Working Out the Stoudemire Possibilities

I'm going to ignore the Amare part of this

I suggest reading Amick’s blog post to get an idea of how bad financially it is for the Maloof’s right now with regards to the Kings. (I knew it was bad. It wasn’t that surprising. It’s not that I feel bad for anybody though.)

I would suggest leading to the audio that Amick did with Cuban. There are some good points there.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 6:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

If you dont' want to listen to the audio

Amick transcribed it for you, and that’s below. Also, there’s a great video clip of Kevin Johnson talking about the city saving money, and eventually talked about the Kings towards the end of the clip.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 7:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re:update

No.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 8:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Here's a question

What price would be OK for Amar’e in your view? The maximum package you’d personally support?

by Ziller on Feb 11, 2009 8:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want Amare period

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Think about this for a moment TZ

I’m talking about a guy who could be a sheer double double, and is effected negatively by Shaq in this regard, as he was Marion before.

Here is a pro Amare argument. It’s the basic argument of: If Amare scores 25 a night, and the guy he’s going up against scores 22, how is that a bad thing?

There are alot of reasons I don’t want Amare, but the main one is there isn’t Steve Nash on this team to feed him the ball, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Nash’s decline has coincided with Amare’s. That’s it in a nutshell. Take from it what you will.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 8:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But...

there’s a good chance that there will soon be a Ricky Rubio here to feed Amare the ball. crosses fingers

Also, Pete Carril has changed up our offense these last few games and it’s been remarkably better. You don’t think he can find a way to work Amare in?

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 11, 2009 8:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course he can find a way

This isn’t about Stoudemire’s viability in Carril’s offense. (But, it would make sense they go up-tempo with Rubio around.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to trade our pick :(

by kingme on Feb 11, 2009 8:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not our pick

Houston’s and one of the late firsts from OKC. We keep our top 5 pick.

by Ziller on Feb 11, 2009 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

oh

This is a go for me then. Here’s to hoping that Amare can become another Cwebb

by kingme on Feb 11, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Won't be a top 5 pick if we have Amare for half the season.

I’m guessing we’d win at a better clip and end up with, maybe, a top 10. Top 5 only if we really luck out with the ping pong balls.

by R-Man on Feb 11, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Running the numbers

We would most likely still finish with one of the worst records, even with the addition of Stoudemire. First, it’s not half the season – there are only 28 games left after the break.

So, let’s say the trade makes us twice as good – turns a .200 team into a .400 team. That would bank us 11 or 12 more wins down the stretch, giving us 22 or 23 on the season. That would make us the 4th worst team in the leaague at everyone’s current rate, better than Washington, the Clips and OKC (and OKC has been playing better lately).

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 11, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Sit KM to rest his ankle

The worst record hardly ever get the #1 pick anyway

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm OK with the update

It gives us Stoudemire and Hawes or Thompson up front, Martin stays at the 2, Garcia slides into the starting lineup at the 3. We retain our lottery pick. And once we’re out of Miller and K9(woof!), we could add another $10 million talent.

Here’s the thing – there is no perfect fix. Webber was not a perfect fix at the time of that trade. Stoudemire, Boozer, even Bosh are not the perfect fix. But it’s the risk that we have to take. I prefer our chances of retaining one of these guys by having their Bird rights as, as opposed to competing for them on a “level” playing field in 2010.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 11, 2009 8:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I’m ok with the updated trade, and was totally against the initial Amare speculation. I am certain I am in the minority, but I’d actually rather send JT along than Hawes in this deal. I like Hawes’ skill set in combination with Amare better than JTs.

What I like about this option is we still have our #1 and we have tons of flexibility with it. On the day of the draft, we need a PG, SF or there’s even still room for a big guy, even with Amare + Hawes or JT.

I’m not willing to give a good #1 and either JT or Hawes, but one of those pieces I am fine with.

by ForThree on Feb 11, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

While I disagree with sending JT instead of Hawes, I think you make a very good point regarding skill sets. JT and Amare have a lot more similar games.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Feb 11, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But

JT would do a better job of making up for Amare’s defensive woes

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 11, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

JT can hit the weight room

and play Center.

i don’t agree they have similar games now – or ever will.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Section better keep that head explosion picture handy

Looks like we might need it.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 8:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

My head isnt' going to explode

I’m telling you that. As much as I hated the Artest trade when I heard, I didn’t die from it. I just stopped giving a shit. Exactly is what’s going to happen here.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Giving a shit

Luckily for us, you’re version of not giving a shit is still a far more passionate fan than 99% of people out there.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Feb 11, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs

Rec'd

For truth.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

To the topic at hand

If we are going to break up Shock and Hawes, my heart says Hawes should go (in that I think JT will be the better player long term and it would be painful to watch some other franchise develop him), but my head says Hawes should stay, as he and Amare seem like a better frontcourt fit.

Either way, I’m on the Amare bandwagon – the guy is 26, he’s a physical freak, and would be the main man here – making him worth the risk IMO. Add a nice player with the high draft pick this year, add a decent head coach, and suddenly the ship is sailing in the right direction.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree I'd rather keep JT.

There are already talks of rotating him to center and his ability to rebound, last night exempted, is a great attribute to have.

There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru

by moproblemz on Feb 11, 2009 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

When I see our team salaries I get the feeling that we really don’t have nothing to offer for Amare or any other Star right now. The only “big” expiring contract is Jackson’s. Miller and Moore still have 2 years, so it’s kind of pointless to the Suns or any other team to take them.

There are other 1-year expiring contracts out there, much more useful than our crap (Moore, K9 – at least Brad still has some basketball value), like Wally, LaFrentz, Kidd, Marion, Bibby, Bass, AI, McDyess, Rasheed, Artest, Odom, Andre Miller, JO etc).

The way I see it there are 2 ways:

1) Petrie pulls something spectacular and manages to get rid of Brad, Moore, K9, Udrih this summer. The real building begins and we all change our sigs to “in Petrie we trust”.

2) We make the full wait to 2010 until all crappy contracts expire normally. Maybe trade a couple of them for youngsters and meanwhile draft high pick rookies. Slowly and steadily we create a playoff team in 2012.

by ZenBaller on Feb 11, 2009 8:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Man

I hope they make some sort of splash as far as trades go.

Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina. .

by shadow1480 on Feb 11, 2009 8:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think we're gonna lose Pookey

Why would PHX want Hawes, cap space, and two late firsts if they can have LMA, Bayless, and cap space they don’t have to pay from a team outside of their division?

I would be thrilled to see Amare in a Kings uniform, but I don’t think there’s any chance if packages like this Blazers one are in discussion.

by furious.d on Feb 11, 2009 8:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Because ...

… there’s no way Portland is going to give up LMA and Bayless for Amare. Berger and his source are off their fricking rocker.

by Ziller on Feb 11, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Question:
Can’t we use one of our trade exceptions as part of the deal? Or does that not work for some reson?

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not for Stoudemire the Kings can't

You can’t use a trade exception in conjunction with players, for example: Artest’s trade exception + Jackson + Moore + Hawes can’t be done.

The Kings could acquire somebody like Matt Barnes with their trade exception because that salary fits under the amount the exception is for.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

I'd be down

for that as a side deal. Kings should be going after local products like Barnes and Ryan Anderson to help fill the seats.

by LPKingsFan on Feb 11, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nostalgia Won't fill the seats.

Need some Star Power – and soon.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

it did last week

Only one night, sure, but if we’re going to be losers, we might as well be lovable losers.

by LPKingsFan on Feb 11, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Umm

Barnes and Anderson don’t fill near as many as players as C-Webb and Vlade do just visiting for a night

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 11, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, We're not THAT small a city....

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Kings fans used to root for Tizzy

They just were priced out when the ticket prices went up. Had that not happened, I’m convinced the Kings could still sell out.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think there is any chance of the KIngs getting a deal done

If they can’t take more money back in a deal. Sarver is trying to get under the luxury tax. The Kings are trying to shed money themselves.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We might be able to shed some salary

in a Bmiller deal though (?)

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt Phoenix will deal Amare before the All-Star game with it being in Phoenix

It will also create a hassle for the league.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that's true

but its going to hang over the league the whole weekend too.

by ForThree on Feb 11, 2009 9:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

For the fans yeah

Not for the league itself. There will be rumors spread, and questions asked, but the league will nip it in the bud.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But money is calculated for cap/tax reasons at the end of the season

so a later BMiller deal could still keep us from more salary this year.

Plus, Amare = more tix sales for those last 16 homes games dispite what Pook thinks. How many more? I’d say several thousand a game.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Players are paid over the course of the year

The luxury tax is calculated at the end of the season, probably around May.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm 99

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 11, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm 99

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 11, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

3rd time is the charm

I’m 99% certain the lux tax is calculated as of June 30th. Also the players are paid out over 110 games although I don’t know how that works.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 11, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No it's calculated before draft time

That’s why I say it’s done in May. It’s paid out before the draft BJ.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

2000 tix per game

x 15 games x $50.00

= $15,000,000 in revenue. hell, cut that by 1/3 and it should be worth it in sales this year and tix renewals for next year.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

add an 'a' please

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good lord I can't take this Amare talk anymore

No, no, no! He has been a whiny (sp?) snatch for years. He has been a cancer even when the Suns were winning and you guys want to add him to our roster? It just makes absolutely no sense if you watch any Suns games at all. The guy constantly looks like Eeyore.

Sorry, I feel better now.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again.
-Barney Stinson

by Red Reign on Feb 11, 2009 9:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Even if he doesn't work out

He’s an incredible trade chip next year.

Worth much more than we have now. We could really bank on it.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

As long as I can get a...

…guarantee we were going to flip him, then I would be willing to consider it. I have always been an advocate for looking beyond the box score. You have to look at the individual and I just feel like too many people gunning for this Amare trade don’t understand that.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again.
-Barney Stinson

by Red Reign on Feb 11, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow a minority voice

Didn’t think they existed anymore.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I tend to agree with a lot of your opinions.

Take that for what its worth.

I also am not advocating making a trade for the sake of making a trade and I feel like thats what we would be doing with Amare. Understandably, the fans want to make a change and so do I. However, I just want to make sure they are the right changes. That means don’t trade JT, Hawes, Martin.

Remember: no matter how hot you think that other girl is there is some dude somewhere sick of putting up with her crap.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again.
-Barney Stinson

by Red Reign on Feb 11, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yup pretty much

Amare’s on the block cuz the Suns gave up on him. This isn’t a Webber situation where you’re trading an older guy for a younger one. It’s the exact opposite.

Yes, you need to take risks to improve your team, but I don’t think Amare is it.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And

Amare’s been making excuses all along for the Suns losing. What would he do once he got here with this group?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

did everyone read the Aschburner ("Buyer Beware") piece on si.com?

some real knucklehead quotes from Amare in there…

Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.

by Holmdel on Feb 11, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Amare explosiveness factor will obliterate that

You shouldn’t be diametrically opposed to acquiring a 4 time All-Star who is 26. Yet, I am.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The same things were said about CWebb

at the same age, before and for a year + after he came
(and he also deserved them)

But in the end, talent wins out.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Webber/Stoudemire are not similar at this point

I’m sorry but the comparison’s are there, aren’t really applicable.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He has been a cancer since...

…the Suns were winning! This is nothing new for him. I don’t think I have been more fired up about a potential trade before. The guy is a cancer. Always has been. The city of Phoenix knows this and has been lobbying for his movement for at least the past 3 years.

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again.
-Barney Stinson

by Red Reign on Feb 11, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

I’ve been trying to make this point since the trade rumors started up, but I personally make a distinction between complaining on a marginal team and complaining on a championship caliber team (which the Suns were at one point).

People can make all the Webber comparisons they want, but unless I was totally mislead, Webber came off as a guy who desperately wanted to win. Amare is way more concerned about individual "STAT"s than winning. Probably why he doesn’t contribute on defense short of the block attempts. Just ask BSotS folks how many times a game Amare stands and guards no one since they have a better perspective than us.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

I was checking out Amare’s stats at Basketball Reference. He’s a 25 and 10 guy in the playoffs, which is a slight bump from the regular season. His PER is better in the playoffs as well. That doesn’t exactly scream of a guy who doesn’t like to win.

The guy has some deficiencies, but personally I’d rather have productive complainers than average NBA talents who offer your team no real upside. We’ve had this debate a few times here, but a guy like Amare Stoudamire is the type of player this franchise may need to take a chance on, unless we get damn lucky in the draft and get a superstar.

P.S. The guy is 26. Who’s to say he’s locked into the man he will be the rest of his life?

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I’d also like to point out that the same things said about Amare were also said about Marion when he was in PHX.

That’s not to say that both aren’t legitimate, just to say that it’s not like Amare was the sole dissenter in the Suns locker room.

Maybe the strength of the SSoL offense (inflated stats) is also what causes players to care too much about their individual statistics.

I don’t know, I’m just thinking out loud.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He be the 'MAN' here as well

dispite any early talk – it would be His Team. That does something to a player, makes them more responsible.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That would help a lot

He’s wanted to be the man when times were good, but that’s always been Nash’s job, but now times are bad and he still wasn’t asked to be “the man” because of Shaq.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 11, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Barbosa, Diaw and Amaré are all D'Antone guys.

I don’t think any of them will be left standing when this whole thing ends. And as a Kings fan, if we could add Amaré and Barbosa, deal Miller and Thomas for cap relief/Marion and run these guys out there with Martin, Beno and JT with a bench of Barbosa, Garcia, Brown, Moore and still have a high pick then I think Petrie cements his HOF credentials.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you ask Phx Stan

Amare and D’Antoni don’t like each other. I’m not sure how much Amare is a D’Antoni guy or not.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Like or dislike...

Amaré made D’Antoni’s system work amazingly well. They don’t have to get along to be a match made in heaven and it is the habits that Amaré learned in D’Antoni’s system that are running him out of town. I see this relationship as very similar to the Adelman/B. Miller relationship, Rick wanted to point out to everyone how he didn’t have the defensive players to have a great defense but in the same breath he needed Miller to run the offense he implements. Now that Adelman is in Houston, Brad is exposed for his weaknesses because his strengths aren’t being utilized to the fullest potential which would help to mask his deficiencies. If Amaré was still averaging 25 and 10 then no one would give a rats ass about his defense.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's never averaged 10 boards

Closest he came was 9.6 2 years ago in 06-07.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Btw other than the Amare stat point

I agree about Miller and Adelman. I think what RA really disliked is how poor shape Miller was consistently in.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

At the risk of being redundant

You just can’t ignore those deficiencies when you’re looking at the player as a whole. Amare’s offensive talent is worldbeat. His defense is not. Pooky commented already, but 20/10 isn’t all that great when he gives up close to that anyways.

Say the best case scenario happens and all the attitude problems go away. Who do you envision feeding Amare all his running dunks? I’m pretty positive defenses will lay off Beno on pick since he’s not even close to the shooter Nash is. What is your case for Amare putting up 55+FG% 20PPG on 13-14 shots on this Kings roster? If you agree that Amare is going to drop off, do you think that version of Amare with terrible defense, is that much more valueable than JT at 50 FG%.

I’m not saying JT has the offensive upside of Amare, but if you’re assuming one guy’s deficiencies will lessen over time then you have to assume a rookie will only get better.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There are a lot of assumptions there

Especially about JT, whom I like. There is no guarantee that JT will be any great shakes on the defensive end either – and I’m worried that many of us here are overvaluing a rookie that could be a good player, or could be very average. And I have my doubts that Amare Stoudamire is already as good as he’s going to get, since he’s only 26.

The point you can’t deny on Amare is that he is a freakish athlete. And that’s something the Kings could very much use on this roster.

Let’s be completely honest here – you and I both know that neither JT or Amare (if acquired) would be playing with the same cast of characters we see currently. So arguing that point is moot.

By the way, I looked at Amare’s stats last season and in 06-07 when Steve Nash was not in the lineup. Nash only missed one game last year, and Amare went for 21/14. In 06-07, Nash missed six games, and Amare went for just over 25 points and just over 11 rebounds per game in those contests.

Small sample size? Sure. But we may have to accept the possibility that this guy is a pretty damn good player.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Potential vs. Proven

It seems to me that the entire Amare argument can be boiled down to the phrase:

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Not to beat the analogy to death, but Amare is the “bird in hand”, while Shock & Hawes are the “two in the bush”.

So far they’re equal. But what if we could have the “bird in hand” and one of the “two in the bush”?

JT might be the next Amare, Hawes may become an All-Star, but Amare is a known quantity, and we’re only talking about giving up one of our high potential guys.

This is exactly the kind of risk that the Kings need to make, whether it’s Amare or someone else of his ilk.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If it was another All-Star

I would agree with you.But Amare is different, and walks to a different tune. So did Chris Webber but in a very good way. I’m tired of those comparisons anyway. Chris Webber had his collection on exhibit at the Crocker when he was traded to Philly. Amare probably couldn’t spell Frederick Douglass.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Everyone brings up Webber comps. with Amare, but completely ignore Artest. Artest was an amazing 2-end player when we traded for him. I don’t exactly recall people shedding tears when we traded him.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ron Artest is also far more intelligent

But that’s besides the point.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The only comparions I would make to Webber

Is in the overall situation. It’s about the scenario that allows a team like the Kings to acquire a highly talented player that wouldn’t normally be available.

As players, there’s no comparison…they are completely different.

And an Artest comparison is way off the reservation. Having to worry about a guy giving effort on defense versus worrying whether a guy is going to be suspended for domestic violence or retiring to become a rap artist are completely different scenarios.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Webber situation

We had Peja in the bank, Webber coming in by trade, cap space to sign Vlade, a #7 pick to select JWill and Corliss to trade for Christie.

Current situation:

Martin in the bank, Amare coming in by trade, cap space to sign a Vlade?(maybe, with the right trades, is there a Vlade available?), and a top 7 pick to select a JWill, and we have Cisco.

Could be. Big gamble.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely a gamble

But that Kings team was lightning in a bottle. I’m not sure you can use the same blueprint – namely because Rick Adelman ain’t never coming back.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1 big time smgmatt

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hang on

The only assumption I made of JT is that he’ll improve on his rookie numbers. He’s roughly a 53% FG in Jan/Feb which is probably good for top 20, so I’m rounding down in that regard.

Amare was a 47% FG shooter prior to Nash and while you cite seven games w/o Nash as your baseline, I think I’m being generous labelling Amare a 55% shooter. Of course, the coaching change makes a difference and most players generally improve so it’d be wrong to suggest he’ll be ineffective.

As far as the roster is concerned, of the ~9 rotation players the Kings currently use, I assume we both agree Salmons and Miller to be gone. I’m assuming a trade for Amare ensures us of having him for most of the two seasons. which leaves us w/o 2 of our best facilitators (IMO). Again back to the point, who does that leave to set Amare up? Amare isn’t a dump the ball inside player like Shaq or Yao. He has a very good outside touch for a big man and is perfect for pick-and-rolls. I just don’t see how he does that to the tune of over 55FG% with the Beno/Brown/Jackson bunch.

I’m not at all disputing Amare’s offensive game, but offensive alone doesn’t make for a great player or else Martin would be a top 10 talent. Defense, attitude, salary, etc. apply and all things considered, I just don’t think he’s worth it.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BOOOO.

I keep seeing this whole 47% shooter before Nash b.s. FYI- those two seasons were his first two in the league. If your into first two year stats, check out Steve Nash’s stats in his first two years. Or check out Nash’s stat jump when he moved to the Suns. Assists in his first year with Amaré jumped from 8.8 to 11.5. The next year, when Amaré injured his knee, Nash dropped a full assist off of those numbers. Nash’s MVP total with Dirk vs. Amaré? 0-2. Amaré made Nash just as good as Nash made Amaré.

This is one of the reasons I am interested in Amaré, he makes players around him better because the defense has to sag to help cover him, opening passing and shooting lanes for Martin and co.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BUT NASH WON THE MVP JJHAM!

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

2 MVPs-

One with Amaré and one when he was injured.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

There’s a possibility that they are both pretty damn good players.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But thats my point =\

Amare/Nash/D’Antoni system they all go hand in hand. It’s unrealistic to expect Amare’s 07-08 numbers here, but 25/10 keeps getting referred to =\. No Nash and slower pace will lead to somewhat of a drop-off wouldn’t it?

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You get better when your team is better

KM will look better with an aggressive ‘to the basket’ muscle guy to balance him.

But sure, it shows more with PGs when a team gets better than anyone else.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe, maybe not.

Amaré hasn’t really played with a player like Martin before. Although the Kings won’t be running the D’Antonio system, they still have a scoring offense which right now has 7 guys scoring in double figures. If Martin is turned loose with Amaré taking up some of the defense pressure, this could really be an explosive team.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not advocating trading JT either SS.

I want this guy on the team forever- to me he is untouchable along with Martin.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I see your point

I think our opinions differ because we anticipate a different Amare on the Kings team. If he continues his production, keeps his attitude in check, and improves his defense even marginally then he’s a steal, or Chris Webber the sequel. I’m just afraid of getting Artested.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Then you let him walk in a sign and trade in 2010.

Low risk if it only costs you Salmons, Hawes and Houstons pick with a bunch of expirings. I certainly think he is worth the risk and for those who think Martin might suffer I would point them to the Artest/Martin combo of last season. Amaré = better offensive flow and there is not a single person on this Earth that could convince me that Amaré plays worse defense than B. Miller.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

how many 20/10 guys were there in the NBA last season? Not as many as you think.

You makde a good argument for dealing kevin

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 11, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't like the idea of potentially losing JT or spence

but if the Kings could put this together I think they have to do it.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 11, 2009 9:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

OKC

Makes out like bandits in this proposed trade. Joe Smith’s contract and a late first rounder in a shallow draft, for a proven player like Salmons?

by ttylerbballcamper on Feb 11, 2009 9:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good, I hope they think so too

It just makes it easier for GP to get it done.

I still don’t understand the gap in value for Salmons. Some people seem to think he’s worth a Top 5 pick, others are willing to trade him for an expiring contract.

I think it’s obviously somewhere in the middle of all that, but I just find it interesting how wide the margin is.

Please don’t take this as anything regarding your comment per se, it just made me think about the discrepancy.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Smgmatt...

I think the discrepancy results it the erratic play by John. His outside shot is woeful inaccurate for a starting 2 guard in the NBA. He plays defense when he wants to , which isnt often enough. Sure he can be a Kobe stopper at times, but he has too man off nights shooting and is very inconsistent, I really like his attitude when he is starting but he gets a surly attitude when he is not. I think he need sa change of senery more that anyother player besides the B52-Bummer. IMHO he would make a great fit in Orlando, I hope he gets traded to a player who dosesnt need his outside shooting, and can use a slasher and a scorer who plays hard every night. I’s like to see Cisco play nightly and see what he can do,,

I have cut the Mouth and Nose out of my Paper Bag, but I am contemplating not cutting out any EYE HOLES so I don't have to watch this mess at all...

by FaStRmAn on Feb 11, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Small Forwards

shooting 42.5% for three and and 47.5% from the field clearly suck at shooting.

And its hard to crucify a guy for his defense on this team when frequently he’s the only guy playing any. At least he plays decent defense sometimes.

by ForThree on Feb 11, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Uhhh Salmons is a 3, meaning a Small Forward

it stinks up your whole argument.

You really should take those ADD pills you (hopefully) have sitting in your medicine cabinet and do a little previewing, spellchecking, and reading about basketball in general before spewing.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

In addition

There should be some kind of market for Salmons. I think a guy like him makes a heck of a lot of sense for some contenders. We saw Sunday that LeBron can’t guard both Kobe and Odom, so I’d presume he can’t guard Pierce and Ray Allen at the same time either. Also for teams like the Spurs or (not contenders necessarily) Blazers, who might be tired of having their primary or secondary scorer guarding the other squad’s star.

by ttylerbballcamper on Feb 11, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Because of his aforementioned baggage

I wouldn’t say he’s worth a Top-5 or even Top-10 pick. But in a weak draft like ‘09, a late first-rounder hardly seems worth the bother. Seems like a giveaway of talent. I don’t know, maybe I’m crazy.

by ttylerbballcamper on Feb 11, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

In this scenario he’s a piece used to acquire Amare . . . the Sonics might not be giving up enough for Sacramento if they were dealing directly with the Kings, but they’re giving something more valuable to PHX than SAC.

Don’t lose track the forest by looking too closely to the trees.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Something to consider

Sarver is calling owners and has called the Maloofs. So it really depends on how badly they want Amare, which knowing them they will. You saw how they got involved with the Artest trade. I think we can expect them to be trying their damndest to pick him up.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 11, 2009 9:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

WHAT A MESS!!!!!!

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

CORLIS!!!

Can we give Corlis one of those ’he’s not officially retired’ contracts to make something work?

We still have his rights I believe (did he ‘officially retire’?)

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 10:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

(ok, I'm reaching for shit here - but its been done before..)

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Problem is he did officially retire LOL

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Unless you just put down the bong this morning...

Trading ANY package from this roster of underachievers is a no brainier, I think that NO ONE is untouchable except J.T. Martin has been a defensive bust, His plus/minus numbers don’t lie, He has never indicated he likes playing with the Kings. Make this or something to help the Kings this year Petrie. I say that if the King stand pat ALL GAMES SHOULD BE BOYCOTTED FOR THE REMINDED OF THE SEASON. The GM and the Owners are strictly to be blamed for this debacle of a team. Lets gather and show Petrie and the Magoofs that the Kings fans are not to be trifled with. IF there is a master plan, then we eagerly await the changes necessary to make this team rebound from the Laughing Stock of the NBA, Petrie, don’t trade for salary cap space ! Its has not looking good in 2010 for any team now. Many teams are using the ‘10 season to cut payroll as an excuse to save money at the expense of a winner on the coart. The Kings have THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TALENT IN THE LEAGUE PERIOD! Petrie is to blame. The Owners Maloof signed off on every move, Any perennial loser status we have become has been a result of the poor decisions of Petrie and the Maloofs. They are under the gun now to produce a winner now rather that later. This will be Petrie’s last chance. The Maloofs gave Webber a chance to represent the Kings at the Lottery. Hope he doesn’t call a time out. I hope he brings out the luck of the good Sacramento years. What we don’t need is more something for nothing trades !!! I say boycott the team on any MORE something for nothing trades !!!! Tet the Maloofs that the crap is rolling down hill and enough is ENOUGH !

I have cut the Mouth and Nose out of my Paper Bag, but I am contemplating not cutting out any EYE HOLES so I don't have to watch this mess at all...

by FaStRmAn on Feb 11, 2009 12:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'll keep watching the games

as long as Brad Miller comes back soon, I sure miss watching him play.

by ForThree on Feb 11, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

That's just funny 43

by batso on Feb 11, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ouch (that hurts my eyes)

In the future, can you give us some more line breaks and a some less bold?

Thanks.

by smgmatt on Feb 11, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Or he could give us

Some intelligent content. You know what they say though – the first time is the hardest.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Stop it

This isn’t the Bee comments, man. Less bold, more line breaks, less screaming, or GTFO.

by Ziller on Feb 11, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

What do you expect from Him?

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

To be an adult like everyone else?

And if you’re not an adult in all actuality, act like one on here?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd actually much prefer Petrie trades Hawes out, rather than JT

The reason being is a big component to team success is not just bringing in great players, but forming one style of Basketball that everyone can play under. Amare is an athletic beast. Combine that with almost lumbering Hawes and you get 2 guys on the post who contradict each other. (Kinda like what happened with Shaq and Amare)

I think we have a good amount of speedy players in K-Mart, Udrih (ehh, ok, sorta), JT, and Salmons. Take out Hawes and insert Amare (+ one of the many nice PGs in the 09 draft) and you have the makings of a nice run and gun offense.

by CloudyEyes on Feb 11, 2009 1:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Let's talk turkey.

I posted this trade in this thread which included the Houston #1 pick and either San Antonio or Denver’s #1 from OK on Feb 5th. This trade makes all the sense in the world from the Phoenix stand point because I don’t believe that Sarver is trying to remain competitive today and the deal saves the Suns an estimated 28 million between salary and luxury tax for next season while it give the Suns a young big in Hawes and 2- 1st rounders to build with.

Phoenix 2009-10 cap figure of $76.4 mill –
-23 mill for Amaré/Barbosa + 2.3 for Hawes = a savings of 20.7
-dropping the Suns under the luxury tax saves 7.4 mill in match + whatever rebate for not being over the cap.
-total savings of 28.1 million – salary of draft picks if they are retained.

Hawes and 2 #1’s might not seem like a lot for Amaré but all of that money saved is.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 1:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Assuming I stuck around around if Amare ended up here (which I'm not)

I’d prefer Hawes over JT for only one reason: Amare doesn’t have a low post move, and doesn’t really create shots for himself down there. JT can, eventually I suppose, do that, and Shawes gets far more of his shots on the perimeter now than Amare. In my view, it would be wise to pair JT & Amare because JT plays closer to the block than Amare does. They also are great in the open court together.

Still not finding a single silver lining in this deal though.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

which I wouldn't be^

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Getting a guy like

Amare opens up the court for EVERYONE else though.
Because he Demands a double team.

Just a thought PG.

Blessings.Love.Peace

by lifestyleforthesellout on Feb 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you're going to tell me that Amare's presence is going to create more shots

You’re going to have to work much harder than just saying it. Even then I’m not convinced.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not more shots, better shots.

I look at Amaré as a guy who forces a defense to react to his position on the floor, not just to him with the ball. Think of the two man game with Martin and Amaré- with Garcia, Beno, Brown and Donté sitting on the wings and JT crashing the weak side. Add another reasonably high draft pick and maybe even Barbosa and this is a 4 or 5 seed next year.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

I'm going to stop arguing this

It’s not doing me any good but making me ill. It’s only making the pro Amare camp (most of StR minus a few folks) even more entrenched in the argument.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I Agree

Totally.

Blessings.Love.Peace

by lifestyleforthesellout on Feb 11, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't do it.

please, ……don’t ……do ……. it.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The Anti-Amare side vs the Pro Amare side

Anti Amare wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Grand prize? Status quo.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs

Patience

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Crickets at Arco Arena

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Becoming the Clippers

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Or the Trailblazers

I can go all day big fella. :)

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID!

For the ladies, ya know.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Except the Blazers model

fits more with my thinking than yours. They were patient and built thru the draft, now they are in position to make a trade to complete the picture.

You’re proposing a classic Clippers move, panic for short term gain, make the playoffs, and quickly fade into obscurity when Amare walks in 2010.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How is adding Amare

A panic move? Phoenix is not going to get 100 cents on the dollar for the guy.

You think Amare would walk rather than exercise a player option for 17.7 million? I really have my doubts.

Look, you are talking worst case scenario here. How’s this for a worst case scenario? You don’t get Amare, you get the #1 pick in another Pervis Ellison draft – Kevin Martin, JT and Spencer all turn out to be solid but unspectacular players – and you quickly fade into obscurity after grabbing the #8 seed in 2011.

Again, I think Amare is the kind of player this franchise should be willing to take a risk on. Yes, it is a risk, but so is standing pat.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, with 3 top 5 picks.

The Portland model is not feasible for the Kings. By the time you get all of those top picks, you are looking at the Las Vegas Kings because this fan base is already done with this team barring a major infusion of talent.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs

+1

nice take

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's something we don't bring into the argument much here

But it is relevant.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's relevant now

Because so much of the hard core part of the fanbase is now priced out. Too many bandwagon bitches who have the Maloof’s ear. Why? Cuz they priced all the hardcore muthafucka’s out of the joint.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 11, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

+1- but it is what it is.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A small market just HAS to sell tickets

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure that's really true

I would think the “hardcore muthafucka’s” would be able to see a game relatively cheaply. Grab a few of your buddies, get the $10 tickets, come in one car to save on parking, tailgate a bit in the parking lot so you don’t have to pay the enormous cost of a decent beer. You could get in and out of there relatively cheaply. Plus, these days you could buy a $10 ticket and probably sit 10 rows behind the Kings bench.

Just sayin’, I don’t think it’s the hardcore fan that’s being priced out. There’s a reason some fans are called “bandwagoners” – and not because they are supporting an 11-42 team.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Most of those tickets are sold on day 1 and...

If I’m not mistaken they are offered to season ticket holders before the general public which accentuates the problem.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was talking about HOPE

fans gotta have some

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure about that

I just went online, found a few upcoming games with $10 tickets still available.

Not for the Vlade retirement game of course. :)

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

There hasn't been a plan to buy into

When the team is just ‘drifting’…..

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1- Pookey has to have a song about that.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't advocating the Portland model

just saying it is closer to what I was arguing for than what he was arguing for.

Obtaining Amare is much more like the Clips getting Brand, or getting Davis and improving some and then topping out early only to end up right back where they started than anything Portland did.

As for the fan base. I’m arguing what I’d do to try and build a contender. Worrying about putting butts in the seats clouds the issue for sure. It’s a good argument for making the trade, but not for the trade being good for the future title hopes.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hah

I think TZ and 95% of the posters here > Pookey, Kfan, Red and a few others.

Also, I’m not anti-Amare. I just don’t want to go all in yet. I’d like to have a few more chips in our stack before we make this kind of trade.

IF we’ve only got $100 in our stack, and we go all in we can win $200(become a playoff team). I’d rather wait ’til we have $500 so we can win $1000(have a title shot).

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Important point

I think those of us who are pro-Amare are pro-Amare depending on what we give up. I wouldn’t advocate giving up the house for him, and keeping our #1 this season and one of the youngsters is important.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But is

Amare, Kevin, Hawes and the 7th pick in this draft going do get us anywhere?

I’d much rather have Kevin, JT, Hawes, a top 3 pick, and a top 7 pick next season or
Kevin, Hawes, top 3 pick, top 7 pick and Bosh.

I’m content to be very bad for another season, if it means a shot at something great. My biggest fear is we panic and end up topping out as a 5-7 seed.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to say

What happens with Salmons and Brad? Are they part of a deal for Amare? How do all these deals affect our cap space down the road?

I’m not advocating that Petrie submarine whatever plan he has in place for this franchise – I’d just hope a talent like Amare Stoudamire, who might be available relatively cheap, could be figured in as a nice piece to the ultimate puzzle.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's a tough call

I’m not totally sold on Amare, but I’m not against him as a player. I’m just not sure it’s a good thing for the team to be right back where we were last season at this time.

Last season: Kevin, Spencer, Salmons, Cisco, Beno, Artest. = 35 wins.

This season(with Amare deal): Kevin, Spencer, Salmons, Cisco, Beno, Amare. = ? wins next season, 35? 40?

I hear you on the other trades thing. If we can move Brad, K9, Mikki and Salmons and end up with 10 mil in cap space, what can we add this off season? Will it be enough? It really needs to be enough to put us over the top, because we’re going to have to give Amare the max to keep him. I’m just not sure it’s enough.

I think it would be wiser to wait a year and secure one more top draft pick.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

To be honest, I’d rather have Bosh myself (based on your earlier scenario), but that could be a pipe dream. Right now, Amare appears to be available, and the Kings appear to have a shot at him.

That might never be the case with Bosh.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

tough call. That’s why GP get the big bucks. I trust him to make the right decision.

But I fear the pressure to improve now, will over rule the desire to build a title contender.

1 more week. Hurry up already!

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 11, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Amare > Artest

Especially in a year from now when we are (Finally!) able to add some different pieces. Artest came when the team was in no-man’s land.

At a different moment, it might have worked.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I just don't know what better player

people expect to get with that cap space this summer(?).

And we’ll have more the next year.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

All the other players who are/will be available

Have no fewer question marks (and less outright talent?) – thats why they’re available.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How so?

I definitely agree on wanting Bosh, but why is it unrealistic (I don’t know much of Bosh’s situation)? I kinda felt Bosh was more attainable than Amare given he’s in the East. Yes, the Suns are actively shopping Amare, but I thought Bosh stated he’s not resigning with the Raptors so I assume there’s no way they’re going to let him go for nothing.

by SeeingStars on Feb 11, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My assumption is

If we had a chance to get Bosh, we’d have a hundred threads going about him now instead of Stoudamire. :)

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

These kind of guys just don't really become available

very often.
When they are, you’ve got to go for it if you can.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Trading Bosh is a franchise killer.

He’s a good citizen, a very good player and selling tickets in Toronto is hard enough. I’m sure the Raptors are going to want to get something out of Bosh but it will come in a sign and trade as a last resort just to save face with the fan base.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

The point I’d like to make is that the Amare situation is pretty rare. A 26 year old athletic wonder, and a 3-time all star, is available at a discount.

No matter which side you’re on, you’d have to admit that the Suns have right fucked themselves here.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 11, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

+1 - I hope its US that makes them regret it

That would be sweeet.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 11, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

2007 All NBA first team.

All NBA second team in 2005 and 2008. This tells me he is one of the top 5-10 players in the league and he played on some pretty damn good teams as well.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 11, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I’ll second the “Conditional Pro Amare” membership.

I think that the Bosh vs. Amare debate is pretty much beside the point, because Bosh isn’t available, and Amare is.

It was pretty much agreed here that the Kings wouldn’t get one of the Big Fish in the FA Class of 2010. Now there’s a chance to get one, and while it may not be the one that everyone wants, the odds have substantially improved (which is saying something because the odds are still stacked against it happening anyway).

I’ll also agree with Otis that Petrie shouldn’t dump his master plan, but I would hope that when something unexpected happens (like a Franchise quality player suddenly becoming available) that he would be able to adjust his plan to accommodate that, even if it’s just to help facilitate a deal to get extra assets out of it.

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 7:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why wouldn't we get a Big Fish FA?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 12, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Short List

Small Market
Rebuilding Roster
Roughly 1/3 of the teams in the League will have cap space in 2010 (including Miami & New York)

Follow-up Question:

Finances being equal, who on the following list would realistically choose to come to Sacramento instead of a larger market/better roster in 2010?

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudemire

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Then the logic eludes me

If Amare is a Big Fish, but he wouldn’t come here willingly as a FA, why to you think getting him in a trade is a good idea?

We’re a rebuilding team, with no stars and no bench, and even with Amare we won’t be a playoff team. He won’t be happy here. Hell, the players we have now probably don’t want to be here. He’ll hate it so much he’ll be a problem in the locker room and maybe on the floor. Eventually he’ll exercise his ETO and leave. Do we really want to give away young talent and draft picks for that?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 12, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Applying logic

If he (or anyone else that may become a max contract player) comes here via trade, the Kings can offer $25 million more in reasons to stay than they can if it is just a free agent signing. That is the reasoning.

My bet is that if the Kings had been on just a level playing field with Chris Webber, they would have lost him. The extra $20 million that only the KIngs could offer was a big part of the reason that he re-signed here.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 13, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Is Amare a franchise player now?

I though Nash was a franchise player. So 2 franchise players and Shaq and Grant Hill are struggling to make the playoffs?

Something doesn’t compute.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 12, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The computation is actually pretty easy

Shaq was thrown in the mix to make the Suns a little more traditional offensively. Nash and Stoudamire are both players who thrive in a more open-court type of offense.

The Suns screwed this thing up, not Nash or Stoudamire.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 12, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess it depends on your definition of "franchise player"

I wouldn’t put Amare in that category.

LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, KG, CP3, Howard, Yao, Wade, Nash(barely), (Shaq and Kidd in the past, but not any more)… and that’s pretty much it for me.

If Amare can’t thrive on a team running a more traditional offense, then I don’t see how he can be a franchise player.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 12, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No offense

But if that’s your definition of Franchise Player, then you will probably ALWAYS be disappointed.

Some of the guys you listed there are definitely worth more to their teams than other players I would give the Franchise tag to, such as Bosh, Amare, Carmelo, etc.

But even with your criteria only 3 of those guys won championships as the Alpha Dog, and only 4 have any Rings at all (those numbers become 4 & 5 with your extra two). And what did KG do in Minny? Yao in Houston?

Obviously there is a difference between Duncan & Bosh . . . but you can build a winning team around either (the difference is that one of them is the greatest PF of all time while the other is not).

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Always be disappointed?

No way. You have to be very lucky to have a franchise player. Not having one is not a reason for disappointment.

Paying a non-franchise player like a franchise player is a sure path to disappointment though, IMO. How’s that Elton Brand contract working out? Agent 0? Baron Davis?

KG in Minny? Sound a bit too much like Amare in Sac to me. And I think KG >>> Amare.

As for the rings, yeah you need more than just a franchise player. The point is if you’ve got 2-3 franchise players, you should make the playoffs. Hell you should win the title.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 12, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DEAR GOD NO

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT TRADE SHOCK..

k no more caps but honestly, amare is interesting to pair with our stud sg kevin martin…i just dont like the prospect of giving up thompson…im not so sold on spencer hawes just because of his nagging knee injuries but for jason thompson id have to say no…amare is off the books in 2 years, what makes you think he would actually stay in sacramento? unless hes willing to sign a contract extension off the bat i dont kno if id do this deal even for spence

Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!

by Robby1987 on Feb 11, 2009 5:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Millionaire Stars want a ring.

KG wanted a ring, so does Boozer, Bosh, Amare, and anyother player that doesn’t have one. If the Kings make a trade that forces a Star to come here, and we aren’t a finals contender then when their contracts expire, they will NOT resign with us. A long term contract which takes them past their prime years, and that might get them stuck here and never get them a RING will never get signed.

The worst team in the league, the worst defensive team in the league, a team with MLE players, one possible star, and 5 or more rookies and 1st yr players, is not going to be a contender for several (meaning 4 or 5 yrs). No quality player wants to be the best player on a bad team. If he is, he will be unhappy and will do everything possible to get off that team.

This team needs a starting center, a starting PF, a starting PG. Our starting SG needs more time to become a complete player, not just an offensive wonder. And, if we trade Salmons, we’ll have an undersized SF and no bench.

So, after we trade away all of our future, how long will Amare stay here? Only until he becomes a UFA. Would Amare resign with a up and coming team like Portland. Their a small market team like us, but their already a contender without him. I’m guessing that if they went far in the playoffs, he’s more likely to sign an extension with them. He’d NEVER NEVER sign an extension with US.

We can’t return to the glory days in 1 yr. We need at least 2 more excellent drafts and time for the youth to develop. There will always be Stars available and willing to come to a young contending team. But, until we get to be a contending team, any Star we trade for will be counting the days until they can get out of here.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 12, 2009 12:22 AM PST reply actions 2 recs

wonderful post (this time in the reply where it should have been)

rec’d for reality check

Though I will throw Shawn Marion at you for

The worst team in the league, the worst defensive team in the league, a team with MLE players, one possible star, and 5 or more rookies and 1st yr players, is not going to be a contender for several (meaning 4 or 5 yrs). No quality player wants to be the best player on a bad team. If he is, he will be unhappy and will do everything possible to get off that team.

by betweentheeyes on Feb 12, 2009 12:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Sorry, but it amuses me when people talk about players going after rings. Sure, I guess that happens once in a long while (mostly later in their careers), but primarily they are looking at the payday. I doubt a guy like Amare is going to take less than market value to get a ring, especially at 26 years old. And even moreso because he’s allegedly a selfish headcase.

The team that owns him will still be in the driver’s seat to resign him, although a sign-and-trade might be necessary. And the reality is that you’ll have to give the guy max money to retain him.

Almost to a fault, these guys take the offer that gives them the most money. Period.

Now, if you say that there will be other teams (better teams) with the resources to offer him max money when he becomes a UFA, that’s an argument I think would have merit.

So…let’s skip out on a chance at an elite young player, and wade through a few more miserable seasons to load up the talent on the roster. Then I’ll be sure to catch a few Kings games when I’m in San Jose/Anaheim/Seattle/Las Vegas.

P.S. I know everyone’s sick of it, but your last sentence sounds very similar to the arguments over C-Webb when he arrived in Sacramento.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 12, 2009 4:24 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs

Rec for Otis

These guys take discounts for rings when they turn the corner in their careers. I cannot recall one player ever rejecting a max deal and take less to play for a contender. I have seen guys like Grant Hil and Michael Finley do it, and they did it on the back side of their career. Baron Davis and Elton Brand – do you really think that they changed addresses this year in search of a title?

KG wanted a ring, but he did not take any discount to get where he is today. If a guy like Amare comes here, the most likely scenarios would be that he re-signs here, because he will make $25 million more than if does not. The question at that point becomes, is he signing and staying or going as part of a sign and trade.

The notion that we should not trade for a Boozer or a Bosh or a Stoudemire because they may wind up leaving us at that altar at some point is just ridiculous, in my opinion. You have a better chance of keeping a player here than you have of getting a player here.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 12, 2009 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

That is something I agree with

I just don’t think the Amare is the kind of risk this team should take is all. That’s why I’m so opposed to it. Amare does not equal Cwebb. It looks like on the surface like it is so, but I have a hard time believing it’s 2 plus 2. Maybe I’m just being neurotic. That’s always possible.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 12, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm fine

with the anti-Amare sentiment – you have at least a 50% chance of being right.

I’m not 100% sold on any of these deals, but none of that has to do with the fear of these guys walking at the end of their contract. Get the talent in house and then worry about.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 12, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs

Rec'd

For everything in that comment.

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Amen to both Otis and section

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 12, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Needless to say I don't agree

Your making two assumptions: 1) that we would be willing to pay more to keep him: 2) if we did a sign and trade we’d get back more than what we’re trading away to get him.

How long do you think it will take, playing on a losing team, before Amare starts to hate it here. If we continue to lose 50 to 60 games with Amare he can simply sign a 1yr deal to get out of here and get his big pay day the following year.

So either we lose him outright, or we do a sign & trade for expiring, young talent, and draft picks. Now, we’re worse off but it’s 2 yrs down the road, and we’re still rebuilding.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 12, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No risk, no reward

Your concerns and opinions are 100% valid – so was Chris Webber’s insistence that he wouldn’t come to Sacramento.

If you’re going to acquire Stoudemire and then do nothing else, then you will indeed lose him. My bet is that more pieces would be added/developed.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 12, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Even More Relevant...

Your concerns and opinions are 100% valid – so was Chris Webber’s insistence that he wouldn’t come to Sacramento.

So was his insistence that he wouldn’t re-sign when he became a Free Agent.

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's very defeatist

1) Why wouldn’t we be willing to pay more to keep him?
2) If we did a sign and trade, we at least wouldn’t be losing him for nothing.
3) If it was clear Amare was not interested in staying on, the Kings could still shop the guy before his contract expires.

Nobody’s denying there’s risk involved, but you seem to be of 100% certainty on the subject of Amare’s departure. That being the case, why bother signing or trading for any player of any above average talent? Considering they are just going to bolt at the first opportunity right?

Sorry, I just don’t get the idea of putting our eggs in the basket of the unknown – meaning draft picks that may or may not be successful NBA players. You look at a guy like Amare, and he actually has an impressive body of work in the league, and he’s only 26. That is much more of a sure thing IMO.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 12, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Question

If Amare leaves because the team is bad . . . then wouldn’t having Amare here attract another quality player, which could in-turn cause Amare to want to stay?

If the Kings get Amare and still find a way to get cap space this off-season . . . things could turn around much quicker than any of us hoped.

Plus, if Amare’s presence does attract another high quality player and he still bolts . . . that other player has to be considered a part of the return on the Amare Risk Experiment.

by smgmatt on Feb 12, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not against signing or trading for talent

I’m against giving up young talent and draft picks on a gamble. If we were in Portlands position (a playoff contender with a wining record), I’d say trade for Amare. But, we’re not, we’re not a contender and having Amare wont make us one next year. That means in 09/10 we’re going to have a losing season again.

Amare doesn’t have to do a sign and trade. Amare doesn’t have to resign with us. All he has to do is exercise his ETO after the 2010 trade deadline and then wait for the FA bidding wars to start in 2010/2011. I know we can pay more than anyone else. So, what! If he wants to get out of Sacramento and go to New York, Boston, LA, or any other big market, he’ll make more money in endorsements. Plus he can sign a 1 yr deal at Max, then resign after 1 yr and get as much money from them as we would have paid him.

And, for that 1 yr of having his glorious self here, we give up our youth and draft picks, and get nothing in return when he leaves. And, we’re 2 yrs further down the road and still in REBUILD. Remember, it’s not like signing a FA. He won’t be coming here willingly, so he doesn’t owe us anything.

It may not go down that way, but it could, and I don’t think it’s worth the gamble.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 12, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So what's the solution?

Unless you draft a superstar, the only way to acquire one is via trade or free agency. Based on your criteria, it appears that no free agent will want to sign with us and no trade acquisition’s going to hang around beyond his contract.

So you’re putting all your eggs in the basket of drafting?

How many years are we looking at for this team to become a playoff team, much less a contender under that philosophy?

And as good as Geoff is at drafting, there’s still only one or two guys every season (maybe) that make the leap to superstardom. Honestly, I think there’s more chance that Amare would come here, thrive and hang around for the long term than of us drafting the next Jordan, Wade, Paul, etc.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 13, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

wonderful post

rec’d for reality check.

Though I will throw Shawn Marion at you for

The worst team in the league, the worst defensive team in the league, a team with MLE players, one possible star, and 5 or more rookies and 1st yr players, is not going to be a contender for several (meaning 4 or 5 yrs). No quality player wants to be the best player on a bad team. If he is, he will be unhappy and will do everything possible to get off that team.

by betweentheeyes on Feb 12, 2009 12:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I get overwhelmed by too many comments

Too much of that left to right, top to bottom mess. No Amare! Please trust someone who has lived in the Valley of the Sun for 7 of 10 years. The kid is a mess. Stop it, just stop!

When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome again.
-Barney Stinson

by Red Reign on Feb 12, 2009 2:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs