How Good a Passer is Spencer Hawes?
by Ziller on Mar 23, 2009 2:30 PM PDT
in Commentary
59 comments
As we all noticed (as it was just about the only highlight), Spencer Hawes registered nine assists against Philadelphia on Sunday night. It set a career high.
How many other 20-year-old centers have ever dropped nine assists? Since 1986-87 (the furthest Basketball-Reference.com's search database goes back): zero.
In fact, among centers younger than 21 years old, Hawes has five of the top 10 single-game assist totals (the 9er from Sunday, two 6s and two 5s). Brook Lopez (who had eight in a game against the Knicks last week) is the only other 20-year-old center in the past two decades to break six.
As a 21-year-old rookie, Brad Daughtery went over 10 assists three times. (Daughtery actually isn't a bad comp for Hawes -- Spencer has shown more shot blocking and a bit better rebounding; Daughtery shot well more consistently. Daughtery also retired young due to injury, so I'll just shut up now.)
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Thanks for the perspective!
Somtimes we all need it ’round here when dealing with such a lousy and frustrating season. Easy to forget we have some talent – just not enough yet.
by Kusian on Mar 23, 2009 2:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I liked his passing in the Knicks game
I noticed a few plays where he was holding the ball in the high post as everyone else cut and moved around him, and then Hawes would dump the ball to the open cutter. Even the passes that missed the mark, or when the defense rotated to prevent the pass from becoming an assist, he has good court vision. Watching him dish from the high post, it reminded me a lot of all the best part of Brad Miller’s game, or the days of Divac dishing. I don’t want to jump to any conclusions, but I feel very comfortable with Hawes as our center if we’re moving back towards to Princeton-style offense.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Mar 23, 2009 2:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great points on the Shawes front
What I find enlightening is how well JT can pass the ball too. Both of these guys can create offense for other players with their own passing ability, and as a tandem, that’s hard to overlook or ignore.
On to Shawes himself: Some of those 9 dimes were lucky last night (to Garcia), but on the other hand, it’s also a good sign that he needs to touch the ball far more often than say, Beno Udrih, or Francisco Garcia.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 23, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I really, really hope so
There’s nothing wrong with getting excited about these guys and the future, but let’s not get carried away.
by LPKingsFan on Mar 24, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense is not going to be a problem for him
But he needs to learn to get true post position more often on offense and Especially on defense. Stop trying to block everything, keep position in the paint and ALTER shots.
You know what happens when you take a swipe at a ball you have no chance of blocking?
A layup. Many layups.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 23, 2009 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A shot you can't block
Is a shot that you can’t block. Nothing is absolute lttg.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 23, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
The stupidity of that reply is absolutely stupid. So I guess “nothing” is absolute is wrong.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just thought it was a little funny to talk rather absolutely about the lack of absolutes. Also I think Spence and the team D would be a little better off if Spence didn’t overcommit attempting to block shots. But his enthusiasm, I dig.
by DustyG on Mar 24, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah a real comment that isn't stupid
I find it hard, and impossible, to blame 1 or 2 guys for the dissolution of defense when there are 5 guys on the court. Is Hawes a stopper? No. Is JT? Probably not, but you never know
Either way, this defense wasn’t very good LAST year, and it’s regressed in part due to poor effort this year.
I don’t think it’s a major concern moving forward unless the defense continue to be this bad.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go right ahead
Pick a spot in Seattle and I’ll be glad to meet you and see if you can. My email in my profile, and feel free to pick a spot & time in anonymity if you wish.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
But if you want to challenge me to a fight, I’m not coming to you. I just don’t give a shit.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Children
Don’t make me be the voice of reason. That’s the seventh sign of the Apocalypse.
Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not allowing natural selection to do its work. You're like the guy that invented the seat belt.
by otis29 on Mar 24, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes Massah
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was hoping for MMA
and all I got was this –
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Mar 24, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I agree here
Chris Andersen in Denver is one of the league’s top shot-blockers. The guy is relentless and tries to block every shot that’s near him. It sometimes results in a pump-fake and a drive to the hoop, but it also results in a lot of blocks.
If I had to pick a flaw in defense, I’d rather have a guy try to block too many shots as opposed to not trying to block enough. And if you’re trying to block a shot, there’s a good chance you’ll force the shooter to alter his shot.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Mar 23, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with lttg here
I think on this team, a shot altered is so much more important than a shot blocked. Denver has the benefit on Chauncey, Jones, and Carter playing significant minutes at the guard spots so I’m assuming there’s less penetration. A healthy Kenyon Martin is a great defender in his own right. In this case, the Chris Andersen model works.
As far as the block numbers/altered shot relationship, I’m inclined to slightly disagree with you EG. Yao’s a good example of a guy who alters a ton of shots w/o necessarily blocking and/or sacrificing too much position.
by SeeingStars on Mar 23, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem
Your point that Denver has better perimeter defense is the problem. How can anyone say exactly who provides the greater problem defensively right now when few players stand out on that side of the ball?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 23, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe I singled anyone out in that last post
My point was that if your team defense is better than you can afford to have homerun hitters such as Andersen because their whiff attempts are going to be infrequent in proportion. That’s the position Denver is in. It’s no secret that everyone has defensive problems on this Kings squad ergo I wouldn’t want my last line of defense swatting at everything.
by SeeingStars on Mar 23, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going to smile now
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 4:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
Seriously Pookey I have no idea what you’re insinuating. First you counter my argument by saying (I’m assuming) that everyone on the roster has defensive problems which is basically my argument anyways. Then you post this crap.
by SeeingStars on Mar 24, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still smiling
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to block every shot can take you out of position to rebound
but, for now, the young bigs need to try to block as many shots as they can. Learning which shots you can or can’t block comes with trial and error.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Mar 23, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather they worked on defending the rim.
from 6’5" guys. Shotblocking effectively is an art, instinctive. A Very Good shotblocker gets 4 or 5 in a good game and knows when to try and when not to.
When its not a good opportunity they hang back, try to alter the shot and position for the rebound. As HT says, a fruitless attempt gets you out of position for the rebounds AND opens the basket for an easy offensive putback.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 23, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Confused
Trying to block a shot and whiffing is ineffective, and leads to layups; however “hang back, try to alter the shot”? How does one hang back AND alter a shot? And how does one alter a shot without trying to block it?
by misterbrister on Mar 24, 2009 5:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch them
They go at, Over and often past the oncoming guard/forward whatever who usually slipunder and past them to the rim.
By hang back I mean keep position in the paint (arms up would be good) and take up some space, make them adjust. It gives them one less step to adjust the ball position and encourages a late miss. They’ll still make some of course, but our young bigs almost clear the paint trying to take a bad swipe at the ball. They just do it waaay to often.
It looks enthusiastic but its very ineffective.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember MB
These guys are 7 footers or there about.
In the game the other night JT actually left his feet and fouled a 6’3" kid 15 ft from the basket. The enthusiam is great but USE your size, don’t try to play a guard like a guard.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry (I'm going on and on)
Make them shootover you, Make them get around you.
Take up space and pick your moments.
They still will get around or shoot over you from time to time, but play your game, use your advantages.. The end results will be better.
Brad’s technique was actually not bad, he was just incapable of decent lateral movement, had slow feet. These kids have more going for them there.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And block-out for each other dammit!
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree dude
Spencer is not a quick jumper. Watch him next time he goes for a block—He sets his feet slowly, almost always has to jump off of two feet and has really exaggerate arm movements when preparing to jump. He does all of this cause he really wants a dramtic block. Often his zeal results in a block, which is cool. Just as often it results in him overplaying, or putting himself in a bad position to further participate in the play. Blocks are a good indicator of good defense, I think, but there are much better defenders who block fewer shots. And I believe that Spence would be better of keeping position and not overplaying. I love his attitude toward defense, I think he will improve with discipline and experience. And this is a nice problem to have…never could blame Brad for trying too hard!
by DustyG on Mar 24, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On an unrelated note
what happened to those cool charts on that site where they compared a player’s career trajectory to others and found the best statistical fit? That was a fun way to procrastinate and muse about the future.
by LPKingsFan on Mar 23, 2009 3:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Al Horford
That is the only guy in the NBA listed as a center that has more total blocks and more total assists than Hawes.
I’m not sure what that means, but it must mean something, yes?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Mar 23, 2009 4:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It says
That from the start he’s gotten more minutes and played more games. Which is true seeing as how Spencer was injured to begin last season and came off the bench while Horford’s been a start from the get go. I think a better comparison might involve their numbers as starters.
www.mancancook.net
by vfettke on Mar 23, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al Horford is considered a center?
Weird
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
by Exhibit G on Mar 23, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't call him a center either
but that’s the position he currently plays on the Hawks. It’s kind of how David Lee is considered a center by some people just because it’s the position he plays, or like how CBS Sportsline ranked Kevin Durant as a shooting guard last season, but less so because Horford can actually do it while Lee is a bit undersized for the 4 spot and Durant isn’t agile enough for the 2 position.
"Greed is the inventor of injustice as well as the current enforcer." - Julian Casablancas
by submison on Mar 23, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does this mean Spence is destined to have a decent singing career after being voted off American Idol?
Oh wait, Daughtery. Not Daughtry. Neverrnind.
Dip til I rip
by Muff209 on Mar 23, 2009 5:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know ...
… whether to laugh or slap you (for getting that dude’s name all up in StR’s google juice).
by Ziller on Mar 23, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it makes you feel better
I feel a little less cooler for know who that guy is. Daughtery and Daughtry. But I blame that second guy on my kid sister’s cult-like devotion to American Idol.
Dip til I rip
by Muff209 on Mar 23, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
daugherty, not daughter-y
BThrills was the one who played daughter-y.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Mar 23, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for grins
Those centers that total over 200 combined blocks and assists (blocks listed first) -
Howard(Orl) 199 + 90 = 289
Yao(Hou) 130 + 122 = 252
Camby(LAC) 120 + 114 = 234
Horford(Atl) 83 + 147 = 230
O’Neal(Mia) 119 + 107 = 226
Hawes(Sac) 82 + 128 = 210
Perkins(Bos) 121 + 81 = 202
Gasol(Mem) 75 + 126 = 201
Biedrens(GS) 87 + 113 = 200
That’s not bad company. Kid better hurry, though. He turns 21 at the end of next month.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Mar 23, 2009 7:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's getting old
I say trade him now before his value goes down
"Let's stop arguing and get together and agree on who really is the problem: PEACHES" - HighTops
by eduardo_m7 on Mar 23, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Section 214 - unrelated question
Referring back to your post from a few weeks ago, you analyzed the remaining schedules of the cellar-dwellars and argued that it was unlikely that we’d end up worst in the league.
Do you have a sense of where we stand now?
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Mar 23, 2009 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Down to four teams
And my dart today would be us and the Wiz at 17 wins, Memphis at 18 and the Clips at 19. If you look at the schedules, Washington could easily stall at 16 and Memphis at 17.
Three games to (not) watch – Memphis @ Sacramento, Washington @ Memphis, Sacramento @ LA Clippers.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Mar 23, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
see what happens
Washington is terrible but it will be interesting to see what happens since Arenas is trying to come back. It doesnt mean much but if that is a win because other teams have checked out already it could make a difference. I am just going to hope that the #1 pick comes our way.
On the main thread note it is cool to see a difference in the attitude since the trade. I mean the team is just as bad but seeing the young guys improve seem to make everyone happier. No one is complaing about Thompsons complaining or about Hawes. Its nice to have some positive energy at the end of this disaster
by Hilton on Mar 23, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other "passing" bigs...
Sabonis, Walton, Miller…Any comparison? Other passing bigs to mention that we may compare him too?
by avishai on Mar 23, 2009 9:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pre-injury Sabonis or Walton
Sabonis or Walton would be great comparisons to work towards. Amazing skills. Not quite ready to put Spencer in that category, but I sure hope he works towards that benchmark.
by Kusian on Mar 23, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back to Passing
I think that Hawes has the opportunity to be a great passer. However, unless the Kings actively try to implement a system like the Princeton offense, wherein the other players are actually moving off the ball, it will be of little use.
Now I’m not saying that the Princeton is the way to go, I just want to see something other than the iso offense we’ve seen so much of this year.
by misterbrister on Mar 24, 2009 5:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah mister
It’s all about the coaching search. That’s what it will come down to this summer. Blake Griffin or Ricky Rubio won’t matter if Kenny Natt is the head coach next season.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 5:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've watched nearly every game
and I can’t recall us ever running an isolation offense. I’ve seen us running some pick and roll in the center of the floor, but by and large our offense is based more on player movement than any other team I can think of.
At times we run the offense badly, but its pretty rare we just clear out a side and let a player go one-on-one, largely because we don’t have that kind of player on the team.
Maybe its just a matter of semantics, but it seems to me we run a very motion based offense.
The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give…Howard Cosell
by ForThree on Mar 24, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I don't think it's a problem of concepts really
I think it’s a problem of players executing it at the level it needs to be it.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
It’s a motion offense, but still not executed at the best it can be.
by kingsfan300 on Mar 24, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno about that
If Hawes becomes proficient enough offensively in the low post, he’ll require a double team. Then his passing skills will matter a lot, regardless of the offense the team runs.
Lonely people mixing with one another? Breeding? Creating an even lonelier generation? You're not allowing natural selection to do its work. You're like the guy that invented the seat belt.
by otis29 on Mar 24, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Very good point
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....
by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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