Kings Exercise Options on Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, and Donte Greene
The Sacramento Kings today exercised the fourth-year option on center Spencer Hawes and third–year options on forwards Jason Thompson and Donté Greene, it was announced by Kings President of Basketball Operations Geoff Petrie.
26 days ago
JZiadeh
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Cheap at twice the price
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 25, 2009 4:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good
I was very worried about a week ago (as many already know) that they wouldn’t pick up Greene’s option.
Hawes & Thompson were a given. I just hope Donte realizes that the team could sold his future down the river by not picking up his option. (I think that’s why they delayed knowing they had until Oct 31st.)
Anyway, good news for everyone (especially Donte).
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 25, 2009 5:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Question to the experts
I guess I’m not understanding the renewal rate of the options. Was Spencer’s option renewed last year as well or was JT’s option picked up a year early?
I’m under the assumption each has a similar contract because of the NBA draft’s slotting structure. Come to think of it Donte is a later 1st round draft pick, so does that explain why his option needed to be renewed in his 2nd year?
by bignerd on Oct 25, 2009 6:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
First rounders receive a guaranteed two year contract.
At the start of the 2nd year, the team has the option of pickup up the player for his third year. And then the following year they have the option of picking him up for the 4th year.
The price of the contract is fixed based on where the player was picked in the draft. If they decide not to pick up his option, then at the end of the year the player becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent and can sign with any other team. And, the team that didn’t pick up the option has no rights and get not compensation.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 25, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Donte & JT are in the 2nd year of their guaranteed contract
So, the Kings are picking up their 1st option year of their rookie contract.
Spencer is in the 1st option year of his rookie contract, so the Kings are picking up the 2nd option year.
These contract are usually for a minimum increase (like 8%) over the previous year. At the end of the 2nd option year, next year for Hawes, the team has to negotiate a new contract, and this is where the players start to get their biggest payday.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 25, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great way of saying that HT
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 25, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute!
I thought we had determined that Hawes and Donté suck.
The draft lottery has reinforced my belief that there are not enough bad words in the English language.
by LeaguePassAddict on Oct 25, 2009 7:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
we are a sucky team. Gotta get the suckness going
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 25, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do
We just can’t say so anymore ;)
by MustangMBS on Oct 25, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or perhaps it is a
Don’t ask, Don’t tell policy
by MustangMBS on Oct 26, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure this has something to do with Geoff Petrie sucking
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Oct 25, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Profession NBA staff don't know as much as some fans
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 26, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sam Amick update on Kings Blog Facebook page
“As expected the Kings exercised next year’s options for Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson and Donte’ Greene. Oct. 31 was the deadline to decide. Greene was only one in any doubt at all, and he’s simply too young with too much talent and an… improving work ethic to give up on him. Greene put in the necessary work over the summer and impressed management with his dedication, which is an absolute must as a starting point. He obviously hasn’t impressed on the floor yet for any extended period of time.”
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 25, 2009 9:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So much for work ethic being an issue
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 25, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to bold that part
but opted not to. If people don’t believe Amick then I don’t really know what else we can do.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 25, 2009 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My feeling generally is
Fuck ‘em if they don’t get it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 25, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many notable figures in history
followed that same philosophy. The only problem being that history doesn’t view them so kindly.
Victory is tasty.
by iashwash on Oct 25, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
E.g. Dennis Rodman
What's the past tense for "scam"? Is it "scrumped"?
by swoosh91 on Oct 26, 2009 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still think the "work ethic" thing is a red herring
I’m just worried he’s not an NBA caliber basketball player. However, just based on his physical abilities, exercising his option was pretty much a no-brainer.
What the hell is Brett Favre doing here?
by otis29 on Oct 26, 2009 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are in a pretty unique group
Because I agree with what you say about not being a NBA caliber player.
I always felt he dropped because of personal issue’s with teams, and not skills.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too always wondered why he dropped so much
Your answer is as good as any.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 26, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gilbert Arenas dropped for strange reasons too
So, it does happen.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Carlos Boozer.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 26, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he's an asshole
And the general opinion was that he wasn’t ready coming out of Duke. But then he got minutes at Cleveland, and that was all she wrote.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's hope Donte plays up to our expectations this season.
Hawes has improved but I want rapid progress with at least 15ppg, 8boards, 1.5 blocks. This would make me really happy. He’s steadily getting there.
Hope he has a few more 6 block games this season.
Congrats on these guys continuing their careers here for at least a few more seasons.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 25, 2009 11:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
8 boards?
15 pts? 1.5 blocks? I may be considered a Spencer supporter. but that is a very low baseline for his potential IMO.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm much more concerned about his foul shooting itself, and how many fouls he draws
I’m also equally concerned that he doesn’t shoot a very high %.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
if he does 15/8/1.5 on decent True Shooting % for the year, I think I’m probably pretty happy pookey.
But I don’t think Spencer will be close to a finished product at the end of this year, unless he just turns out to be not that good.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
by ForThree on Oct 26, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was at 11 pts 7 boards and 1.3 blocks
on 29 mins last year 4-3. He’s not that far away from 15 8 & 1.5 already.
I’ll be disappointed if he doesn’t average 9 boards this season honestly.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I might not be upset if he doesn't average 9 boards
Mainly because Evans is a great rebounder for a guard, Casspi hits the glass too, Brockman’s a beast (but he probably won’t see much time), and throw JT and May in there as well.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 26, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're a much better rebounding team than last year.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
by Aykis16 on Oct 26, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think we get beat on the boards more often than not
but yes, better.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 26, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we break even this year.
I don’t think we’ll be outrebounded more times than we beat other teams on the glass. I really believe a lot of our deficiencies will be corrected or improved upon greatly this year.
And yes, I am a homer.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's hoping that some of those boards
are being subtracted from the other team’s total, not one another.
Lower their expectations and rise to met them
by left hand on Oct 26, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way. For one season later? I'm saying for this season, not his FULL potential.
Lemme clarify – I think 15-8-1.5 for this season is a reasonable improvement for Hawes that would keep us all happy. To hope for 20-10-1.8 this season would be setting ourselves up for disappointment. But if he does achieve those numbers, then by all means…
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He averaged 11 pts a bit over 7 boards and 1.2 blocks last season
It’s not a great expectation to ask Spencer to contribute 15 pts, 8 boards & 1.5 blocks.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. I don't want to expect great things like 20-10 etc.
Those numbers (15-8) are respectable will keep the Spencer haters at bay. What do you expect from him this season; 18-11 & 2 blocks?
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't that be great
but if PW keeps splitting up JT & Spencer, I don’t think either will do as well as last year. Their skills compliment each other. So, they might end the season with those type of numbers, I can’t see them averaging numbers like that. Unless GP pulls off some type of magic trick, and finds us a Center who can give us 15 productive mpg.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 26, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think May & Brockman are going to have to soak up the C minutes
Better or for worse. Which means worse.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It won't be worse if they give us quality minutes in more wins.
I guess it hinders the whole developmental process but I’ll take more wins over the gradual improvement of Spencer Hawes any day. He’s going to improve regardless IMO.
U still haven’t stated your realistic expectations of Hawes 4 this season.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
17 9 & 1.5 blocks this season if he stays healthy
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might even be closer to 2 blocks actually
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God, that'd be great if he posted that every night. I hope you're right.
It’s mighty wishful thinking though…
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? 17 a game?
I see 14.0-15.0 pts, 8.5-9.0 rbs. and 1.6 blocks. 17 is really high for a guy who should be a 4th option on a sub-30 win team. Martin should put up 23.5-25.0 and push 2 steals a game; Evans 16.5-18.0, 5.5 ass,6.0 rbs; Thompson 17.0-18.0 w/ 10.5 rbs., 2.5 ass. and a block. If the Kings get these type numbers from the big 4 then I see a slightly better season than my 31 win predicted.
I like Hawes and I hope he develops but I’m not ready to call for his big jump this season- Thompson, yes, Hawes no. Hopefully we see another solid improvement year followed by steady improvements in year 4 and 5. Eventually I see Hawes putting up similar but inflated stats to what we became accustom to from Brad Miller but in a more post oriented way. I think Thompson has moved ahead of Hawes as the high post facilitator and in my opinion that makes JT the 3rd offensive option after Martin and Evans.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 26, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jt is not an offensive 3rd option
There is no way. Hawes had a rough pre-season no question, but that doesn’t mean JT is a better offensive player. No way in hell.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that
But I think that JT is not an option at all in the sense that we need to run 0 plays for JT and he can still average 12-15 points. He will get his by working his butt off.
Spencer situation is a bit different. You got post him up, run the pick and roll, and (dare I say) get him a couple looks from 3. He won’t get going by getting hustle points, others are gonna have to find him, at least at first.
In terms of your averages Pookey, I would gladly sacrficie a couple points and one rebound if we can get consistent numbers. If Spencer can give this team 16-8 consistently every game, I’d be happy.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 26, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with the consistency part for Shawes
And your part about JT getting points without running plays for him is exactly what makes him so valuable. But, there are multiple type of skills, and I think fans are so burnt out on Hawes right now they’re starting to doubt where everybody minus Hawes & Evans stands at the moment.
I can’t wait for Wednesday. God I can’t wait.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I did
Thanks NBN.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
Sure Thompson is going to score the bulk of his numbers on rebounding, hustle and put backs but the fact is, he is running the high post which means the ball will be in his hands more than last season and more than Hawes. Thompson will decide how many times he passes, shoots, drives when the high post play is called for him. Look at the pre-season assist numbers for Thompson and Hawes, I think it tells a story of a shift away from Hawes as a primary offensive cog, at least until he pulls his head out of his ass and by that time Thompson might already be a 20-10 force.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 26, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If 10 games in
this is still happening, I’ll agree. Because given the assist numbers (and there’s a wide gap) of both JT & Shawes, it’s hard to tell.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that big of a difference right now
according to NBA.com JT is tied for 7th among Forwards and Hawes is tied for 10 among Centers in assists.
In Pts, Reb, & Assts, Spencer is 7th among Centers and JT is 5th among Forwards.
With the number of guards we have this year, I don’t expect either one to direct play from the high post. Maybe pick & roll, but I’d expect them to be the recipient of assts not dishing them out. The majority of the assists to come as one of them gets the ball down lose and passes out of the doubleteam to the other.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Kings ran the high post in every pre-season game I watched.
according to NBA.com JT is tied for 7th among Forwards and Hawes is tied for 10 among Centers in assists.
My research says something different during the 2009-10 pre-season- Forwards v. Centers.
Thompson averaged 2.4 assists (tied for tenth among all forwards but good enough for #4 of all power forwards) to Hawes .8 assists (tied for 22nd among centers) a game during those games- regardless of position. This team has quality driving guards. Both Thompson and Hawes are going to have opportunities as either high post passers or pick and roll players with Evans, Martin and Udrih. IMO- Thompson is a better pick and roll player because he finishes stronger, sets a wider/stronger pick and at this point he is passing better. Hawes was a better high post player last season but if the pre-season game plan carries over into the regular season, that is going to change.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 27, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand before you head down, in all my shame
Your numbers are correct. I think I accidentally selected Western Conference instead of All.
But, I disagree with you arguement that JT would run the Pick & Roll better. At least not the high pick & roll. JT is not a threat to shot a 3 from there. So, no one needs to defend him out there.
Also, I disagree that JT finishes better. I can’t prove that Hawes is longer, because there are no combine numbers for JT to prove it. But, there are enough highlights of Hawes finishing on the fast break. He has more lift than JT, (maybe just my opinion) , but if you remember the play where he got hurt last season, he got up pretty good.
Neither player is very good if they have to put the ball on the floor. Of the two, JT really only wins the battle in quickness.
I admit that JT did make some interior pass from during the preseason, but he played more minutes. And he played more minutes without having Spencer on the floor with him than he did last year.. But, as you pointed out Spencer was by far the more prolific passer last year, so I tend to believe that the disparity this preseason, is more by chance that by design.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The single greatest pick and roll tandem of all time is Stockton and Malone.
And in a 19 year career, Malone shot a total of 308 threes which averages out to about 16 a year. The high post or the pick and roll should never be run outside the arch with a big because it allows too much time for the defense to collapse on the play.
Like Malone, Thompson is a wide body with strength and power going to the hole- a key element to the pick and roll. Thompson is a finisher on the move where Hawes is more of a low post finesse scorer. Hawes easily has 5 times the moves of Thompson. Hawes has post moves, double post moves and length but he is not a finisher yet. If I want to enter the ball into the post for an offensive set, I give it to Hawes. If I want to run a pick and roll, I give it to JT, the guy who a) sets a bigger pick and b) busts his ass to the hole for power dunk before weak side help comes.
Thompson ran the offense from the high post in pre-season. I watched him do it myself. He hit cutters and found the open man for three’s. Interesting stat of day: During Thompson’s rookie campaign he averaged 28.1 minutes a game, 1.1 assist and 1.78 turnovers. During this pre-season Thompson averaged 28.9 minutes, 2.4 assists and 1.71 turnovers. What does this tell me? Jason Thompson- using the pre-season and its small, 7 game sample size has found a way to integrate the high post passing game into his repertoire without increasing his turnover numbers.
Oh, and Thomson averaged 28.9 pre-season minutes while Hawes averaged 26.5- hardly a stat to hang your hat on. The answer to this whole puzzle IMO is that Hawes and Thompson are a perfect tandem. A strong power player who will develop into an excellent man on defender and a long finesse player who can block shots. Both players are developing but Thompson just seems more committed right now.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 27, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bow to your Malone example
And, I agree that the duo is a perfect compliment to each other, based on all the points you brought up.
JT isn’t incapable of running the offense from the high post. I just believe that Spencer is the more capable of the two, and JT is the more capable recipient of the pass. I credit JT’s increase assists from the high post, to the fact that he has been on the court without Spencer more often this preseason, then to the fact that he is PW’s choice over Spencer if the two were playing together. But, it’s only my opinion based on last season, and you might very well be correct.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember the Divac, Webber tandem.
Both players fit the high post offense being run by Adelman and they became pretty interchangeable. I still believe that Hawes will be a better high post player while Thompson is a better pick and roll player. Malone never had a competent offensive center so Sloan just pounded teams with the same play again and again. Now the Okur, Boozer tandem shows you what having that extra player can do.
I hate the Hawes off the bench idea that the Kings are floating out there. These two need to play together and grow together. Hopefully it is nothing more than a motivational ploy by Westphal to light a fire under Hawes. If the Kings landed a Milsap or a Lee then by all means mix this shit up but Sean May and Desmond Mason in the same starting 5? Yuck.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 27, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PW can only get away with this because May can play the High Post and be interchangeable somewhat with JT on the pick & roll
Otherwise, it wouldn’t really work.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A favor
Will someone post a good video showing how the pick and roll and the high post work?
by BrooklynFan on Oct 27, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck finding that
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch Nash and Amare for the pick and roll.
For high post, I’m thinking the Rockets and Sixers should be using that a lot this year. Both Adelman and Eddie Jordan have used it a lot in the past.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 27, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every coach in the NBA uses the pick & roll
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All coaches and players do it...Nash and Amare do it very very well.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 27, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here you go-
Thank you Youtube!
High Post. (video 1 of 3)
High post video is way better but I think you can get the point from watching the pick and roll one as well. If not, watch Stockton to Malone clips- almost every one is a pick and roll. Also, check out this video on defending the pick and roll.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 27, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yer the man, jj. That was nice of you.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 27, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Stockton-Malone (quintessential pick and roll duo).
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 27, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jj is making a point he's made before and it's a good one
It appears that over the summer that JT worked very hard, played in Summer League (Spencer didn’t) and has elevated his game past Spencer’s. Last season JT was a rookie and Spence was starting his second season.
In his second season JT has passed Spencer . If JT could get a double double say 16 points and Spencer averages 15 and 8 I’d be thrilled. In the pre season games JT showed off some new aspects of his game, it looks at least for now that Spencer regressed
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
by Bluejohn on Oct 27, 2009 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evidentially you haven't followed all of JT's interviews
JT admitted that he might have taken too much time off after his first 82 game season. He blamed his poor conditioning for his poor performance in VSL.
Has JT performed better than Hawes in preseason. Yes, but there is always a but, Hawes by PW’s own word s is working hard. And, Hawes had the misfortune of injuring his ankle. So, take the performance with a grain of salt. Check NBA.COM. In the PTS, REB, & ASSTS catagory Hawes is 7th among Centers in the preseason, and JT is 5th among Forwards. Pretty close for me to make a difinitive evaluation.
One question. What new skill have you seen from JT this preseason? Better use of his left hand, better low post moves, better dribbling? Or, is he still just the hustle guy, who scores off of put backs and set ups, and still can’t create his own shot.
I only saw the scrimmage, two home games, and the Lakers game, so I’d like to hear what improvements others are seeing.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm..
I would say that JT is for sure a hustle guy, but it isn’t fair to just say that is all he has going on.
I think that his BB IQ is going up. He is playing smarter. He is better moving away from the ball, doesn’t dribble after every rebound, and is learning how to use that big body of his to better effect.
I think that he moves better in the rhythm of the game and actually like that his points are assisted because that shows he is taking what the offense provides him. His put backs weren’t there last year and neither was his taking it to the hole. I think that has improved and he is getting more points because of it.
He still needs that left hand, but already was a good dribbler. Overall, I think he has improved and developed a lot. Also, he does not seem to need Spencer in the game to play well while I am not sure that can be said for Spencer. I think he may need JT more than JT needs Spence.
All that said, I still think they play better together because they have overlapping talent and are a more complete low post presence together than apart.
I also don’t think that comparing them is really a great idea cause they are just different, have different games, and really Spencer is injured. Though at the same time it is JT starting at Center and not Spencer so that says something. Is that just due to the injury? Not according to official statements…
by MustangMBS on Oct 27, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JT's always had a high BBall IQ
But he doesn’t have any low post skill I’ve seen as of yet.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me rephrase.
From what I have seen he is applying his BBall IQ better. He is playing smarter. People can have a IQ off the charts, but have to learn how to apply it. I think he is getting there.
by MustangMBS on Oct 27, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct
about JT being able to score without Hawes, but just not as much. JT is still going to get his tip ins and oop dunks, but without Hawes on the court, JT is going to draw all the defensive bigs.
I have no problems with JT’s current skill set or what he brings. My main point, is that he isn’t a PF that you can give the ball to, 15 ft from the basket and let him score on his own. If he backs his man down into the paint which he doesn’t do well, he doesn’t have the lift or low post game to score consistently. He’s even less likely to create his own dribble and drive to the rim for a dunk.
42% of his entire offense last year came on tip ins and Assisted dunks. 45% of his shots we outside jumpers which are pretty good. But, with 55% of his offense coming around the basket, he still shot less than 50% field goal percentage.
100 % of his dunks are assisted. He only makes 50% of his tip ins.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also greatly inflates his o-boards by all the mised tip-in's too
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no
OK, I agree with much of your post on JTs weaknesses, but don’t know how you can say he will score less without Hawes on the floor.
JT played the preseason without Hawes and scored 13.9 pts. His career is 11.1 pts.
So unless I am completely daft, a possibility, it would seem that he has scored more in preseason without Hawes on the floor than last season….
But then again that WAS last season and probably can’t be used… Lord knows I want to forget it. Still, that is all we have to go off of for now. That damned small sample size problem. I guess time will tell.
by MustangMBS on Oct 27, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm basing it mostly on last season
In March & April, JT had two 20 pt games & Hawes had 8. JT averaged 13.1ppg & 14.1ppg & Hawes averaged 15.6 & 14.6. And, then this season, on JT’s 20/20 game, he only scored 4pts & had 4 rebounds when Hawes was on the bench. In the Portland game when Hawes didn’t play JT got 2pt. And, in the last 2 games, when Hawes came off the bench, and they didn’t play hardly at all together JT got 14pts, & 15pts. I feel if Spencer isn’t occupying the other teams best low post defender, than JT will. And, he just won’t get as many open shots down low.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Interesting breakdown of the scoring. It could be, but then there are those two games.
I wonder what was going on those two games where JT got 14 and 15.
by MustangMBS on Oct 27, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The OKC we blew them out early
Sergio was dishing out dimes like they were candy on Halloween. The Utah game, I didn’t see so it would only be a guess.
But, based on the fact it was Utah, JT probably got half of his pt from the FT line. Utah has a lot of bigs and Sloan doesn’t allow easy baskets, sot they foul alot.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 27, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Pretty close to accurate. I saw the Utah game, but couldn’t remember. I looked it up. JT made 8 points from the field and 6 points at the free throw line.
I looked up the OKC play by play and it looked like 3 or more layups, a dunk, and some change.
Time will tell. I still think that Hawes can’t play his game without JT covering down low. Less than JT can’t play his game without Spence pulling low presence out of the post. I think he gets his points either ways, but Spence covering down low means he can’t shoot from the outside.
by MustangMBS on Oct 27, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
You speak of JT passing Spencer like Spencer is the older more experienced player. JT played 4 years of college and 1 year of NBA ball. Spencer has played 1 year of college and 2 years of NBA ball. I’d call it a wash.
A similar dynamic exists between Omri and Donté. Greene has 1 year of college and one year of NBA, but Omri has 3, 3+ years of non-NBA pro ball. Who’s really the most experienced?
Just some food for thought.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Oct 27, 2009 5:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Omri and Donté but...
Spencer Hawes was given the advantage of an extra season with both Brad Miller and Pete Carrill. 82 games plus pre-season with a former All-Star who plays a similar game and a basketball HOF coach. Hawes also played his one year in the Pac-10 against some of the best college players in the country while Thompson was playing 4 years against Canisius, Niagra and Marist- sure fire NBA hot beds.
I’m not willing to give Hawes a pass at this point for being young. He will still be young next year and the year after so how are we to evaluate him? Hawes’ uncle played in the NBA, his dad played major D-1 college ball- he was brought up as an NBA prospect. I still believe- like I have stated before, that Hawes has yet to commit to the career of NBA player. When he does I think we will see a major jump in production but until then, I see small incremental statical steps. More than stats though, we need to see this player mature and post solid, meaningful, consistent play on a nightly basis which should help this team improve.
The Kings have no true back up center. Hawes should play 35 minutes a game and have every opportunity to put up stats. Whether those stats help this team improve or not will be dictated by Spencer’s commitment to becoming a pro who produces on both ends of the floor.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
by jjham15 on Oct 27, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I argue with absolutely none of that - well said
Carril though was still retired Hawes’ first year, so all he had was a Mussed up coaching staff and BMiller. (right?)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 27, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theus was the head coach Hawes first year
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right
but yoda didn’ t come back unyil last yr – correct?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 27, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 27, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spence was also
injured for a good chunk of his rookie year, so he doesn’t have a full year NBA experience on JT.
"I'm too weird ta live but much too rare ta die"
by aKingisBored on Oct 27, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
17 9 and 1.5 if he stays healthy...and transforms into a much
much better player overnight
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Oct 27, 2009 6:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
F-E-S-E...nevermind. Agreed.
I’m thinking May will be taking some of their numbers away if he scores like he did in the preseason (as in making his mid-range Jays and occasional 3). The more he scores and rebounds and plays D, the more minutes he takes away from our young bigs (Cpt. Obvious statement). I don’t mind as long as we win.
For some reason or another I really feel like JT is going to have somewhat of a breakout year. He showed a little more potential in Summer League but then he totally went gangbusters in the preseason. I feel like he can only go up from there.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on JT
He has got the drive, intensity, and passion. He is going to really bring it and love every minute of it. Love to see that kind of play. If some of that rubs off on the other players all the better.
The one intangible that nobody is mentioning in all the predictions is chemistry. If that indefinable chemistry starts to gel it is going to be great and thanks in no small part to JT.
by MustangMBS on Oct 26, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JT
that indefinable chemistry starts to gel it is going to be great and thanks in no small part to JT
you could be right about that, he has a chance to be a real glue guy.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 26, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, Mustang and LTG.
Chemistry is everything and that’s the key thing that all these stat-head-experts are missing when they quantify/calculate this upcoming Kings season to be another 21 wins or less disaster.
JT is certainly a glue and character guy. We’re really fortunate to have good guys in the locker room from ‘Cisco to JT to Kevin and all the way to May. I’m sipping the Kool-Aid and damnit, it sure tastes good.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point,
Chemistry is what defined this team in 2000-2003. While we were certainly talented back then, there were many teams with more true talent that couldn’t beat us.
The ego meter on the current roster is definintely in check.
by nothingbutnet on Oct 26, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be happy with 15-8 if
he did it with less than fifteen shots a game.
by BrooklynFan on Oct 26, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Werd. That's what I'm saying.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spencer and JT yes, Donte???
I agree whole-heartedly with the extension for JT and to a slightly lesser extent with Spencer. Spencer has yet to knock my socks off like JT. Maybe it’s a function of his age, lack of playing in the summer league, or ?? Donte hasn’t done diddly poo. I would have waited to see what kind of progress he makes (or should I say if).
Purveyor of Bull Plop
by SayWhat? on Oct 26, 2009 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Diddly Poo???
Has my Grandma been resurrected from the dead?
by nothingbutnet on Oct 26, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just want to make sure you understood
The Kings are not signing them to new extensions. They are just picking up their options for next year. All 3 players are still on their rookie contract and Donte is making less than $1 million (this and next year). The deadline to pick up their options is October 31st so they had to make a decision.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 26, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention any realistic extension for Spencer or JT will include a hefty raise
Keeping them on their rookie contract is what teams want.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Oct 26, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad!
Sorry. Used the wrong term. Meant to say option.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
by SayWhat? on Oct 26, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diddling and sucking
First you guys talk about Donte and Hawes sucking, then we hear about Petrie’s sucking tendencies, and now we are talking diddling! Man this place is getting borderline obscene.
by MustangMBS on Oct 26, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding. If this was about import car models, I'd be totally aroused.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem
Just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same stuff.
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 26, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all my reservations about Donte'
He’s only just starting his 2nd year and its a no-brainer for a team like us, lacking in a lot of depth and physical talent (comparitively) to pick up his option.
As I think Bartenja said in the other thread, Donte’ needs to find a few good things to hang his game on early in the season and build from there.
I think he’s trying to do that, I think the staff is trying to do that and I sure hope they all succeed.
The other two – not even a discussion.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 26, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
for all the negative stuff about Donte, he and the coaches are getting it right now. He needs to find something he does well, so he has a reason to get on the court. That will give him something to fall back on as he develops everything else.
The coaches are simplifying the game for Donte now, which is what he needs, once the baby steps are out of the way, and he’s getting court time because he has a skill to bank on, then we’ll see where it goes.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
by ForThree on Oct 26, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think getting court time is obviously the main thing
I’d be happy if he can get a consistent 10-15 minutes this season. Once the coaching staff puts him in a position to succeed, there should be no more excuses for Donte
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 26, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Casspi may really be a plus for him in the end
some young competition fighting him for minutes, scrambling all over the court, showing how focused hustle and effort can make up for a few things. Being opportunistic, something I think is a strength of Casspi’. Thats what young players or bench players in general are supposed to do, play hard and strike when opportunity presents itself. Bench guys aren’t going to have a lot of set plays designed for them.
That would be great if both ended up growing faster because of it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 26, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be truly awesome
and you are very right about Casspi being opportunistic. I think he is taking advantage of his chances. Credit that to the coaching staff too.
I wonder where Donte would be if he had PW and staff last year. Not saying it would be extremely different, but you can’t help but wonder
The future begins now...
by eduardo_m7 on Oct 26, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, It would be great if next year or the following
We’re arguing who should play ahead of who because they’re both tearing it up – but have different attributes.
Thats a great argument to have.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Oct 26, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you worried he's not more developed
Yes, he was playing street ball 2 years ago. But, then he learned how to play zone in his one year at Cuse. Then he had a whole year under the excellent coaching for future HOF coaches Theus & Natt and their experienced staff. While other young players around the league were limited to the coaching of has bins like Karem & Ewing.
I just can’t understand why our young guns aren’t further along in their development.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Oct 26, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah!!
A whole year! Why do they suck so bad! We should just trade them or get rid of them! Spencer is just a lost cause! Damn, all the wasted time on them! What is their problem anyway…
It was just too easy. Couldn’t pass that up :) Love the sarcasm, LOL Just kidding there HT. These guys will get better. Their lack of coaching and need to develop wasn’t really addressed. Also, Spence just needs to heal up that ankle. He had no movement from his feet up on his shots against Utah.
by MustangMBS on Oct 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How dare you!
Are you trying to tell me that in one season we cant make the ruling that Donte sucks? It’s not like when he came in on the trade he was seen as a long term project! I mean he has had 3 coaches in 12 months, a massive overhaul of most of the team, and is still growing into his body. So what’s the problem?
And dont get me started on that Spencer guy! How could he not average 20/10 after 148 total games! I mean what are the kings getting out of the 3.5 million dollars total they have in these guys this year!
by Hilton on Oct 26, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious. I say it's Kevin Martin's fault.
Not to mention iPod-GATE.
October 28th couldn't come soon enough.
by JETisKing on Oct 26, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Hawes had stayed in school, he's be a senior this year.
Hawes is still young. He still has potential to improve both his physique and his game. He is entering his 3rd NBA season. Many NBA Analysts say that the Third year is usually the time that good players have that “Ah Ha” moment or game and the action slows down for them and they find their groove. Hawes is showing signs of getting stronger (he gained 10 lbs of muscle in the off season, something Brad Miller would NEVER have done…) He doesn’t look like he is wearing roller skates so much playing defense like he did last year. He still has a lot of room to improve on the defensive end. He needs the lower body strength necessary to hold his position in the post against stronger, heavier opponents. His offensive skills are still improving. He can score with either hand and has a post up game he needs to work on. I’d really like to see him work on the baby hook or one handed flip I have seen him use in the past around the basket as a go to move in the post.
Hawes is not the worst center in the Western Conference, and he is getting better. Jason Thompson is also getting better even though this is only his second year. The symmetry between Thompson and Hawes is improving every time they are on the court together. Thompson is slowly becoming a force in the paint. His rebounding has improved and he is showing signs of slowing down near the rim and taking his time. Thompson last year looked rushed when he got near the rim, trying to get a shot off before he got rejected. I think his haste contributed to his problem fouling out last season. He rushed his shots, then went overboard to try and rebound the miss. He also has a problem with refs, arguing every call. He needs to slow down, play ball, and forget about the refs.
I really like Rodriguez, and I think he was a very good FA pickup. We needed an insurance policy in the event that Beno decided not to compete when he lost his starting spot. Rodriguez has looked very good, and if he does come off the bench to rest Evans, the bench squad will have a good point guard. Casspi looks like a player that has been playing professionally for several years. I think if he can improve his defense and is able to defend the small forward position, he might very well be starting at the 3 before the allstar break. His hustle, rebounding, and shooting are sorely needed on this team. I am hoping Greene will find his game and just get after it defensively. He has a nice stroke from the arc and he is listed at 6’11". We need all the size we can get because we didnt bring in any veteran bigs other than Sean May, and he is generously listed as 6’9". Green needs to play team “D”, rebound, and let the game come to him offensively. He forces up too many 3’s that waste possessions. He needs to let the offense work and then take the open 3 if it is there. With ‘Reke and Martin driving and kicking the ball out, Greene might get a lot of open 3’s in the scheme of the offense. But he has to be on the floor for that, and his defense is limiting his playing time. I am glad to hear that his work ethic is no longer an issue. I am pulling for Greene to take the next step. He needs to play well this year or he might not get another chance. It would be great if Greene could mature into a bench player that can back up the 3 and when other teams go small, maybe get some time at the 4.
The addition of Rodriguez, May, Brockman, Casspi, Evans, and Mason is a sign that the Kings front office has pretty much revamped this team. All these new players had nothing to do with the abomination season last year. These are all good players. All of them but Mason and May still have a lot of upside. Mason is a solid defender and another rebounder around the rim. May has a championship ring from NC, and really hasn’t played much because of injuries. There is still a lot of tread left on his tires. In fact, May has played so little because of injuries, he very well might have some untapped upside hidden because of the injury time. I am hoping that he can stay healthy and play like the champion he was that led his team to a title!! May could be a very significant addition. In fact, I believe that Casspi and May are going to be pleasant surprises this year. Both are professionals who have had success in the past and are hungry to regain that winning edge.
With all the roster moves, the Kings have a new young team that should have energy every night. They still have K-Mart, Hawes, Nocioni, and eventually Garcia on the roster. Those guys played hard for the most part last year. All of them have a nasty taste in their mouth from last year. Hopefully the mix of young veterans and young rookies, coupled with a new legit NBA Coach in Paul Westphal, will have the winning chemistry that Geoff Petrie has envisioned for this team. Will the Kings make the playoffs? In the West, which is full of title contenders that all got better in the offseason, probably not. But if they double their win total to 34-35 games, and they are obviously headed in the right direction, I think anyone connected to the Kings organization would take that in a heartbeat. GO KINGS !!
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
by FaStRmAn on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

















