Until There's a Funding Plan, a Downtown Kings Arena is Just a Mirage

by Tom Ziller on Nov 13, 2009 5:20 AM PST in Arena

Mayor Kevin Johnson continued his crusade to get that prospective new Kings arena built downtown instead of at Cal Expo this week by asking for semi-formal proposals from area developers. According to The Bee, he's getting quite a bit of interest, which is surprising if only because Cal Expo has seemingly received little to no attention from developers.

But ideas on where to situate and how to design a new NBA arena have never been in short supply. It's the funding that matters, which is why Cal Expo has been intriguing: the public-private partnership there allows financing options unavailable to fully private projects. Pulling the public into financing a $500-600 million arena downtown would likely involve taxes, and taxes ain't happening in this town this decade. Johnson told The Bee he'll favor plans which don't include new taxes, but something tells me he'll have trouble finding proposals which don't include new taxes.

A tax for any funding program which includes an NBA arena will not pass in this city or county. Let's hope some developer has a magical funding solution amenable to the private financiers required, the mayor and the Maloofs. I would love nothing more. But I think it's a longshot at that location, given the extra costs and particular parties (like Thomas Enterprises) involved.

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To hell with this, I'm going back to bed.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Nov 13, 2009 6:28 AM PST reply actions

If you build it, they will come.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Nov 13, 2009 6:32 AM PST reply actions

Natomas...........

It has the infrastructure… they have the land… they have the “Pit” which was to be the Football stadium… they have a fairly new practice3 facility and they could build a new arena right there while playing in Archaic Arena… they have the room to add some restaurants/bars… I suspect why the Maloof’s look elsewhere knowing the new locations have many hurdles, when they have the opportunity in their hip pocket already.

Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...

by kromeace on Nov 13, 2009 6:56 AM PST reply actions

The most logical solution...

…is to move the Kings to Stockton for one season while the existing Arco Arena is rebuilt inside the existing shell, similar to what was done down at Oracle.

However, this solution is one that Clan Maloof seemingly wants no part of, probably because they won’t be able to get the Tax Increment Financing to pay for it, and would be on the hook for rebuilding their own house.

Kromeace has it right, tho – the best location for the Kings right now and in the future is in Natomas. The Railyard is a pipe dream, and the Cal Expo plan is a fargin’ joke unless part of that plan is to also completely rebuild the CCF all the way from US-50 to I-80.

by SierraSpartan on Nov 13, 2009 7:11 AM PST reply actions

The shell is too small

its been looked at. The idea is to add restuarants and suites ect inside to generate more revenue and make it more of a ‘destination’ not just for the Kings but for other events as well.
Have you been to other arenas? There’s no comparison – none.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Nov 13, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions

Take it from a Stocktonian

The Arena is in no shape to host Kings games.

I personally would love it, but they’re having a tough time juggling the schedules of the minor league teams with the few events that happen there. The NBA season conflicts with the Thunder and Cougars seasons and would eventually bleed into the Lightening’s schedule.

And all that’s before you get to how horribly managed that venue is and how its small size would price out all the affordable seats (a problem for nearly every upper echelon event they hold there).

That being said, I appreciate KJ being proactive, but he’s really torpedoing the Cal Expo plans a little bit every time he talks about a downtown arena on the Rise Guys. The Cal Expo plan isn’t perfect, but a private-public partnership like that is the only way a facility gets built with any public money.

Dip til I rip

http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com

by Muff209 on Nov 13, 2009 11:22 AM PST via mobile up reply actions

The private-public partnership

Hasn’t that become more of an issue now that the state is looking to possibly sell of some or all of Cal Expo? It’s been a while since we’ve talked about the Cal Expo thing in detail here, but my understanding is that the potential funding of the project that looked so promising in the past is much more questionable now?

Desmond Mason - Untied the balloon in Colorado, forged Obama's birth certificate, and ruined the careers of Omri Casspi and Tyreke Evans.

by otis29 on Nov 13, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions

I'm not totally sure

But I think part of it has to do with just how ambitious the plan was. Bascially, all of our fears about the NBA shooting for the moon with an expensive mega-complex have been somewhat realized after all the developers they brought in to consult them were like “wow, that a great idea and all, but it’ll be very difficult tgo actually do” and people are beginning to balk at that.

Dip til I rip

http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com

by Muff209 on Nov 13, 2009 1:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions

Personally

I like the rail yard location best. I think of how it will interface with other downtown development and restaurants. Then again, I’m not a Sacramento resident and I don’t know all the details (such as freeway access and current parking). If I were to rank the options, I would say railyard, Natomas, Cal Expo.

As for moving to Stockton for one year, puhlease!!! Stockton’s City management can barely wipe it’s own ass, let alone handle something of the magnitude of the Kings for a year.

Purveyor of Bull Plop

by SayWhat? on Nov 13, 2009 7:29 AM PST reply actions

Not that I feel terribly compelled to defend Stockton, but...

…this:

as opposed to:

Thing that exists vs smoking hole in the ground.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Nov 13, 2009 7:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

NICE putback.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Nov 13, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions

Yeah but...

Those venues overran projected costs significantly and the City Manager had to illegally reappropriate funds to get them completey which eventually cost him his job. And that was with a .5% tax increase.

Stockton’s redevelopment should not be looked at as an example of what Sac should do. Period.

Dip til I rip

http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com

by Muff209 on Nov 13, 2009 11:31 AM PST via mobile up reply actions

Muff I know you're a Stockton politics wonk

But you have to admit that one problem with the Kings being in Sacramento, and in the same state as the Bay Area and LA area, is that both of those area’s can get stadium’s built with private money.

You look at John York who has spent all decade trying to get the city of San Francisco to built him a new stadium, and they keep saying fuck you. Getting public financing is always going to be very difficult in California.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 13, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions

Public financing as we know it is over

That was kind of my whole point. Stockton just barely got under the public financing wire before the economy cratered and passed a much more ambitious tax than Sac’s attempted and they still didn’t have the money to complete the projects.

Granted, it’s really comparing apples to oranges since the Stockton situation had the benefit of full backing from the city while Sac’s just barely got that after Fargo hit the bricks. Plus, the Maloofs would manage the new arena a million times better than IFG has down here.

I’m just tired of people pointing to us as an example of how arena’s can help revitalize downtown areas because the whole thing is generally regarded as a massive debacle down here. Downtown is thriving in spite of the Arena and Ballpark.

Dip til I rip

http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com

by Muff209 on Nov 13, 2009 1:32 PM PST via mobile up reply actions

That may be the best point of all Muff

That Downtown’s can thrive without arena’s. But, can a downtown thrive consistently with one is the question? I think that’s one that has to be answered shortly by KJ and the city before people start believing anything said is more than hot air.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 13, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions

i disagree with the majority it seems

That’s what I do.

CalExpo is the most realistic solution. Downtown would be great, but it won’t happen. I think Mayor Johnson is just trying to get something going somewhere, and obviously it is cool to have a downtown arena, and it would help the economy in the long run.

But creating a whole new development from scratch with public and private assistance is not only realistic, but it could be something new and different and unique in arena planning and development. It is the best chance to create jobs now and help the local economy. It is the best option to create a community based on forward thinking, and set and example for the rest of the country that will put Sacramento on the map.

Let’s stop trying to be like everyone else who has a downtown arena and do something new and different and better.

Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut

by Ice_9ine on Nov 13, 2009 9:24 AM PST via mobile reply actions

I've said it before

The best long term solution is the railyards. I know its a little more expensive (still not sure why that is true?) but it will obviously attract more other Non-Kings events and $$ near/in downtown. Its intuitively obvious to me.
I also think it would help encourage new businesses looking to relocate to consider SAC as a developed, modern, urban destination.
Its not just about the Kings.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Nov 13, 2009 10:13 AM PST reply actions

This

And TZ should have titled this “Until There’s a Funding Plan, Any Kings Arena is Just a Mirage”.

Desmond Mason - Untied the balloon in Colorado, forged Obama's birth certificate, and ruined the careers of Omri Casspi and Tyreke Evans.

by otis29 on Nov 13, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions

other than being downtown

What do you think the benefits of the railyards location would be?

I get that there are already restaurants and shopping and that maybe the traffic situation would be a little better.

But I think a Cal Expo project could be a prototype mixed residential/commercial site with an events center within walking distance of shopping and housing and parks and public transportation.

Does that sound like a place that would discourage events and businesses from wanting to be involved? Just because it isn’t at the railyards doesn’t make it less of an attraction.

Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut

by Ice_9ine on Nov 13, 2009 10:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions

The railyards take advantage of Sacramento having a very advantageous location

in the national highway/freeway grid. Downtown is where our freeways are the most concentrated, and so the arena should be visible from several freeways. It would have an advantage over several arenas that I have seen, that are close to usually only one or two major freeways. I would help the image that Sacramento has to passerby, and it would be good for photos and PR to have an arena backed up by Sacramento’s modest skyline.
It would help to move a bunch of other Downtown pipe dream projects forward, because the arena will guarantee that several thousand people will be roaming around Downtown at 9:30pm on weeknights during half of the year looking for a place to eat, drink, etc.

... Now let me show you why they call me the Velour Fog...

by tomroadrunner on Nov 13, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions

Why can't the Railyards be a prototype mixed residential/commercial site

with an events center within walking distance of shopping and housing and parks and public transportation?

And have less traffic issues.

And potential have a greater economic impact on the city.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 13, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions

The railyards is ideal, but

There is no infrastructure there, sewer, electric, roads, none of it. UP just constructed to suit their own needs, and when they shut it down, the limited, strictly industrial build-out all got torn out. None of it would have been any use for a housing or commercial development, anyway.

Natomas and CalExpo have these things in place, and save any developer hundreds of millions in costs before a single thing can be built. The railyards being built out would be so good for the region, but I understand why no developer is thrilled about making the investment.

In short, I have no answers, except to say that I would support a tax increase, if, and only if, the city & county would maintain ownership of the property, in order to benefit by the revenue the project would generate. We build it, we own it, and if the Maloofs want to invest, they are welcome to back up a dump truck full of money, and buy a piece.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Nov 13, 2009 12:34 PM PST up reply actions

Infrastructure

I believe Thomas Enterprises has already started putting in roads (actually I think just a road for now) on the Railyard property in anticipation of development. Come to think of it, I recall reading something a while ago about them getting state money for infrastructure on the site… Aha!

9/25/09 SacBee article about State and Federal money for Railyard infrastructure

Apparently they got a good amount of State bond money for “roads and utilities” there and some federal stimulus money to help put in a new transit hub there.

Will it still be a bit harder to get something started at the Railyards than in Natomas and Cal Expo? Sure. But I think you need to remember that there is going to be massive development going on at the Railyards over the next several years, and the question is whether or not there will be a good way to include an arena in those plans or not. I think any major city in the country would love to have a piece of land like the Railyards to work with, and we need to make sure to treat it as the valuable asset that it is.

Do we want to fill that space with a state-of-the-art entertainment venue that would be the crown jewel of the region and finally help Sactown to get over it’s inferiority complex, or put in a GD Walmart and Bass Fishing Superstore and lock-in our self-image frustrations for years and years?

I’m generally a pragmatist, but I’ve lived in this city my whole life and I think we deserve something truly special, no matter how hard the struggle for it may be. Screw the traffic, screw the lousy economy, screw the short-sighted neanderthals. Let’s get the damn thing done.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 13, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions

There is no way that traffic will be any better getting into the Rail Yards or Cal Expo

Both are bottlenecks. Especially if you have 10000 cars trying to get to the same place. One benefit of having Arco at it’s current location is that traffic doesn’t back up everywhere else in Sacramento trying to get an arena. In Downtown, that would be the case because every central artery would be blocked trying to get to the game.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 13, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions

I don't know Sactown well enough - is light rail not possible at any of these sites?

Also, Railyards has a regional history, it is centrally located and an eye sore now, the water is nearby (it is prettier) and it is more West – which makes it easier for me to get to.

I do agree with the sentiment that Sacramento can help to crawl out of it’s Cowbell caricuture with a state of the art facility – anywhere.

It would take a massive influx of money to do a project and there is not enough incentive to get it done. Quite simply, everyone wants the profits but no one wants to pay for it. Until then, as this post title says – it is all talk and no walk.

by betweentheeyes on Nov 13, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions

Light Rail already goes to the Railyards

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 13, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions

In KJ we trust

Mayor Johnson is nothing if not determined. I really think that if there is a feasible way to finance an arena downtown without new taxes, it will emerge over the next few months.

If there’s not a way, then we just have to figure-out how to trick enough of the slack-jawed-NIMBY-small picture-gripetastic goons to not vote down a ballot initiative. Perhaps we should start a Request for Proposals on how to win such an election. My initial ideas:

Call the initiative “The God Bless America for Freedom and Patriotism Act”. Who would vote against that?

Conduct a massive mis-information campaign to convince everyone in the SacBee.com Comments Section that the election is on Wednesday instead of Tuesday.

Couple the sales tax with a 5% pay cut for the California Legislature and a resolution declaring that the Kings’ losing record is caused by Illegal Immigration.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 13, 2009 12:04 PM PST reply actions 3 recs

+1

Good stuff there.

by Carl on Nov 13, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions

I knew the record was my fault.

Damn!!

The future begins now...

by edm7 on Nov 13, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Just another drop in the ocean of things to blame you for.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 13, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

I know

We got WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, Vietnam, Watergate, Medicare, Social Security, the breakup of The Beatles, steroids, Vanilla Ice, Enron, Arnold Schwarzneger, Gigli, Paris Hilton, Donaghy, and now the Kings losing record.

The future begins now...

by edm7 on Nov 13, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs

ohh

And of course, the current economy

The future begins now...

by edm7 on Nov 13, 2009 12:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs

Stupid shoe

What's the past tense for "scam?" Is it "scrumped?"

by swoosh91 on Nov 13, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs

I can forgive you for the wars

but I will never forgive you for Gigli.

"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.

by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 13, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Eveyrthing in this string of comments should be green....

Just my humble opinion.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Nov 13, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions