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Why Trading John Salmons is OK

There has been some burgeoning sentiment that it'd be criminal to trade John Salmons for expiring contracts and a non-lottery first-round pick. Despite this, it seems rather apparent that John Salmons will in fact be traded for expiring contracts and a non-lottery first-round pick.

The most common argument would seem to be that Salmons is the team's second-best player, best perimeter defender, best dollar-for-dollar value, still young enough to matter in 2012, and that there is no replacement for him at the small forward.

To all of which I say, "Bullocks."

***

Salmons is having the best season of his career by far. He's been much better than we had right to expect, even though he is now in the throes of his prime. (He turned 29 in December.) And he is a good deal at $5 million. He makes less than Beno Udrih, Mikki Moore, Kenny Thomas, Brad Miller and Kevin Martin; Salmons has produced more than four of those fellows. Next season, Francisco Garcia will be paid more than Salmons; we'd expect Salmons to produce roughly the same or better than Garcia. He's a good value.

Now, at Salmons' absolute peak to date, he is averaging 17.6 points per 36 minutes. Among the 221 players who have played 800 minutes this season, Salmons ranks #57 in points per 36 minutes. This is OK, but not particularly good. (By comparison, Martin is #8.) Salmons is not an exceptional scorer.

Basketball-Reference classifies Salmons as a guard, since for the majority of his career he has played point guard and shooting guard. In Sacramento, he plays small forward. Typically, you expect more rebounding from your small forwards than your two-guards. But never mind that. Let's compare Salmons (a small forward for Sacramento so long as he is here) with all the guards who have played 800 minutes in the NBA. Thirty-six of them rebound better. Mike Conley, Luke Ridnour, Nate Robinson, Marquis Daniels -- all better per-opportunity rebounders. If Salmons played a guard position for the Kings, he'd only be considered average among all guards. As a small forward, he is a rebounding disaster. This is not his fault. But he should not be a small forward on a team without a elite rebounding frontcourt or two-guard. (No one on the Kings can be called an elite rebounder, though Jason Thompson is very good at the power forward position.)

We think of John Salmons as a great passer, a player who makes his teammates better with his playmaking abilities. Beno Udrih and Brad Miller both have higher assist rates. Salmons is not much better than Willie Green in this regard, actually. Assists are weird, and I feel weird arguing either way about Salmons' playmaking abilities. But I feel that this info should be mentioned. Salmons is not a point forward.

If you would argue keeping any person in this starting lineup because of their defense, you are on drugs. (But hey, we are all on drugs, right?)

This analysis is not meant to demean Salmons. I like him, he is a good dude and a fine player. But he's not nearly as good as some of us believe.

***

Salmons' value has never been higher. A not-old producer without baggage, with versatility, on a low-price contract, locked up for at least another year (and possible two). Two years ago, pundits ridiculed the signing of Salmons. He has turned it around, and he's highly desirable to a vast swath of teams.

Once upon a time, the same could be said of Mike Bibby. In 2005, the Kings could have gotten a lot more than cap space and a bust for Bibby. But the Kings didn't see a need or reason to trade Bibby in 2005. He stayed until 2008, his value destroyed and his price obliterated. The Kings ended up with almost nothing because they waited too long to trade Bibby, until his value to the league at-large became so minor and muted that it would have been just as well if Bibby ceased to exist beginning in, say, 2006.

When the Kings finally trade Bibby last February, he was about to turn 29. Salmons just turned 29. Bibby had bottomed out, while Salmons has peaked.

At some point, you need to make a move before it's too late. Geoff Petrie was able to do this with Chris Webber, Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, and (arguably) Peja Stojakovic. He did not accomplish perfect timing with Ron Artest (though that's arguable), Bibby, Hedo Turkoglu (too early), or Brad Miller. Is it too early to trade Salmons?

Let's assume the Kings don't contend for a title next season. Thus, the value of Salmons the player cannot be terribly great, since it would be unlikely for the Kings to re-sign a 30-year-old Salmons long-term in 2010. Will the Kings be able to get more for Salmons next February, or this June? Is the risk that Salmons gets injured or begins to decline worth any potential increase in the return package?

No, no. This time, the time is right. Adios, my friend.

1 recs  |  Comment 35 comments |

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I have no problem

With letting John go without getting a lottery pick but just picking up Portland’s 2010 second round pick for instance would be worthless. Now if it’s the 2009 or 2010 first rounder for Portland then that’s worth it. You could always trade Salmons later when you know what you want to pick up. I don’t understand what the rush is to get rid of Salmons. How about getting rid of Miller, Moore or Thomas first. Even Douby and Shelden should be moved first. You can always trade Salmons since he has good value.

Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)

by dalt99 on Feb 18, 2009 8:44 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that

You pick up a 1st rounder and a small expiring contract for John. That definitely works.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I'll doubt they will do that

But then again, why not?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I refuse to listen to logic

and reserve the right to pout and whine when a deal for expiring goes through. Which it probably will.

by Aykis16 on Feb 18, 2009 8:44 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Also, if we end up with the worst record

We’ll have the first second rounder too. That’s almost like a first round pick. We could have basically 4 first round picks this year.

by Aykis16 on Feb 18, 2009 8:45 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm wary of that too

In a Salmons deal with Portland, I’d rather have the 2010 pick, than the 2009 pick. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to have that many 1st rounders all in one season, especially if the draft doesn’t have that much talent in it. It’s going to be harder to pluck a steal in this draft, let alone build your future around having 4 picks in a draft before the 31st pick.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Important point
Salmons’ value has never been higher.

And probably won’t get any higher.

P.S. You left out the fact that he’s a headcase in waiting. Otherwise, great post.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 18, 2009 8:47 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

And

Our beloved franchise can probably win 15 games without Salmons…

OK, maybe just 14.

Beware certitude.

by Reges on Feb 18, 2009 8:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like Salmons

but he’s not part of our future and a big part of me wants to see Petrie do right by him and send him to a team that’ll compete in the playoffs.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 18, 2009 8:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Agree 100%

You don’t hang on to 29 year olds with replacements already inked to long term deals, when you are in the middle of starting trying to manage a rebuild. You especailly don’t wait if the goal is to get cap space THIS summer.

That said, where does John end up?

OKC for Mason (expiring) and one of their late firsts from SA or DEN? I could live with that, but would maybe ask for Weaver, too. We could possibly package one of these late picks with the HOU pick for a higher first in the 15ish range, which could land a Collison, Lawson, Mills or Brackins.

POR has been bandied about a lot too. I’d imagine they’re waiting to see if they can land a bigger fish in the form of Carter, or can fleece the Bucks for Jefferson. Frye does nothing for me, really, but wouldn’t their 08 1st be a better pick than SA or Den, via OKC?

DAL would be for Stack’s quasi-expiring, right? And Bass too? I’d rather get this package for Brad, actually, and get something a little better for John.

Would CLE settle for Salmons if they can’t land Jamison? Don’t think he’d fit well with LBJ, and we’d have to add someone like Mikki to fit Wally’s deal (doubt they take KT).

Who else is there? I always thought he’d work well in NO, but they’re clearly in cost cutting mode with the Chandler deal. Would the Spurs prefer Salmons to the costlier Carter? Would Splitter and/or a future 1st be enough along with their expirings? Who’s the rest of Amick’s 10-12?

by LPKingsFan on Feb 18, 2009 8:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

And Ziller...

I think it’s “bollocks.” “Bullocks” is just the chick from Speed.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Feb 18, 2009 8:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Statistical Argument

I like the statistics you threw out there. Very poignant. Even with John playing the best basketball of his career, he is still just average at best. I guess that’s one of the many reasons why the Kings are 11-43.

Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)

by dalt99 on Feb 18, 2009 9:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Garcia & Martin missing time

When the team played some close games didn’t hurt. If they won just 4 of those, it would be a different story right now. I’m totally serious I might add.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Godspeed, Johnny!

/agrees

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Feb 18, 2009 9:05 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I totally disagree

Trading Salmons now for cap space and a crappy #1 in a crappy draft is a mistake.

The only scenario this make sense is if the cap space free’d up makes a meaningful difference in the type of offers we can make. So, essentially, I only think we should do this if other big ticket players leave town for expirings.

Here’s my argument. If trading Salmons for expirings means we won’t have enough cap space to do anything but the MLE this summer anyway, than having the cap space is useless.

However, the only way I am onboard with this is if trading Salmons is the difference from being $5mil under the cap (can only use the MLE) and having $10-11mil under the cap, where you could be a true player in this summer’s free agent market.

If other trades result in that scenario than I am onboard, if not I don’t see the point. A late #1 in a crappy draft does very little for me.

by ForThree on Feb 18, 2009 9:18 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Well For Three

I didn’t exactly forecast the actual cap number, but I did say the luxury tax number would go down by 2 or 3 million dollars. That’s true of the salary cap. If you take my calculation into effect (about 50.5 million dollars or so), what you bring up is the exact point. You could take on a big expiring salary, for a combination of Jared Jeffries say, and whomever else for a team looking to dump that salary to get under the luxury tax line.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In my fanpost^

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

If Salmons off the books frees up cash that will not be spent, then the result is a savings to the Maloofs but not an improved team, unless Petrie strikes gold. The latter is a possible but not probable. In short, it could be giving away a talented player for free.

by sactown on Feb 18, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think people are reading the tarot cards here wrong

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I want something back to keep me warm nights

period.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 18, 2009 9:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

lttg is my past life

Married now and just loving those Friday night sex appointments with wifey (sigh).
[Why does she keep asking for a bigger bed?]

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 18, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Question for pookey.

I was reading one of the ESPN.com NBA beat guys and they pointed out that Salmons has a 20% trade kicker in his contract. Does that only effect his cap number after he is traded or during the trade. That was the first I had heard of it, which was surprising considering how long we have talked of trading Salmons.

There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru

by moproblemz on Feb 18, 2009 9:54 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Sam mentioned it in his blog entry that TZ linked on this post--so read it Mo

But basically, yeah, it does matter, because it’s included in his salary. Essentially, since they’re trading 15% of his salary, along with his base salary, that’s what the team would be taking on. (It’s roughly 7 million dollars Mo.)

The same problem exists with Mikki Moore as well. That’s why I don’t think the Kings will move him.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For whatever it's worth

Stein argues what Ford was saying by saying the Knicks are too high on Robinson. This is why the trade talks are such a guessing game. (He also mentions Salmons 15% trade kicker as well. This could be the reason that Salmons signed with Sactown.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 18, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Terrible argument

This, quite frankly is a terrible argument. You highlight all of Salmons deficiences and ignore his strengths. I don’t have a good way to lookup the numbers, as I’m typing on my phone, so I’m going to make some claims here without the ability to look them up. Spmeone will correct me of I’m wrong.

You point out Salmons points and compare that to the league as a whole. But you make no mention of how efficiently Salmons scores those points, where he’s in the upper echelon of the league.

You talk about Salmons rebound rank among small forwards, where he’s weak, but ignore his assist numbers among small forwards, where he’s much stronger.

In talking about Salmons defense, you talk about how bad the team’s defense is, which had little to do with Salmons individual abilities and is less his fault than anyone on the team. Salmons is at least an above average defender.

You also make no mention of Salmons frequent 4th quarter explosions or his ability to create his own shot. This wasn’t even a glass half full post. It was an argument that the glass is empty.

I in no way think Salmons is a superstar. Clearly, he’s not helping one of the worst teams on the league. I WANT him traded. If 10 – 12 teams are interested, Salmons should be able to fetch a decent lottery pick or a late first rounder and a promising youngster.

You

Shut up and Coach

by Carl on Feb 18, 2009 10:59 AM PST reply actions   2 recs

+1

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 18, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You also make no mention of Salmons frequent 4th quarter explosions or his ability to create his own shot.

On a team that will win less than 20 games. Is the difference between 17 wins and 21 wins worth a late first? Because that’s the trade-off if Petrie has a live offer for a late first and expirings.

Look, Petrie will attempt to get the best package he can. I think we can safely assume that. Would you bet that the best package one year from now will be better than the best package today? If not, if the marginal difference between the Kings with Salmons and the Kings without Salmons great enough to make up the difference?

by Ziller on Feb 18, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree

While I also want Salmons traded because of A) age vs. time it will take the team to be relevant B) peak value & C) plays a position of depth; I just don’t understand the negative sentiment this blog has towards Salmons. Make a post of the same nature regarding Martin only highlighting his defense and peripherals (lower than Salmons mind you) and you will be trashed.

by SeeingStars on Feb 18, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see the sentiment towards Salmons as negative

Just that given his age, he does not really fit into the rebuilding plans.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 18, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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