both? I did not see the game or I might have some kind of clue, but didn’t and don’t.
If it was just offense then wouldn’t Kmart have the best +/-, but then his defense gives up a lot so maybe no. It seems that there is more going on here than meets the eye. Can Mason numbers come from some kind of chemistry on the court? Or in combination with other players making this happen as his defense alone should not account for this stat, right?
Can somebody who watched the game or is the guru of +/- make sense of this cause it seems way too confusing.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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38 comments
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That's why you don't pay alot of attention to +/- truthfully
Unless you’re looking at a big chunk of the season (say 50 games). I venture to say this fora variety of reason’s, and I’ll be using Zach Harper’s lineup to point out where I see the +20.
The way +/- is generally scored is how many points a team scores and gives up while a player is on the court. Let’s say Martin is on the court for 6 mins, and the Kings score 10 points while giving up 8 points. That’s how Martin would end up with +2.
If you look at Harper’s lineup data, you’ll notice that Mason in the starting lineup of Evans, Martin, Mason, Thompson and Hawes all had a +13 as a lineup in that particular game. (Not surprisingly, they were the best unit.)
By Harper’s count, there were 20 different lineup’s. Mason was in 8 different lineup’s. (I imagine this will be pretty common.)
As I pointed out above, the starting lineup posted a +13. The 17th different lineup used (Evans, Martin, Casspi, Thompson and Mason) posted a +5 in 2 1/2 mins. (Mason also finished out the game on the court and was on the court for a -2 in that time.)
He also was on the court with Udrih, Evans, Casspi and Thompson, and that lineup garnered a +4 in 2 different stints with about 3:20 of gametime registered.
That’s how he did it. I think it was a combination of playing with the team’s best players and having shooters on the floor who can complement him and not expose his lack of shooting.
That’s why you don’t look at plus/minus for one game. Because there will be plenty of games where it works the other way.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The Bryant Concept
Anybody wearing the number 24 will have a +/- of at least 20. Since Kobe wears that number, opponents will think that the player wearing the number is actually Kobe, which in turn draws the defense toward that player.
It’s science.
What's the past tense for "scam"? Is it "scrumped"?
by swoosh91 on Oct 20, 2009 2:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't really know what to think about +/-
Thus far, I feel like people use it to talk up players they like, and ignore it when it fails to show that a player they are fond of is worth a crap.
I would be interested to see what a player like Doug Christie’s +/- numbers looked like during his years in Sacramento. I can only assume they would be very complimentary, but even if they aren’t, well, that might indicate the meaningless of them. It seems like that stat would easily quantify the value of a player like him, who never gets a play called for him.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Oct 20, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't know about +/-
But his win shares were great. He averaged about 9 WS during his time with the Kings (that means that his presence on the court basically contributed to 9 wins.) Defensive win shares were at about 4.5.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 20, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
descriptive data applied subsequently rather than prospectively to fit the occurrence
never happens. Ever.
by betweentheeyes on Oct 20, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say it with me, people: single game +/- statistics are basically useless.
All Mason’s +/- score for the night shows is that the lineups he was in were more effective than the opposing lineups. It doesn’t necessarily say much about Mason, outside of the fact that the team as a whole played well when he was in. These stats only start to have meaning after a sizable chunk of games.
My question is whether on not this +/- statistics is completely biased
I fail to see how a count stat like +/- could be biased. Uninformative? Sure. Biased? Doubt it. You keep referring to yourself as a stats guy and researcher. Just out of curiosity, what are your qualifications?
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Oct 20, 2009 3:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Never said I was a BB stats expert
I was in fact asking about this because of my lack of knowledge about these stats. Pretty sure I stated that clearly.
by MustangMBS on Oct 20, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My hope is by you asking
It means others won’t.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for your answer above
It was informative without talking down to my ignorance.
by MustangMBS on Oct 20, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you're welcome
But this is a big difference between putting out numbers anyone could get from a boxscore. I hope you understand that as well. I expect there will be things that newer members aren’t as aware with. It comes with the territory as this site continues to get bigger, badder, stronger, with the same 4 inch dick it’s always had. (TWSS, yeah yeah.)
I respect that people don’t know as much as I do. It’s to be understood. i spend far too much time and energy trying to understand this team. On the other hand, I do find it annoying when similar types of content is constantly being argued, re-argued, and what not. We have enough redundancy around here (especially with me commenting) without fanpost’s that essentially double what’s being commented on.
I’ll leave it with this. I look at this blog like a child. You give him a fish, he eats for a day. You teach him to fish, he eats for a lifetime.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give a man a match and he'll be warm for a night
Set him on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life.
by hozr on Oct 20, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes yes
I’d knew you’d understand hozr.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant no disrespect personally
I didn’t understand how bias could come into play in a count stat that isn’t determined subjectively. I’m more fed up with people misusing newish basketball stats and frustrated with the fact that basketball stats are nowhere near as well-understood as baseball stats. Sorry if I was too harsh in my reply; I was under the impression that you were a statistics-based researcher.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Oct 20, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole reason +/- is still heavily in play
Is that it somewhat foreshadows how players interact subtlety, and by extension, have an effect on the game even if stats don’t tell their whole story.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to look at a player where adjusted +/- is a great story of what his effect meant to the Kings
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
That is some intense stuff……………..
by MustangMBS on Oct 20, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No disrespect taken personally
I would say I am a researcher who uses stats. There are lots of different types of research and uses of stats. Not all researchers know much about any of the other types of research. Just hear to be a better Kings fan.
by MustangMBS on Oct 20, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+/- for one game is misleading
+/- is a measure of how much more your team scores against the other team when you’re on the court. A + means your team outscored them with you on the court, a – minus the other team outscored you. If your team wins, then most of the players on the winning team will be positive simply because the entire team outscored the other.
This is why there was a bit of controversy with Kevin Durant getting pissed when his +/- came into question. He’s an amazing player but he’s on a young rebuilding team that is getting better. Young rebuilding teams lose a lot. So naturally, the star of a losing team who gets a lot of minutes is going to have a negative +/-.
As Pookey points out Mason was a starter and on the court for different lineups with a lot of our better players. If he’s on the court when Martin, Evans, and Thompson are all playing great his +/- is effected positively. If they are playing poorly its effected negatively. This is why adjusted +/- is a better metric. It takes into account who a player plays with and who they play against.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Oct 20, 2009 4:27 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Good info
As I stated I don’t know really much about BB stats even though I have a Master in a research related field and about 10 years of experience as a researcher. I even get paid for it despite my ignorance of BB stats. I have no problem saying I am ignorant of something if it helps me get better informed. Thus, I am saying I don’t know jack shit about +/- and want to understand it better. I appreciate your contribution to my further BB Stat edumaction.
It seems, from the above, that the +/- stat is really a line up stat or better put a team stat that shows the effectiveness of all who is on the floor at any one time. If this is correct then this is really a way of looking at the team as much as or maybe more than you are looking at an individual’s performance.
The problem with the above, if correct, is that this stat is presented on an individual level. It would seem that this stat can be completely biased by the team. Durant’s situation would seem to be consistent with that…
It would seem that this means the way this stats has been used is over 50+ games to sort out all of the influences of the team and get a picture of the individual’s performance. As over time the player will play with many line ups and that should kind of sorta make it more valid… Or should I say less biased, cause from a stats perspective it is, but then almost all data has some kind of bias. All data is dirty.
Thanks! I will have to look up the adjusted +/-.
by MustangMBS on Oct 20, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you really want to start knowing more
Go to True Hoop and that +/- post regarding Kevin Durant. Then start spending time at the APBR board. I suspect you’ll learn quite a bit from reading that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 20, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but you guys crack me up today
If this were ‘Reke with a +20, everyone would be saying how amazing he is and how +/- makes lots of sense. When it is someone most of you don’t believe in, despite PW’s comments to the contrary, +/- doesn’t mean squat. Now, I will readily agree that one game’s +/- are virtually meaningless. But . . . why is there a +20? For this one game it is because mason was able to slow down their scoring while staying out of the way and letting our team score on offense. When he was off the floor, their team scored more and we scores less. That simple.
Remember, we don’t need five scorers on the floor. Especially when we have a back court capable of 45+ points a night, and a double double machine of a PF. Dislike Mason all you want (and believe me, I’m a huge Casspi fan), but Mason has been starting for a reason. PW has been around too long to just put a guy on the floor because he coached him in the past. He sees something that the numbers seem to be backing up.
As far as Christie, I’ll bet his +/- numbers were great too.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 21, 2009 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DC13's +/- numbers were actually pretty good
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
82games.com numbers if you prefer SB.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that what I said?
I AM hetting old senile here, but not that old.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 21, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hetting is old and senile for getting!
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 21, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO you said they were great
Which makes you wrong. WRONG WRONG WRONG!
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Maybe the they should run public service announcements- starring Francisco Garcia and Sean May (as the expected mother), warning of the dangers of big blue balls. -- JJham15 10/13/09
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
What were we talking about again?
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
by SavageBeast on Oct 21, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How DC13 was pussy whipped
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he was a slave to his religion,
would he be miracle whipped?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 21, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate it when you ask me head scratching questions
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 21, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree a little bit
If this were ‘Reke with a +20, everyone would be saying how amazing he is and how +/- makes lots of sense
This isn’t necessarily true. People who don’t totally understand it would say that but someone would eventually come along and explain it better and how it may not be a great reflection of how he actually performed.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Oct 21, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nevertheless
a starter on a team that loses most of their games, however good they are individually, is likely (guaranteed I think) to suffer in the +/- area.
Now, if used to evaluate a team as a whole or a particular line-up?
maybe
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 21, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+/- is as important to me in determining a player's value
as shoe size is important in determining the beauty of a woman…not very.
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Man hands, however…
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Oct 21, 2009 3:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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