Given that Tyreke is going to be a slashing beast who can pass out to shooters your point is really in the bullseye. There needs to be people on the floor who can knock down threes in an inside out games. Omri’s stroke looked great and I think that he can be a good shooter. I didn’t know he had such good stats, but given what I saw I believe it. I hope PW is listening.. Definitely recc’ed

I mean one of our youngest players is out with ankle issues. Does that mean he’ll be too injury prone this season? Yeah, I know, Mason is older and coming off injuries. But if he impressed Westphal that much in practice, I want to see him on the floor before writing him off. While I’d love to see Casspi earn the nod, I really have fears about how young all of our starting players are, except for Martin. Obviously Garcia is no rookie, but I’ve just never seen him as the wiley vetran how finds a way to get it done.

But TZ nailed this on the head, defense is nice but we need a shooter on the wings to open up dribble penetration. Desmond Mason is not that guy. I’m still not entirely sure why we signed him, and being labeled a “Westphal guy” isn’t a good enough reason and kind of raises red flags of favortism in my mind.

The back spasms thing is worrying. Sure, we shouldn’t label him as injury prone based on 2 preseason games missed, but back spasms are a tricky thing. They’re not something easily predictable and they don’t just go away. It will most likely be a problem during the season, it’s just a matter of how much.

Oh, and I’d be fine with Casspi starting. Just sayin’.

What about Noce starting at the 4, Omri at the 3. That would create a competition between Shock and Hawes for the starting center.

If Shock starts that would give us a bench with Spencer, May, Mason, Garcia and Beno, with Brockman getting fighting May for that spot.

I wonder exactly how open the Kings would be to trading Nocioni as quickly as possible given that Casspi is a potentially better fit in the starting lineup. If he can handle the ball and share facilitating duties with Evans, that makes the Kings better. If he can play with energy, rebound and hit 3’s, those are all things the Kings would have to consider for any SF at this point.

On the other hand, if you’re PW, you have to think that any player will start because they are the best chance for the Kings to win on any given night. I’m not sure that Mason would have given the Kings THAT chance anyway.

If anything, so far, we know that Casspi has leaped ahead from where we thought (at the beginning of camp), Greene is pretty much where he was a year ago, Garcia and Nocioni aren’t as valuable as Casspi is (potentially) by the end of the camp at the SF spot.

What this all could mean is that Garcia could be the first G off the bench, instead of Beno replacing either Evans or Martin in that fashion.

The ripple effects of starting Casspi could not only mean that he’s developed as a player than any of us could thought (a good thing to be sure), but it also means that Donte Greene may have gotten his opportunity to get real rotation minutes sometime this year if the Kings find a way to dump Nocioni’s contract for an expiring deal.

Ripple effects have major impact down the line. This could be one of those ripples. That said, it’s only after 2 pre-season games. It’s too early to really speculate (but that’s why we’re here right?) on all of this.

He just needs some more muscle and a lot more development…

I would LOVE to see Donte’ work out and become a starter. I’d love to see him pull a Gerald Wallace—except for us. But, to say he just needs more of any one or two things seemed very simplistic. At this point, no one knows what position he plays, what shots he can make, what he brings to the table (other than size.) He shot the 3 great in college, so he could stretch the floor at the 3. Except he can’t make threes any more. He has the height to take it to the rim. But he hasn’t shown any toughness. He is tall enough to play the 4, but he hasn’t even been able or willing to post up on threes.

Until Donte’ finds some kind of game, I just don’t seem him deserving of a lot of playing time. Just like Casspi, he has to prove he is worthy of more time when he gets limited minutes.

There are too many SFs on this roster! Maybe two too many, maybe only one.

Decide who you really want to keep so they can actually get on the floor and who the starting and the major rotation guy(s) are will eventually sort itself out.

Hmmm I wonder if we could trade one them for a young center who doesn’t see many mintues somewhere else? Whats that kid’s name in Utah? :)

If it were my choice and I could get some significant talent back I like Pookey would trade Noce and keep Mason as some Vet exp (on the bench). That leaves you with a number of guys who don’t yet merit the starting spot (I believe Noce probably thinks he does and that he’s probably right) who will battle for it – and be better for that battle.

But we don’t need to import other team’s castoffs to be our team leaders. If we keep doing that, then how can we expect our youth to grow into leadership roles?

I believe you learn to lead but only if you are given chances. If Mason is our veteran leader at either end of the floor, then where does that leave Kevin, Jason, Spencer, or even Evans?

Let’s not forget that Westphal was criticized in Seattle for playing washed up vets like Hawkins over future stars like Rashard Lewis. Is that what is going on here, now?

Interesting item of contention this who leads the assortment of players.

One note of interest. Kevin Martin has stepped up. He has started being vocal. His stating that why shouldn’t Evans play PG cause all he has been playing with is SGs who think they are PGs.

Also, on the court. Martin got after Beno for losing his defensive assignment and it costing a bucket.

I would rather see the best player on this team be developed by PW into a leader. This is a guy who works hard and brings it every night. He is to be respected by the other players.

Martin needs to be the leader of this team and Mason could unintentionally push Martin into the background and delay that development if PW tells everybody Mason leads the team.

but have issues with almost everyone in this thread’s conclusions:

What do the Kings need from a small forward?

Ziller emphasizes shooting and defense, which I agree with, but I need to add something to it: playmaking.

If you take Kevin, Evans, JT, Hawes (maybe) as the core of the team, ask yourself, who makes plays of them?

Evans – all accounts I’ve seen and read lead me to believe he’s going to make plays for himself and other people, that’s one playmaker

Kevin – probably one of the best finishers in the game, but even his most strident fans wouldn’t say he’s a playmaker for other people

JT – finisher, probably a good one eventually, will make the plays around the rim and will drain jumpers

Hawes – ahh, here is the crux of the discussion. Is Spencer going to be a playmaker ala Vlade or not? I have no idea, but I think there is at least a small chance he develops into a guy you want to make decisions with the ball.

I believe you need two playmakers on offense to be good. If there is only one, you’re too easy to shut down. Chances are Hawes is not a 2nd playmaker, if that is true, then I think the Kings need more than shooting and defense from the 3, they need a dynamic player to fill that spot.

Let’s look at the 3’s on the roster:

Nocioni – won’t be here when we’re playing games that matter, if he were, I’d say he’s an average finisher and bad playmaker

Mason – too old, irrelevant

Dé3 – jury is still out, but we haven’t seen enough to be reasonably sure he’ll be good at anything yet. Donte has no NBA caliber skills right now. None. Hopefully he takes to defense, works hard, and he’ll be able to leverage that into time and a career.

Casspi – In two preseason games…he’s shown signs of at least growing into a finisher, you can see emerging NBA skills in a ridiculously small sample size.

In the long run, I think one of Casspi/Dé3, JT or Hawes aren’t the final answer unless Hawes really turns out to be special on offense. An unnamed player with All-Star level dynamic skills in one of their positions will have to be brought in before we’re good.

For this season, Mason was brought in to give the young guys someone to work against and be a pro. If Mason is getting minutes, that tells you everything you need to know about the coaching staff’s opinion of our young 3s. Mason is here to make sure the coaching staff can bury the young guys plausibly when they want to. When the young guys earn it, PW will play them unless you just think he’s stupid.

I’d be shocked if anyone in management cared a bit about wins/losses this year, though of course they’d never say that. Its about development, that doesn’t mean 40 minutes a night for our young guys.

Coach Theus spouted a lot of non-sense in his tenure but one thing he was quoted as saying has some validity as it relates to our current SF situation. He made the point coaches do not decide playing time, players decide playing time. If Omri plays like he has in games 1 and 2, he will be too good to keep on the bench.

I personally think Donte Greene’s names should be taken out of the equation. Coming off an unproductive prior season, a dismissive summer league, and scoreless pre-season, he is down so low, he has to look up to see a lizards belly.

That leaves 3 vets and a rookie to choose among as your starter.

Omri is not your starter the first half of the season because he has not seen the league. Let him at least go through the league once, learn players tendencies, speed, strength, and favorite moves before throwing him to the fire. It would be unfair to say to Omri, “you guard LaMar Odom, you guard Carmelo Anthony, you check Kevin Durant.” Hell no. Not from Day One. The more reasonable directive is “you check Odom’s back-up, you cover Anthony’s back-up…”

So that leaves Garcia, Noccioni, and Mason.

Mason is a scrapper, finisher, with veteran presence.

Noccioni and Garcia are streaky shooters, limited athletically, but know the league inside and out.

I disagree with the sentiment about spacing defense at the “3” spot. When Evans drives to the hole, a guy like Mason can be valuable as a cutter on the weak side or baseline. As long as player is moving to an open spot, the PG has that teammate as an option. Also, JT and Hawes will drift outside the lane to free up the paint for Tyreke to score or kick out for open “J”.

I think the intangible component is what I call the “glue factor”. This is a player who adds cohesiveness to the starting unit, through leadership, hustle play, intelligence. Doug Christie was the glue when the Kings used to be good. Can Mason be this teams “glue”? I don’t know. Maybe. I know if Noccioni and Garcia are going to bomb from the perimeter, run hot and cold, provide sporadic contributions, that’s not glue.

One last thing I’d consider is this debate may be non-existent, if you pencil in Garcia as primarily a back-up “2” and Noccioni as a back-up “4”. Then minutes are distributed accordingly:

SG Martin > Garcia
SF Mason > Omri
PF JT > Noccioni

From there, Coach W disperses minutes based on match-ups and who is playing best.

as far as I know, it was only for the 1st preseason game. Mason’s on a none guaranteed contract so I guess we have to start playing him sometime to find out if we keep him. I think we’re a long way away from deciding on our starting 3.

Mason to me is Artest without all the 3 pt attempts. Good defense, can postup & go to the basket. For PW, a coach who was brought in to improve defense and rebounding, to want a player that can help with both is natural. Especially, since he’s on a vet min contract at best. He may not end up being the starter, but the finisher in close games where we need to perserve a lead.

As to TZ’s comment that we need a 3pt shooter at the SF to keep the lane open for Tyreke, that’s one way of doing it, but not the only way. We still have Martin & Hawes as 3pt threats. And, isn’t one of the big complaints last year that we took too many 3’s. That we didn’t attack the basket enough. So, if Mason’s man leaves him to help defend Tyreke, can’t Mason attack the basket.

And, isn’t one of the main criticisms of Donte that he took too many 3’s at the SF position. It would certainly be nice to have one player that exhibited all the talents of Cisco, Mason, & Donte but until we do (and Omri may end up being that guy), PW is going to have to use each based on the game time situation. And, that’s not a terrible situation to have.

I almost never get to play this role.

Now give Ziller his computer back.

I vote for something LeBronesque.

Yes, I’m afraid it’s true. Right or wrong, he has become my new –

we may need to start this or Keon Clarks’ thread over and have a more organized discussion.

What is our lineup at the 2-3 ?

Pfft.

The depth at the 3 was gone.