The Prospect of, Um, Samuel Dalembert
by Tom Ziller on Nov 17, 2009 6:06 AM PST
in Commentary
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PrintApparently, the Kings are highly interested in a defensive-minded center. Marc Stein of ESPN reports on TrueHoop that the Kings are in exploratory discussions with Philadelphia and Boston in a deal that would bring centre (boom!) Samuel Dalembert to Sacramento with Kenny Thomas and Andres Nocioni departing. Essentially, it brings in Dalembert, whose defense is well-reputed but whose offense and sometimes attitude is disastrous, for two seasons while cutting some salary off this season's ledger and freeing the team from Nocioni's longer contract. Here are the full contract details for the only three players who matter to Sacramento. (Boston, who would receive Nocioni, would also send a couple of dudes to Philly.) As always with matters of salary, thanks be to ShamSports (who you can also follow for pithy remarks, obscure transaction news and feuds with Sam Amick [no really!] on Twitter: @ShamSports).
| Player | '09-10 | '10-11 | '11-12 | '12-13 |
| Dalembert | $12M | $12.9M | -- | -- |
| Nocioni | $7.5M | $6.9M | $6.7M | $7.5M* |
| Thomas | $8.8M | -- | -- | -- |
The Kings would save a solid $4 million this season, give or take as roughly 10 percent of the season's salary has already been paid out. Next season, the Kings would have $46 million in payroll on the books instead of $40 million, and would be out of the running for a major free agent chase, barring something unexpected with the salary cap. The Kings would gain $6.7 million in space in 2011-12 (putting the team at $34 million in commitments without accounting for Spencer Hawes's extension) as the then-31 Nocioni would no longer be on the books. Nocioni's 2012-13 salary is a team option, which is unlikely to be picked up by any team, unless Bueno Aires grabs an expansion club and Dorothy Nocioni is the owner. So basically, the Kings would save roughly $4 million this season, spend an extra $6 million next season and save $6.7 million in '11-12. A net savings of roughly $4.5 million over three seasons.
That's the money situation. What about the talent?
As we've discussed, Thomas is a bit of gravy right now. He's playing well on defense and on the boards, but he's really just an expiring contract. Adding another pivot would guarantee that. Heck, if Jon Brockman were an inch taller, or Sean May were 10 pounds lighter, Thomas would never get off the bench. Losing Thomas, while sad, because man we have been through a lot with that guy!, would not matter much to the product on the court. Just the product in my chest.
Nocioni has been a good contributor for the Kings, maybe the fourth best offensive weapon at any time. He's also, as we were reminded frequently during the Thunder-Kings game, an active defender, though he's less brilliant against lesser talents, where he loses concentration and chases the ball. Right now, he's the team's most easily swingable big small forward (a minor victory) and one of the team's more reliable shooters (with Omri Casspi, Beno Udrih and a healthy Kevin Martin ... and someday a healthy Francisco Garcia). You assume Ime Udoka would take over Nocioni's spot, at least temporarily, as the suggested three-guard line-up looms with Martin's expected return around the New Year. If it's not Udoka, Paul Westphal can choose between Casspi (the better scorer and more energetic defender) or Donte Greene (the ultra-athletic, hyper-celebratory choice).
But that's all temporary. Long-term, the Kings have plenty of options at the position. Udoka is the team's best defender without question, and he can hit an open shot (which is arguably all you want from Nocioni, though he tends to create in a pinch, which we'd miss until Martin returns or Spencer Hawes regains confidence). Casspi is a bright star -- not star as in NBA Star, but star as in shining light which will always rise with the moon and never disappear until it burns out in a wonderful supernova, which won't happen for millions of years. Greene, of course, is the secret lock of hair in the shoebox, the everlasting dream of tomorrow. Garcia might be a lost cause this season (he'll have about 25-30 games once he returns, and he'll need to refind his stroke on that shooting hand), but he's signed up for the long haul and can do a lot of what Nocioni can do, except for the rebounding. He is, basically, Nocioni. Which makes it weird that we have two Nocionis. But it had to happen -- we couldn't go from two Salmonses (John Salmons and Garcia) to zero Salmonses without making it up somewhere else. (Can we try two Martins or two Thompsons next time? Thanks.)
Now, to the Haitian Conflagration. Interestingly enough, I wondered about Dalembert last trade deadline.
[Tyson] Chandler's reputation is much stronger than that of Dalembert, though I can't really understand why. The only real, measurable advantages for Chandler are that he is 17 months younger, that he refuses to shoot if he can't dunk (hence the higher FG%) and he doesn't put the ball on the floor ever.
Dalembert is an equal or slightly better rebounder, a far better shot-blocker, is slightly cheaper in salary and MUCH cheaper in terms of acquisition costs.
(Quoting myself once again! The Ego is back, baby! Step off, Id.) Chandler is no longer a comparison, as he is spoken for. But look at Dalembert on his own merits: a career defensive rebounding percentage of 24.5 percent, a career block rate of 5.8 percent (that is, when on the court he blocks 5.8 percent of all opponent field goal attempts), a career individual Defensive Rating of 101.5, which happens to rank 88th in the NBA ... all time. He has played every game in each of the past three seasons. He is 75th in NBA history in total blocks, despite averaging only 26 minutes per game for his career (due to fouls and a lack of offensive ability). He was the third best rebounder in the league last season: 6th on the offensive glass (better than J.T.), third on the defensive glass (behind Troy Murphy and Dwight Howard), third overall (behind Howard and Kevin Love). He has finished top seven in the league in block rate in five of his eight NBA seasons, and top nine in rebound rate three times.
For a 7-footer, his career field goal percentage of 52.3 percent might be a bit low. But his True Shooting percentage (that's the best measure of scoring efficiency) is above league average, because unlike most defensive specialist centers he can hit free throws (better than 70 percent in each of the past four seasons and at 78 percent this year). His turnover rate is atrocious, which means he needs to stop handling the ball. I think a coach like Paul Westphal -- who convinced D.G. to stop taking hurried off-balance threes -- could impart that knowledge effectively. If not, your third big (who might start in front of Hawes -- that'd be a pretty big question) would have terrible hands. Not the worst realization, given how many top-level bigs have terrible hands, and given how good the other two prominent Kings bigs' hands are. (No Hamburglar.)
You know, if too many deals which I support come up, I'm going to be found out as an antsy Nancy who is just rooting for a trade. I'm not. But I understand the importance of interior defense -- look at much Hawes, who improved from dreadful to passable on defense, has helped! Imagine inserting a real, live, intimidating defender to the back line. The Kings, no matter how much they have surprised, are still a bad defensive team. Dalembert would help, this year and next. Given that the financial commitment is relatively short, and the price relatively small (no knock on Nocioni -- again, he's a bit superfluous here), it's something any team in Sacramento's position should consider. I trust that provided Boston is on board (Philadelphia certainly must be -- that franchise needs cap space like Jim Eyen needs a personal shopper), the Kings will consider this deal extensively. It's an intriguing one.
UPDATE: I completely neglected J.R. Giddens in this. Take roughly $1 million off this season's savings, and add a relatively old (24) Greene-level two-guard prospect. Giddens played 26 games for Kings assistant Bryan Gates's Utah Flash last season, and turned out a non-elite but good 19.1 PER. On the surface, I can tell he shot twos wonderfully and rebounded well for a 6-5 fella.
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Out classed by Ziller
Couldn’t of written a review of this trade any better….i tried but yours is better. As I said in my fanpost i’m a fan of this trade. When you consider the fact that the kings aren’t a factor FA wise, and that they need more interior defense, this trade puts them playing with house money. They dump K9 and lose Noc’s contract which together basically cancels out Dalamberts contract, which in the end is over before we have to resign any of our young bigs.
In the mean time the Kings get a bonafide defensive, shotblocking, dboard grabbing center for the next two years to anchor the young Shock and Hawes.
worst case scenario
we have an even better $12.9M expiring contract in ‘10-’11. That will have to have some trade possibilities next season.
Nocioni will be missed, but the combination of Greene and Casspi has really shined so far this year. With Udoka in the mix, I think we will be ok.
I dunno
I understand the long term cost considerations, but since it’s not my money I’d rather do the KT for Okafor deal then trade Noce for expirings separately.
But if that’s off the table I’d do this as well. We need a 3rd, defensive big, aren’t going to do much better with KT’s cap space, and Noce should be traded before Martin and Garcia come back and need the minutes.
The deal definitely makes sense monetarily.
That, in and of itself makes it less scary than the Okafor deal, which isn’t happening. And we aren’t getting Chris Paul, so shutup about that.
I’m intrigued by this, and if losing Nocioni (and his long contract) costs us a few games until Martin and (hopefully) Garcia get back, all that does is help our draft position, anyway. We aren’t going to the playoffs this year, but a season of getting used to having Dalembert as a backstop could make next season a real possibility.
And having Giddens on my PASPN team makes me somewhat familiar with him, he’s pretty solid, as throw-ins go.
Great read, Tom.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
I agree
I’m more in favor of this than the Okafor trade simply because it’s a wash financially – you lose Expiring Contract Kenny Thomas, but you get rid of Andres Nocioni’s deal while there is still time – Nocioni isn’t getting any younger, and frankly I’m surprised that anyone would consider taking on his deal right now.
The big question is Dalembert’s motivation. He’s really been moping up and down the court last season and this one – maybe a change of scenery is what he needs?
Even still, you don’t lose much even if he’s just serviceable. I say go for it.
by nbrans on Nov 17, 2009 8:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I saw Giddens in fhe FanShot
And I just thought “Well Sims will be happy”.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
Which is really the only question any of you should ever have:
“Will this make sims happy?”
It will simplify your life, I promise. Sometimes, I try to make you happy, too.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
I like it !
I’m a Celtic fan to(sorry), and I like the the idea of bringing in Giddens. He’s much more than a throw in to make the trade work. Giddens has spent his first two years in Doc Rivers system, which is all about the defense. Running him with Evans would be a great young defensive minded back court. Definitely, thumbs up all around if this happens.
I put that badly.
I like Giddens’ game, I think on a young team like Sacramento, he could really shine in limited opportunities.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
Sorry
My PT question below was meant for you.
what's the story with so little PT?
Is he just buried behind too many backcourt vets?
This seems to meet all the req's
Does not commit us to long term salary that would keep us from signing our up and coming talent.
Big dude who can defend. I would want to see his numbers against Shaq and other bigs.., but seems he would do much better at 7’ Okafor.
Sounds like a much better option.
I like this trade much more than the Okafor deal
For all the reasons mentioned above as well as the idea that if Dalembert does become someone we want to keep around past his contract we can most likely do it for much less than his current salary scale.
From where I stand there really is no way to lose
1. He costs less than what we are giving up
2. He adds defense and the “third big” we are looking for
3. His contract only runs 2 years beyond this year
4. This trade clears room at the small forward/ swing position for our young guys/ hurt guys
5. If he does pan out he can be resigned for something around the MLE as a 3rd veteran big
by Travis Mays Hayes on Nov 17, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
This trade in a sense
reminds me of the Corliss for Doug Christie we did years ago. It brought us in a defensive player we desperately needed AND it cleared room for Peja to get the minutes he needed. I’m not saying this trade would have the same impact, but its the same type of trade.
by Travis Mays Hayes on Nov 17, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Just to make you like it more
Dalembert’s contract expires at the end of next season, not “2 years beyond this year”.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Nov 17, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
Very interesting trade
Sooooo much less risk for the Kings. The holdup on this trade has to be some team other than the Kings, I don’t see how we could pass on this if it were offered.
We get to dump Nocioni, who isn’t in the long term plan and at times may be hard to get rid of.
We save money.
We kick the big expiring contract down the road one year, meaning we have a nice deal to use next year if opportunity presents itself.
We fill an obvious need (defensive big guy), and the only thing we’re giving up that matters in the short tem is Nocioni, and Udoka can bring the vast majority of what Nocioni does while the kids develop.
Its a no brainer for us, unless you are willing to use K9ExP in a higher risk (more money committed) / higher reward (longer term player) scenario this year. Given what we suspect about the Maloof’s finances, this makes a ton of sense.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
by ForThree on Nov 17, 2009 7:21 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
If the Celtics keep losing, I see them pulling the trigger on this trade.
If Elton Brand starts playing better, I see the Sixers pulling the trigger.
If the Kigns keep playing well, I see them pulling the trigger.
Not saying these things must happen for the trade to go through, but in a world of iron wheels, you need a little grease.
GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims
Too good to pass up.
Adding frontcourt depth that doesn’t involve taking on an unmanageable long-term contract is awesome, and unloading Nocioni is almost as good.
Like Stein said in his article, Boston has to be the only team even sort of reluctant to pull the trigger. It works pretty well for them in the short term, though, as Nocioni can do things that Marquise Daniels can’t do.
"El once, chico. Eleven."
Why trade Noce
Noce brought something to this team that it has not had for a couple of years and he continues to bring it. That is toughness. He is not injury prone ala Garcia or Martin. He contract is not the end of the world and he is not that old either. In addition, he is willing to do what ever is asked of him.
What keeps bothering me is the size of the center’s contracts who have been spoken about in trades the last few days. I love stereo equipment and there is a saying in audio land called “the law of dimishing returns.” In short, if I have invested $6,000 in my stereo and then I go out and spend $12,000, do not expect double the stereo. Instead expect maybe a 15% improvement if that. Spencer makes a couple of million and we are willing to pay someone 5-6 times that amount and get maybe a 20% improvement at best. Is that 20% worth 5-6 times the salary??? I’m not sure. I went down several rosters yesterday and the only players whose salary is reasonable, their contracts are not bad and would could play backup center I found were Jeff Foster and Nick Collison. I could live with those two over “Dalem” and “Emek” and yet I don’t think they are huge upgrades over KT.
A few other thoughts. The Garcia and Martin injuries really screwed up Petrie’s flexibility. I don’t think Garcia’s contract is all that great and would not be opposed to moving him but his injury limits his movement.
Finally, I can not help but think how Beno’s play has given Petrie even more flexibility. The Beno/Evans combo has worked out pretty well. If Beno sucks, Petrie needs to do something to shore up that area with Martin out. But Beno has played pretty well and now Petrie can focus (and hopefully Beno keeps playing like this and can be trusted to do this for a few more years, can he?) on improving other areas.
Petrie never makes the obvious move. If something does happen soon, it will be no doubt out of the clear blue sky that none of us saw coming
by noreboundsnorings on Nov 17, 2009 7:51 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
It will make more sense
if you think of players more as people with a set of skills and less as a pile of statistics.
Dalembert is a very competant defensive center in the league, that’s 28 years old, and is not much of an offensive threat. If he comes over with a good attitude, he’s a good fit for us, and he expires in two years which should give plenty of time to get a better read on what kind of player Spencer is going to be.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Apples, oranges
If you’re going to value this trade based on the law of diminishing returns, then you have to focus on the pieces of the transaction (Dalambert vs. K9/Nocioni). Hawes can’t really be included in the equation because he’s not part of the transaction. It’s all about trade-offs – what are we giving up, and what are we getting?
Production-wise, we’re giving up hustle and effort to fill some glaring holes – can anyone remember the last time we had a true defensive presence in the post? Personally, I’m very comfortable with Udoka and Casspi bering able to step in and reproduce Nocioni’s stats and intangible contribution.
Financially, it’s marginally favorable. Long-term, we’re delaying our salary cap benefit by a year, while clearing Nocioni’s questionable contract from our books. We all know that we’re not realistically in the running to land one of the top-tier 2010 free agents. My hope was that we could use K9’s expiring contract as leverage to extract over-value from a team that is desperate to get into the 2010 sweepstakes, but it looks like most of those players are already set. (Okafor <> over-value.) This trade would give us a large expiring contract in 2010-11 – perhaps there will be some teams suffering from a free agent hangover from having overspent in the 2010 hysteria. We still likely wouldn’t land one of the top-tier players (those teams would definitely grant some time to see if their investment will mature, and Feb. 2011 would likely be too soon to tell), but there may be some high-quality second-tier players who just aren’t fitting with their team’s new direction, but who could fill a much-needed leadership role with the Kings.
The locker room is my biggest concern – we’ve read recently about Nocioni’s stated willingness to do whatever the coaches ask of him. That kind of attitude has to be huge in showing all of the young Kings what it means to be a professional, how to be a team player. Dalambert would be an unknown in the locker room at this point, and quite frankly, leadership has been an iffy subject the last couple of years. I’m not saying he’s carcinogenic – he very well may just need a change of scenery to snap out of his Philly funk. It’s gotta be tough to stay motivated when you know that your employer is indiscriminately seeking to dump your salary. If Dalambert can come in and pick up where Nocioni leaves off in terms of attitude, I’d call that a win. And if he doesn’t, we’re not stuck with the guy long-term.
Whenever you think it can't possibly happen, it probably just did.
by doogman77 on Nov 17, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Just an aside. Might want to read up on Dalembert's problems on the Canadian team.
There can only be one Noce!
Here's the link.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/olympics/2008/07/17/rautins_dalembert/#
That being said, I say we go for Okafor.
There can only be one Noce!
This makes it sound like Philly is the one holding it up.
Well, not that. This here.
And there is that $3.5 million trade kicker that Cheapskate McCasino brothers would have to pony up.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
I don't understand the trade kicker
Is it that Dalembert has a clause in his contract that says, “If you trade me, the recipient has to pay 3.5 mil?”
Either the Celts or Philly could send along 3 mill to make this thing work.
I believe they would if it meant completing the transaction. All three teams seem to benefit from this deal which isn’t very common.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
Then the deal doesn't match - again
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Cash considerations don't count as cap dollars LLTG.
Kenny Thomas = $8,775,000
Andres Nocioni = $7,500,000
Total = $16,275,000
Dalembert = $12,025,694 × .15 = $13,829,548
J.R. Giddens = $1,028880
Total = $14,858428
Well within the 125% differential.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
Why not cut Philly out....
…and just deal Noc for Scal/Allen/Giddens….
That way we have 15 million in expirings to deal at the deadline, or let expire in 2010.
I agree Okefor is better
the question is, are you committed enough to Okefor to pay him the money he’s owed over a long period of time. The Maloofs considered it and apparently backed away. The deal for Dalembert is a ton less risk, because the time frame is so much shorter.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Are you kidding.
Waste our K9 chip AND Noce… for Dalembert? Bahahaha. Um, no thank you.
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
Eh to be fair...
…Daly becomes a bigger chip than k-9 next year and it moves Nocioni’s deal to boot.
Why?
I see your laughter. I see your snide “Um, no thank you”, but I don’t see any explanation for your viewpoint.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Already said it.
Dalembert is not woth a k9 and Noc. We don’t gain any more production than what we’ll be losing and all we would have is a Dalembert expiring. Yes, we’ll get an extra block or two a game but we lose production on the offense.
Sorry, i don’t have time to dive into a statistical pool, and quite frankly, I’m tired of statistics and sports (there is a stat for anything nowa days). But as an observer from watching Dalembert over the years… my confidence level in this trade is low. I would like us to hold out.. and not pull the trigger on a trade before we’ve even played 10 games into the season.
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
Tired of statistics in sport?
You might as well stop frequenting the internet then – ‘cause they aren’t going away any time soon.
Tell me this, would you rather our management group use advanced statistical analysis when making deals, or just go off their gut instinct?
No.
You’ve got to take into account other things than statistical comparisons. Statistics are relational and will vary based on other surrounding elements (players). I didn’t say anything about “gut” instinct. Observation my friend, observation.
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
I get that
But you can have both, no? It just sounded like you were being completely dismissive of statistical analysis…
Both.
Stats aren’t everything…but gut feelings can be pretty dangerous, too.
I think there is more out there than a Dalembert, too. But, I could be wrong.
Plus that, a 2011 expiring contract trade chip is not going to be worth as much as a 2010 ec trade chip. In the aftermath of the 2010 FA hangover, I think teams are going to look back and notice that, despite all the party preparations, not many guests showed up (i.e., not many players of significance will be switching teams). This will cause teams to settle for players they may not have wanted. The lesson will be not to put all your eggs in one basket, and could drive down the incentive to give away decent assets for expiring salary.
Also, hopefully by then the economy is improving and expiring salary will not hold the appeal it once did. Granted these points are speculative, but it goes to illustrate the point that (besides a considerable difference in the “available” talent pool), a 2011 trade chip is just not worth a 2010 trade chip. Gotta hold out for max value!
Is SD max value? I think not. Still, given the relative low risk of acquiring Dalembert, I’m not completely against the deal. I was just hoping that we would make a trade for something more long term.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Nov 17, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Sammy here
way too much to give up for Dalembert. Better deals will come up for Noce. What are we clinging to this cap space for? Haven’t we argued that a big FA won’t come here anyway?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed as well
Have any of you actually seen Dalembert play? Dude is a bum much of the time, and marginally competent when he isn’t simply occupying space. Dude is terrible at pick n roll D, has no hands, and if you think JT has a foul problem…
by sactown on Nov 17, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I'm saying.
We’re talking about SAMUEL DALEMBERT. It is still early.. field some other calls… Other options will arise in due time. But this is not a good trade off.
Plus, I thought we were trying to build a team here? You can only do the salary hopscotch for so long….
Don't hate, I'm a realist!
No brainer
if we were 2-7 right now instead of 5-4. Messing with the chemistry right now worries me a little. That being said I am leaning towards making the trade happen.
by allbenji's on Nov 17, 2009 8:41 AM PST via mobile reply actions
We're approaching this wrong....
..just deal Noc for Mohammed. Get’s us 2011 and capable, CHEAPER back-up center. Noc has a role in charlotte now as Vlad Rad is gone.
My Concern
Is shared I tink by LP above. I’d rather not use both our tradable assets essentially on Dalembert.
I could care less about shedding Noce’s salary as I think he’s been clutch and I think more suitors will come calling for him with better young prospects in hand than JR Giddens.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'm glad that you and a couple of others are providing some counter-arguments
When I first heard about the trade and then read Ziller’s post it seemed like a slam-dunk to me. Your hope in getting better value in a trade is intriguing, but I think I’m still in favor of pulling the trigger here as waiting seems like a bit of a risk. Who knows what could happen between now and the deadline that might affect our options (injuries, player performance, trades, etc.). We’re again back to the “a bird in the hand” situation. You seem a bit more of a gambler than I.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
The way I see it...
…It’s not much of a gamble to wait. worst case scenario we will have missed out on Dalembert. Darn.
There’s better deals out there, and if there’s not…there will be.
I’m taking the stance that it’s not about what the Kings GET in this deal (and honestly I thin SD could be a decent-to-nice piece…COULD be), but rather what the Kings are giving up. And I’m not talking about Noc and K9. I’m talking about the opportunity cost of officially not being able to pursue something else. This deal would bind our hands for a few years. We’re too close to being a complete team to make this deal right now.
There. I’ve convinced myself. I don’t like this deal.
"If you told him to head-butt the wall, he would do it." -- Paul Westphal re: Brockness Monster.
by PhutureKings on Nov 17, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
If they are calling this early in the season (and its incredibly early)
We’ll have more chances.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
And Nocioni's contract becomes more favorable as time goes on
I tend to agree, there’s really no rush to move Nocioni here. I’m interested in Petrie’s thinking, in regards to acquiring a frontcourt player right now.
Mr. Petrie is driving the Playoff Bandwagon
Fast and furious.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, Noce's contract declines
I think its more attractive than people think. We’re still hung up with our ‘bad team’ ‘bad players’ vibes from last season(s).
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
Options are Great
But both the Okafor trade and now this trade are accompanied with some serious points of debate both for and against the trades. I am generally positive about the prospect of gaining Emeka as I feel the Kings are shored up at most positions except center (and maybe backup PF). However I truly think Emeka would be better as a PF and not a center and we certainly have found our PF of the future already. As for Dalembert, he is 100% a center but is he what we want? He is a defensive presence in the middle but he Is foul prone and we would have a resurrection of the lobster claws references (OK maybe that’s not all bad). Is he THAT much better than Hawes on the defensive end to make up for atrocious offense? Maybe… but I still have faith that Spencer still has some improvement in his game. Therefore, do we want to trade the KTEC and Noc for a backup defensive center? I would be more inclined to say yes if it were KTEC alone but not including Noc as well. I think we can get better for Nocioni. Therefore StR has my official veto on this trade and there will be no further discussions on this topic. Or not.
by Mityt on Nov 17, 2009 9:44 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Isn't this less than Boston offered last year?
Doesn’t Cleveland and / or Utah need Noce (+ others?)
I’m a NO unless the pot is sweetened.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
It all revolves around what you think Nocioni is worth
I’ve said since we got him, I’d get rid of him for expirings whenever the situation presented itself. I don’t think the dropoff from Nocioni to Udoka + Casspi/Greene as they earn the minutes and Garcia when he comes back is material.
Maybe he’s worth more than expirings, that’s the gamble. To me, if he is, its not much more and passing on the chance to get rid of him is too big a risk to take.
Combined with the fact Dalembert is a real nice fit, with only one additional year on his contract, and I’d be excited to make this trade.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
by ForThree on Nov 17, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he's (Noce) worth a lot to a Playoff team
and carries few risks financially or attitude as his contract declines over the next two years. He more than competently backs up two positions, is tough and reasonably clutch in a pinch.
I’d want him as my last piece to make a run.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
This is pretty much where I'm at on this trade
Nocioni is a fairly valuable asset, yes, but if he’s still on this team after the trade deadline, the whole roster dynamic could get a little messy when Kevin and Cisco return. Having too many guys deserving of minutes is not the worst predicament to be in, but I think most of us would rather see Noce traded before the deadline this year if we can get good value in return and not impact future flexibility.
I agree with you that though Noce has been playing well and probably contributing much to our early success, I feel pretty good about other guys being able to pickup the loss of production. I also don’t think we should overstate Nocioni’s value in the locker room. While he may be a great teammate and I’m sure everyone appreciates his enthusiasm, I really don’t think our overall chemistry is going to take a big hit without him, as we’d still have a great mix of guys that are self-motivated, and a coach that seems to be doing a good job of keeping everyone focused.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
I know I know
But Noce does lead in toughness on the court, a pretty good example I’d hate to lose for a small gain in another area.
I’m just not sold on SD as a person in the locker room or court.
(and yes, I’m aware of all my rantings this summer about a true defensive presence no matter what the cost)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
the irony does make me chuckle...
its difficult to imagine two guys (of people that are possible to get) that more represent what you were talking about than Okefor and Dalembert.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
I'm for the Okafor trade
as long as its 1 for 1 – though I think its a risk
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
I'm guessing they wanted Hawes though
which killed it
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
Ha, the irony hadn't occured to me
Maybe your plane pal Geoff is trying to make amends with you since he couldn’t draft Thabeet.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
It's not uncommon in business,
to let your trade partners know that your working on other deals. So, that they feel some pressure to work out a deal, rather than sit back and take their time. If this is the case here, the question is who are the Kings trying to pressure?
Was the Okafor deal meant to get the 76er’s to move? Or, is the 76er deal meant to get NO to move on Okafor?
I believe the Kings need to get a low cost prospect as their backup center ( and before you ask, I don’t have any player in mind). And, it may end up being a player in next years draft.
A small market team can’t afford 4 players making $10M+ on their roster. There is no revenue sharing in the NBA. The salary cap is based on every teams income added together, and then the league takes 51% of that as the cap. So, the large markets with their hugh arenas and corporate sponsors inflate the cap. Making it difficult for the smaller markets to make a profit while paying their players under the same cap as the large markets.
Martin makes $10M+, and we know that Tyreke will demand that much also. And, although the Kings can’t be forced into paying him that much before the end of his rookie contract. They just might want to sign him to a long term deal before the end of his 4th year. If JT continues to progress, he could be up for a big payday in three years.
I’d put 3 years as the limit for any big ticket acquisitions. Yes, it is possible to dump salary, But, as the Okafor & Dalembert deals highlight, the advantage is always with the team with the money and never with the team with the bad contracts.
The Kings & the Maloofs can’t afford to have stars at every position in the starting lineup. They need some role players coming off the bench and in the starting lineup too. Four stars in the starting lineup & 2 MLE’s is the entire Salary Cap.
This economy was caused by people buying now and planning to pay down the road. The Kings need to put on the brakes and understand that they can’t afford to buy a playoff team. The Dalenbert deal works financially in the short term and has no long term side affects. Okafor works in the short term but will stifle all progress in 3 years.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Nov 17, 2009 10:07 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Giddens, The Deal and Assorted Thoughts
According to Wikipedia (now there’s a reliable source), Giddens has a rep as a "bad teammate. And Dalembert’s rep ain’t too great either. If I am dumping Andres “I will do anything you want” Nocioni just as the team is starting to develop an identity and some chemistry, I at least would like some good character guys coming back.
The finances on this deal are pretty good, though. Nocioni’s value may never be higher than it is now and, like with Salmons, it may be time to sell high. I like this deal better than the Okafor deal because it gives us a ton more flexibility and also gives us a nice expiring chip for next year.
But I’m not a Dalembert fan at all. I like my players to have skills at both ends of the floor. I do like the fact that he can hit free throws, but his hands appear to have been manufactured at the Mikki Moore Cloning Institute.
If anything, Udoka’s play makes this deal possible. The returns are limited, but I like what I see of Udoka, and we know we need to get more minutes for Casspi and Greene.
Garcia? Trade bait in my mind. Same thing with Martin next summer as we continue to evolve into a tougher team that teams have to take seriously on both ends of the floor while shedding our bigger contracts for more flexibility.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Nov 17, 2009 10:17 AM PST reply actions
Seems exactly like something GP would do
We give away Salmons to get rid of a $12M backup center a year early, Now, we want to trade away the only piece we got out of the trade so that we can sign a $12M backup center for a year longer.
Sometimes it’s just better to do nothing, at least you can’t screw it up any worse.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Like this more than the Okafor deal
I’m just glad to see the team actively shopping Thomas. Even if none of these come to pass, it shows we’re not giving up a sizeable chip for a pu pu platter of guys ala the Bibby trade. Plus, with the guys discussed, it shows the team management thinks we can contend for a playoff spot soon.
Dip til I rip
http://reclaimingthetitle.wordpress.com
by Muff209 on Nov 17, 2009 10:22 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I'd admit, I'll be eating crow
I didn’t believe we’d get takers for Kenny under anything but Bad circumstances.
That doesn’t seem to be true – even if this deal doesn’t happen as we’re getting offers so incredibly early in the season.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Too early is right
That’s why I think we should wait. I guess the FO believes a backup center could extend our winning some, and bring up attendance. But, with all the teams that are paying the Luxury Tax, and with the economy recovering very slowly, teams are going to get desperate.
The 76er deal has no financial gain salary wise. So, unless you believe Dalembert is going to help us fill seats, I’d pay for now.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
agreed
The savings is negligible and would this increase wins? Or excitement? Subtracting Noce and adding Dalembert? I could be wrong but I think not. And Wins will fill seats.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Crap, you guys are doing a good job of convincing me
This is exactly what I went through with the Okafor proposal. Sounds great on first blush, not so clear upon further inspection. I got scared off of my support for the Okafor idea, and now I’m feeling like I’m getting scared off of this one too. I suppose this is why I’m not a GM.
I still feel like the Dalembert deal is fairly low-risk/high reward potential deal that I’m still leaning towards supporting, but I wouldn’t really be disappointed if it didn’t happen. If we don’t end up trading Noce this year, or end up trading him just for expirings, I think I’ll be a bit dissapointed that we couldn’t get this one done.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Kings 2012
Looking at our roster and cap space, it seems like our best chance for really winning a title would be in 2012, but we would need to pick up a FA in 2010 that can help us without breaking the bank. A target of David Lee in 2010 seems realisitc but adding Dalembert now would put that at risk.
Could we not try and move K9 and Noc for a second round draft pick and do our best to clear salary for a David Lee in 2010 and offer a max deal for Carmelo in 2011?
Without flaming me to death, why does this not make sense?
Flame on, how do you get some team to pick up $15M in salary for a 2nd rounder?
Everyteam is over the salary cap except OKC. When your over the cap you have to take back as much salary as you trade away, or at least within 25%.
We would have $10M in cap space to sign Lee is we didn’t trade K9, because his contract ends at the end of this year anyways.
The whole idea of moving Noc to Boston and K9 to the 76ers is that we move their $15M in salary and take back $12M which is within the 25% trade requirement. Then at the end of 2010/2011 season, Dalemberts contract expires and we gain $13M in cap space for the 2011 Free Agent signing period. That’s how you clear cap space to sign your Carmelo.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
What if ..
we don’t trade K9 at all and clear him off of 2010 cap and don’t take anything on that we don’t want? It’s not like we are winning the championship this year?
That would free up the space needed to go after someone like D. Lee in 2010 and still grab a Carmelo in 2011.
I wouldn’t be in a rush to move Noc, he’s playing well and we are winning.
Neither of those guys is coming to SAC
other than by trade. (D Lee as has been said plays NO defense and would command as much $$ as Okafor and for longer)
As to this?
I wouldn’t be in a rush to move Noc, he’s playing well and we are winning.
I agree, there will be other teams later that will give up more.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Why Do You Think He's Worse @ Defense
What are you looking at, just blocks? In every stat but blocks Lee is better?
Because he continually gets BURNT on defense.
He’s a creampuff defender. He can rebound and hit a shot within 15 feet, but he can’t stop anyone else from scoring without a double team. He’s a LIABILITY to make any other PF WORK to score their points.
David Lee does not play D
Think Olden Polynice with a good attitude….Olden had stats on a bad team that no true value to the team. David Lee is not the answer. I do not think SD is either..I do not have someone in mind why cant we search the D-League for a rebounder and defender and try that first this year.
Just a thought
David Lee is Solid
Lee rebounds and scores. He hustles and puts out maximum effort, he’s exciting to watch. Does he block as many shots as Okafor, no. But he’s well rounded and would be an excellent fit, and he would cost less than Okafor.
No, he wouldn't cost less
And he’s be a Five year deal – not four.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
How can you predict the future?
where can I get such a hat?
He's made it clear (D Lee)
That he wants a contract starting at $10 mil plus for five years.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
That's less than Okafor
Okafor
6 years/$72 M = $12M
Lee
5 years/60 M = $12M
Which would you rather have, and this is believing that he gets $12M a year which may be unlikely depending on what sort of market he is in.
Lee won’t cost more than Okafor, and he will produce more and be much better fit IMO
The thing is:
Okafor only has FOUR years left on his deal at the time you’d be signing Lee to 5 years.
Not sure where I stand on this one either
On one hand, Dalembert is cheaper than Okafor and does fill a need for this team. At the same time, Okafor is a better player and we would be giving up 2 trade assets as oppose to 1 on the Okafor deal.
If there’s something positive to take out of the latest trade chatter is that the front office is looking to make deals and improve the team. Many of us (me included) thought they were just going to let Kenny expire but it looks like that won’t be happening. I applaud that.
I think we should wait a bit more to make any deal (unless is ano brainer for the Kings). I’m not even sure Petrie and co. want to deal right now, they may just be setting value on our assets and assesing the situation of other teams. My best guess si that we will make a deal, but it won’t be anytime soon.
One last thing to think about, when was the last time we knew about a trade Petrie made far in advance?
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
whether this deal is actually available or not
is sort of immaterial isn’t it? It seems like a legit rumor/possibility, that’s enough for it to be fun to discuss.
I’d be working if I wasn’t chatting about this deal. What are you trying to do to me?!?
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
No doubt 4-3
My point was that maybe this is just plain chatter and Petrie is going to sneak on us (like he always does) and make some deal we haven’t even discussed or knew was on the table.
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
I got a short memory, so
how long was it after the MIami rumors started last year, before the Chicago trade went down?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
My memory is even worse then
What Miami rumors?
Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...
How about we leave well enough alone for now?
I don’t get it. Here we are on a 4 game winning streak and I don’t remember how long it’s been since we’ve seen one of those, and all you can think of is how can we mess it up.
Enough of these trade polls!
Nope
I don’t want this trade.
The Kings are 5-4 WITH Nocioni playing a big role in that. The Bulls, who are a better team than the Kings, as of this moment, are 4-6 WITH Dalembert playing a small role.
I don’t see how this trade helps much. Yes, the Kings could use a defensive center but Dalembert is no Mutombo, Parish or Walton. Not even a Vlade.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
Sixers - but point taken
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Who is doing the filter search
for how SD played (and his opponents fared) against the better C’s in the West?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
You have been handed that assignment. :)
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Nov 17, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
Anyone else think that these rumors might be being leaked to try to get Spence to work harder?
Sounds crazy to me, especially because we do need another Center, but these latest trades have been about guys who would almost definitely replace Hawes in the starting lineup. Could this be some secret crazy Petrie/Westphal motivation tool?
Anyway I don’t know if I really want Dalembert. Hopefully he’d have an attitude adjustment if he was traded here. He would be the best interior defender we would have had since Keon Clark though.
Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.
I'm sure he'd be painful to watch on offense
but its tought to argue with his rebounding and shot-blocking.
Professional Hyperbole Slayer
Getting Dalembert would be like
watching Desmond Mason and playing 4 on 5. Tyreke would start to get frustrated when he lobbed when doubled and saw the ball go out of bounds instead of being jammed into the basket.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Nov 17, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like
the Okafor trade scenario better. I think Okafor is more solid (on and off court) than Dalembert and if we don’t have to part with Noc right now I’d be happier about that. Noc’s expanded role may be one of the reasons the Kings are playing better.
Purveyor of Bull Plop
Sacramento
Looks like we are being viewed as the NBA dumping ground for ugly contracts. It would be nice to hear about some deals that actually make us a better team, solidify our long-term outlook AND have a positive financial impact.
If we’re going to do a deal, I hope we do it sooner rather than later so we can focus on the team.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Nov 17, 2009 11:30 AM PST reply actions
Well
It would be nice to hear about some deals that actually make us a better team, solidify our long-term outlook AND have a positive financial impact.
I think in a perfect world you could get all three. In reality, if you are getting two of the three you’re doing ok.
OK
I choose:
a) make us a better team.
b) have a positive financial impact.
I don’t think the deals that have been thrown around to date meet both criteria.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Nov 17, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe it ain't so bad, let's back up a bit
In thinking about these trades and why we should do it. I am wondering if we should look at it another way.
The real deficit on the team roster in defensive low post presence. We need a low post defender who can take on the Shaqs and similar, but maybe it really isn’t that bad. Maybe we don’t need to go there now.
How many games are we going to lose against teams with these types of players? A good number yes, but maybe not enough to make it worth trading away Noc to get somebody.
Here is my thought. We keep Noc and have him play 4, then run the legs of the teams with these monstrous bigs. PW is a master of using the talent he has and maybe that is going to be enough to win some of these games.
How many losses this season to we get from the lack of low post D versus losses due to not having Nocioni? Maybe this cancels each other out a bit…
I was initially into this trade, but maybe we need to back up a bit…
I'd RATHER....
…see THIS trade applied to Emeka Okafor….
Kings get: Okafor, Giddens
Celtics get: Nocioni
Hornets get: Allen, Thomas, Scalabrine
That way, we escape SOME of the financial pressures of Okafor, and land a SOLID piece that is much needed. If we move the 20+ million that is Nocioni, then Okafor’s financial liabilities are close to 25-30 million over 5 years, rather than the 50 million.
Since we’re already on the books for Nocioni, why not just grab Okafor.
5-6 million a year for Okafor instead of Nocioni? Sign me up.
C: Okafor, Hawes
PF: Thompson, Brockman, May
SF: Udoka, Casspi, Greene
SG: Martin, Garcia, Giddens
PG: Evans, Udrih, Rodriguez.
On adding Noce to a contender
Kahn in Philippines:Rumors are running around like wild fire.. Nocioni will soon to be traded but to which title contender team does Nocioni suits better??
Luke Byrnes:Man, what contender doesn’t Noc fit? The guy is just a smart, gritty veteran. I’m not sure you could go wrong adding him.
(I know Pookey and others hate hoopsworld but I still agree with barnes, the lesser bonehead amongst them)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
I agree with that take about Noc
Seems to me pretty reasonable actually.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
.
We ought be more looking towards trading Noc for a future 1st round draft pick.
I see that as...
..an awful lot of wishful thinking. I don’t see a lot of teams interested in giving up expirings(future) AND a 1st rounder(future) for Nocioni. It’ll be one or the other, and contract help makes more sense to me, IMO as we’re kinda loaded with some young talent right now.
Besides...
…contenders are the ones targeting Noc, and do you really want a 25-30 range pick over other assets in that likely either/or scenario.
He goes on to say answering another question
that he thinks Noce is ‘The glue’ right now and he certainly wouldn’t give him away.
I agree again.
Giving up your expiring AND Noce just for SD? I don’t get it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
In the midst of all of this actual analysis
I neglected to commend Ziller on a terrific and hilarious write-up. Truly one of my favorite articles since I joined.
Losing Thomas… would not matter much to the product on the court. Just the product in my chest.
…should win an award of some kind, as well as the descriptions of Casspi and Donté.
Bravo.
"Sometimes the capriciousness of youth anesthetizes common sense." -Let Geoff's words guide our patience this season.
by AnotherStupidSN on Nov 17, 2009 12:19 PM PST reply actions
I hate Dalembert unless he works out really well for the Kings
I get the risk, I get the commitment, and at least people can’t complain that Sammy D is on the books for 4 years & 53 million after this season.
I think it’s funny that this Kings franchise keeps trying to save money every season while pushing money to the back end.
I also think it’s funny Kenny Thomas’ deal will actually finish in Philadelphia. There’s something funny about that to me.
Ah fuck it, do the deal. There probably isn’t a better deal out there that can help the Kings for the price.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Sure there is:
Sub Okafor in for Dalembert. Losing Noc’s deal is 20+ million…That drops the total financial commitment that we’re adding to only 30 million dollars. That’s an additional 5-6 million a year ON AVERAGE to have Okafor rather than Nocioni on our roster, over the length of their contracts. I DO THIS.
I still think Okafor...
…is ABSOLUTELY the best player we could hope for while only moving the asset known as Kenny Thomas’ expiring. Moving Noc is gravy, and SHOULD be done, as he makes too much sense for Boston.
A 3way with NOH/Boston revolving around the said pieces in this article with Okafor subbed in for Daly would be a DREAM trade for Sacto.
I find it interesting,
that a large number of STR members repeatedly have complained about Nocioni’s contract as well as our inability to play “D” in the low post.
Now that we have a deal that provides us with that “D” and doesn’t handcuff us too much financially in the future everyone is talking about what a valuable trade chip Nocioni is.
Lets face it, Hawe’s is,as I have heard so many times, only 21. By the time Dalemberts contact expires, we will have a good idea if Hawes will be our future or not. In the meantime, he provides a missing component on the team and will hopefully allow us to secure more wins which equals more ticket sales which may help secure the teams future in Sactown.
Do the deal!
By the way,
Nocioni will be moved prior to the trade deadline regardless of his play. He simply isn’t in the teams foreseeable future. That being said, what more could we really get. If Hawes gets injured we are screwed bigtime.
by nothingbutnet on Nov 17, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
We can get a better deal than Dalembert
Okafor is a better deal for sure.
Dalembert is NOT the tough, gritty player that we need to fit in. At least Okafor, while being slightly undersized, would play hard for us. He is also more versatile; he could play with Spencer or Jason. If we had Dalembert on the court with Spencer, we would be in trouble.
Dalembert is a decent defensive rebounder, he gets good position, and he is very tall. But he is slow, he is not a good defender, and he has no offensive game.
Okafor, on the other hand, has a reputation of actually being a good defender and team guy. He is much more mobile, and he is a better overall rebounder, actually. And he can make some inside shots. All Dalembert has is a 12 foot jumper.
Okafor costs more. But i think the best option is to trade Kenny for him straight up, and THEN see what we could get for Andres. It would be easier to deal with Boston alone than include Philly anyway.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
I think you underestimate Sammy D a little
Dalembert has played with ball hogs most of his career – AI and John Salmons. He does have oven mitts for hands, but he has better post skills than Hawes or JT, IMO. I think dude needs a change of scenery. Could do wonders for a guy to get out of Philly, their revolving coach carousel, and play on a team who can best utilize his talents.
This deal makes more sense to me than Okefur. I envision us playing a lot of a 3 guard line-up of Evans, T-Rek, and MuyBeno in a couple of months. Going small in the backcourt necessitates more size up front, a la JT and SD.
I am not excited by Okafor. He is an undersized, underachiever with a mammoth deal. Give me Sammy D, he is due for a career revival, he is a legitimate 7’1", and will swat all the weak sh*t. Sammy is 28 and is playing for one last contract. This year and next would be a contract run, whereas Okafor can afford to coast.
I like this deal too because it pencils in Donte as our back-up ‘4’ (where he belongs). If we get Okefur, who can swing to ‘4’ with Hawes, and vice versa, Donte’s development could be curtailed. Sammy D and Hawes can share minutes exclusively at ‘5’ and give us great combined production from that spot.
I think we can afford to wait a couple of weeks minimum on this deal, continue to assess where we are as a team, get closer to K-Mart’s return, get more use out of Noccioni, and see if trade partners will sweeten the pot, and get more desperate nearer to the deadline.
I would love to see Donte develop enough to play the 4
and Westphal will do that when he is ready, no matter who is ahead of him, depending on matchups.
Also, I am concerned that Dalembert may actually be older than his profile says. I don’t necessarily trust the Haitian birth records circa 1979.
Also, are you sure you would want to call it a career revival? I never noticed Samuel as ever having that successful a career. I think Philly just really hoped he would fill that Theo/Dikembe role. When he showed the slightest bit of potential they overpaid.
Okafor is overpaid as well, but he is the better rebounder, better man to man defender, better at defending pick and rolls do to his excellent mobility for a center. His blocks are not as high. But besides intimidation, blocks are not as important as you might think. If you block a shot out of bound, the same team gets the ball back. My question is where do most of Dalembert’s blocks come from: from weakside help or from covering his man. Okafor is known for blocking his own man with his 7’4" wingspan and 9’2.5" standing reach. Blocking your own man actually leads to turnovers.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
check out Okafor's explanation of shot blocking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQjY3M-X3h0
dude knows his stuff. some awesome highlights of him blocking Duncan and then Tony Parker on the break
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
by Ice_9ine on Nov 17, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, I not only liked the video, I liked him - a Lot!
It sells me a little more.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
Why not just trade Nocioni to the Celts for some of their expirings?
I’ve been saying for awhile we could trade him there. Why not just trade him for some combo of Scalabrine, House, Allen, Giddens and just let them expire? That puts us under the cap enough to go for a big name free agent, without killing our season. Plus we’ll still have solid contributors like Kevin, Tyreke, and JT to help lure a big name player who wants to win. I know people think we can’t land a big name free agent, but we could have the cap room as well as the talent to surround a new star. Of the teams gearing up for next summer’s big free agency we’re one of the few with a winning record. I know its a small sample size and I know some of the other teams (Nets, Minny) are dealing with injuries. But I think we have more of a chance than anyone here gives credit for.
www.mancancook.net
We don't have enough slots,
to bring on that many players. Isn’t 15 players the max?
by nothingbutnet on Nov 17, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Mason is long gone
1 spot is open
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
we could just waive a couple dudes
no real need for a Brian Scalbrine here
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
You have to have the spots open
Before the trade. Who do you waive we have now?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
Darn, eh, May and Sergio? Or include them somehow? I dunno.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
Sergio can go bye bye anytime,
I am simply not impressed. His “D” is atrocious. No pun intended, but he looks like a mexican jumping bean. He’s moving, he’s expending energy, but everyone blows by him like he’s not there.
Good on assists because he simply can’t shoot that well.
I feel, he is the weakest link on the team followed closely by May.
by nothingbutnet on Nov 17, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions
I like this trade
Remember, Dalembert was averaging a double double and 2 blocks per game a few seasons ago and isn’t really on the decline (he’s still 28). Given minutes, I’m sure he could put up big numbers like that, again.
As far as this trade goes, the Kings would have a chance to finally free up the glut of players at the SF position. It would free both Greene and Casspi, as well as provide Garcia a few more minutes when he gets back. I don’t understand the reason why the Kings need to be 4 deep at SF and 1 deep at C.
This trade would also clear up a bunch of money for the 2011 market if Dalembert doesn’t pan out, since Dalembert’s contract doesn’t expire until the end of the 2011 season.
The way I view this trade, it’s low risk, fairly decent reward.
The casual fan
(forget what i think as I’ve been repeating myself)
are starting to get to know and admire Noce. if you trade him for a meh, I think its a turn-off. They’ve got to get the fans excited. Exciting players or more wins will do that, but will subtracting Noce and adding dalembert do that, increase wins? I don’t see it.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
they get completely turned back on the next time someone throws an alley-oop to greene or casspi drains a three...
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
Man, we are all way too impressed with Greene
Most of his filler time was in games that weren’t close. He still looks like a liability and a project out there to me. Noc may be movable, but I think that is because of Garcia later and Casspi. I hope they don’t count on Greene unless he is truly ready.
So, if you deal Noc, you would be relying on a young rookie until Garcia comes back and a project. They are better off keeping Nocioni for the stability he brings at the position until Garcia is back, if he can even come back this year.
Fantasy sports author for Rototimes and Fanball. Northern California sports fanatic. Kings blog: Kingskingdom.com
I think adding any good defensive minded center with decent offensive abilities will add more wins
If Hawes gets hurt, who’s our Center? Maybe the Kings could put JT in the C spot, but May would also be there. The Kings need a true C to rotate with Hawes, not 4 or 5 SF’s.
Which is why, after some soul searching, I am for the Okafor trade
(based on a 1 for 1 swap) He is used to playing C and can play PF. I also think there’s a chance he would score more if encouraged.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Nov 17, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
I think Okafor is our man. He has been on some bad teams. He deserves a chance.
He is a proven winner in college though. He is a very smart player. I think our coaching staff, specifically Carrill, can really help him improve his shooting and passing. And he is a super hustler and tough defender. For the amount of defensive rebounds and loose balls he can get, and the benefit of a good young team and smart coaching staff, we could live with the money. Especially if the front office finds a way to cut out Andres salary by the deadline.
Another flaw in the human character is that everybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance. Vonnegut
I like Okafor too,
but it sounds like it ain’t going to happen.
Time will tell.
I like trying to pick up Kaman would have been good. His recent production however probably makes this a no chance deal as well.
by nothingbutnet on Nov 17, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
no to okafor
I am glad it sounds like it is not going to happen. I just don’t understand why you would want to tie up our economic flexibility. Signing guys like Okafor and Dalembert don’t make you championship contenders…even if our other talent pans out. I would rather be a lottery team every year and have a chance to draft elite talent and build that way than be a mediocre team with a bunch of money tied up for years to players who could only ever lead us to a 7th or 8th seed.
Is Noc sitting
more because of his hip flexor or his impending trade???? That’s the question tonight.
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