A line in the sand

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 23, 2009 5:00 PM PST Comment 55 comments

I worry that this may be seen as more aggressive than I intend it, so please don't take it that way. I'm really not trying to call anyone out; this is a great site because we often have differing opinions and ideally we are respectful of these differences. That being said, I feel the need firmly state my stance on what is becoming the number one issue of this team because I am seeing a lack of "my side" being represented otherwise. Maybe I've missed it, and maybe I'm just wrong; please feel free to correct me.

The issue I'm concerned with is the question of what we Kings fans want to see from this team for the rest of the season. In other words, what are we hoping for? The way I see it, our hopes lay closer to one of two extremes: you're hoping we end up with the worst record and therefore the best chance at the #1 pick, or you're hoping the team wins out, pick be damned. I, firmly, am of the latter extreme.

Keep in mind, this is about hopes, not reasonable expectations. I don't reasonably think the Kings will win every one of their remaining games, but that's what I'm hoping for. Under that scenario, our team is drastically better by the end of the season than it is now, both on an individual player basis (development of the young'uns, clutch performance), and the team as a whole (building of team chemistry, ability to finish-out tough games), and this is measured by actual wins, not moral victories (close losses to good opponents, etc.). By fretting that we won't end up with the worst record, we're essentially hoping that our team is just as crappy through the rest of the season as we are now. I worry much more about what that would do to the culture of this team than what Petrie would do with the #8 pick instead of #1 or #2.

In summary, SCREW THE TOP PICK. As we all know, having the worst record doesn't guarantee the top pick anyways (I know, I know, the best odds, guaranteed top 4, blah blah blah). For the sake of full disclosure, I don't watch college ball. Blake Griffin could well be a futre All-Star, and maybe I'd be singing a different tune if I had a personal opinion about the man who will be #1. What I do know is, we already have a Power Forward that I'm pretty damn juiced about (okay, it's no secret I'm a little bit in love with JT), and what I think we need in the long term is a franchise Point Guard, so I say for the rest of the season let's win some GD games, draft the best Point Guard on the board when we pick, and let's turn this shit train around! Who's with me?

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

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Ra! Ra! Ra! What I want to see the rest of the way is simple; competitive, inspired basketball. I don’t think we have much to worry about “winning” a bunch of games the rest of the way, our roster is not good enough to win many games right now, so we’re going to lose and have a top 4 pick regardless and we’re going to be developing our young guys at the same time. At this point in the season all we should worry about is the amount of minutes our young guys get on the floor because obviously minutes lead to development which leads to hopeful future success. the Wins and Losses don’t matter at this point because barring the spirits of the basketball gods coming down to possess our entire roster, we’re not gonna win more than 5-8 games the rest of the season.

I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken

by joeytothelimit on Feb 23, 2009 5:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

For the record

I’m not at all offended by the Ra! Ra! Ra! part of your comment. Really, that is the root of this post. Things are getting a little depressing around here, and while there are many obvious reasons for us to be depressed about this season, I’d like to at least put up a decent fight for the rest of the year. If that makes me a hopeless cheerleader, hand me a skirt and some pom poms.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 23, 2009 7:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me point out a flaw to your rational.

The team that you are hoping turns things around and finishes strong is not the team that will be playing for the Kings next year. Bobby Jackson, Ike Diagu, Cedric Simmons, Will Solomon, Calvin Booth, Drew Gooden and Rashan McCants are all free agents at the end of the season. McCants, Diagu and if healthy Gooden will be given the opportunity to prove they are worthy of sticking around longer than 27 games. So you are willing to forgo top flight talents in Griffin and possibly Rubio so a handful of players who can’t muster 20 wins can build confidence for next season? Martin, Garcia, Beno, Noc, Greene, Hawes and Thompson are not a bad nucleus to build on but these guys need a boost via the draft if they ever want to make it to the playoffs and by most accounts this draft is only 2 or 3 deep in high quality talent. What is the difference between winning 3 or 4 games versus 8 or 9? The answer is you screw yourself for another 2 to 4 years by winning meaningless games with meaningless players.

Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.

by jjham15 on Feb 23, 2009 5:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I disagree with your premise about "meaningless players"

If this team starts to turn it around and win some games, it will be because of our core: Martin, JT, Spence, Garcia, Nocioni. If those guys don’t play better, the team doesn’t win, regardless of what the other new guys do. McCants, Solomon, and maybe Diagu may get enough minutes to do something, but I would contend that if any of them end up performing well enough to be a big part of our winning, there’s a good chance they’ll be a part of this team’s immediate future (for the right price).

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Pragmatism

1) I want the youngsters to play a lot of minutes. I want them to figure out what works in the NBA and what doesn’t. I want them to hone their games, so when victories are of real importance, they will not be tentative or make stupid mistakes.

2) I would like them to hustle, play smart, and show improvement each game as the season winds down. This is not a good team, and they are not going to win many games, realistically. But they can make better teams work hard to beat the Kings.

3) I want these things, and I want the top pick in the draft. It’s not a great draft, but 1 or 2 is going to be a lot more useful than 3 or 4, and dammit, I want it.

There are times when a retreat is tactical, and losing games (not tanking) is, in the larger scheme of things, a smart tactical move. I want the Kings to beat the Lakers in their remaining games The rest of them, I just want to see hustle, improvement, and developing chemistry.

It’s enough for now.

Rocks are free, and slingshots easily stolen.

by andy sims on Feb 23, 2009 6:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

small nitpick

losing games is never a good tactical move, though it can be a good strategic move.

by Viliphied on Feb 24, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Are we fans or are we tacticians?

I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t feel right trying to see the “bright side” of losing. Better draft odds is no consolation. We have the worst team in the league, and that sucks. It’s embarrassing. I’d rather have a team I can really be proud of by the end of the year than the having the worst team and a bunch of hope that some 19 year old is going to make it all better next year.

I know though that you want to see this team improve in the same ways I do. I just think I won’t be happy unless that improvement translates to wins. Otherwise, something is still really wrong with the team. I want to have a tangible reason to believe that this team is not as bad as it has been all year. That means wins.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A philosophy for improvement is getting more talent and improving the future talent already in place

so it is: Ra, Ra,Ra and blah, blah, blah.

It has been said countless times and will be repeated countless more: Winning cures all ills

If this Kings team wins the best chance and loses the the top pick – so be it. But to get the third or fourth worst record and get a correspondingly mediocre pick just tastes bad. This season has been painful as a Kings fan – to repeat it next season with disappointment in what should have been, knowing your emotions outplayed your logic just ain’t good sense. I want to head into next season with that spark of excitement a hopeful draft pick will provide is the smart play.

by betweentheeyes on Feb 23, 2009 6:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm with ASSN - I don't believe in tanking

and I worry very much about a culture of losing – especially in a small market like ours, its harder to cure.
Of course we all know I’d be fine with a certain 7’3" Tanzanian #3 or #4 pick.

History shows that the worst record, seemingly beyond all logic, has gotten the #1 only two of the last ten years.

Plus its MY team – and I don’t want them to lose.

Screw it.

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2009 7:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

At 12-46

I’m not too worried whether or not a late win or two will turn the culture of losing.

Simply, you still try to win every game. You don’t need to tank – the current level of talent will take care of the outcome (and I don’t mean that as a slam – it is what it is). Hope that the team works hard for the next 24 games and let the ping pong balls fall where they may.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 23, 2009 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I respectfully disagree

There’s still a full quarter of the season left; I don’t think we’re talking yet about “a late win or two”. I’m thinking of it like a 20+ game head-start on next year; do we want things to really start clicking with this team by the end of this season, or 15-20 games into next season?

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Most of this team won't be here next year

Which takes me back to “It is what it is.” My point is, this team has gone 12 up and 46 down so far, and my guess is that no matter how focused they are on winning, they will still win and lose at close to this rate. If we could just flip a switch and make things click, then why has the team waited until now? Also, it will take this roster at least a month just to get to know each other. Plus, we’re currently rolling with an interim coach (hopefully).

No matter how pure the intentions, this is a bad basketball team that will lose the bulk of their games between now and the end of the season.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Martin/JT/Hawes/Garcia/Noc/Beno is the team

No one else really matters; the core is who is going to win or lose the games for the rest of the season, and they’ll all be back next year.

As for the disparity in my hopes for improvement (wins) vs. yours, I’m apparently putting much more stock in the Chicago trade than you are. I think shedding Brad and Salmons are the best thing to happen to this team all year (mostly for attitude/chemistry reasons), and I think adding Nocioni could be a huge boost. I think we’ve seen evidence to that already. Even the 20 point loss to Dallas felt different than the other blowouts this year (is there a such thing as a “hard fought blowout”?).

The reality is, we’re still going to lose some games pretty badly, because there’s still a lot of teams that are 20 points better than us (especially on the road), but there’ve been a lot of losses this year that we could have won, if not for this year’s Usual Suspects of Sucktitude; I think it’s reasonable to hope that the changes made to this team are enough to turn some of those tough losses to tough wins.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you 98%

I just don’t think that the changes will translate into too many additional wins. We really launched more talent then we received in return. What we did is shed age and salary, and we opened up mintues for our youngsters. That’s a great thing. I just don’t know that it will be reflected in the win column.

I do respect your thoughts and opinions, and you may be right. Well played.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's actually very logical

History shows that the worst record, seemingly beyond all logic, has gotten the #1 only two of the last ten years.

Worst record gets you a 25% chance at the 1st pick. That would be 2.5 times in 10 years. So, 2 or 3 times would be right on the percentages.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 23, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So are you saying you don't want the worst record so we can get the #1??

by nothingbutnet on Feb 23, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

of course not

The 2nd worst record gets a smaller chance something like 20, so only 2 in 10. 10 worst like 1 or 1 in 100. If we could have picks 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 we’d have a 75% chance to get the pick.

Worst record still has the best chance, but it’s only a 25% chance. Once every 4 years on average.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 24, 2009 4:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm too lazy to look it up but

it would be interesting to see how all records 1-14 corralate with their respective picks over the life of the lottery.

The doctor said I wouldn't get so many nosebleeds if I just kept my finger outta there.
-Ralph

by kangsfan on Feb 23, 2009 10:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

intuitively its not

In a single season/draft that makes sense – but the probabilities that the teams with the highest chance would win more often over time seems clear.

But then I dream to hit the superlotto

So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,

Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Feb 23, 2009 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The teams with the highest chance do win more often

Assuming the stat that you gave, 2 times in the last 10 years is correct, then if the team with the worst record gets the number one pick either this year or next it will be exactly 25%. 3 times in 12 years. That’s more often than the #14 team has won.

If you’re saying the team with the worst record should win more often than every other team combined, that’s just silly. It’s a 25% chance. 1 in 4. Not a 75% chance or a 51% chance.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Feb 24, 2009 4:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

And how often the number one team has one in the past has no impact at all on this year. It’s like saying that because a penny came up heads 7 out of the last ten times, there is a 70% chance it will come up heads on this toss. No it is still 50. The wrost team will still have a 25 chance to get the #1 pick and each team will have a lower chance. They did this on purpose to keep teams from tanking to guarantee a #1 pick.

Personally I am with most everyone on this list. I cheer for the Kings to win every time and then when they lose, say, “Well at least we are more likely to get a top pick.”

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Rec'd solely for the last line

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

It sure wasn’t recd for spelling. After doing author assemblies for four elementary schools every day for two months straight, my mind is mush.

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

On that note

I hope the tour has gone well.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good, thanks

I’m still ~~making~~ eking out a living as a full time writer, instead of having to take a 9-5 job again. Kind of one of those, “the worst day fishing” kind of things. Hoping to get up to your neck of the woods next fall.

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Feb 26, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The reality is,

Given our record, it allows the coaching staff to almost treat the remaining games like preseason. Petrie can evaluate chemistry, line-ups etc. and make appropriate trades.

I don’t think we intentionally tank, but we are in a position to try things we might not otherwise want to do if we still had playoff hopes.

by nothingbutnet on Feb 23, 2009 10:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Other than to rest the player who will be playing next year, no new guys

The young guys need to learn how to play, offense & defense. Let them play & sub when necessary. If we win GOOD, & if we lose BETTER.

I knew that firing Reggie would create more problems than it would fix.

Natt has only one agenda, to return as head coach. So, damn the rebuild & damn the rookie development. When a guy who has been in the locker room 60 mins. gets more playing time then the PF of the future, you know things aren’t going to go as planned.

Reggie had 20 starting lineups because of injuries. Natt’s had 20 rotations because he’s desparate to win. And, one of the only games he’s won, was the game where he only had 7 players(no one counts K9 anymore), so he only subed to give people a rest.

Natt’s not going to give the new guys enough time to show what they’ve got. And, JT is going to lose playing time. This entire season will have gone to waste. The new coach should have be hired (with a long term contract ) to replace Reggie so he could use the remainder of the year as preparation for next year. Now, the only thing we can be sure of is that Natt will try to win one useless win after another, and the players will be no closer to being a team then they were in Aug..

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 24, 2009 12:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Let me ask you this

If you met Jason Thompson, would you tell him to his face that you hope he plays a lot of minutes but we still lose? He would smack you in your mouth and tell you where to shove your moral victories and your ping pong balls. Nocioni doesn’t even have his bags unpacked, but I’m pretty sure he’d choke you out for talking like that. We expect these guys to bust their balls every night, and they expect to win, so I don’t feel right hoping that they try their hardest and still fail.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would tell JT that I am rooting for them to win -

Then they would go out and lose about 80% of the time based on this year’s numbers.

That’s what I’m trying to say – you don’t have to root for them to lose, because they are going to lose anyway. Enjoy the four or five wins down the stretch, hope that they play hard, look for glimmers of hope. Tanking is not an option, and it doesn’t need to be – they’ve lost 34 of 46 without tanking.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You didn't suggest hoping for losses

but HighTops did, and I think he’s not alone. You and I disagree on reasonable expectations for a late season turnaround, but I don’t think you’d rather have this team losing. If given the options of the worst team with the top pick, or a much better team with a middle lottery pick, which do you choose? I know you don’t think we can really be a much better team this year, but play along.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You read me correctly

I never root for us to lose.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Feb 24, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I really think the problem with this team is that the key pieces up front are too young and inexperienced

Some of the really winnable games for this team to win 30 games were lost in November, and the mid part of the season where Brad Miller hardly did anything still hurts this team record.

You’ve got as far as I can tell 6 players who should be here next year: Martin, Garcia, Greene, Thompson, Shawes, and Nocioni. Everyone else is filling out the roster (and thankfully) many of these players expire at the end of this season. One of the things that has surprised me is that this team has NO depth.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Feb 24, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree. Winning and losing are both mindsets and cultures.

If you come in expecting to lose, Jennings, Griffin and Rubio won’t change that.

There can only be one Noce!

by NoceOne on Feb 24, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Such hostility, take a valium

I would hope that even though JT is a rookie, he would understand that losing your starting center & sf won’t make your team better. And, that a team with a .200 winning percentage, problably isn’t going to get much better. NO ONE is suggesting that they shouldn’t stop trying to win, only that they shouldn’t be suprised if they don’t.

My Dad play BB & Golf. I tried everytime we played to beat him. I was 35 before I beat him at Golf. And, I beat him less than 30 percent of the time we shot hoops. I enjoyed every game, and never stopped trying to win. Losing isn’t the worst thing, you can still have fun trying to win. You can take pleasure in getting better. It’s only when you don’t care if you lose, that you lose the joy of the game.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 24, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was trying to be funny, not hostile

But I wouldn’t mind a valium, if you’ve got some. You did say “If we win GOOD, & if we lose BETTER”, but maybe you were just being facetious.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The jest of the post was about team development & player development

At this point, there is no reward for winning. So, I’m more interested in player improvement & team development. I tried to say that if Natt makes his decisions based purely on trying to win, that it might hurt both. And in that case, I wish Theus would have been allowed to stay.

I never wanted them to lose. But if they were developing and getting better, I could live with winning or losing. Winning is self explanatory. And losing because, while molding the players into a team, it has the side benefit of adding another quality player to the team through a high draft choice. There’s nothing to be ashamed of in reaping the advandages, created by the league, for having an unsuccessful year, if you truly tried.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 24, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Winning is it's own reward

Just kidding; that’s too cheesy even for me. But sometimes it’s fun to talk like a fortune cookie.

Agree to disagree.

(but I’m totally right)

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A little clarification...

I think the crux of my message basically comes down to this: if given two options, “Option A” being we end up with 22+ wins and the #7 or #8 pick and “Option B” being we only get a few more wins for the rest of the year, end up with the worst record, and get the #1 pick, I’d take “Option A” in a heartbeat (maybe on the condition that our most of our losses for the rest of the year are far less ugly than they have been. A number of ugly losses would mostly offset the wins). I get the feeling that this is where I’m in the minority.

I think it’s a reasonable decision. I figure if we start winning as many games as we’re losing, many or all of the following things are happening:

JT starts to learn how to stay out of foul trouble. This makes him much more effective on the defensive end and more productive on the offensive end (most likely).

Spence starts to hit his shots more consistently, probably due to increased comfort on the court and with his teammates, and works on the foul problems himself.

Kevin keeps doing his thang, and also starts to figure-out how to crank it up at the end of games (a la last night’s 4th Q).

Nocioni replaces Salmons’ stats, give or take, but also makes his teammates better on both ends of the floor.

Team rebounding and team defense improve significantly.

These are all things we want to see from this team, right? You can’t tell me that if these things are happening, as a whole, we’re not winning a lot more games. Against the much better teams, sure, we’ll still lose even given our best effort. But there’s a lot of wins still on the schedule for us with some improved play. I’ll take the improvement and the wins, thanks.

As for the draft pick, I trust Petrie to add a major piece to this team with a top 8 pick in his hands. After all, there are no sure things with the lottery, and there’s very seldom a “sure thing” with any particular pick, but I think GP’s draft judgment is as much of a sure thing as there is. Bottom line, I’d rather have Geoff adding a major piece (a decent PG prospect?) to an improving young team starting to hit it’s stride than adding Griffin or Rubio or whatever other #1/#2 pick to the worst team in the league with little or no tangible improvement.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 2:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's kind of a moot point

If we won most of the rest of our games, it would mean we were good enough that we didn’t “need” a top pick to succeed. If we lose most of our games, we do need a top pick and probably more. So root for winning, but if we don’t, recognize that this is not the team of the future as currently constructed.

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Put me in the Opposite Camp

I figure that in a weak draft with only a couple strong prospects, if the playoffs are off the table, then it’s in the best interest of the team moving forward to lose. Of course, when I watch the games and it’s close like last night, I would like a win- but I don’t mind the loss. As long as the effort is still there and you don’t have your mark madsen-like players jacking up threes, then the best way to improve is through a strong player in the draft. Hurts more now, but the patience is rewarded with multiple winning seasons (if he’s legit). Best case scenario- we win out and still get the #1 pick…

And I'm like one of the most ghetto-ist guys in the NBA. - Ron Artest

by Kingsfan banished to AZ on Feb 24, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just realized...

We can’t win out and still get the #1 pick since we would be beating some of the teams we would also need to win. What can I say. Long day. How about .500 ball then…

And I'm like one of the most ghetto-ist guys in the NBA. - Ron Artest

by Kingsfan banished to AZ on Feb 24, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How about a third option?

The player development you outline is not solely possible if we win. Losing doesn’t preclude those things from happening.

As I see it there are 3 options based on the fact that we are the worst team in the league..
1). We play a lot of role players who won’t be on the team next year. Our core players continue to improve and we win a few extra games. The Plus is a little more pride for the players & the fans. The minus, we end up with the 5-8th pick in the draft.

2). We play a mix of youth & expiring, but everyone packs it in, and we win .200 of our remaining game. The Plus we get the #1 pick, the year ends up being a waste of time, and everyone goes home at the end of the season having proved we’re the worst team.

3) We play the core players, working on offense & defense, player development, and establishing a team frame of mind. We are competitive in most games, but continue to lose. We win what ever amount of games we win, because we are the worst team in the league. Which problaby means we end up with a top 5 draft pick. The players & fans go home after the season with pride, knowing that the team did it’s best and improved.

Only option 2 is unacceptable. And because my wish for the team is to someday win a championship, I perfer option 3 over option 1’s meaningless wins. Meaningless because they don’t help achieve the ultimate goal of winning a championship.

Failure in itself is not something to be ashamed of, only the failure to try and make the team better.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 24, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not a moot point, it is the point

What I’m saying is, I want the team that’s good enough that we don’t need a top pick; the whole reason for the post is because I’ve been getting the sense that, based on what I’ve been reading in many of the other posts and comments, this sentiment is not shared by all of StR’s contributors. I’m trying to make the case that it should be.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 4:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

^ that was supposed to be a reply to SavageBeast

oops

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think anyone is rooting for the team to be bad

If I had the least bit of hope that this was the team that could take us even back to the playoffs, I would be all for it. But I think that is asking too much of addition by subtraction. I always root for us to win, and I think most fans do. But at some point reality has to set in. And when it does, you look to the future—which in this case is without a doubt the lottery. And, man, if I’m going to play the lottery, I want to win!!!

"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke

by SavageBeast on Feb 24, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Tanking = losing on purpose or trying not to win

Against most teams we could play our best players playing their best game for 40 minutes each and we are still going to lose.

Now, our “best players” include JT and Spence and while they are much improved over their early season they are not going to win us many games………… yet. Playing the kids, ie, “player development” is not the same as tanking.

It may be the result of my lowered expectations but I was fine with the game last night. We played hard all night, we got behind, we rallied, the team was in a position near the end to win and we came up short. So be it, it was an entertaining game, all our future core had some good moments except for é who didn’t get much burn and everybody played hard if not always well. Two years from now that game is not acceptable but last night, for me it was.

For the rest of the season I hope we play our best game every night, even win a few and at the end of the season that we have either the worst or second worst record in the association.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Feb 24, 2009 4:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Led Zepplin said it well in 1976

The Song Remains the Same

This is not a script. You are not the director. To further the metaphor – the movie is more than two-thirds over.

Fellas, these guys are gonna play hard because that is the team the Kings now have in place. They want to win.The reality is – they won’t do so very often. As fans, our role is to root for this group. As fans we want a better team for next year and the years to come. The sequel(s) will be ugly, but less so. And it won’t happen with the current crew.

Big name Free Agents are not signing here. The Kings will improve with more talent, shrewd acquistions, patience, time and luck. The first step won’t happen until May 19th. There are no garuntees; but I, me want the best chance possible to have the best player available. I, me would like no worse than the 4th pick better than no worse than the 5th, 6th or 7th pick. And JT, Noci, KMart, Spence, Cisco and Beno want that first pick too. Because they don’t want next year to be like this year. You are worried about a culture of losing? If the Kings get the 7th pick (or 5th or 6th) the Kings will have even less talent to start next years’ even longer season. That will begat a cutlure of losing more than the remaining 25 games this year.

It he Kings put together wins next season they won’t stay up nights thinking about how the five 40 point losses that happened this year ruined their psyche. Now, let’s hope the Kings bring in a Coach.

by betweentheeyes on Feb 24, 2009 8:19 PM PST reply actions 1 recs

"Now, let’s hope the Kings bring in a Coach."

Amen!

Rec’d. Twice if I could. But just for that line.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 24, 2009 10:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thoughts

I hope the Kings improve where it counts, in the W column. That’s the true measure of success. Even though winning won’t get them into the playoffs, it will mean that we are heading in the right direction.

I’d like to see us take a page out of the Thunder’s revival in 2009. They are still a bad team, but they are more competitive and are putting up Ws (not so much lately). That’s what I’d like to see: more Ws in the last 24 games than we expect, with some against teams we don’t expect to beat. For me, that means we get over 20 wins on the season.

If we end up with the 7-8 pick, I think we will still get a good player/prospect. I am not so enamored with Rubio/Griffin that I think they are a huge upgrade from players/prospects like Curry, Teague, Monroe, Mullens, de Rozan, to name a few. And I think the other two picks could also yield some useful talent. Call it a hunch, but I think this draft could be better than folks are giving it credit for, just not so much at the top, but more in across-the-board depth.

I also think it’s important to give guys like McCants and possibly Diogu a decent look. I don’t think we should give any minutes to guys that have no chance to play for us next year.

It looks like Solomon got a 10-minute audition as he racked up a DNP in the last game.

The real decision is going to be in who coaches this group going forward. If we don’t show some improvement (reads Ws) in the past 24 games, Natt should be fired.

"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 25, 2009 6:45 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

The Griffin Rubio argument I'm going to forgo for now (been there done that)

I think your point about across the board depth is important. The Houston pick could provide a valuable player, particularly a defensive minded role player that could help the Kings win games next year. That pick in the 2nd round may prove as valuable as the Houston pick (particularly if Houston keeps rising in the standings). One thing I know is that the team has a chance to get a significant upgrade in talent. That’s a big deal to me.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Feb 25, 2009 7:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rec'd

Sounds like we’re on the same page. I think any win from here on out is much more than just a “meaningless win” that blows our lottery chances.

by AnotherStupidSN on Feb 25, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Moving down also moves down our 2nd round pick

Moving down because we play our core players (the ones that are going to be around next yr) is ok. I’m not interested in winning games because we played players who were showcasing their talent only to get picked up by some other team next year. Hollow victories don’t build teams or confidence.

We only have 8 returning contracts. The league roster minimum limit is 13. And, with the cap limit dropping to $57.3M, we’re not going to have as much cap space as we thought. So, our draft choices this coming year will be critical to the success of the team. The higher we pick the better the chance we can get a good player that can fill a need. And, that’s going to make it easier to pick up players to fill out the team with the limited cap space we’ll have.

So, if we heavily play the players that are going to be our core next yr, and we win & move later into the draft, so be it. I can live with that. But, every game that we win because Natt heavily plays expiring contract is wrong and totally detrimental to the future of this team.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 25, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

if the Kings pick 5,6 or 7 they will most likely have to pick a project

I will use Thabeet as an example because he is mentioned most frequently; he will take seasons (not one or two) to start to show significance, if he ever does. The Kings need to show improvement right away. Griffin, Rubio have a steeper trajectory on the improvement graph.

by betweentheeyes on Feb 25, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Won't that be fun

We’ll have JT & Hawes with basicly a year of experience each. A project in Greene and another 1st rounder thats a project. Maybe we should be looking for a babysitter instead of a coach.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Feb 26, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you ask me

They’re all going to be projects to some degree. I’m still not sure how Griffin’s game is going to translate. The clips of Rubio I’ve seen looks like he’s playing in city league, so again I am not sure what you’re getting there, although he held up OK in the Olympics.

"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."

by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 27, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs