Hawes is clearly not a democrat.

Kenny Thomas is clearly not an actual dog.

Kayte Christensen is clearly not interested in Aykis.

JT is clearly not going to release a rap album.

Sergio is clearly not earning minutes.

Donté is clearly not headed to Reno.

Peaches is clearly not going to win a Pulitzer.

There’s no stat here that’s going to make me not believe my own eyes as far as what I see on the court. Well, unless there’s a Kings performance statistic from an alternate universe where the Kevin Martin injury never happened.

Evans is best when he’s playing psuedo-combo guard (yeah, I just made that up). It’s kind of like the way that Bandon Roy and D-Wade play most efficiently. I really really really do hope Coach W conjures up an offensive scheme to make Tyreke and Kevin work to the Kings’ advantage when they’re on the same floor together. I want it to work…I really do. I also have no problem saying that it would be interesting to see the offense go through Tyreke first, then Kevin second…just to see. It has to be tried first before it becomes gospel of course.

I’ve been defending Speed so much it’s ridiculous. It takes more than 8 games to determine whether or not a player can succeed at the point. Well, unless that player is Cisco.

Nice, Ziller. Clear up those misconceptions. Evans can really, really handle the ball.

You don’t have enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions, and in any case, the difference between the Udrih and Martin lineups (-3 compared to plus 1) falls within the margin of error.

Besides adding Nocioni and Hawes to the starting lineup, the Kings bench – particularly Casspi and Donte – has been phenomenal. We have been winning the second and third quarters, and the second quarter in particular is generally a bench-driven affair.

Clearly there is a big difference in these starting line ups. What we don’t have data on is this change of line up WITH Martin on the floor. Once we have that going on we can really see the difference.

I imagine that if we had the change to Hawes and Nocioni with Martin still on the floor that we would be doing even better. Martin is such a deadly shooter and the need to double either him or Evans is clearly an advantage over Beno who merits few doubles.

Beno is playing much better, but he is no Martin.

Plus 11.1 to lead the Kings. According to these stats from 82games, the five most effective Kings are, in order, Udrih, Udoka, Casspi, Thompson and Greene.

I’d be curious to see how that lineup would do. It kind of goes back to the comment about the play of the bench because Udoka, Casspi and Greene have all played very well.

Beno is a true pt. who facilitates the offense, gets players involved. Seems you should be comparing 2s, since that is where Martin and Evans both naturally fit.
Both provide offense, but with Evans you get slashing and passing, GREAT defense and free throws. With Martin you get great shooting and free throws—very little else.
That to me is the big difference in our winning line-ups: Yes, Noce is a factor, but with he and Evans together at 2,3 you have a solid defensive core to build around.
And let’s face it, our defense has been the huge factor combined with better team shooting.
(And I would definitely not say that Hawes has been a huge factor—though he seems to be improving).
But then again, what do I know—Im not using stats—just what my eyes tell me.

on why we are winning games.

I know its because thats how he was viewed in the draft but could we get some perspective please?
Almost ANY young PG is going to have TO problems at first and JT and others have been costing him a few easy assists lately.
Give it time, his problems are mostly about not moving the ball upcourt quickly enough and/or holding it too long. I’m confidant that those things will improve with experience. He just needs to really learn that players on this level are a lot lot better than those he played at the Major college level.

Refuse left over from a few bad seasons and bad teams. No Team, none, is better without the most efficient scoring SG in the league off the floor.
Now, has / will this help Tyreke’s development some? I think a few games (10 or so) would have been a good argument that it allows him to be more assertive, find his game. Over two months? Nope. The Kid and the team will be exhuasted trying to pick up for KM in another month (or less) and will be thrilled to have him back.

Arenas isn’t necessarily a classical point guard. But he seems to be a smart player, has the skills and IQ to run the offense but also score when he has to.

Another example of a player with Evans size and skills would be Chauncey Billups. Billups had similar criticisms when he was younger.

Baron Davis is not as athletic as Evans, but he has similar size and abilities. At his best he is a big guard who bullies larger opponents with his speed and smaller players with his strength. He can score and run the offense. Evans has a very similar offensive game.

Dwayne Wade isn’t listed as the point guard but I guarantee if you watch the Heat he handles the ball at least as much as Chalmers. If Evans had the explosiveness of Wade I don’t think anyone would complain. Imagine Dwayne Wade and Kevin Martin.

Anyone of those examples could play the “point” and I am sure they would all love to share a backcourt with Kevin Martin. And there is no doubt they would pick Martin over Udrih.

Also, since when did Udrih become a true point. He is a bigger, less skilled Mike Bibby. Bibby can run an offense, but he was best when he was coming of screens off of the ball and shooting. Doug Christie handled the ball a lot instead of Bibby.

So think of it this way: Evans is a bigger, faster, stronger, Doug Christie with better handles, and Martin is a taller quicker Mike Bibby who can drive and get fouled more. What the hell is the complaint?

Its not just about numbers. The Kings haven’t had a scorer who could finish in crunch time or create when the game is on the line in a lonnnnnng damn time. Evans is becoming that player.
I would rather have 20-27 points from him, a well-rounded stat line, and a win, then 50 from K. Mart and a loss because the Kings couldn’t score at the crucial times of the game. Coach has simply found that Beno makes smarter decisions with the ball down the stretch than allowing Evans to force it himself.
Who knows, maybe Kmart and Evans start games, and Beno/Evans finish them?

Are the Kings better with Martin on the team? Of course. But Im still not sold on Martin- Evans backcourt working in the long run and think its too premature for anyone to assume that, solely based on Martin’s scoring efficiency. Every team needs a quarterback, not two guys always looking to score first, which are Evans and Martin’s true personalities: They are scorers first, playmakers second (and in Martin’s case, not at all).

But it never ceases to amaze me how the people here think they know the game better than the vast majority of players and NBA experts who agree that Evans is best utilized as a 2 and that the Martin/Evans backcourt is gonna be an issue in the future.

These people aren’t idiots or armchair fans, and I can see their point.
The only thing I see here are the usual diehard Martin fanatics defending him to the bitter end.

But whatever, Im happy with whatever backcourt gets us wins. Right now, its Beno and Evans and Im liking it.

But he has played point for 5 years, through high school, and most of his one year at Memphis.

His weaknesses are well known: he is not a consistent jump shooter, he can get to the rim but doesn’t know how to finish well, and he likes to have the ball in his hand a little too much. But I don’t think that is much different from any POINT GUARD who has consistently been the best player and the leader of his team growing up.

Evans will develop. This team has the coaching to help him and the teammates to make up for what he lacks in the mean time. The fact that he has played well with Beno tells me that he is learning and adjusting to different situations.

Tyreke needs to improve for sure. All young point guards go through problems learning the position for their team. It isn’t going to hurt him to share with Beno now. And it may help him in the long run. But it in no way means that he is incapable of being the point guard of the future for the Kings, even if he struggles with that role a little now.

The starting line-up featuring Sean May and Desmond Mason was bad. According to 82games.com, over 31 minutes the Evans-Martin-Mason-May-Thompson line-up was a -19. Awful.

I didn’t think Mason was that bad, but the fact that he couldn’t shoot meant teams would defend Evans differently. Having Udoka on the floor has given the Kings an extra shooter in the role of Mason, and for the same reason’s. Nocioni’s offense has been far better than Mason’s defense, and that’s the end game here.

If anything, credit the Kings for not attempting to make Mason work long term. It certainly helps any case from a visual standpoint with Udoka as both Mason and Udoka moved the ball, but Udoka has the outside threat going for him.

I think the biggest difference between Evans with Martin & Udrih is that Evans has attacked the basket relentlessly to be rewarded for it. Whatever happened between the Atlanta and Utah game, a lightbulb went on for Reke. He had not played that way in any game at any time (including the New Orleans game).

So, let’s hope that Tyreke Evans confidence, which should be high around the time Martin returns, is more than enough to smooth whatever rough patch exists with the backcourt pairing of Evans-Martin.

We all want to say “I’m right, you’re wrong.” But there are a lot of mixed truths in this discussion.

I see a lot of folks criticizing one poster for not backing up statements with facts/stats using statements not backed up by facts/stats. And those same posters aren’t really pointing the same general criticism at Ziller’s conversation starter, which is also based on a small sample size. But, eight games into a new and potential exciting season, we have to go with what we have so far.

Stats inform us just as visual observation does. The difference of opinion derived from thiose inputs what makes us unique, and those aren’t set in stone. Things change. Opinions change. If we all thought the same thing, this would be a pretty boring site.

What’s clear, in my opinion, is we have a team again that is at least arguing over, and that’s a good thing.

When Martin comes back, he’s going to play, Beno’s going to play and Tyreke’s going to play, and I assume Westphal will try to find the right combos and mix of playing time to make it work.

In the meantime, I am going to the game tonight to add some fresh inputs.

On the other hand I thought TZ proved the point that Tyreke Evans is a PG whether it’s with Beno Udrih on the court or Kevin Martin starting with him.

I must have missed that and not quite sure how you can “prove” someone is a point guard. But, as some folks have pointed out, it may not matter. Call him a combo guard, call him a point guard, call him whatever you want as long we win.

Yeah, too bad they lost.

Wait, what? They won? And Martin was basically the main reason they won?

I’m not saying that Martin needs to score 50 points for the Kings to win. And there are times when I feel like the Kings rely too much on their best player. But to say that Martin needs to go because the other players tend to stand around when he has the ball is ludicrous. You don’t just get rid of one of the most efficient scorers in the league.

If you ask me, the solution to the problem is to continue starting the best players (Noc and Hawes), and to have everybody actually move around on offense when Martin’s in the game.

I have a question in regards to all of this point guard – lead guard – two guard nonsense, specifically in regards to whether or not Evans and Martin can play together. So let’s play a game that I’ve created while sitting on the airport. I call it “Find the true point guard.”

Ainge/D.Johnson
Jordan/B.J. Armstrong
Jordan/Paxson
Jordan/Kerr
Parker/Ginobli (take a hard look at Parker’s assist rate before answering that)
Bryant/(insert your choice of names here)

I’m sure that there are a ton of these examples. I like the Ainge/DJ example the best, because that Boston team initiated offense through everyone, making them nearly impossible to scout and defend. I’d like to see us head in that direction.