Cisco, the 2005 Draft and a Sunday Hodgepodge
Francisco Garcia is a paradox. We remember fondly his game-winning threes and his tough defense and savvy play at times while trying to forget some of the bonehead plays and pedestrian efforts he has also offered up with regularity. Excuses abound: he’s banged up, the team sucks, etc.
Some see him as a piece of our future. Others wouldn’t hesitate to move him, except that his recent contract extension doesn’t make it easy or desirable or possible to trade him until July 2010, as Pookey has explained here and here and here.
Which brings me to the 2005 draft. In Geoff Petrie, Draft Guru, we discussed some of the past drafts since Petrie took over. I said I would go back at some point and analyze draft by draft to see how Petrie did, using career win shares as the measuring stick. Naturally you could use other criteria, but let’s take a look at how it works in this case:
Of the 60 players taken in the 2005 draft, 36 are playing in the NBA this year. I may have missed a scrub or two, and naturally there are foreigners on the list like Fran Vasquez who haven’t showed up to play here or have played a bit and then been placed with a foreign club to get additional seasoning.
Anyway, here’s the ranking of players from that draft, listed with rank, name, win shares and original draft position:
1. Chris Paul, 46.2, drafted 4th.
2. Deron Williams, 25.7, 3rd.
3. Danny Granger, 25.2, 17th.
4. David Lee, 23.1, 30th.
5. Andrew Bogut, 17.2, 1st.
6. Marvin Williams, 15.7, 2nd.
7. Andrew Bynum, 14.6, 10th.
8. Monta Ellis, 14.0, 40th.
9. Ryan Gomes, 13.9, 50th.
10. Luther Head, 12.7, 24th.
11. Linas Kleiza, 12.1, 27th.
12. Charley Villanueva, 11.5, 7th.
13. Nate Robinson, 11.4, 21st.
14. Raymond Felton, 10.6, 5th.
15. Hakim Warrick, 10.6,19th.
16. Jarrett Jack, 10.1, 22nd.
17. Rony Turiaf, 10.1, 37th.
18. Jason Maxiell, 9.6, 26th.
19. FRANCISCO GARCIA, 9.4, 23rd.
20. Channing Frye, 7.8, 8th.
21. Louis Williams, 7.1, 45th.
22. Joey Graham, 6.5, 16th.
23. Brandon Bass, 6.4, 33rd.
24. Amir Johnson, 5.5, 56th.
25. Martell Webster, 5.4, 6th.
26. Ike Diogu, 5.1, 9th.
27. Travis Diener, 4.9, 38th.
28. Andray Blatche, 4.6, 49th.
29. C.J. Miles, 3.9, 34th.
30. Johan Petro, 3.1, 25th.
31. Rashad McCants, 2.9, 14th.
32. Sean May, 2.5, 13th.
33. Antoine Wright, 2.2, 15th.
34. Gerald Green, 1.7, 18th.
35. Marcin Gortat, 1.5, 57th.
36. Von Wafer, 0.6, 39th.
So Cisco ranks in the middle of the pack, the 19th best player chosen with the 23rd pick. So I guess Petrie gets a passing grade in that year. His pick has performed slightly above the position from where he was chosen. Based on that previous draft thread, some here might be easier to please and will consider it a victory that he is not a total bust.
One thing about this list based on a cold, calculating number is that it shows us how easy it is to fall in love with a guy because he’s “our guy” while undervaluing the guys with similar or better numbers toiling in other cities. Exhibit G captured this tendency well recently in This Is How You Remind Me.
Every year we over-analyze. Around here, we step it up a notch and over-analyze on a daily basis. Through this abundance of regurgitated information and micro-analysis of every tiny detail, we overvalue some players and undervalue others. This is natural. And I think that, to an extent, it gets worse the more you follow a player. Case in point: Jason Thompson.Quick sidenote: I am a huge fan of JT. But he is a classic example of how we may overvalue a guy based on watching him every day. We imagine what could be. We see that magical potential. Nothing has ruined more drafts that the idea of potential. That moment when you suddenly forget that the forest is made up of the individual, proverbial trees. Suddenly we're vehemently opposed to including a rookie in a deal for a proven all-star.
Stats are stats, and you can certainly make a case if you want that Cisco is better than some of the guys ranked above him. After all, he’s our guy.
At the same time, you can also make the case that there are guys ranked below him who you’d consider dealing Cisco for even up if money and trade restrictions weren’t factors. Guys like Brandon Bass, for instance. Gortat, near the very bottom of the list, backs up Dwight Howard and has some fans who see him as a great prospect if he could get playing time on another team.
Let’s not fall in love with our guys as we rebuild, and let’s not be unrealistic as we propose trades. It takes two to tango, and we have to give up value to get value, or the other teams are simply going to move on to the next prospective suitor.
We have some compelling assets. Let’s take a look at any deal put on the table and be cold and calcuating and see if we think it adds up to a better Kings team in the future, whether or not it includes our favorites wearing another jersey.
I will wrap up this Sunday hodgepodge by quoting from the Michael Lewis article that has drawn so much interest this weekend:
When Morey came to the Rockets, a huge chunk of the team’s allotted payroll — the N.B.A. caps payrolls and taxes teams that exceed them — was committed, for many years to come, to two superstars: Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming. Morey had to find ways to improve the Rockets without spending money. “We couldn’t afford another superstar,” he says, “so we went looking for nonsuperstars that we thought were undervalued.” He went looking, essentially, for underpaid players. “That’s the scarce resource in the N.B.A.,” he says. “Not the superstar but the undervalued player.”
If there is any blemish on the Petrie record that has allowed the team to sink to its current depths, it is his signing of mediocre players like Mikki Moore, Francisco Garcia and Beno Udrih to MLE contracts.
While other GMs are concentrating on freeing up money to pay for the necessary superstars by looking for value to fill out the roster, it seems Petrie has avoided adding superstars and instead has overpaid for what would be roster filler on other squads but ends up starting for ours. Let’s hope we’ve seen the last of that.
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
4 recs |
45 comments
Comments
Ineteresting stuff
That draft seems strange because it had so many apparent busts. Of the top 19 guys, 9 of them were drafted 22nd or worse.
Or to put it another way, when GP drafted 23rd there were 6 better choices on the board at the time. Of all the remaining players at that time GP picked the 7th best one, as coolcat says, not bad but not a ringing endorsement.
That draft was total crapshoot though it seems because by the 23rd pick 14 of the teams picking ahead of Petrie had done worse than their slot said they should have. Basically, a bunch of teams made bad choices that year early, so when Petrie picked there were six guys better than Cisco on the board when Cisco was picked.
by ForThree on Feb 15, 2009 3:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
But Petrie managed to get one of those good guys
That is a good endorsement. The guy knows talent. He’s probably the best drafting GM. Trading and signing he’s not as good at. He’s an above average trader, and a weak signer in my opinion. He’s only had one or two big signing achievements. Lately they’ve all sucked. A few of the ones I really liked were in the past: Vlade Divac, Bobby Jackson.
Overall I would rank Petrie in the top 5 of GM’s in this league of 30 teams, closer to 5 than 1. San Antonio Spurs GMs (Buford, and previously Poppovich, who still has input) I would rank first. They manage to find gold in a lot of places. Tony Parker, last in the first round, Manu Ginobili, Roger Mason. All great pieces around Duncan.
by Aykis16 on Feb 15, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Based on what? career win shares, what does that even mean?
And, how is it a good way to evaluate the value of a draft pick?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Feb 15, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Career Win Shares
Read Assessing the Relative Value of Draft Position in the NBA Draft. In it the author offers this explanation: “Player Wins and Win Shares, as reported by ”basketball-reference.com" >basketball-reference.com, are both cumulative statistics that estimate how many wins (or shares of a win) are attributable to a player over the course of a season.
In other words, it’’s one way to measure a player’s value. And since members of the same draft have played the same number of years, it’s a good way to size up peers from the same draft class.
Is it a valid way? Consider that the active leaders in Career Win Shares are:
1. Shaquille O’Neal 174.76
2. Kevin Garnett 157.59
3. Tim Duncan 146.24
4. Kobe Bryant 134.49
5. Dirk Nowitzki 134.26
Here are the single-season leaders:
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 12.29
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.31
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 15.91
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.18
2004-05 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 15.90
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.10
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 16.48
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.68
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O’Neal 15.02
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O’Neal 18.70
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone 9.41
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 16.15
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan 18.27
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan 20.27
1994-95 NBA David Robinson 17.78
1993-94 NBA David Robinson 18.94
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan 16.48
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan 17.31
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan 19.84
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan 18.68
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan 19.08
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan 20.35
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan 16.05
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.59
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 15.11
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.04
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 14.86
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.98
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.40
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.91
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.45
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.32
ABA Julius Erving* 17.54
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 18.31
ABA Julius Erving* 17.62
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.00
ABA Julius Erving* 16.87
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 15, 2009 11:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Too much information
The article “Relative Value of Draft Position”, doesn’t really explain ‘win shares’. It only explains how the author used Pers, Win Shares & other data to assign value to each Draft position. So, that if a draft choice were used in a trade, the value ot that pick could be compared to any other pick, with a quantifiable value.
The reference glossary does explain Win Shares. And although, I don’t completely understand the math, his explaination that the total Win Shares of all the players on each team had a 5% margin of error when compared with the teams actual wins, makes the numbers appear to be valid.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Feb 16, 2009 2:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Win Shares are great when dealing with Stars
When not dealing with stars, and role players, they’re really not. Does anybody around here think Garcia is not a role player, albeit a potentially very valuable one?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's your reasoning on it not being valueable for role players?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Feb 16, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I'm going to ignore Shane Battier (whose WS are high with 52.1)
I’m just going to use, oh about 10 role players Win Shares over their career, and I’m going to pick them at random.
Nick Collison, Erick Dampier, Nate Robinson, Matt Barnes, Derek Fisher, Mehmet Okur, Tayshaun Prince, Kendrick Perkins, Udonis Haslem, Hedo Turkoglu
Collison: Total WS: 18.8 for his career
Dampier: Ws for his career: 44.7. Keep in mind he’s been playing since 1996, and after his first 5 years, he was worth less than 6 WS.
Robinson: 11.4 WS
Barnes: 9.8 WS
Fisher: WS 49 for his career (And I think Fisher is an incredible role player—yet, with regards to Win Shares, it’s just so hard to calculate that players value to winning with just their stats alone.)
Okur: 45.9 WS
Prince: 42.9 WS (This really shocks the shit outta me. But to be honest, it shouldn’t. I figured Prince’s WS’s woulda have been higher.)
Perkins: 14.3 WS
Haslem: 32.4 WS
Turkoglu: 47.3 WS
Now, would anybody here rank Prince as a player below Turkoglu? Honestly? What about Turkoglu below Dampier? Would you rate Collison above or below Nate Robinson? Is Udonis Haslem less valuable than Mehmet Okur? Win Shares are a function of producing statistics and correlating them to how a team wins. If you look at the greatest stars in this league, they also produce eye popping stats, and the highest Win Shares. Role players don’t. That’s why I think the whole idea of Win Shares don’t work in this exercise.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't compare win share for career unless you adj. for # of years played.
You can compare for the 4 yrs of their rookie contract, but you can’t compare a guy who has played for 10 yrs to a player who has played 4 yrs. Your using career totals. so divide the totals by the years played and then you can compare.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Feb 16, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't want to do that
The career totals show that. Prince & Okur have been in the league the same amount of time. Yet their WS’s aren’t identical, yet despite role players. And the team’s Prince has played on have won a lot more games. That was the point. It correlates to stats. Apparently you don’t think so.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What might be more useful
is to use the list above (2005 draft players) and point out where you think it fails. Or suggest another stat or combo of stats you think are better if there is such an animal.
I used that one because it’s mentioned by Mr. B as relevant and it seems to do a decent job of rating the players, although there will always be exceptions.
More specifically, for rating Petrie’s draft ability, I think it is a good stat because even its failings should even out over time.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 16, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What might be useful is if you read the conversation and how it developed
And recognize it had nothing to do with your original thread. Of course, being a stupid asshole is nothing for you. It’s just an everyday thing right CC? And how the fuck is win shares going to rate Francisco Garcia in the 4th year of his career? Especially when every team he’s been on has been mediocre or worse wins wise every year?
If you’re weren’t so stupid, your basketball knowledge would be offensive.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Turn the other cheek
and just consider the source …
You turn nasty when you’re losing. Too bad. Let’s stick to the debate and leave your (lack of) intelligence out of it.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 16, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right good advice
Ignoring you is always a good idea.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, pookey, that's not cool
Sometimes in the past, coolcat has seemed annoying to me. I’m sure we all seem annoying to each other at times. But this was a well-written and well thought-out post. Nothing he wrote deserved your response.
I hope I don’t come off as a jerk, it’s just that I respect how you write and I don’t want to see you getting too caught up in this kind of pettiness.
by twasserm on Feb 18, 2009 6:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Had nothing to do with his original post
It had to do with this particular string of comments.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 6:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 16, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't make a difference
The point is the same, and all it does is change the total number of stats. The point was that it was a deviation. Which of course, is not something you recognize cuz youre stupid and arrogant to admit you could ever be caught in a contradiction you stupid fuck.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another useful comment
16,600
16,601
16,602 …
Drone on.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 16, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All our times have come
Here but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the reaper
Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain
We can be like they are
Come on baby… don’t fear the reaper
Baby take my hand… don’t fear the reaper
We’ll be able to fly… don’t fear the reaper
Baby i’m your man…
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Romeo and juliet
Are together in eternity…
Romeo and juliet
40,000 men and women everyday… like romeo and juliet
40,000 men and women everyday… redefine happiness
Another 40,000 coming everyday…we can be like they are
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
When people complain that an average player got a mid-level exception salary. Mid-level ! In the mddle… average. An average guy got an average salary…he must be over paid? Salmons is an above average player, Garcia average…I will agree Moore and Udrih are both well below averaqe and they were mistakes. So Petrie has been slightly below the norm in signing mid-levels. Imagine if we signed none of those 4…right now we would still be at cap and have 4 NBDLers replacing them. Geoff idn’t look good last time we were over cap and needing to build, but turn it around he did. Give him time, if he screws up once we’re under cap then everybody can resume whining.
by ElRonToro on Feb 15, 2009 9:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
4 NBDLers
don’t make $24 million a year. But two legitimate stars or one superstar and 2-3 “value” guys could.
The average PER is set at 15. Cisco has a lifetime PER of 13.0, the same as Beno, slightly better than than Mikki’s 12.8 and Salmons’ 12.5. Mikki’s play has fallen in recent years to much lower levels, while Salmons is having a career year at 16.2.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 15, 2009 10:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting idea
I’m not really sure win shares is the right way to evaluate this whole thing though. Rajon Rondo remains the best player, who would have helped the Kings, whom Petrie did not take.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 10:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Arguably, though...
The Rondo who is playing for the Celtics now could be a far different Rondo than the one playing for the theoretical 2009 Sacramento Kings. The psychology he has in Boston is cemented because there is a very clear power structure within that team. He is a one dimensional player he has been since High School in Louisville: He’s crazy athletic, he’s got great vision, but he’s not the guy you want taking 15/20 shots a night unless they are coming on layups. Kevin, Paul and Ray need space and service. This, he provides with aplomb, with his dribble penetration and passing. He has done one thing very well, providing the glue that holds 3 superstars + 1 random guy who can rebound/is tough together.
I don’t think the same could be said of a Rondo playing for the Kings. He would be feeling pressure, like a couple of the our best players have all season, to do things he’s not comfortable doing. He could be entertaining ideas of being a star, not a role player. His mentor (instead of Ray Allen and KG) would be who, exactly? B-Jax? Brad Miller? Not to mention, he would be failing significantly more often, even at things he is good at, because the teammates he had around him would be the 2009 Sacramento Kings, not the 2009 Boston Celtics.
In short, his poor shooting ability would have been exposed, teams would be able to key on him, his confidence would be as low as it is for our players right now, and he would conform to the mean expectations of the players around him, which aren’t all that high. Don’t get me wrong, overall I really like Rondo, he’s a Louisville boy, just like me, and I’m proud that he’s gotten the success he has, but I think there’s ample evidence to support the idea that he would definitely not be the player he is right now if he was not playing for the Boston Celtics.
by bartenpa on Feb 16, 2009 8:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
nice argument
see also: Perkins, Kendrick
by betweentheeyes on Feb 16, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And this is why Win shares are no good...
Average players get a bonus for being on a good team. I will never be in favor of them in any application.
by chri5 on Feb 16, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right
Just for funzies I compared Rondo with three other point guards with similar PERs:
- Rondo, PER of 18.9 = 6.9 Win Shares.
- Jose Calderon, PER of 19.4 = 4.7 Win Shares.
- Andre Miller, PER of 18.5 = 5.8 Win Shares.
- Chauncey Billups, PER of 19.7 = 6.8 Win Shares.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 16, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So, are the PER's #'s wrong or the Win Shares?
Or, is the whole idea that you can statically rate player wrong. Will a team & it’s players have better #’s if they play in a weak conference in a weak division, because they should perform better against weaker opponents more often than a team in a strong division. How do you take garbage time out of the equation? How do you correct for a player playing injured, or having to play with reserves because your star is injured. Or, how do you account for players having a game after a night on South Beach.
Obviously, there must be some relevance to the numbers. It’s just the margin of error that’s in question. Basketball is fluid. Players switch off on assignments, teams play zone, & players doubleteam other players. So, how can you rate a persons defensive +/- if you can’t tell who’s responsible for guarding whom?
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Feb 17, 2009 1:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All very good questions
that I for one am totally unable to answer. :)
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 17, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why I'm so skeptical of all these # systems
I just don’t know if basketball is a very good sport to accurately quantify no matter how you shuffle the numbers.
Not saying they’re worthless – just subject to too many of the factors HT points out and more.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 18, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that
I hate stats that you can’t see happening in real time.
“Nice play, his PER should get a nice.03 boost from that!”
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Feb 18, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What are some of those stats?
And how do you use them to evaluate players?
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2009 12:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose
but I’ll be much more interested when Cisco doesn’t have to come in and pretend to be the ‘enforcer’, the tough guy.
He is ‘a’ tough guy, but his body won’t hold up to what he’s being asked to do, be the teams main enforcer.
Back in his role things will change.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 16, 2009 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
Are you mistaking “energy guy” with “enforcer”?
Not one time have I ever seen Francisco as an enforcer on the court for the team.
Mambo King
by otis29 on Feb 16, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Francisco

The Enforcer

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Feb 16, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am probably the last person on the planet
to see Gran Torino last weekend, but if you haven’t, for what little its worth, I thought it was great.
by ForThree on Feb 16, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't watch Clint Eastwood movies
I’m still working on watching Burt Lancaster movies.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Feb 16, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's been trying to come in and make the hard foul
get in a face or two.
Be the attitude guy.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 16, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And you think the team is asking him to go outside his role
To do this? You might just be extrapolating Cisco’s intensity out a bit too far.
Mambo King
by otis29 on Feb 16, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Francisco would rather be a positive energy guy
But there is a need for intensity, psychologically, within the team. Cisco is trying to provide intensity, toughness, and leadership, but it’s hard for him to do when he’s not the go-to guy for the team, when he’s not respected as a team leader.
Digression:
I tend to watch Cisco during games, because I’m also a U of L fan, and I’ve noticed a consistent phenomenon with him. Consistently, he makes the extra effort to get into position to be ready for the extra pass, to be open for the high percentage shot, only for someone to take a one on one, drive to the basket and chuck one up.
After they take it, especially when it’s a quick miss with a quick outlet, Cisco lets his shoulders drop, his head drop, and it takes him a little bit longer to get back on defense. This is something that I never saw happen to him at Louisville. In my honest opinion, I think he’s being completely smothered by the lack of offensive system that the Kings have. If you ask me to point a finger, I will point it at two people: Reggie, who did not have a system, and John Salmons, who I think is a talented player who is the ultimate “anti-Battier”.
by bartenpa on Feb 16, 2009 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the observation
Although I haven’t seen it, I can imagine how that could bring down a player who’s trying to help this team. I like Francisco a lot and I truly believe that he would do really good in a system like the Princeton. No wonder he was the one that came out and expressed his satisfaction with coachie designing the offense.
"Let's stop arguing and get together and agree on who really is the problem: PEACHES" - HighTops
by eduardo_m7 on Feb 16, 2009 9:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Its been a tough season
no one with Cisco’s pride wants to be a part of it.
He’ll be so very much better when there’s some light at the end of the tunnel.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 16, 2009 11:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And the answer is yes Otis
I think he’s trying too hard to do more than he’s really physically capable of
desperation is the by-word…..
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 17, 2009 12:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
In addition to Francisco, ranked 19th on the list, we’ve just added No. 26 Ike Diogu and No. 31 Rashad McCants, both drafted ahead of Cisco but relegated to sniffing his tailpipe on this team.
We also got our butts handed to us tonight by No. 23 on the list, Brandon Bass.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 22, 2009 12:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

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