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A Nocioni/Miller/Salmons trade analysis

"Fuck." "I can't fucking believe this." "Why is John Salmons included in this trade?" "I fucking hate Geoff Petrie right now." "Fuck You Maloofs." Paraphrase of a few people, but namely dalt:"This trade isn't so bad." "You know what dalt, you're right." "Fuck, Dalt's right. This trade really ISN'T that bad."

Look, it's pretty simple. The Kings aren't perfect, and they didn't have hot commodities (like Tyson Chandler) on the market except Salmons, but really, couldn't they have gotten Nocioni without Salmons? That was my first reaction. (I would have loved a separate deal that included the dumping of Kenny Thomas, and that included John Salmoons somewhere else. And you know what? Oh well. It is what it is.)

If one is to ask me about Nocioni, I would tell you he shoots the 3 decently, can rebound some, swing between the 4 & 3 (not a bad thing), and provided a little edge/toughness to the group. I hope that is still the case.

Looking at 82games.com, and his shot chart, what sticks out to me is the relative similarity of eFG% of Noc's around the floor. If you look at his traditional stats, it supports what Noc does. He shoots about 38% from 3, an 80% FT shooter (helps a team that really needs to get to the line to win games), and averages just over 4 boards. If you look at 3pt%'s for this team, only 3 guys have posted a higher % from 3 than Noc. One of them is Kevin Martin. The other two are John Salmons and Brad Miller, and certainly Miller's percentage was increased by the relative few amount of attempts he made. Salmons was shooting a career high from there. So in a sense, I think the Kings are getting a player that may fit better with their current needs in Noc. (This is my hope. At this point, it's all I have.)

John Salmons vs Andres Nocioni

One should look at this season's stats first. Salmons first: Salmons is scoring 19 pts, just over 4 boards, just under 4 dimes, 38% from 3, and nearly 48% overall, along with a 82% from the FT line.

On one hand all that looks very good when you compare Nocioni to Salmons, in the sense that they're virtually a wash. However, when you look at Salmons career $'s, they're up everywhere across the baord with the notable excetion of the fact that Salmons is grabbings boards at a higher rate the last 2 seasons that he ever has. So in a sense, the Kings are selling high. I'm very much in tune with TZ on this one.

Let's focus on Noc now. If you look at Salmons/Nocioni's stats side by side, you'll notice that Noc has never jumped up to the level that John has. You'll also notice that this could be John just having the ultimate year of "great year on criminally awful team" too. Nocioni is what he is. He's a guy, especially on this team, who could get somewhere between 6 & 7 boards a night for this team, even with JT & Shawes getting a lot of the minutes up front. That would be an improvement over Salmons. Especially when you consider that Salmons has never shot higher than 34% from 3 anywhere in his career. If you notice, Nocioni is playing near his career levels. The problem is mainly with his contract, but we'll get to that part later in this program. Playing wise, Nocioni is what he is, and what he is could be the type of role player the Kings badly needed to move this team in a better direction defensively as well as offensively.

Look I'm not saying that Nocioni is going to overachieve for a couple seasons here, and blow us all away. What I'm suggesting is that the career season John Salmons is not likely to be duplicated without 2 main cogs of the offense not around, and more importantly, his shooting %'s are likely to dip without getting 40 mins a night. Nocioni is the type of player who seems probably better suited to start in the interim, and bring off the bench if you have a player move ahead of him in the rotation (Donte Greene?) at some point. There are advantages to this.

Brad Miller is gone. I'm glad for that. He was no longer producing at the level management expected, and he is probably the biggest reason the franchise tied Salmons into the trade for Chicago. Salmons is producing at a career level for a low contract amount (in this NBA), and that's a commodity. If it continues in Chicago, flipping him may be easier for the Bulls than for the Kings. Personally, the disappointment is in having Kenny Thomas still, but life is such that you can't do much about it. Asta la vista Brad. You had good moments here, and some bad one's. No more ill will toward you. Good luck in Chicago and beyond.

Beyond Noc, did the Kings get anything in this trade?

It's a good question, but the obvious answer in terms of on court talent, is probably not. Every other contract received Diogu (traded for Griffin which is whom the Kings got from the Bulls), Gooden, and Simmons. I don't expect Diogu or Simmons to make much of an impact. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Kings waived Gooden because they could save a little money, and they don't think there is much worth keeping him. (I also wouldn't be surprised if they tried to trade Gooden before the deadline. I doubt they'll succeed, but they can try.)

The financial ramifications of the expiring contracts are the reason the Kings took back Nocioni in the deal (besides the basketball things). Diogu's coming off the cap at a 2.91 clip, Gooden has a 7.15 expiring contract, and Simmons has a near 1.75 million contract this season. (It's unclear to me whether the Bulls picked up his option, but I think they didn't. So I'm going to assumed his contract is expiring.)

Financial ramifications of this deal

I've said, I don't know how many times, how money matters to every team in the league, and why it's so important that they keep their cap clear of problems. It's hard for teams, and GM's really, to do that as keeping players happy usually centers around compensating them properly.

First, it's important to understand that this is a continuation of yesterday. But to be honest, with Nocioni's contract, the financial situation has changed considerably.

It's pretty much a given the Kings will waive Moore before the end of the season to save the 4 million and change on his contract. That wasn't likely to change (that and the trade kicker making it hard to trade him) regardless of where Miller or Salmons ended up. It's also true this doesn't change Shareef Abdur Rahim's medical status, and the likelihood that insurance will cover 80% of this season, as well as next season. (Although that could go up to 90% as I speculated yesterday, but that will only happen next season.) Note: At 3:35 AM on Thursday, February 20 2009, Amick posted a note that Gooden's sore groin may keep the physical from happening. (I think that's just hot air. Why worry about it?) I'm more worried about Chicago though. I think, ultimately, the trade will go through. I'm hoping it does. I don't like the fact the Kings make a deal, and then it falls through. There is no time to fix that.

Now, let's assume the following. Moore and Rahim are going to count for about 3.3 million next season. (Read yesterday's entry up top for the explanation.)  We already know Diogu, Simmons and Gooden are expiring. Nocioni is on the hook for a guaranteed 21 million over the next 3 seasons (although the figure goes down slightly on an annual basis), and the 4th year is a team option. The Kings also no longer have Quincy Douby and Sam Cassell as they waived both to make room for the new players. (Not a surprise there.) Between the 3 expiring contracts, that's nearly 12 million dollars (at about 11.7) coming off the cap this season. You add this to Bobby Jackson's (about 6.9 million at it's highest) expiring contract, Quincy Douby's 1.4 million this season, Shelden Williams nearly 3.4 million, and what you have is roughly 23.4 million of contracts coming off this season. Spread amongst 6 players (or 7 if you want to add Cassell, and I don't), that's about 23.5 million in total contracts that won't be on the books next season. So cutting the cap was successful in some sense. The Kings won't have as much salary next season. This  doesn't include the salary owed Moore and Rahim, as the Kings save roughly 4 million on Moore's contract next season too. Cost cutting measure's: aren't they grand?

Onto the gorey details of the financial situation for next season. The main long term effect, as I've noted, Is Nocioni, and his remaining guaranteed 21 million over 3 years. Of course, when you compare this to the fact that Chicago is going to be paying nearly 18.5 million next season (when you add in Miller's contract as well as Salmons contract AND his trade kicker), this is not a bad financial deal for the Kings. Furthemore, if Salmons doesn't decide to exercise his ETO after the 09-10 season, the Kings will end up having a long term net savings of roughly 4 million dollars. In otherwords, spreading the financial burden over several seasons, and cutting a lot of money now, makes a ton of sense for a team rebuilding through the draft and it's current group of players.

For this exercise, I'm going to use DX as they've already updated their info:

  • Kevin Martin: Just under 9.7 million dollars
  • Kenny Thomas: 8.775 million dollars
  • Andres Nocioni: 7.5 million dollars (a decrease from the 8 million he's making this season)
  • Beno Udrih: Just under 6.05 million
  • Francisco Garcia: 5.585 million
  • Spencer Hawes: Just about 2.33 million
  • Jason Thompson: Just under 2.05 million
  • Donte Greene: 840 K
  • Bobby Brown: Just under 740 K
  • The Kings First Round Draft pick is likely to be anywhere from 3.7 million to 4.7 million dollars, but I'm going to assume 4.7 million to be safe--rather be too high and wrong, than be too low and wrong
  • The Houston 1st rounder is likely to cost anywhere from 1 to 2 million, and read note above
  • The 2nd round pick will cost what Bobby Brown has this season: About 440 K, and that pick is looking to be one of the top picks in the 2nd round (not a bad thing)

Now, if you take all 3 of the draft picks, and add them to the roster, you're looking at 13 players for next season. (This also happens to be the minimum amount of players a team can have on it's roster.) That's without re-signing anybody that's currently on the roster, like Shelden Williams or Drew Gooden. (I doubt either will be re-signed, but you never know.) That essentially means that the franchise will not be likely to look at a Free Agent unless that means replacing Kenny Thomas or Bobby Brown being included in the transaction. Call it a hunch.

Current Salary, in the 2009-10 season, for your Sacramento Kings: 54,207,110 dollars. In otherwords, the Kings cut salary, but not enough to actually garner cap room. Considering where this team is at, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Go into the season with your 13 players, and get another high quality player in the 2010 draft as well. Cut some money off your cap (The Kings, with all their picks in hand, and had they not made trades, would have more than likely been paying luxury tax. They were around 66 million before the draft picks were even included.)

Here's the problem with assuming the Kings will have cap room. Even if they renounce every player on their roster whose a Free Agent, the likelihood of the cap going down will end up that the Franchise's possibility of using the MId Level Exception will the only way they can acquire a player through Free Agency. (And for whatever it's worth, the Mid Level does count against your cap room if you're not below the cap at a certain level. Example: Salary Cap is at 55 Million dollars (which it may be for next season), and you're salary is at 51.5 million dollars. The Mid Level Exception, which would likely start at 5.5 million dollars (it's rougly 10% of the Salary Cap figure). You would still be considered to have the MLE as part of your cap total, and therefore, as far as the NBA, per the CBA, would consider your franchise to be over the salary cap.)

Now, I want to make this clear. I don't really think the Kings should be in play for a star. Partly this is because I don't think any real upgrade will be available at a reasonable cost. If you look at these moves, this is a team that is building through the draft (Martin, Garcia, Hawes, Thompson, Greene--might as well have been even though he was drafted by the Grizzlies, traded to Houston in a draft day trade, and then traded to Sacramento a month later in the Artest deal), and the likelihood of 3 additional players through the draft who can contribute to this team next  year. That's 8 players whom you drafted, or traded for before their rookie season. If there isn't a better way to build a team in a struggling market, and cheaply for that matter, I don't know what it is.

Last, but not least, you have to also consider that Thomas is an expiring contract, nearly 8.8 million dollars of an expiring contract, and Bobby Brown could be a throw in for a big trade. If the cap doesn't go down (which it might not), then the Kings still won't have cap room. But when you factor the potential to trade for a guy making 10 million dollars (if you combine Kenny Thomas and Bobby Brown), then the Kings certainly have achieved an objective of becoming financially flexible. Without spending money on the Free Agent market, or trades, most of the core of this team is homegrown. That is one way you can build allegiances with this fanbase, and with this team. One of the appeals of the Kings of yesteryear, in my opinion, was the camaraderie that the Divac/Webber Kings had. There's a chance this group builds that. Let's all hope so. Because it's very clear the Kings believe that Hawes and Thompson is more than a competent tandem. It's clear that Kevin Martin is still a damn good player (you don't drop 34 on Joe Johnson unless you're damn good). It's also equally clear that Nocioni's value could become such that a team like Philly  could always decide they're tired of Sammy Dalembert, and trade him for a Nocioni. (It happens.) The flexibility this team now has, that it hasn't had since 2005 when they signed Reef, is now in tow, and it couldn't have come at a better time. Big Up's to Geoff Petrie for having balls. Cuz it takes a pair or brass cojones to pull off a deal like this one.

UPDATE 9:06AM: The Kings just traded Brown/Williams, for McCants and Booth, and the net savings is roughly 740K. This decreases the Kings salary by that amount, making it 53,470,690 (assuming the draft pick comes out anywhere near the level that I projected it). It won't help the Kings greatly, as far as I can see, but it does mean they didn't think Bobby Brown was worth keeping long term. Good luck to both, Shelden, as well as Bobby, in their future endeavors.

UPDATE 8:43 PM: NBRANS just pointed out i was wrong about Shareef not coming off the cap at 80%. His entire salary will be taken off the cap. That miscalculation subtracts 1.3 million dollars from my calculation. As such the actual figure that should be considered as a reasonable figure heading into free agency is this: 52,170,690. Sorry for the error's folks. For whatever it is worth, if the Salary Cap is around 57 million, or even slightly above that, then I don't believe the Kings will have cap room because the Mid Level exception will not allow them to have cap room. (You can't renounce it if you're within distance of using it. This would fall in that range.) However, until the picks are known, this is only a projection, and not a final estimate. I would like to stress that.

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 63 comments  |  20 recs  | 

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Nice analysis & Rec'd

I have been waiting for someone to make me feel better about this trade—not that I hated it, I just had unreasonably high expectations. My only concern is that GP still has an itch for Gooden, who has been on the radar for a few years. It isn’t that I think Gooden is a bad player, but I don’t want to see him eating up either minutes (from Shock) or cap space beyond this year.

Beware certitude.

by Reges on Feb 19, 2009 7:42 AM PST reply actions  

I think Diago has a better chance to stay!

I wish I had that “I Love IKE” pic- insert here

by hudson101 on Feb 19, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions  

You're welcome, Hudson!

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Feb 19, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Great find Andy

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Reges

I don’t think Gooden will be much of a factor. If anything, i think the Kings will certify the trade once Chicago does. There’s no reason for them to worry about any player being damaged goods at this point.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah...

And apparently Natt has a hard-on for Gooden, too (based on their days in CLE together). I guarantee you Natt plays the shit out of Gooden.

by PhutureKings on Feb 19, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm guessing that won't change the deal

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I should have said

won’t kill the deal. There is always the chance that the Bulls might have to throw in a future pick or cash.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Great post as always & THANKS & Rec`d!

  I agree w/ SOME peeps around here this trade is alright !
Kmart should be better off w/o Salmons holding the ball all night.
Nocioni will do the littledirty stuff we pay MOORE to do & also play D on a 3 & also it some 3`s.Better fit at 3 w/Kmart in my opinion.

  Now all we have to do is find a STARTING PG & A def.C.
Two things we could address in the draft or FA or a sign & trade w/K9 exp.contract at the start of next year.K9 & a pick even w/o Brown will net a 10 mil player such as Boozer or Lee or Camby maybe Tyson will be healthy by then!

by hudson101 on Feb 19, 2009 7:47 AM PST reply actions  

Nicely Done

I tried to avoid much of the initial reactions to this trade. My gut instinct was that it was bad. But I let myself simmer, and I feel ok about it.

From what I’ve read and from what I understand (pookey, correct me if I’m wrong), we cut salary for 2010 and 2011. We’ll have a higher salary in 2012. But Hollinger was saying that if Salmons had theoretically exercised his player-option for 2012, it’d only be $1.5 million less of a cap hit than Noc’s contract will be. If it is true, I find it interesting.

Brad Miller had to go. I’m not going to beat a dead horse, we all know the ups and the downs of the B52 era. As pookey said, I wish Brad the best of luck and no hard feelings. But he had to be traded, and that has been accomplished.

As has been said here already, Salmons was in the best year of his career. At 29, his prime was fading. He was a solid contributor as a starter, and served us well. But it was a great time to sell high.

I think our main disappointment with this trade was that we’d spent a lot of time dreaming up scenarios for bigger names like Amare, Chandler and the like. This trade isn’t flashy, but it accomplishes what the team was going for. Many thanks to pookey for making it very clear in this post, particularly the financial aspects.

Rec’d for sure.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Feb 19, 2009 8:00 AM PST reply actions  

Well actually Ex G

I don’t know if it was clear, but Noc’s contract runs through 2013, with the option for the 12-13 year being a team option.

Miller & Salmons make roughly 18.5 million combined NEXT season. Nocioni has 21 million dollars over the life of his ENTIRE contract guaranteed. (He might have a pretty buyout. It doesn’t matter.) That doesn’t even include the fact that Salmons not exercise his ETO after next season (which would add another 6 million & change on to the deal). So in a way, the Kings took more guaranteed money, but a lot of that depends on whether Salmons exercises his ETO or not. (He probably will. Then again, maybe not.)

Now, Salmons only has a contract for 2 more seasons after this one. Miller expires after the 2010 season. Yet, the Kings only lose 2.5 million dollars for 3 years of Nocioni? Please, considering where MIller is at this point in his career, it’s hard to imagine the Kings could have done better unless the New York deal materialized.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Nice Job, Pook

I went through my own analysis last night and came to the same conclusions. Thanks for writing it out so wonderfully!

The way I saw it, assuming the Kings do not pick up Noc’s final year, and assuming Salmons does not opt-out (the 2010 competition is obviously stiff), the Kings save about 2 or 3 million overall, and get a lot of relief for next season (as you pointed out).

Well done, good sir.

by PhutureKings on Feb 19, 2009 8:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

Glad you enjoyed it.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Contracts

Thanks for the clarification. I had read a piece by Hollinger (who I wouldn’t exactly consider a guru of salary cap and contract information), and I was passing along what I had understood.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Feb 19, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Was it on insider?

If it is, do you mind sending it to me in an email?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Nevermind ex g

I know where you read it.

This part interests me:

Basketballwise, the one nice part of this deal is Diogu, who has produced in his few opportunities and could re-sign at a low price as a restricted free agent for the rebuilding Kings next season. Grade: C-minus

Ike Diogu is now the new Shelden Williams? I could live with that, cuz even though Diogu is short, he has very long arms. If Diogu performs well, than I could definitely seeing this being a huge positive in the deal.

(Note; I think Hollingers understanding of players is better than the salary cap.)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Great fanpost

Important point:

But when you factor the potential to trade for a guy making 10 million dollars (if you combine Kenny Thomas and Bobby Brown), then the Kings certainly have achieved an objective of becoming financially flexible.

That’s the part I find most important – even though the Nocioni contract adds some dollars down the road, it doesn’t kill Petrie’s ability to be flexible in the trade market. And that’s going to be hugely important next year, when Kenny Thomas’ contract goes from albatross to asset.

Let Petrie work his magic in the draft, clean up the head coaching position and most importantly, see what events transpire next season around this time that may allow the team to swing a deal for an upper echelon player.

At that point, Petrie’s puzzle pieces should be taking shape.

As it is, I’m going to try to enjoy the addition of Nocioni and Gooden, as they should make the product much more watchable this season.

Mambo King

by otis29 on Feb 19, 2009 8:42 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Yup good points all

Rec’d because I agree with just about everything said there.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

This could change if any other deals are made today -

But this also puts the Kings in the position wher they can trade with a team next year that is looking to clear space for 2010. That is they will be a few million under the cap, but they will have almost $9-15 million in expiring (spread based on whether or not they buy out Moore). That could give them the chance to get a very good player at a bargain price.

Great read, pookey. Rec’d

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 19, 2009 8:50 AM PST reply actions  

Thanks

I really wanted to convey that taking Nocioni’s deal was not a killer for the franchise overall. I hope I did it.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Bobby Brown and Sheldon Williams just traded!

to Minnie for Rashard Mccants

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 19, 2009 8:53 AM PST reply actions  

There's a fanshot up for this

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Also

A serious benefit to this trade is there is no real choice other than to start Shock and Hawes every game. Those guys will get 35 minutes or so per game barring foul trouble. We will really know if those two have what it takes after seeing them start for 28 games.

by mayfieldcol on Feb 19, 2009 9:05 AM PST reply actions  

Great post Pookey

even though I disagree, and basketball-reference says Salmons is a 35.4% 3pt shooter career over 41% this year. (unless I’m just reading something wrong)

As a result of this deal we can’t do anything but an MLE this summer. That’s ok, it doesn’t appear we could have done anything but that anyway, for any plausible scenario.

My problem with this trade, is it adds $6.5mil of salary next summer we didn’t have to have , meaning we won’t have nearly as much flexibility next summer as we could have.

My statement is true given one assumption, which I beleieve is reasonable:

That we could have traded Salmons today for expiring contracts. I believe this is a reasonable based on the interest in the guy. We didn’t deal Salmons for expirings because we had to send him along to get the Bulls to take Miller.

With this trade we have Nocioni’s contract counting against the cap for the next 3 year.

Instead, we could have kept Miller (a deal of Miller for expirings was not available) and let him expire next year or dealt him next year when he did become worth expirings. And today or this summer we could have dealt Salmons for expirings (my assumption). If we’d done that, we would have had $6.5mil’ish more cap room every summer until Nocioni’s deal expires except this upcoming summer.

Now keeping Miller and/or Salmons around has its own issues. I agree a change is a good thing. I’ll even buy the possibility Nocioni goes back to being a 15-16 PER guy maybe given a change of scenery.

Saying Nocioni’s deal isn’t a serious financial negative though isn’t fair. Its a huge negative for the summer after this upcoming one given the other option that was very, very likely available.

by ForThree on Feb 19, 2009 9:22 AM PST reply actions  

Here's the problem

The Kings needed to slash salary for next year. They did that with this deal. Holding onto Miller wouldn’t likely have to help them much on the court, and his deal wouldn’t expire until 2010. If they had only traded Salmons, and saved that salary, they were still looking at 70 million payroll next season.

Now, you compare that to with about 53 or 55 million for most of the crew PLUS the draft picks you have coming in the draft, that’s a huge difference to a rebuilding team that suddenly is losing money because people aren’t as interested as they were in the team as before.

Frankly, I think you’re mad the team isn’t spending money to make the type of moves you prefer. That’s not the world this team is in. Sorry, but I disagree with just about every point you made there. The Kings saved about 11 million dollars with this deal, and that’s assuming Diogu or Gooden doesn’t resign, which is a possibility I suppose, just on money alone guaranteed next season. That’s a big deal for this team when you consider Nocioni makes 7.5 million next season. Sorry, but I think your points couldn’t be more wrong.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm concerned

about what the team won’t be able to do the summer of 2010 now. That’s when the cost of this deal will be paid in basketball terms. You’re right it saves money in the meantime, but that money saved isn’t going to translate to anything basketball wise, because this summer the Kings will only have the MLE.

You could argue legitimately they are more likely to use the MLE this summer now, which I agree with, though I will then argue if using it or not is actually a good thing in the summer of 2009.

If you’re argument is, the Kings needed to dump salary next year for non-basketball reasons, then yes I totally agree with you. This deal will save the Maloofs a pile of cash next year, which is probably very relevant. Those Maloof savings aren’t going to translate to anything basketball wise though. All I’m saying is, this deal has been presented as not having negative basketball implications financially, which I think is incorrect.

This deal is a great salary dump in real $$ and has some basketball related financial issues that are negative, starting in the summer of 2010.

by ForThree on Feb 19, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I disagree that the Kings were ever going to be players in the summer of 10

So, in a sense, shoring up your financial area makes sense to me. I think it all depends on where the Kings end up in the salary cap area too. I also guesstimated high, so it’s a chance my figure is off by about 1 to 2 million, which I said in the calculation I was doing on purpose. It’s very easy to change.

You’re saying the Kings won’t be a player in the summer of 2010 when there’s a great likelihood that the salary cap may not be that high for the Kings to be a player anyway. It may also eliminate more teams out of the fray too. What’s worse is, what you suggest is that keeping this team intact was something this team could afford to do because of the important of 2010. I disagree. I think you’re mis-reading the tarot cards because you believe the Kings can be a bigger player in Free Agency than they can be. Of course, I never believe the 2010 Free Agency is anything but hubris bullshit. But whatever.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

2010

I’ve been under the belief for a while now that the Kings will make a splash in 2010 with some 2nd-tier guys. I imagine Martin, Shock, and Hawes will have established themselves as the keys to the team, and then we’ll be able to scoop up some great role players. And we’ll be able to do this while everyone else with cap space will be fighting over the bigger fish.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Feb 19, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I think the KIngs are in a great position to make a trade

But not in the spending on Free Agents game. Although, I don’t think this is that big of a deal.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree

If the Kings get a star player, it will almost certainly occur via trade, not 2010 free agency. Bosh wants to go to Chicago (and CHI is clearing the space for him, so that’s where he’ll end up). Bron has his choice of CLE, NYK or NJ, so the Kings are out of that race. D-Wade, who my gut has told me all along (although I don’t know why) is our best chance at a free agent will ikely stay in MIA, and if he doesn’t, then any of the teams losing out on LeBron will be in hot pursuit. That leaves….Amar’e. He’ll likely stay in PHX, and if not, then maybe a sign and trade gets done. Maybe it will be with us, and maybe it won’t.

The point is, we have no chance at LeBron, D-Wade or Bosh and a very small chance at Amar’e. So who does that leave for us to chase? Rondo? Dirk? Ty Thomas? Josh Howard? An aging Ginobili?

Granted, I’d love to have any of those guys on the team, but most will probably sign w/ their current teams or be out of our league anyway. I’m not saying that SAC can’t attract big talent. I’m saying that given the competition and posturing of every team in the league, it’d be an outside shot at best. Thus, I like our recent trades and feel that the biggest benfit will be the help it provides in our ability to make a trade for serious talent sometime in the next year or two.

by PhutureKings on Feb 19, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Someone who emerges

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 19, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Great post pookey!

Probably the most lucid argument I’ve ever seen you make =P

by thekangarooster on Feb 19, 2009 11:27 AM PST reply actions  

Don't forget

while the 2010 FA class looks great, the 2011 FA while smaller has some impact players the kings could get. Carmelo is one and Durant is another if he’s not a RFA. I could easily see both bolting their current teams when they become free agents.

smell the ashes

by iamstern'skippah! on Feb 19, 2009 1:39 PM PST reply actions  

It's likely that OKC will match any offer for him skippah

I would love Durant a Mantis, but ummm, it won’t happen sir.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

No shit...

Especially since by that time he’ll be averaging 30 pts a game.

by PhutureKings on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Particularly since the rules are more in favor of acquiring a player

when he’s been with a team after 4 years is much easier now.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions  

What I'm hoping for

is Durant doesn’t like being in the NBA’s version of Siberia and wants out. I don’t know what’s going on in his head, but I’m sure being in the middle of the relocation mess and being part of a franchise that everybody looks on with disdain probably doesn’t give him a positive view of the franchise. Of course, I could be completely wrong. But if my pipe dream is correct, the Kings would have a shot at him either by trade or free agency (again, I’m not sure if he’s a RFA 2010 or 2011, if 2011 forget about my post.)

smell the ashes

by iamstern'skippah! on Feb 19, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Skippah

They don’t call it Loud City for nuthin. I think he’ll feel fine about being in OKC after hearing how loud the fans are there.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

True

they have been good fans but it’s also a franchise in a new city. Let’s see if they still sell out next year with the economy the way it is and with interest of having a NBA franchise being replaced with regularity. I seem to remember hearing the 1986 Kings having crazy crowds for a mediocre-bad team.

I will fully admit that my view is twisted in the hope for doom for that franchise for what that sleazedouche owner did to Seattle and their doom could help the Kings, so I am looking at the dark side of their future which probably wont happen. But I can dream like Emperor Palpatine can dream!

smell the ashes

by iamstern'skippah! on Feb 19, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

They had crazy crowds until Jim Thomas drastically increased prices in the mid 90's

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I was there last night

and the arena was maybe 1/3 full. They should probably cut prices of the whole upper bowl and the highest ring of the lower bowl. If you purchase season tickets you shoul get a 5% discount on face value. They should also allow you to buy 3 game packages at a small discount, too. If we had bigger crowds the young team could really feed off of us.

by mayfieldcol on Feb 19, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Great ideas

In fact they should do a media blitz about how they are “giving back to the community in these troubled economic times”, earn some good will and in the end probably end up at least breaking even.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 19, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It seemed loud mayfield

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions  

It was loud

but it was still empty. We erupted when Kevin was fouled shooting the three and Shock got his and 1 dunk. I was almost certain we were going to win. I really think the crowd can drive a young team remember how well the kings played vs the Jazz on Cwebb’s jersey retirement night when 15 thousand people showed up.

by mayfieldcol on Feb 20, 2009 8:01 AM PST up reply actions  

That was a sold out crowd

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 20, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

So then don't we agree?

We need to sell more tickets and make the arena more loud?

by mayfieldcol on Feb 20, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Well I was talking about the Jazz game

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 20, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Very nice Pook, very nice. Your best written and best supported post

Like many here I was underwhelmed with the trade when I first heard about it but it didn’t freak me out, now Truly, I can’t. say I’m excited about it but I admire the way GP has cut salary. I am so glad brad is gone, I don’t think I could have handled having to watch him the rest of the season.

It is going to be interesting to see how kevin adapts to brad’s absence and whether Natt is going to try and get beno to distribute the ball a bit more. Overall, the trade hasn’t made us any worse (how could it?) and it does point the spotlight squarely on the kids. What these trades showed me is how important the need to contain costs is to the Maloofs and that we are going to improve over time and that rebuilding continues with no magic in sight.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 19, 2009 7:34 PM PST reply actions  

I think this trade illustrated that

Unless you have a top notch asset to move it’s going to be difficult to get exactly what you want back in a trade. Truthfully, I don’t mind having Nocioni back in a trade all that much. I don’t really think there is that much worth in going out and signing somebody in a free agent market. Kenny Thomas’ contract becomes an asset now, where as nobody wanted him at all.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions  

You got my rec'd early in the morning but just now I get to post something

My main thing about this trade is that we accomplished a lot of things (not all) that we set out to do before the deadline. We traded Brad, we got (a lot) of expirings, we cleared the frontcourt so that Shock and Hawes could finally get the most minutes (very important) and we got some value for Salmons in Nocioni. We were also able to get a test drive for a couple prospects (McCants, Diogu).

Overall, I think that we did an ok to good job. No, we didn’t get a star but that’s not really what we were going for before the Amare and Chandler ideas started to float around here. Considering the economic situation (and a lot of people are downplaying this) we did what we needed to do.

One last thing I wanted to point out is the fact that Petrie went out and got a different type of player. Different from what he has us accostumed to. A lot of people have criticized him for that and he added a little toughness and rebounding (fro the position) to this team so I give him points for that.

"Let's stop arguing and get together and agree on who really is the problem: PEACHES" - HighTops

by eduardo_m7 on Feb 19, 2009 8:07 PM PST reply actions  

To use a beisbol analogy Senor Eduardo

Petrie hit a solid single with a chance to get a double if he hustles into 2nd base. You get enough of those…….(We all get the point don’t we? This was a precursor to a bigger more gaudy deal where Petrie has the actual asset’s to pull this off. I’m just happy the King cut salary for next season. If Nocioni turns out to be a valuable player, regardless of the money, the Kings will win this trade hands down. To be continued….)

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a poll idea related to the new team

There will be many players with expiring contracts this summer. The Kings will need roster spots:
How many of the current expiring contracts that are currently on the Kings be offered to return:

0
1
2
3

I expect Ziller to come up with clever rejoinders to each of those numbers

by betweentheeyes on Feb 19, 2009 9:18 PM PST reply actions  

maybe a couple - the rest - scrap heap

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 19, 2009 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Not sure if anyone's posted this

But I thought I’d toss it in –
Nocioni averaged 19 points and 6 rebounds per 36 minutes last season. He’s fallen off a bit this year, but actually posted better numbers than that in years past. I think he’ll mostly do fine in filling in for Salmons.

Shut up and Coach

by Carl on Feb 19, 2009 10:03 PM PST reply actions  

I touched on that briefly

I really didn’t want to go into numbers analysis on that post though Carl.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 19, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

pookey

your amazing with your posts!

Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!

by Robby1987 on Feb 24, 2009 7:57 AM PST reply actions  

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