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Around SBN: In Crunch Time, Spurs Don't Change Their Game

What Can a Coach Control?

We're a dozen games away from weighing coaching names, following rumors, arguing with each other, making cases, fretting, pondering and wishing Ailene Voisin would knock if off already, sheesh. The case for a coach that will run the Princeton has been made by many of us Carrilphiles. Others prefer a coach -- a Flip Saunders or Avery Johnson -- with a better defensive track record.

Coaching is one of the trickiest factors for armchair analysts to figure out. We rue to bad play call, wonder when our favorite player will get back in, and scream for time-outs. But that's just a piece of the coaching puzzle ... maybe not even a big piece. The coaches are responsible for the players for 160 days -- through practices and road trips and shootarounds and (yes) games. You can't measure warm fuzzies, respect, confidence and preparation. Arguably, those factors far surpass the tactical game decisions in the totality of an NBA season.

Being that Geoff Petrie assembled this roster, the roster has a particular offensive bent. The star, Kevin Martin: an offensive wizard who has been maligned for his lack of defensive acumen. The center, Spencer Hawes: a sharp-skilled high-post pivot still figuring out concepts like "boxing out" and "defending the lane." The rookie, Jason Thompson: does a foul count as a stop? (No.) The point guard, Beno Udrih: why bother running a pick-and-roll against him? Just roll.

None of these cats were signed or drafted for their defensive potential. Of course they have defensive potential ... but come on, Petrie drafted Martin because he beat Peja's pre-draft shooting records, and Quincy Douby because he beat Martin's shooting records. If you can shoot, if you can pass, if you can score -- you're a Petrie player.

You'd assume, then, that these cats need an offensive coach to make it all work. Even the addition of Pete Carril in an advisor role has helped the offense synch up pretty well. But can a coach affect the team's offense or defense as much as we believe?

In his book Basketball on Paper, current Nuggets analyst Dean Oliver addressed this a bit. In discussing the Top 25 offenses and defenses in NBA history, he finds an interesting distinction between the lists.

When a team appears on this list of great offense several times with the same coach, it may not actually be a reflection of great coaching, but a bit of luck on the coach's part to have good talent for a period of time. However, when a coach builds great offenses on multiple teams, that is at least an indication that the coach knows how to let great talent be a great system. More likely, the coach has some skill that he is passing on to his players to contribute to their greatness.

Only one coach -- George Karl -- appears on the top 25 offenses list with different teams (the '95 Sonics and the '01 Bucks). Phil Jackson looks to join him this season (to go along with several editions of the Jordan Bulls). So this skill that Oliver attributes to coaches -- it doesn't manifest very strongly on offense ... when compared to defense.

Oliver found that four coaches took different franchises to the top 25 defenses list: Jackson, Pat Riley, Larry Brown and Lenny Wilkens. That's a substantial figure -- those coaches take up nine of the 25 best defenses. Other coaches (Gregg Popovich, Frank Layden) on the list only coached one franchise. Almost the entire list is made up of coaches known as master motivators (Jackson, Wilkens), complete hard-asses (Riley, Popovich) or both (Brown). There are really very few surprises on the list ... as opposed to the offenses list, which boasts Del Harris (who had Kobe and Shaq for a few years ... and a sub-.500 coaching career outside of L.A.) and Dick Motta (whose coaching crimes you know well -- his great season with Blackman, Harper and Aguirre landed him the Kings contract).

Judging by Oliver's findings -- and this is me speaking, not Oliver -- it would seem a great offense absolutely depends on great offensive talent, while coaches can significantly impact a team's defense. Even Dick Motta! can coach a great offense -- it takes a great coach to pull off a great defense.

Again, Oliver doesn't explicitly write that; I'd hate to put theories in his mouth. But looking at those lists, and the coaches' overall reputations ... it's easy to see why you might advocate for an Avery Johnson, a Mike Budenholzer. (MIKE! BUDEN! HOLZER! people.)

We have no say in the end. (Heck, it seems Petrie has little say.) But it's worth looking at all the angles.

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Endnotes

by Tom Ziller on Mar 24, 2009 3:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Whoops ...

Too soon.

  • The problem I’d have with Whisenant isn’t the usual story — I don’t care if his experience is in the WNBA. I don’t care if his experience is on the moon — if you can coach, you can coach. My problem would be his relationship with the Maloofs, and the fairly obvious polarization it has or would create with the front office. Is Whiz wants to trade a player … do you think the Maloofs tell him no and side with Petrie? Blood and water, you know?
  • I’m not renouncing Eddie Jordan. Actually, it works against my long-stated E.J. bias to post this. But I’m a fair man, man.
  • Tom Thibodeau supposedly has people problems or B.O. or something. At what cost do we renounce one of the greater defensive assistants in modern basketball?
  • MIKE! BUDEN! HOLZER!

by Tom Ziller on Mar 24, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Where do I piss on this dream

By pointing out how high you were on Marc Iavaroni? And, umm, MIke! Buden! Holzer!

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with your dream

Budenholzer is a real deal. Just like Iavaroni was.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

But whose the better judge of character?

Poppovich or D’Antoni?

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jesus

Hear he’s got a nice spin move too.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know how methodical Poppovich is

He picks players that will play their roles and are willing to learn. You don’t think he’s like that with his assistants?

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well I guess

But he was the GM when Budenholzer was hired.

I disagree that it shows that he’s methodical because of how he looks at players. He’s not the GM; RC Buford is. (He was also a less than quality GM. It’s one reason San Antonio has gotten better.)

I think Pop likes Budenholzer cuz he’s probably a hell of a coach. I mean, compared to you or I VF, so is Kenny Natt when you get right down to it.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree

I could do a way better job of coaching these guys than Natt. I’d just visit StR during the games from my Blackberry to see what the know-it-all’s here think I’m doing wrong and make adjustments accordingly

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

And also...

Popovich, a less than quality GM? Really, dude?

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Less than RC Buford absolutely.

Although Carlisemo coached under Pop as a #1 assistant and he did not do so well on his own.

by mayfieldcol on Mar 25, 2009 6:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Carleismo had the track record of that as well

He did piss poor in Golden State and Portland as well.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 6:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

This makes very little sense

seeing as how they have a pretty strong partnership when it comes to building the team. And keep in mind Popovich is the man who drafted all three of their stars. I know Duncan was a given, but no one saw the other two coming

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 25, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Buford was the guy behind the other 2

In fact, Sam Presti, the OKC GM, convinced Buford AND Popovich to draft Tony Parker.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for passing along the notes

I personally found them interesting.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our offense has never been the problem

Its that D word.

Honestly, I really don’t care offense or defense, just find a mix that was as successful as the 2000-2004 bunch and I think we’ll be pleased.

BOOK IT!

by kingme18 on Mar 24, 2009 4:01 PM PDT reply actions  

I mean the only way to beat a TV star is with a movie star...

all signs point to Jordan.

There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru

by moproblemz on Mar 24, 2009 4:15 PM PDT reply actions  

JVanG

I am not supporting this mind you, but you want a coach who can coach defense, then you want Jeff Van Gundy. I couldn’t handle what he’d do to the offense, but the dude makes teams play defense.

by longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller on Mar 24, 2009 4:54 PM PDT reply actions  

Only you 214

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 24, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’d assume, then, that these cats need an offensive coach to make it all work.

This is why I have been and still say that the Kings should pick up Flip Sanders or Van Gundy. Ok, sure they’re not coaches that will give youngsters a whole lot of playing time, but Petrie has already blown that one wide open. They’d absolutely need to play the younger players.

Sanders is very much an offensive minded coach and he has extensive playoff experience/a championship on his belt. I can’t understand why the Maloofs and Petrie aren’t seriously looking at high talent, veteran coaches like these guys. It almost seems like they’re trying to hit a homer with some no-name coach, looking to go from rags to riches.

by CloudyEyes on Mar 24, 2009 5:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Yep

Can’t afford another whiff. It’s Flip time.

by LPKingsFan on Mar 24, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm all for Thibodeau

He can implement that defense. Plus, Petrie can keep Carill around as an advisor. Coachie’s worked wonders with this offense this year. I’d love for him to help for a full season with a proper team to work with.

Think about it. If Carill can get this team’s offensive efficiency up and Thibodeau can get them to actually play defense we have a shot at being a halfway decent team.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 6:02 PM PDT reply actions  

I guess I'm a Jordan guy

As TZ says, if offense is what you’re dealt – play to your strength.
(gotta have a great defensive coach on the bench though!)

Hell, I don’t know, but Somebody that has a Plan and can communicate it!

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 8:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Take your idea

and switch it. Get a great defensive coach with an offensive coach on the bench

We need to focus on defense. Right now, we have a decent offense. With Coachie around it’ll only get better. It’s really time to get a defensive minded coach who can work with these guys. That’s Thibodeau.

www.mancancook.net

by vfettke on Mar 24, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

You could be right

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm in the Flip Saunders/Avery Johnson camp

Since I think they could take the offense and run with it while having the guys play better defense on the other end of the floor. Avery took the Run and Gun Mavericks, got them to play better defensively and almost won a Championship.

by Aykis16 on Mar 24, 2009 9:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Then Avery was run out of town

Yes, Flip didn’t work with the Pistons, but he had a good run in Minny, which is more than the little general can say.

by LPKingsFan on Mar 25, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I put this in an earlier comment

There has to be cohesion – Coach + GM + Ownership.

Every Head Coach has been an assistant. It is a reasonable pool to chose from. But as the Kenny Natt Experience (KNE) has shown – some guys are assistant material and some assistants are Head Coach material.

As many have pointed out – with 3 Head Coaches up and going 0-3, how much do you risk by the possibility of going 0-4? Any choice is a gamble – Flip, Avery, EJordan, JVG – if they were absolute great – they wouldn’t be unemployed.

I would like to see whomever is hired go through GP and leave the ownership group out of it altogether. The one constant of the last three, nee four, coaching failures has been Maloff involvement. I want the Maloofs onboard as part of the cohension as ink bearers only (sign the checks).

And also, whomever is the HCotF (Head Coach of the Future) give him more than 20 games before judging. That means keep the microphones away from ownership unless it is to support and only support the person – leave editorial comments completely out. (just say No Joe – leave your fandom out about who you want to see play or how you want the team to play to your managment team only).

by betweentheeyes on Mar 24, 2009 9:51 PM PDT reply actions  

All good points

but I’d mention that Jordan was not apparently the reason the Wiz went down the drain. Gravity was the culprit as is often true.
Now, I feel like I know some things about basketball – but judging coaches I haven’t seen up close for a while isn’t one of those things. Therefore disregard any recent or future comments I may make on the topic – with this caveat – I’m not in favor of Avery because I feel like he lost a very good, healthy team (and made some blatantly puzzling decisions along the way).

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 24, 2009 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

true

but he could probably suit up and still run Beno’s fleshy and ill defined a$$ into the ground,

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Mar 25, 2009 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Kings are still averaging over 100 PPG, Correct?

With Reggie or with Natt, we still score. What kind of offensive scheme, no one knows, but we’re still like 13th in total offense. Any body we hire will have an offense, and we’ll continue to score. But, until someone teachs our players how to play defense, the current players or their replacements if they can’t cut it, We’re Not Going to Win. We’re not going to be a contender until we can defend.

So, are we bad defenders, because of the coaches, the players, the schemes, or the discipline. Get a Defensive Coach with a scheme, and give him the power and the long term contract to get the job done. Then if we still can’t play defense we’ll know it’s the players, and we can deal with it.

 Flip Sanders or Van Gundy or Avery or Thibodeau, I don’t care, as long as we start playing defense. Let the assistants work on the offense.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Mar 24, 2009 11:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Wrong metric

Points per game doesn’t tell you about a team’s offense. The Kings average a ton of possessions per game. The offense is No. 25.

by Tom Ziller on Mar 25, 2009 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

This team sucks at 2 ends

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Gross!

But unfortunately true.

by mayfieldcol on Mar 25, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely Agree

A very important offensive attribute is the ability to close out games and this team has not been capable of doing that. In my opinion that’s due to both coaching (bad end of game strategy and match ups) and team execution (lack of confidence and determination).

by hozr on Mar 25, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's compare notes

I got my info at NBA.com http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html
where it shows that the Kings score 99.97 pts placing them in 13th place.

Averaging a ton of possessions goes along with having a lot of turnovers. And, to me turnovers equates to execution. You can still have a good offense but execute poorly.

But, my point is that we have people that can score. Besides Martin, Cisco just had a 24pt game, McCants just scored 30, and Hawes just had a series of games where he scored 20. As alot of people here are continually stating, GP likes shooters.

PPG may not tell about the teams offensive effeciency, but putting the most balls in the hoop still determines the winner. And, isn’t winning what we all want?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Mar 25, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

let's take it slow

you win by scoring more than the other team.

The best metric for determining if you are good at scoring is when you have the ball, what is the likelihood you will score?

The number of times you evaluate the above question isn’t relevant, unless the sample size is very small, which its not because we have almost an entire season’s worth of possessions.

If we go to a shooting range aim a the same target and I hit it 7 times in 10 shots and you hit it 10 times in 50 shots, who is better?

The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give…Howard Cosell

by ForThree on Mar 26, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

More comparison

The 06-07 Grizzlies under Tony Barone averaged 101.6 points a game.
The Blazers this season averaged 98.8 points a game.

By points per game, Memphis had a better offense.

Memphis averaged 94 possessions a game.
Portland averages 87 possessions a game.

In a basketball game, the two teams will have roughly the same number of possessions. So let’s say the 06-07 Grizz and 08-09 Blazers play, and the pace comes out to 90 possessions. Each team’s defense is bad — let’s assume for the sake of simplicity they are average in this game. Working out the math on points and possessions, you’d expect Memphis to score 97 points and Portland to score … 102 points.

Portland has the league’s No. 2 offense. Memphis’ was one of the worst, despite being one of the highest PPG figures.

Either we’re not talking about the same sport, or one of us is wrong.

by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes Team performance

is more accurately judged by points per possession – no doubt thats a good metric. Do they turn it on its head for defense and calculate points allowed per possession?

Add the metric for average possessions allowed or gained in a decent sample, measured against eachother and that should be a pretty goodindicator of the total effectiveness of a team on both ends.

This should be reflected in thier record if that works.

(I’m less enamored in individual player analysis for reasons I’ve stated ad nauseum)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 26, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Points per possession = offensive effeciency, OK

And, your saying that is a better measurement of offensive capabilities than points per game, Correct?

How do things like offensive rebounds, turnovers, & possessions of less than 24 sec, affect these calculations. Also, where did you get your data?

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Mar 27, 2009 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Match the Talent.

Petrie has assembled talent that needs the correct offense and coach. It’s clear the Princeton offense has to come back, and probably Jordan as well. The young guy’s skills are perfect for ball movement and passing. Hawes has obvious passing talents, and JT was a guard not that long ago. All these guys can pass. Garcia has run the point. Beno the idiot might even be worth something (from the bench) in a ball movement O.

And I agree the Maloofs need to back off and let Petrie decide. After all, if they didn’t meddle in the first place we’d probably still be winning with Rick.

Oh, and Jordan in means McCants has got to go. Don’t want anyone who can’t share the ball.

by amonk81 on Mar 25, 2009 12:32 AM PDT reply actions  

This is key!

Match the talent or turn it over. And adding one “stopper” to the team could begin to change the culture.

by mayfieldcol on Mar 25, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thabeeeeet!

(had to get one in – its been a while)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 25, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Eddie Jordan's chances of winning a championship

Given Ziller’s aforementioned theory that a good defensive team requires a good defensive coach, I propose the following:

The Washington Wizards’ Defensive Rating from 03-04 to 07-08 was 107.5, 107.3, 110.6, and 109.6 respectively.

The best Defensive Ranking the Wizards saw during EJ’s tenure was 23rd.

The Defensive Ranking of the NBA Champions during the same time period was 2nd, 1st, 14th, 1st, and 2nd respectively.

Thus, courtesy of basketball-reference.com, Eddie Jordan is an unlikely candidate to make the Kings a champion.

by BrooklynFan on Mar 25, 2009 6:04 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm not the biggest EJ fan either

Even though I respect the man immensely for what he HAS done, I don’t think he makes the Kings a championship squad.

That being said, who is going to make THIS team next season a championship squad?

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good Point

which inspires the following correction:

Eddie Jordan is not the coach to take any team without three Hall of Famers in their prime to a championship.

No disrespect.

To Mayfieldcol’s point below: I agree. A crack-shot coach is not the panacea to our problems, but he would be a damn good start.

History shows, as I’ve stated on StR before, a shot at the championship typically requires the following six factors:

1) A Hall of Fame player in his prime
2) A good supporting cast of at least one All-Star
3) A good defensive coach
4) Owners willing to spend big money
5) A front-office willing to mortgage the future
6) Luck

The Kings score pretty low in all six categories.

by BrooklynFan on Mar 25, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree BrooklynFan.

1) Kings lack
2) Martin could be the All-Star if we get #1. Think of him as our Mo Williams if we had “our Lebron.”
3) I would not mind a defensive hire as long as his team can compete offensively. JVG is not the one.
4) If we get a serious player (Griffin, Rubio, etc) I think the Maloofs will be more willing to spend money.
5) Petrie is not the type of guy to go for one shot so I think Kings lack.
6) Kings lack

by mayfieldcol on Mar 25, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

i dunno about the hall of famer part

But the rest i think is true. Take for example the Pistons when they won their last championship. Who’s the hall of famer? Rasheed Wallace? Ben Wallace? The Celtics? I dunno if KG is going to be a hall of famer…but yeah, anyways, just saying.

by CloudyEyes on Mar 25, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good example that crossed my mind too

team team team

Do Hall of Famers make winning teams? Or vice versa?

Or like most team sports does it depend? (and I think in basketball ‘team’ maybe more important than almost any sport)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 25, 2009 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

KG is a 1st ballot HOF

Jes sayin.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry - wasn't clear

it was Cloudys Detroit reference iwas building on.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 25, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Detroit inspired the "typically"

Going down the list of champions all the way back to the 80s every team but the Pistons had a Hall of Fame player or future HoF player. That is if Olajawan is in the HoF. I can’t remember.

Point taken on Webber. Right now we’re experiencing the future mortgaged on Webber.

by BrooklynFan on Mar 26, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dream is in the Hall

And I believe this was his first year of eligibility. But, if he ALSO isn’t a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, then well, they shouldn’t bother having a Basketball Hall of Fame.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 26, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I argue noone is a candidate to make these Kings a champion.

We have to be decent before we start talking that way. He led Washington to tsecond round of the playoffs twice when they were healthy I think.

by mayfieldcol on Mar 25, 2009 6:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

channeling my inner Jim Mora

Champion? Champion? you’re talking about being a Champion??

I just want to win a game.

The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give…Howard Cosell

by ForThree on Mar 25, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

That youtube clip is classic

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

I am the stone that builder refused..I am the visual...The inspiration..That made lady sing the blues....I'm the spark that makes your idea bright.....The same spark that lights the dark....So that you can know your left from your right...I am the ballot in your box....The bullet in your gun...The inner glow that lets you know...To call your brother son....The story that just begun...The promise of what's to come...And I'm 'a remain a soldier till the war is won....

by pookeyguru on Mar 25, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

At least there are some real options on the table.

Personally, I could be swayed in favor of a few different possibilities. I was definitely feeling EJ for a while, especially with the return of Coachie. But how cool would it be if we brought in Thibodeau and he becomes that Popovich-style coach with the vision, plan, and ability and will to execute it? The kind of coach you keep around for 20 years (or as long as he wants to stay). I see that kind of potential, not to mention the fireworks that could happen when you team up two smart guys like Petrie and Thibodeau.

That said, I doubt I’d be disappointed with Saunders or another more established coach. I’m just glad that with this new coaching discussion it seems as if we have some real options from a variety of corners.

A lonely Kings fan in a sea of gold and purple...

by Jaycee on Mar 25, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions  

Whoever it is, we can't expect them to win a lot right away

Take it off the table.

A recognizable strategy from quarter to quarter, game to game so we can start to see past the weeds would be an immense improvement.

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Mar 25, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: What Can a Coach Control?

Lists of top defensive coaches and teams are very deceptive because they fail to take into account the connection between offense and defense. Let me explain.

Good defense is a function of good offense. A better way to say it is that good defense BEGINS with good offense. The most important factor in playing good defense is to “set” the defense 5 vs. 5 each trip down the floor. This is best accomplished through prudent shot selection and low turnover rates. In addition, disciplined offensive organization puts the players in position to “set” the defense consistently.

Further, it can be assumed that a team exhibiting prudent shot selection and low turnover rates will also score more often. The 4-5 seconds gained as the ball goes through the basket and before it is inbounded and advanced up the floor provides the scoring team more time to “get back” and “set” the defense.

The common denominator with the individuals mentioned as top defensive coaches in your post (Jackson, Riley, Brown, Popovich, et al) is that they are each HIGHLY DISCIPLINED OFFENSIVE COACHES. For example, Jackson’s (Tex Winter’s) Triangle Offense is predicated on “not forcing” scoring opportunities and stresses “proper court balance” whenever a shot is attempted.
 
Dean Oliver makes a compelling case on behalf of offense winning championships (as opposed to defense) in an article posted on his website. Again, not to put words in Dean’s mouth … after reading his findings one can deduce that good offense puts a team in the best possible position to play good defense.

The game of basketball changed forever with the elimination of the center jump after each made basket in 1937. As a result of this rule change, basketball defense and offense became inextricably connected. And as such, it is impossible to separate the truly great defensive coaches from their counterparts on the offensive end.

by OffenseWins on Apr 11, 2009 9:03 AM PDT reply actions  

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