Revisiting an Old (Failed) Idea
A few seasons ago, Eric Musselman tried (out of desperation) Francisco Garcia at point guard. It didn't work. Garcia relied too much on creating his own shot and was too prone to awful turnovers. But things change ... and things have changed. Garcia's turnovers have been way, way down. The team's defensive rebounding and backcourt defense are as bad as ever. As Garcia has shown a decent propensity to get the ball to his teammates, Kevin Martin and John Salmons have also grown in this respect. The team now has a low post scorer in Jason Thompson. This is no longer Garcia running the show with a gun-shy scoring guard, a timid iso-focused small forward, a Lobster and a burn-out center. With the rest of the roster developed somewhat on offense, Garcia has less pressure at the point ... and he can really exploit some things with his length, quickness and (of course) jumper.
Basketball Value has +/- numbers for every unit every team plays. Here's Garcia's page. Scroll down and you'll see a few line-ups where Garcia is the de facto PG -- you can tell because Beno Udrih, Bobby Jackson and Bobby Brown don't appear in these units. There's Garcia/Martin/Salmons/Thompson/Hawes, which has a net positive 12.3 rating in a little over a quarter's worth of minutes/possessions. (This is adjusted for the opponent quality; the minutes against OKC, for example, are discounted whereas the ones against Denver tend to be boosted.) The Garcia/Martin/Salmons/Thompson/Miller unit is a slight negative, -1.7 in roughly the same amount of action. The Garcia/Martin/Salmons/Hawes/Miller unit has a +28 rating in 11 minutes of work. The three wings with Thompson and Shelden Williams is an even +0 in nine minutes. No other PG-less line-up with Garcia has more than four minutes as a unit.
I'm not saying Garcia at point guard is a magic bullet -- if Garcia started the rest of the season at the point, the Kings would still lose at least 65 or 70% of their games, I bet. But the team needs a few shakes, and for every good Beno performance he offers two bad nights. No offense to the Bobbys, but Brown's defense is currently as bad as Beno's, and Jackson is infinitely better suited (due to defensive reasons) as a firestarter off the bench in limited minutes/circumstances.
One more argument: only about a third of Garcia's minutes have come with Martin also on the floor, due to injuries and the fact that Garcia is basically Martin's back-up. In Garcia's total 730 minutes, he is shooting 43%. In those 250 minutes where he plays with Martin, he shoots 47%. There was a similarly drastic cut last year: Garcia shot 46% overall, and 49% when playing with Martin. Someone to take the offensive pressure off Garcia helps him a ton, especially (it seems) when it's a fellow shooter. To me, replacing Salmons with Garcia is NOT an option ... for so many reasons. But Garcia for Beno? That makes a lot of sense to me.
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Very Interesting
I’m all for it. Will give us a tall line up too, maybe creating some mismatches for us on both ends.
The only thing is we need Miller out of the starting lineup too. I would be very happy if Natt decided to start Spence and have Miller come off the bench until we trade him. Get Spence used to the idea of starting. Tonight would be especially good experience playing against Shaq.
Hawes-Miller...
The Kings need to continue playing Miller, especially when he recovers from the ab strain so other teams know he’s healthy (although I’m not completely convinced that he is hurt). What I want to see out of Hawes tonight is an awareness of who he is playing against. Spencer needs to bring Shaq outside and hit the jumper, he needs to out quick Shaq off the dribble and he needs to kick out when Shaq is in defensive position. Defensively, Hawes needs to hang tough but he is no match for “The Big Shaq-ass”. Hawes needs to get off quick and make Porter pull Shaq to match-up.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
I commented in the summer
when there was some debate about his extension that I thought Cisco had showed a huge upswing in his ball handling in the last 15-20games last year, many fewer mistakes/bonehead ‘bad Cisco’ plays, and I agree that he’s improved even more now that we see him healthy.
He’s still an offensive minded player who’s going to force some things, its his nature to be aggressive – but on an even marginally winning team the bad Cisco moments would be quickly forgiven/forgotten.
Backing up a quality PG, with perhaps a third coming in to deliver pure speed, that sounds like a recipe that could work to me. He still needs to work on passing the ball ahead out of the backcourt (the whole team does), when they do that they become very dangerous offensively.
Anyway, like a lot of Kings fans, Cisco is a favorite for me.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
As long as you don't care about defense
Garcia was destroyed by Westbrook. Absolutely murdered and destroyed. The only thing that Garcia did that worked defensively was fouling out.
Two things
1. Every other King who tried to guard Westbrook had the same result. You think Beno is better in that regard?
2. Who on the roster can guard the full gamut of PGs better than Garcia? Not to mention that defensive rebounding and turnover creation are both important parts of defense, and Garcia excels far beyond Beno and the Bobbys in that aspect.
Yeah, I think Beno is better guarding quick PGs
Honestly it’s like trying to decide which of two turds smells better, but I’d go with Beno, reluctantly. Garcia is just not quick enough to guard PGs. It’s not his fault. He’s not a PG.
Believe me, I get your overall point though, and anything that could make these games more interesting is fine by me. But regarding point 2, the Bobbys did a far better job of guarding Westbrook, as evidenced by his relatively quiet first half, when the Bobbys were mostly guarding him, and his owning of the 2nd half, when Garcia was doing his best. Ultimately I think whatever benefits the Kings gain offensively are going to be offset by defensive problems, and the result will be the same: more losses. Which is fine.
And anyone who thinks Rubio is the solution to all of this……. I have an arena to sell you.
What about me?
I’m not going to be paying for an Arena in Sacramento.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
Not particularly
I’m not trying to say there are any good options. The entire reason it’s plausible to consider playing a birdbrained SF at the point is because all of the available options completely suck. I just don’t think it’s correct to say that this option is better than any other of the crappy options, except that the result might be slightly more entertaining.
Point taken, to a degree
Westbrook’s best quarter was the third, and there was a Bobby in every minute of that quarter.
Garcia isn’t a birdbrained SF — he has the lowest turnover rate (TOV/possession) of any King. He played some PG in college, on a Final Four team. And he’s really a SG — it can be argued that Salmons and Garcia both play out of position because they are both guards too small to play SF.
Sure
As TZ admitted, the Kings aren’t going to win significantly more games with this configuration. It’s just another approach to an old problem; one that’s worth exploring, since the current approach is an indisputable failure and it could teach us something about Garcia.
I think nbrans is missing the point
It’s not a long term solution perse; what it is an option that you have that many of us were saying wasn’t possible as recently as last summer. The more options you have as a head coach, the more kind of versatility you can put on the 5 positions on the court. It makes your team better, and your fans love you cuz you win. Or something like that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
Not missing the point
I realize that it’s a somewhat viable option. I just don’t think it’s a particularly good one.
Based on what?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
Cisco would be guarding the #2 pt guards most of the time
No one is suggesting that he’s a long term answer at the primary spot – or are they?
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
Well said
And you did it with a stathead analysis few of us could ever contemplate.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
I like it too
but only if the Kings can trade Udrih. Otherwise we’re just killing Beno’s value without gaining a long-term solution or getting rid of his heavy contract. The Bobby’s aren’t a problem, since one plays for peanuts and the other has only a few months left as an NBA player. Obviously the best solution would be to draft an immediately great PG, so that we don’t care that Beno’s languishing on the bench, but we can’t exactly assume that wish will come true.
Say we can’t get rid of Beno before the deadline, but we want to get Frank 15 minutes per game at PG (and 10 at SG, 5 at SF). Regardless of who starts, Beno will have to give up a significant portion of his PG minutes to achieve this. Now Beno is playing 20-22 minutes per game, and his production has dropped proportionately (or worse, considering the ding to his confidence/morale). Suddenly the guy that we worked so hard to bring back last offseason has become a $32M backup (or third-stringer if we draft the PG of The Future in June) on one of the worst teams in the league. Now he’s become virtually impossible to trade until he becomes an expiring contract in 2012 and the Kings are suffer another four years in Salary Cap Hell.
From a basketball standpoint, I like pretty much any move that keeps Beno off the court, but I’m also very wary of diminishing his trade value for the above reasons.
It's why I'd trade Carroll for Beno straight up
At least that way, you aren’t killing Beno’s value. And Carroll is cheaper over the long haul.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
Right
it’s a depressing option, but probably prudent. Still, if it’s true that Dallas actually wants Beno you’ve got to demand something else, right? JJ Barea or a bigger deal for Carroll and Stack’s expiring contract?
Yeah that might be true too
Getting an expiring contract, or one that saves a ton of money, is a damn good option in the grand scheme of things.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
I got a quick question
What will it take for us to bring Kirk Hinrich. The Bulls need an inside guy to rebound (not that he will do much, but they will have a guy taller than 6 foot 10 on their team). I think Hinrich is tiered of looking over his shoulder and seeing rose. Hinrich has proven that he can score and pass the ball, if we can get him to play some d, then a Hinrich/Martin/Salmons/Thompson/Hawes I think would do ok. Yes start Thompson get him experience (and tank games).
The only way I could see Hinrich traded here
Is Beno going to Chicago. Or being involved with that.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
I meant that I agreed with pookey
Not that pookey needed to be dealt, too.
I thought that I better clarify before anyone got any bright ideas…
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
pookey for a clippers 2nd round pick?
they need some fans…
Donte? Donte'! Donté?!?!
'spect da 'xtra E'
by iashwash on Feb 2, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
then at least someone would be writing about the Clips
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
You know what
Fuck you guys. :)
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
See, he already knows the Clippers cheer!
by betweentheeyes on Feb 3, 2009 12:12 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh - Rec'd for that!
(that just might be thier cheer!)
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 3, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
wouldn't worry about hinrich's defense
he’s easily an upgrade over beno at the point…he’s one of the better defending PGs in the league IMO
The point was that you don't want Hinrich & Udrih on the same team
That was my point.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
This is going to sound weird
But would anybody else be interested to see Beno play off the ball ala Bobby J when Martin is out? You could even pair him with Cisco as the PG on offense, then switch them on defense.
Maybe?
Problem
Beno’s not that good off the ball. He’s OK, maybe a 75% Bibby in that regard. He’s much better driving with the ball in his hands.
That’s the sort of whole problem here — Beno with the ball in his hands isn’t better than Martin or Salmons creating, or Thompson working in the post.
Yeah
I can’t remember seeing him play 2, but I can imagine it’s not quite so pretty as watching Martin work. Still, it seems like he could be like a pint-sized Salmons: give him the ball when the movement stalls and let him do what he does best. Also it might get him more easy 3pt attempts, and bring his average back near where it was last year. Since he clearly doesn’t have the ability to direct this offense effectively, why not limit his role and exploit his talents?
Since early in the season
Once I saw Thompson playing well and Beno and Miller sputtering, the Kings starting lineup should be:
PG-Garcia
SG-Martin
SF-Salmons
PF-Thompson
C-Hawes
This is the future of the Kings and why not start it up right now? I like it. Thanks for putting into perspective TZ.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
As was pointed out in today's BEE
Miller is still better than Hawes. We better make sure other teams know it….
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
With Hawes starting you can substitute Miller for Hawes around the 6 minute mark of the first quarter. Then at the 2 minute mark bring Hawes back in to replace JT (assuming he isn’t in foul trouble before this point, which if he is, bring in Moore or Sheldon earlier and Hawes will replace them). This way Miller plays about 30 minutes a game and so does Hawes. JT would play 36 minutes. Everybody wins. You have Hawes and JT together for most of their time on the floor.
Kings rule! (They are royalty - right?)
by dalt99 on Feb 2, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is FUNNY!
I said this (Garcia at PG)before he came back & was Laughed at! One person said if I changed Green for Salmons MAYBE! INCREDIBLE & no I won`t look it up,all u know it alls do it!
This really reminds me of all the trade ideas you(really me!) come up with.
Look that up too LIKE Salmons to Portland! I 1st suggested that & was Laughed at,but all of a sudden let`s talk about Portland trade`s & NY & CHI & MIA.
TOO FUNNY!
I still don't like any Portland trade
That just results in cap space – not for Salmons. Smells like desperation to me….
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Yes you are correct!
that wasn’t you’re point.
Still, in the situation the team is in, its no wonder though that fans are all over the place from one day to the next as losses mount. Doesn’t make it right as you say that there has been a lot of contradictory things said, ridiculed one day, hoped for the next.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
'your'
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe
people were laughing at your grammar, punctuation, spelling, capitalization, etc.? Or maybe they didn’t respect your opinions because they came packaged with claims like: I had all of the ideas you had before you thought of them.
This isn’t high school. Most of us don’t know know each other personally, so we’re not trying to exclude you. We can only base our opinions of you on what you say. So if a lot of people have a problem with you, it’s because you’re saying stupid things, or you’re saying normal things in stupid ways, or both.
Maybe you should use this opportunity to restate why you think Garcia should play some PG, instead of trying to make fun of the whole forum.
Not much else to do
during a < 20 win season. Here’s a new idea: let’s talk about draft picks? trades? free agents?
Peaches?
I hope GP gives us something to do besides eat at each other
Soooooon!
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
see above
I guess its only natural now that real desperation is in the air.
I do wonder about the grammer police sometimes on a blog though – unless a post is so aggregious as to be unintelligable. (which has come up, but I don’t keep track of from whom)
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
and I know it's going to help you when your'e BLOGGING
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
muy bien amigo
"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley
Shelden @ PG
por mucho pelotas de ping pong
by betweentheeyes on Feb 3, 2009 12:24 AM PST up reply actions
I shouldn't be petty about the writing
but my point remains. If you think you have valid opinions that no one is taking seriously, you need to figure out how to frame them differently. Since no one knows you, no one has any personal reason to disrespect your ideas.
If you’re just pointing out that we’re talking about something we’ve talked about before, I would refer you to the title of the topic.
Well I'M GREAT
with a pair of chopsticks!
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 2, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting rationale for trading Beno, TZ. But...
Depending on which of the recent trade rumors actual happen, this could be the worst option. Certainly if any ot the Portland trades for Salmons where we get a guard in return happens then trading Beno isn’t a problem anyways. If the Miller to Miami for Marion happens but Salmons doesn’t get moved, we’ll have too many SF and then this is a great option. If no one else gets moved, moving Beno doesn’t matter much.
Who’s coming off the bench at SF & SG will be the biggest question? I know you said we’d probably lose about as many games but without bench scoring it could be alot worse. Depending on who’s left, a reserve rotation of Greene & Douby or BJax at SF & SG repectively, isn’t going to produce much.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I was thinking
I look at a team like the Thunder, and I think that they have such obvious holes at Center and SG, and they could easily sign middling freeagent veterans to upgrade their talent at those positions and be an average team. But they are not going to halfassedly patch those holes. They are rebuilding.
This offseason before we signed Beno, we had a pretty big whole at PG. We might have to play Cisco at point, for crying in the mud. And I was okay with that and scared to sign Beno. I was worried that they would sign him and we would have a middling PG for a few years with a bad contract, a setback to real rebuilding. And damn it, that’s what happened. At least Thompson is better than Sene.
by DustyG on Feb 2, 2009 2:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
How about Salmons at PG?
If Salmons became PG, he would be a better hall handler and passer than Garcia. Garcia can just move to SF in the starting line up.
by MakaveliTheDon on Feb 2, 2009 9:52 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Ooooh Noooooo
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth....and teach them how to war.
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 3, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions

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