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Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

"You expected them to be a lot worse without Kevin Martin, but Martin takes the ball out of Tyreke Evans' hands and Beno Udrih's hands. Now they have Tyreke and Beno attacking the other team's worst defenders, they've loaded up the floor with shooters and they've taken one of their weakest defenders off the floor. Having said all that … I still don't know how the hell they're winning games.

"They've played more free-flowing. It's more by committee now. Sometimes in the past they worked so hard to find [Martin] that three other guys ended up sitting and watching. How are they going to work [Martin] back in? If they put him on the floor with Tyreke and Beno, other teams are going to take advantage of them when they do it. Maybe they try to trade him."

about 2 years ago Purpled_tiny edm7 39 comments 1 recs  | 

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This is what I don't understand
Now they have Tyreke and Beno attacking the other team’s worst defenders, they’ve loaded up the floor with shooters

Isn’t Kevin Martin one of the most efficient shooters in this whole league? A career 39% shooter from 3 is not a good shooter to add to that ‘new strategy’ the Kings are using?

And then this

Sometimes in the past they worked so hard to find [Martin] that three other guys ended up sitting and watching

In the past? You mean last year when we had a horrible team where the only real offensive threat was Kevin who only played a third of the season. Kevin doesn’t demand or need that many touches, he HAD to because we had no one else.

Am I missing something here? Maybe I’m just really dumb and just don’t get it so could someone who’s smarter than me help me out with this?

Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...

by edm7 on Dec 5, 2009 2:38 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

With

And I’ll preface this with the statement that I am not against trading Martin, but I think that it is ridiculous when I see suggestions that the Kings need to dump him or give him away (that is not what the scout said here, but I have seen this crop up again and again).

I am surprised that this “scout” would not know his craft well enough to also state that Martin historically has not needed a lot of touches to be effective. As far as being a weak defender, Martin was certainly looking good prior to the injury, but five games does not erase last year’s debacle, injured ankle or not.

I will agree with the notion that Martin is more expendable due to Evans’ rapid ascent, Udrih’s re-birth and Greene’s emergence. But if Martin is to go, something tangible should be coming back in return.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 5, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree section

and I’m also not against trading Martin. But if we were to do it we better get something of good value back. To me that is either a top pick or a proven (or up and coming) star ala Bosh or Granger (Speed would have to be part of the package of course).

I really wanted to understand these scouts because unlike writers these guys actually attend games. I was very dissapointed with the analysis to say the least.

Godfather of the "nice ass" movement.... the future begins now...

by edm7 on Dec 5, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Martin has been a weak defender, but weaker than Beno?

I just don’t see how the team is better with Tyreke/Beno than it will be with Tyreke/Martin.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Dec 5, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Beno is a better ballhandler

but yeah – doesn’t make any sense.

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims

by iashwash on Dec 6, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Something tangible?

To Toronto: Kevin Martin and Sean May
To Sac: Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan

Young Core:
1 – Evans
2 – DeRozan
3 – Bargnani
4 – Thompson
5 – Hawes
Bench – Casspi, Greene, Brockman

Just an idea so don’t feed me to Jewbacca…

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by sroufe on Dec 5, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not the biggest Bargnani fan,

but he is only 24 and he has gotten better every year. I can’t say that I would be for this, but it is a very interesting idea.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 5, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't be happy with this trade

But I also wouldn’t be offended. Bargnani and DeRozan have been terrible defenders this year though.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Dec 5, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I like this idea -

I wonder what it would truly take?

Martin/Greene? Martin/Casspi? Martin/top 3 protected draft pick?

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 5, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Martin/Top 3 protected pick works for me

The pick in the next draft would most likely be a big. Bosh is way good enough of a big for us.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Dec 5, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I saw this...

And once again I wondered what kind of trade package the Kings would target if they felt the need to move Speed. I went to the ESPN trade machine and I really couldn’t find something that made a lot of sense.

Really, what positions would the Kings target? Center makes the most sense, but that would assume they want to keep Evans splitting time (or fully starting) at the 2. And which of the top centers would be available? I’m not saying that Martin won’t be traded, but I need some help visualizing a trade that would make sense.

by nobodyinparticular on Dec 5, 2009 3:10 PM PST reply actions  

Just tried a trade in the machine...

And this is an unrealistic as Jordan coming out of retirement to play for the Kings, but here it is:

Kings get:
C Emeka Okafor
PG Chris Paul

Hornets get:
PF Kenny Thomas (i.e. expiring contract)
PG Sergio Rodriguez (another 1.5M expiring)
SG Kevin Martin

Kings starting 5
PG1 Chris Paul
PG2 Tyreke Evans
SF Casspi/Greene depending on matchup
PF Jason Thompson
C Emeka Okafor

Hawes comes in to spell Thompson at PF (Okafor/Hawes on the court ala Divac/Miller) as well as Okafor at C.
Udrih continues to play in a 3-man guard rotation with Paul and Evans.

One has to admit that this makes the Kings an interesting collection of talent. ;-)

by nobodyinparticular on Dec 5, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

New Orleans would not trade the best point guard in a league

And one of the better Defensive Centers for Kevin Martin and 2 expiring contracts. No way in hell. If hell froze over, they still would not do this trade.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Dec 5, 2009 8:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Right

I tried to convey this with my opening statement “this is as unrealistic as Jordan coming out of retirement to play for the Kings.” I guess I wasn’t entirely successful.

This trade did not come out of the “Maybe this will happen” trade factory but the “Look! The contracts actually align for this to happen! It’s not even remotely in the realm of actuality, but the hardware logistics line up.”

by nobodyinparticular on Dec 5, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess I missed that part.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Dec 5, 2009 10:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I love it

when the numbers add up in that trade machine thingy
(couldn’t help myself NIP)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Dec 6, 2009 1:33 AM PST up reply actions  

yup yup

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims

by iashwash on Dec 6, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

This is why we need a single thread for that type of discussion

Because I thought it was funny enough to read, and he warned me he knew it didn’t work so I didn’t bother criticizing.

GREENE! You’ve been superfluously apostrophe’d! - andy sims

by iashwash on Dec 6, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Allow me to translate for the "scout."

“We hope that someone high up in the Sacramento organization, or one of the Maloofs, gets it into their head that the success the team has seen against a schedule of the league’s weaker teams means that the team is better without an all-star caliber shooting guard than they will be when he’s healthy again. So, we’d like to offer [lame overpaid player contract] for Martin, who is clearly a team cancer. And oh, boy! I sure love the trade machine HYUCK!”

Because the fact that Paul Westphal has managed to get productive efforts out of his current roster also means that he can’t get Martin to play above his head, too.

Some days you wake up, and quickly become convinced that everyone is stupid.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Dec 5, 2009 3:21 PM PST reply actions   3 recs

rec'd

for general awesomeness

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Dec 6, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm at the point where moving Cisco & Noc is first priority

Kevin Martin will continue to have value regardless of how good the fit Tyreke & Speed is.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 5, 2009 4:16 PM PST reply actions  

I doubt Cisco will be moveable until next season

He needs 20 good games to prove to everyone he is the old Cisco, I have my doubts that will come this season.

by ElRonToro on Dec 5, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 5, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions  

plus he's BYC

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Dec 6, 2009 1:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Indeed sir :)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 6, 2009 2:30 AM PST up reply actions  

This only makes sense if you really think Evans is a 2

We have a solid starter and back up at the PG. We have plenty of guys who can play the three. We have a great PF and some okay back ups. We have a player who could be a top center for years to come, but is still learning. But if K-Mart is gone, we do not have another 2 who can shoot the lights out, drive to the hoop, and draw fouls like crazy. Evans’ jumpshot is getting better, but he will never be a guy you have to guard every second at the three like Speed is. Westphal has shone a great deal of success with mixing and matching line-ups. K-Mart and Evans may be the best backcourt in the NBA by the end of the year. Evans, Beno, K-Mart, Casspi, and JT could wreak havoc on the scoreboard. I think teams are hoping we will trade Martin, but I just don’t see other teams valuing him as high as we do. It’s crazy, but with a healthy Martin, this team could reach the playoffs. Now if we are talking about packaging some combination of Garcia, Noc, and K-9 for some front court help, I am all over that. But Speed, not unless the offer is amazing—which I don’t think it will be.

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Dec 5, 2009 4:37 PM PST reply actions  

Evans continues to show what needs to be shown - tonight against the Suns 7 assists, no TOs

but that is different than what Paul Westphal has shone(1) (2).(SB, where is your editor?)

Unless a great deal arrives, the current ambassador of the Kings, Kevin Martin, will remain. I don’t see this issue resurfacing on the Kings side until the summer (Feb treade deadline too soon to assess the Kings with Martin).

by betweentheeyes on Dec 5, 2009 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Apparently this scout doesn't realize that Kevin is probably most effective doing what the Kings have been doing

How does this scout not understand that with how well Kevin plays without the ball in his hands that a free flowing offense will be great for him? Last year they constantly looked for him because he was all they had. We didn’t have Tyreke and Beno was sucking it up. You can’t say that Kevin Martin won’t fit with two guys he hasn’t played with based on previous seasons when one of those two guys wasn’t here and the other wasn’t playing to his contract.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Dec 5, 2009 9:29 PM PST reply actions  

Maybe the scout works for the Grizzlies

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 5, 2009 11:10 PM PST up reply actions  

If the "scout" worked for the Grizzlies

He’s be proposing a way for Martin to end up playing for the Lakers, wouldn’t he?

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Dec 5, 2009 11:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Probably

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 5, 2009 11:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Can't be

Since the Grizz have no scouts. Perhaps the Nets.

Father of the "Natt this!" movement and Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order.

by Aykis16 on Dec 5, 2009 11:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe he's a scout for Custer

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Dec 5, 2009 11:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Is it possible to be worse?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 5, 2009 11:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Something will have to give eventually

but if the reason is that we have too much talent to let rot on the bench

Its all good.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Dec 6, 2009 1:37 AM PST reply actions  

Apparently this scout is truly convinced Beno has become something

because he’s taking it as a given Beno needs lots of time. Apparently Beno is so good now, Martin is going to have to work to take time from him?

I just don’t see it. Beno is not better than Martin at anything except ballhandling. I just don’t see us playing the three of them together a lot. When Kevin and Cisco come back, if Tyreke is still having issues getting us in our offense, I could see starting Tyreke/Kevin/Cisco for the extra ballhandler, and that group wouldn’t be bad defensively.

Professional Hyperbole Slayer

by ForThree on Dec 6, 2009 5:20 PM PST reply actions  

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