New York Times -- The No-Stats All-Star
Article about Shane Battier - but includes tons of fascinating info about the game and how badly the box score reflects what really goes on on the court.
9 months ago
thelettere
33 comments
6 recs |
Comments
Incredible article
A long one, but worth the read. I look forward to the panel explaining it to me.
Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.
by andy sims on Feb 14, 2009 10:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Read it when it was linked in the last thread
Love it. Rec’ing this fanshot.
by Aykis16 on Feb 14, 2009 11:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I totally forgot about the fanshot option
So my apologies for the repeat. Just real excited – an article like this should be shouted from the rooftops.
by thelettere on Feb 14, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
OMG! That was absolute pleasure
REC’D – sorry I can only rec it once.
Of course it is written by the superstar Micheal Lewis great find. We could spend all day commenting on this – and maybe we should but briefly -
The virus that infected professional baseball in the 1990s, the use of statistics to find new and better ways to value players and strategies, has found its way into every major sport.
Is particularly ironic as we all know that the author’s MoneyBall brought the Jamesian statistics into the popular culture. Daryl Morey is known as the Billy Beane of Basketball because of Micheal Lewis’ wonerful book.
Anyhoo – I will also add now that this is a glaring example of Basketball IQ – I see Jason Kidd (not current version) as the offensive version of Shane Battiers’ defense, but offense collects statistics as was one of the major points of this article. So - given all of these smart players -— are the Sacramento Kings morons?
by betweentheeyes on Feb 14, 2009 11:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
dammit I need to go to posting school
This should have been quote blocked
The virus that infected professional baseball in the 1990s, the use of statistics to find new and better ways to value players and strategies, has found its way into every major sport.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 14, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great
There is a lot written about the NBA and very, very little of it is as good as that article. Great, great stuff.
Shut up and Coach
by Carl on Feb 14, 2009 11:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Loved the article
But I don’t really think it’s quiiite as groundbreaking as it seems at first blush. Everyone who pays attention to the NBA knows that Shane Battier is a terrific defender, good-character and “glue” guy. I don’t think that’s particularly earth-shattering. Yeah, you can come up with stats to prove that and spot other possible glue guys, and it’s particularly interesting how they’re using stats to influence how to coach someone to defend and come up with new approaches to the game.
But the big picture stuff: not too earth shattering. Everyone knows that you need Doug Christies and James Poseys and Robert Horrys who don’t put up great stats but who make the team better with the little things.
by nbrans on Feb 14, 2009 11:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Oversimplification
The analysis of “glue guys” and basketball IQ generally starts and ends at identifying certain players that have those traits. If the article merely identified Battier as a glue guy, as most basketball writing does, I would agree with you. This article went into measurable and specific game-to-game examples of how and why a glue guy makes his team better. The article also makes a deep and compelling argument about the role basketball IQ plays in the NBA game. What made it great was the rare depth and specificity used to talk about a topic that is usually treated as superficial and unimportant.
Shut up and Coach
by Carl on Feb 14, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, and like I said I loved the article
The specificity and stats and explanation are all awesome.
What I’m saying though is that in the big picture I think teams know how important basketball IQ and glue guys are. The tried-and-true model of winning an NBA championship is to get two stars and surround them with glue-guy roleplayers, and everyone tries to do that. Houston has Yao now and when Battier made the playoffs with Memphis they had Pau and Mike Miller. You’re not winning 50 games with Battier as your best player (and let’s not forget that the first two years of Battier/Pau won 23 and 28 games), but as a glue guy he can definitely win games. He also leaves out that the year before Battier arrived and Houston only won 34 games, BOTH Yao and McGrady missed half the season.
It’s great that they’re coming up with metrics for Battier’s impact, but what I’m saying is that in the big picture this article didn’t tell me a whole lot about Shane Battier that I (and you) didn’t already know.
by nbrans on Feb 14, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Maybe we’re just on opposite sides of a 51-49 feeling about the article. I liked it not so much because of what it said about Battier as an individual, but because of the fresh and insightful look at a topic no NBA writer ever actually covers in any depth. I saw Battier as Best Supporting Actor in a great article about basketball IQ and glue guys, not Best Actor in a decent article about Shane Battier.
How’s that for a mixed metaphor? Heh!
Shut up and Coach
by Carl on Feb 14, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Most teams are trying to get players with the best stats and then throw them together.
Just as many teams have 3 stars as those who have 2 – and would likely try for 5 stars if it didn’t put them over the cap. Traditional stats still rule the game and I have never come across a more thorough or convincing article that demonstrably argues that this is BS.
Smart Role player get “token” praise, but the true judge of how a player is valued is in how much they are paid. Houston was able to get Battier cheap because most GM haven’t the slightest clue what this article speaks of.
by thelettere on Feb 14, 2009 1:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
For the sake of comparison
Battier make virtually the same salary as Beno and Mikki. Now THAT is sad.
by thelettere on Feb 14, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Houston didn't get him cheap
They gave up the #7 pick in the draft, which was Rudy Gay. I’d say that’s pretty steep actually.
by nbrans on Feb 14, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's really intertesting
Is that Morey picked up another similar player last summer whose previous team undervalued him, dumped him for relative scraps just to get him off the team, returned eight of its leading nine scorers – all but him – and has seen its win percent fall almost 30% to be the worst team in the league.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 14, 2009 1:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If only Ron-Ron
actually remembered he was a glue guy, he’d be the best one in the league no question.
Unfortunately, he thinks he’s Kobe or LeBron, not the best Shane Battier in the world.
by ForThree on Feb 14, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
nice response ForThree
rec’d, especially the
Unfortunately, he thinks he’s Kobe or LeBron, not the best Shane Battier in the world.
by betweentheeyes on Feb 14, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rockets last season (pre-Ron)
Won 67% of their games.
This season with Ron? Won 60% of their games.
Maybe Ron-Ron is just another “best player on a bad team” guy – and not so great when he’s surrounded by better talent.
Mambo King
by otis29 on Feb 14, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Yao's fault
only played 55 games last season, 50 games so far this season. Yao’s presence obviously hurts that team.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Feb 14, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
It’s too early to tell. My point was that Morey zeroed in on him and that he obviously sees something the Kings missed.
Battier, Ming, Artest, McGrady and Alston have all missed action due to injuries, so their record is pretty decent when you take that into consideration.
Their regular-season record last year didn’t help them much in the playoffs. They aren’t playing that great now, but let’s see how they close and what they do when it counts.
And, just to clarify, Ron was the best player on a so-so team last year. We didn’t get to be truly bad until this year, and his absence is the only major difference in the composition of the squad this year. Naturally we aren’t missing him much.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 14, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or
Morey missed something the Kings saw. This sort of scientific management has its own weaknesses.
Still, you’re right that the Rockets have the ability to be a very good team if they can get healthy and stay that way.
It’s also worth noting that Artest trade rumors have already begun in Houston.
by furious.d on Feb 14, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And the implications of divisiveness in the locker room
From none other than Coach Adelman himself. Hmmm…I didn’t hear about a lot of locker room issues last season with the Rockets.
Mambo King
by otis29 on Feb 15, 2009 8:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
brilliant article
do we take the sort of baseline 3s that smart teams take?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Feb 14, 2009 1:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was thinking:
we seem to take the hardest 3’s on the floor, the ones right before the arc gets shorter. Think BJax. Garcia. KMart.
Also the boxing out: Battier makes his best rebounders better because he knows how to box out and then moves to box out the other teams best rebounder. Thus Yao gets more rebounds. I was saying something like this about Hawes and Thompson when TZ was wondering why we got killed on the boards by (Houston?). I didn’t watch that game, but I said that both Shock and Hawes are probably better rebounders when playing with either of our respective vets… the vets box out better.
If yr not happy with the results, lower yr expectations.
by tokyo on Feb 14, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Point for discussion: of the current top 4 true contenders who is glue?
Lakers: Derek Fisher (glue wannabes – Ariza (not yet young fella) and Walton (just isn’t)
Celtics: Rajon Rondo, and maybe Leon Powe?
Cavs: just rename them the LeBrons – the rest of team are supporters not glue
Spurs: I want to say Duncan or Popovich. So many choices they are a glue team. I will go with Ginobili.
You could argue Kevin Garnett for the Celtics because he grinds the horses to glue. Can you see Kendrick Perkins without KG’s influence?
by betweentheeyes on Feb 14, 2009 2:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wish someone other than Michael Lewis had written this
But, whatever.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 14, 2009 2:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
what I would love to know is...
how does Battier feel about Artest? Knucklehead? Genius?
and to take it one step further…
…I get the feeling that Battier’s best chapters of his career (if not in politics) will be in coaching or GMing…
…can we position ourselves to hire him…?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Feb 14, 2009 4:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Great read, thanks team
As someone stated above, if you’re here you probably care enough about the NBA to know that Battier is a terrific defender and intangibles guy (even if we’re not sure how, though the article has plenty to say on that). What I found really interesting was the attitude that Battier’s quotes conveyed and the way that the people who studied him spoke about his temperament.
The author (or was it Wetzel?) calls him shrewd, but he comes off as outright cynical to me, defiantly so. The way that Lewis characterized his detachment from his peers and the emotional aspect of sport is almost unsettling. Battier seems smart, but even more he seems to be nurturing a chip on his shoulder.
That got me to thinking about all of the great defenders who could be characterized as defiant. Obviously – despite the accepted truisms that wins are the only statistics that matter and that defense wins championships – pro sports are pervertedly skewed toward rewarding offensive production. So it seems natural that players with an affinity for defense (whether as the result of intelligence, quality coaching, or natural gifts) should develop a defiant persuasion in response to the hypocritical pattern. Yes, great offensive players can also seem defiant (Kobe, LeBron) but it’s more posturing, less genuine and there’s more joy in it.
And this defiance seems to manifest itself differently with different personalities. Battier is cynically defiant, Garnett is proudly defiant, Bowen is underhandedly defiant, Rodman was irreverently defiant, etc. I’m sure there are plenty of exceptions to this apparent pattern, but it’s noteworthy nonetheless.
I wonder if this is a recent development resulting from the increased focus on and rewarding of star scorers in the NBA, or something inherent to the psychological makeup of great defenders. Since I don’t know much about basketball prior to the mid-eighties, I’ll ask the more (*ahem) age-advanced contributors here: Would you say that a significant portion of the great defenders of generations past (KC Jones, Bill Russell, Dave DeBusschere, etc.) had this defiant streak in them?
by furious.d on Feb 14, 2009 10:58 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
first off - intelligently written Furious
rec’d.
I am old enough AARP qualified mature enough to respond with an opinion. Bill Russell was always defiant. He contended with the ultimate offensive weapon (the Big Dipper aka Wilt Chamberlain) and the civil rights era. His current closeness with Kevin Garnett is fitting as they share “proudly defiant” and have infectious intensity. Russell was masterful-ly defiant.
IMO KC Jones and Dave Debuschere were more workman and cog pieces in the concept of “Team” than defiant. The other defensive stars of their day – Bobby Jones (76ers), Nate Thurmond (Warriors), Stacey Augmon (Hawks), Sidney Moncrief (Bucks), Walt Frazier (Knicks) were not truly defiant because sports were more “pure” and less about entertainment (sorry SportsCenter) than today. Back then only the Superstars could wear defiance (Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul Jabbar – EgoCentric Defiant) Defiance became more a part of the NBA in the mid-80s as it became more acceptable. I find Shane Battiers’ attitude fitting as he is a team player in a sport that has become, at times, more show than substance.
I would add that Tim Duncan is aloofly defiant, Ben Wallace (DPoY versions) machoman defiant, Alonzo Mourning show-off defiant Doug Christie me and Jackie against the world defiant, , and AC Green celibately driven defiant
by betweentheeyes on Feb 15, 2009 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
celibacy
is the ultimate form of defiance. :)
Thanks for the insight BTE. The more I learn about Russell, the more interesting a figure he seems to me.
I think the description “workman” would also apply to Battier, but instead of physical effort his specialty is mental preparation. It’s almost as if the NBA mirrors American society. Just as the NBA doesn’t reward workmen in a way that matches their contribution, American society doesn’t value physical labor the way that it did in the post-WWII era.
If KC Jones and Dave DeBusschere were workmen, then Bill Russell was the foreman, Shane Battier is an engineer, Michael Jordan is the CEO, Vince Carter is your knucklehead VP who’s just someone important’s son-in-law, and Kyle Korver is in marketing.
by furious.d on Feb 15, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
too funny
good stuff – and yes, rec’d
by betweentheeyes on Feb 15, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

















