Must read SI.com: Opposing Scout blistering analysis of the Kings roster

by Holmdel on Oct 22, 2009 9:15 AM PDT Comment 57 comments

The analysis is harsh, but credible. For some it will be a welcome jolt of reality to the STR community, where too often it seems that we are losing the forest for the True Shooting percentage.

Here is a taste:

You can't give Martin the ball at the top of the key and tell him to go get you a basket. What he needs is a good point guard to set up shots for him. He doesn't necessarily run the floor either, so he doesn't usually get a ton of transition baskets other than from leaking out. As a defender, he always draws the worst offensive threat on the other team. He lacks toughness and he's not really a go-to guy. He is an extremely hard worker in the offseason, there's no doubting that. But he's not a high-energy guy, and in addition to everything else it has always stunned me how he's able to score so well with such a long, exaggerated jump shot.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/basketball/nba/kings.scout/#ixzz0UgJGesJp
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(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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fanshot

by babasin on Oct 22, 2009 10:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And delete this while you're at it

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 22, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahhh, now I understand the diff b/w Fanpost and Fanshot

Won’t happen again.

Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.

by Holmdel on Oct 22, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A) Good

B)Thanks for passing this along.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 22, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Evans, Casspi, and May hopefully exceed these expectations. I think they will. And I think the league will be surprised. Evans has a learning curve, but he is further along than people thing. May has a chip on his shoulder, and Casspi will blow everyone away by the end of the season.

I agree about Andres. I am not sure what contender would want him. His contract isn’t too bad, though. I think he could fill a role on a team like Denver, which needs toughness and 3 point shooting, or send him east to Philly or Charlotte. Maybe we could get some size back.

Beno needs therapy.

by Ice_9ine on Oct 22, 2009 10:21 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs

I think if the Kings are desperate for size

They might be willing to take Nocioni for Nazr Mohammed. But, i don’t know that the Kings will really want to do that.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 22, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would totally do that.

He’s got an ETO for next year, gives us a solid backup big. Bobcats just lost Raja Bell for at least 4 months too. But I don’t see the Bobcats doing it because it costs them money short and long-term.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 22, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would cost them a total of 500 K more over the next 2 seasons

But, you’re probably right.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 22, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

A million bucks, not 500 K.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 22, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mohammed is a strong option...

Jason Maxiell is also a very good option that may be available and Noc would also fit nice in Detroit. Maxiell doesn’t have the size of a Nazr Mohammed but he plays bigger, he has more heart and he brings another tough guy who plays a specific role of bench warrior, rebounder and shot blocker.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 22, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would trade Nocioni

for Maxiel in a second.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

im not sure i like Maxiell

He reminds me too much of a young Kenny Thomas.

I still think the best option is to work with Utah to get Fesenko, even in a 3 team deal.

We could save Utah money by trading Kenny and Nocioni for AK and Fes. Then they could turn around and find takers for Boozer and K9 before the deadline. Or just have that much more expiring.

by Ice_9ine on Oct 22, 2009 12:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

I would love this trade

Kirilenko is a huge upgrade to our starting lineup (his contract is atrocious, but its 1 year less than Noc, and the performance will be much better), Fesenko is a young guy who we’d be able to experiment with as our backup center of the future for the rest of the year.

I really don’t see the Kings picking anyone up worthwhile in free agency so this trade would make me very happy.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 22, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

AK-47 is shooting blanks

It is hard to dissociate the lithe, rangy 5 category stat filler of 4 seasons ago with the erratic, on again off again play that the current Kirilenko displays.

Jerry Sloan coaches tough teams, and since his many injuries, which I get the feeling have effected this once tantalizing athlete between the ears (a different bte, so to speak) #47 has been a $47M guy who gets into games because he is on the team. I don’t believe he is a good personality mix for the Kings young, brash squad.

On the other hand, Kirilenko needs a new environment and may just excel on the right team and be a reasonable semblence of what he once was. It is an expensive gamble and one I hope GP, JL & Co. don’t explore. In many ways he reminds me of Shawn Marion, and I don’t want him either.

by betweentheeyes on Oct 22, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Omri may end up being the same player for MILLIONS less

it’s too high a price to pay to get Fesenko.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Oct 22, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point High Tops.

AK-47 is just too pricey and too manic. Let the Jazz pay the piper for their poor decisions. In the end, this is a team that the Kings will be vying for play-off position within a year or two. Limiting their movement in FA now seems like a good long term plan. Obviously the Kings aren’t the only team that could trade for the guy, I just don’t think trading for an unstable personality who has a tendency to forget how to play when he is unhappy is a good move for a young team.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 23, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A great write up of our guys

A little negative, because we’re fans, but this should be must reading for anyone that cares about the Kings.

I really think this scout did a good job capturing the strengths and weaknesses of our guys. I’d be interested to see if he did his research before or after any of the pre-season games. I would bet before, given his commentary about Tyreke, and I’d be interested to hear how fast the scout’s opinion of Evans is changing given his performance to date. For court vision, and getting teammates involved, Tyreke seems to be exceeding expectations.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 10:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I believe it was yesterday

the Rise Guys had one of the SI guys on, Ian Thomsen maybe. They briefly touched on a piece coming out about the Kings and how some scouts called them awful and how they were going to be the worst in the league again. One of the guys asked if any of these scouts had seen the Kings play in preseason and Thomsen said no.

So take it for what that’s worth as I’m not sure if this is the piece they were talking about. If it is, we are getting analysis from people who haven’t even seen this team play.

The future begins now...

by eduardo_m7 on Oct 22, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Valid point

The last time these scouts saw the Kings, Rashad McCants and Ike Diogu were getting minutes. That said, I think that that everything will need to go right for us if we are to be anything other than a bottom five team this year.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Oct 22, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we will be bottom 5

but not worst. I have Minnesota and New Jersey being worse. If everything goes right for us and wrong for others, I could also see us better than Milwaukee, New York, and possibly even Golden State if their teams dysfunction continues.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 22, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with national reports on the King's

Most of them say the same thing: “The Kings won’t win many games this year”
to which I say, “No shit.”
For even the most rabid Kings fan it would take a heavy dose of ketamine and a doubling of the games per season to predict a hefty increase to the Wins column this year.

But there is a hell of a lot more going on in Sac than preparation for another year of getting drubbed. There is optimism here for a reason. The King’s FO has cut out most of the cancer, what’s left has four to seven months left of chemo, and the rest of the body is young and growing strong.

I don’t think fans stopped going to games last year because the team lost a lot. If King’s fans know anything they know how to enjoy a loser. I think fans were pissed because the cost of being an at-game fan had sky rocketed, the team was BORING, there was a lot of bad attitude, and no one in the front office seemed to be doing anything constructive about it. Then, this off-season, they did. And now there is a fair amount of excitement about a losing team.

But it would be difficult to know that I suppose if you as a national writer didn’t bother to do any research beyond the stat lines.

by BrooklynFan on Oct 22, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

I really think this guy at least had done his homework as of last year though

To me it looks like the opinion of a professional, that’s why I thought it was interesting.

The commentary was tough at times, but certainly defensible, and its nice to hear comments from a pro that obviously put some effort into it, and its not a 3 sentence quip, or the opinion of someone you have no reason to believe knows anything about basketball.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

that is true

by BrooklynFan on Oct 22, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

BrooklynFan - well thought out comments

lots of gems there. Good stuff. Rec’d

by betweentheeyes on Oct 22, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

well said

rec’d

by Ichiban on Oct 22, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Love this quote for Donté:

… he’s on a team with no role models.

I’ve been thinking the same thing. When we signed Desmond Mason, I was curious if the signing was done to get a mentor for Donté. Anyone know if their lockers are going to be right next to each other?

I’m in the party that thinks Rondo is who he is because of Pierce, Allen, and KG’s influence. I think Donté needs the same.

by wabut on Oct 22, 2009 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

We should trade Donte for Rondo.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Oct 22, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personal responsibility.

Donté Greene does not strike me as a guy who heads advice, regardless of who it’s coming from. Bobby Jackson was a valuable member/mentor of this team last year and Donté went way overboard in his response to rookie hazing.

For me, Greene is an enigma that will take years to develop- if he ever gets there. Also, I would like to point out that the Kings do have leaders surrounding this team- people like Paul Westphal who took a similar talent in Rashard Lewis and mentored him as a father figure, SAR- a true professional, Pete Carrill- one of the most brilliant basketball minds of all-time. Listening to advise, learning from those around, these are personal decisions that a professional athlete either makes or doesn’t. Potential is a dangerous word and although I hope for the Kings sake that Donté reaches his potential, he needs to grow up and take his career seriously for that to happen, regardless of Desmond Mason or anyone else he is playing with, for or against.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 22, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think he is an enigma.

He is just not that good right now. So much of basketball is body balance and agility. Donte is sub par in these areas. So much of basketball is judgement and decision making, and fundamentals like shooting and passing. Donte is sub par in these areas, as well.

One big thing about Donte, in my opinion, is that he has a serious lack of self-confidence right now. I think he is regretting his decision to turn pro, the transition has been very rocky for him. Theus and Natt didn’t believe in him. Coach Westphal obviously has his doubts too. He has basically benched Donte most of pre-season. Also his peers like Tyreke, Omri and JT are thriving, meanwhile Donte is wallowing in a career slump.

If Donte can put together a string of games in which he makes a modest contribution, especially if he can find a way to score a few points, it will be a huge boost to his self-confidence. I don’t think he has a lot of self-confidence right now, since he has yet to prove to himself, or others, that he belongs in the NBA.

by bench_blob on Oct 22, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

casspi > greene already...

greene is gone when his contract expires.

"When talent is roughly equal," said Westphal, "the competitive guys win. You have to have that in this league. Here's a perfect example: We (the Phoenix Suns) drafted Tim Perry and Dan Majerle the same year (1988). Now, if you get a stopwatch for down and back (baseline to baseline sprint), Tim Perry was faster than Dan Majerle. That's a fact. But if you had them race, Dan Majerle won. I can't explain it. Somehow, he had that drive, that fire, something inside him. If you have enough guys like that, your team starts winning again."

by kingsbruins02 on Oct 22, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree with....

One big thing about Donte, in my opinion, is that he has a serious lack of self-confidence right now.

I think he has too much confidence and an unrealistic view of his skills as a basketball player. I think the benching is an attempt to take the “chucker” out of his game. I also think the “I see Donté as a defensive stopper” B.S. that the Kings float out there is a joke and again a way of saying, hey Donté, grow up and stop chucking.

I think he is regretting his decision to turn pro, the transition has been very rocky for him.

I agree that Greene is regretting his decision and this might be splitting hairs but I believe that he regrets this decision because he is no longer the big man on campus and not because his career is veering down the bad side of Del Paso Blvd. I think Hawes missed the college life also but again to split hairs- because he missed the education and atmosphere. Greene misses walking around campus with his practice gear and head band on. He misses Saturday afternoon games on CBS and high fiving every adoring 5-7 white guy biology major walking by him on their way to class. Greene wants to be a star, he just hasn’t figured out that to be that star he has to commit fully, even blindly to whatever Theus/Natt/Westphal- wants from him.

If Donté is a player, he will ask to go to Reno- not to be a star at an inferior level but to work on his game.

Donte is wallowing in a career slump.

A slump implies that he is producing at a lesser level than he has performed at in the past. One or two big nights in a rookie season does not set a standard of competence that one could slump from.

When his career is over and done with, in a year or 12, Donté Greene will be able to look at this time as either a moment when he became a professional basketball player or he will blame the Kings for killing his career. Donté Greene rides the pine for the worst team in the NBA. Three rookies and a second year guys are playing minutes while he is watching. He has to decide now if he is a basketball player or a guy who thinks he is a basketball player.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 22, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs

Rec'd for that last paragraph.

by UCIrvine kings fan on Oct 22, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

both of your comments

are spot on in my opinion jjham. At some point, even a really young guy has to take respensibility for his career. This season we’ll see if Dé3 starts to become a professional or not.

The guy the pressure is really on in this way on the Kings this year is Spencer. He has to play because we’re so thin up front, which means the pressure is on for him to grow up and compete every night. Donte probably has one more year of screwing around available to him before he’s on his way out of the NBA, but the pressure is on Spencer to play like a pro.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

just hope Donte reads that last paragraph

Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.

by Holmdel on Oct 22, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very well said

I was glad to see that the Kings were getting a potential star from the Artest trade a while back. The potential star we have from that trade appears to be Omri. I hope Donte can put it together and figure out his game.

by gtrman1973 on Oct 23, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's just a kid

thats all.
not an enigma.
a kid.

by Ichiban on Oct 22, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

4-2-5-2...is that a haiku?

Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.

by Holmdel on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Predictions

The problem I have with prognosticators is their predictions are based on history, not any respectable attempt to forecast. One thing that can be predicted with certainty is change. It is faulty logic to conclude because we were the worst team last year we will be the worst team again. Look at the primary parts that have changed:

COACH : Theus > Westphal
PG: Udrih > Tyreke
SG: hurt K-Mart > healthy K-Mart
SF: John Salmons > Noccioni/Omri/Mason
PF Mikki Moore/Rookie JT > 2nd year JT
C Brad Miller > Spencer

I see obvious upgrades at four of the six primary spots. The other two questionable spots in my mind are SF and C, which were manned primarily by Salmons and Brad Miller. Neither one of those two helped us win any games. So I see their departure as addition by subtraction.

The criticism of K-Mart is a joke. First of all, he was playing on one leg last year. Second of all, you don’t score 20+ points a game in consecutive years by accident. Third, you cannot indite a guy for an unorthodox style. And obviously if defenders are repeatedly falling for his fakes he is doing something right. His defense needs to improve.

The biggest questions in my mind are bench production, SF production, and performing in 4th quarter crunch time. We need players beside K-Mart to play big when games are on the line. The team needs to win their home games early and often, against light weights and good teams, to establish a new precedent, team confidence, develop individual roles, and have a decent season of 30+ wins.

by bench_blob on Oct 22, 2009 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Its not fair to say

Salmons and Miller didn’t help us win any games. Salmons especially contributed a lot to some of our wins last year; not that I’m saying he’s a great player or anything, but he had some moments.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alligator mouths are facing the wrong direction.

by bignerd on Oct 22, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Always remember

The alligator wants to eat the bigger (or better) side.

And, while I’m sure he’ll get there, I’m not convinced that Spencer right now is better than Brad Miller.

The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.

by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 23, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lookin around the house
Hidden behind the window and the door
Searchin for signs of life but theres nobody home

Well maybe Im just too sure
Or maybe Im just too frightened by the sound of it
Pieces of note fall down but the letter said (wahow)

It was good livin with you (wahow)
It was good (awwawawa, wahow)
It was good livin with you (wahow)
It was good (awwawawa)
Good, good, good, good, good, good

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Oct 23, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

In this case

the alligator mouths seem to be used as arrows indicating succession over time—nothing to do with scale or quantity.

by DustyG on Oct 23, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

criticising K-Mart for not being a franchise player?

He’s a great scorer be he’ll tell you himself he’s not the ‘franchise’ guy
- or getting paid like one by the way.
Harsh words for what was a very very bad team last year. I guarantee there will be more positive things said this year when they see the kids play – win or lose.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 23, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Makes sense

by bignerd on Oct 23, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Am I the only one...

…that thinks the above write is horse radish?

Seriously, martin doesn’t run in transition? Are you kidding me?

You can’t give him the ball and tell him to score???? I mean how many times does he drive from the wing, pull up to the elbow and draw a foul AND ONE.

Not a high energy guy? I mean does he not count the multiple screens he’ll run around to get open? Does that not count?

Seriously, reading that segment made me think, this guy hasn’t watch Martin more than once or twice(probably off-games for him).

The analysis is awful and couldn’t be further from the truth.

Sure I’ll agree he’s not a #1 option, but that’s been established for some time now.

by Smills91 on Oct 22, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I love Kevin Martin

and I think this scout’s criticisms were solid.

With 4 minutes left in a close game, you can’t give K-Mart the ball near the top of the key and be reasonably sure he’s going to score ala Paul Pierce.

He’s not high energy, because he’s rarely on the floor for loose balls, he’s not lately been a plus defender, not a particularly good rebounder.

The only thing I disagree with is I think Martin could be a #2 guy on a good team, #3 is a little harsh.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you on point 2 and 3 but....

With 4 minutes left in a close game, you can’t give K-Mart the ball near the top of the key and be reasonably sure he’s going to score ala Paul Pierce.

Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo….. In the last four minutes, the Kings have had very limited options to work with. If I am an opposing coach, I center my defense around stopping Kevin Martin and letting guys like Mikki Moore, Brad Miller, John Salmons, Beno Udrih etc…… to beat me. Give Martin a couple of HOFers to his play wing men and this might be a totally different story.

Martin has some work to do to be a legit one or two but more importantly, Geoff Petrie has some major work to do to allow this transformation or we will be typing the same thing about T. Evans in two or three years.

No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.

-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)

by jjham15 on Oct 22, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I totally agree with you

When people were killing Kevin for being un-clutch, I think that’s completely unfair, given for the last several years his teammates have sucked horribly and can be mostly ignored.

Let me rephrase, Kevin hasn’t proven he’s a clutch guy yet, and hasn’t proven he’s not.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Oct 22, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kevin has....

…been clutch though, he’s hit MULTIPLE game winners over the past 3 seasons. In spite of no talent around him.

by Smills91 on Oct 22, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This piece on Kevin

Is based on when he played with one good ankle. A lot of this may have some degree of truth for a hurt Martin, but it ignores how he played when healthy.

by MustangMBS on Oct 23, 2009 4:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

NOBODY can be clutch when

In the last four minutes, the Kings have had very limited options to work with. If I am an opposing coach, I center my defense around stopping Kevin Martin and letting guys like Mikki Moore, Brad Miller, John Salmons, Beno Udrih etc…… to beat me.

Even Kobe struggled a few years ago in that situation.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Oct 23, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs