Shock and Hawes Give It a Rest!
by bringbackbuddytrees on Apr 17, 2009 7:08 PM PDT
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PrintUnderstandably Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes give starved Kings fan some silver lining to an otherwise terrible two years. But at the same time, let's not let our lack of talent and coaching rose color what we have. This site seems to view it sacriligeous to say anything disparaging "the future" frontcourt - including drafting Blake Griffin, the obvious #1 pick. Thompson is willing to bang with good athleticism from having had a late growth-spurt and a workable mid-range game but fouls more than anyone in the league. Hawes has 3 pt. range and solid post moves and has improved his defense but tends to succomb to physical play.
They seem like good fits for the Princeton style offense of passing big men in the high post. They are likeable young players that seem to listen to coaching (unfortunately, the coaching outside of Coachie may have left something to be desired especially on the defensive end.)
With these two works in progress starting for the second half of the year, the Kings still possessed the worst record in the league. If these two were to be coming out of the draft now, Hawes may be a fourth or fifth pick and Thompson around 10. They are not #1 picks. It is possible that their extended minutes (and those given to Nocioni and Garcia) might have hampered the use of Diogu or Greene. It is possible that Diogu might actually have a more advanced game or that Blake Griffin would represent significant upgrades. Let's be willing to admit it!
Frankly, Francisco Garcia, I am not sure should be a starter in this league at the 3 and Nocioni should not be more than a role player. Both seem inconsistent. Kevin needs to still prove he will play both ends. Beno is nothing but a backup with self-esteem issues.
The pieces are there to make huge strides next year but a coach (Why not Tom Thibodeau (with Coachie running the O since Eddie Jordan doesn't coach D) and the 2 first round picks will need to lift the franchise. Anybody else see that Sacramento's own and former Kings assistant Scottie Brooks got a multi-year extension in Oklahoma City and wonder how it would be different if he got the job instead of Theus?
(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)
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A couple quick thoughts
As fans of this team, we are also really tough on our players. We have all, to different extents, criticized both JT and Hawes and know that they have areas in their games that they need to get better at. Every player in this league has. Does that mean we are not allowed to get excited about our young frontcourt?? When is it ok for fans to get excited about players with potential?? Should we wait until they become proven players?? Some of us are excited because they have shown a lot of progress this year and their flaws seem to be things they can work at.
You can say all you want about Blake Griffin, hell you can say all you want about Ricky Rubio, but none of them has played a minute in the NBA so at this point I prefer Shock and Hawes cause I know what they can do on the court. If we were to draft Blake Griffin I would welcome that and look forward to having one of the best young frontocurts in the NBA for years to come.At the same time, why would we “admit” that Blake Griffin is a “significant upgrade” over JT at this point in time. How can we be “willing to admit it” with certinty if we have never seen Griffin play in this league?? Not saying JT is better, just saying that there’s no way to know that Blake Griffin would help this team more than JT would (the same could be said for Rubio)
We may be the worst team the league but you can’t put that on Shock and Hawes.Were you expecting these guys to make this team great all of a sudden?? This is what rebuilding looks like brother
One last point. I don’t remember anyone here saying that Cisco is our starting 3. For me (and I believe for most people here) he has the chance of becoming a great 6th man and that should be his role on this team, now and hopefully in the future.
by eduardo_m7 on Apr 17, 2009 8:40 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Well said ed
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Um what?
It is not sacrilege to advocate drafting Griffin No. 1. Lots of people hear do it. Many disagree, many agree. Not an echo chamber, at least on that topic.
To deny, however, that Hawes and Thompson look like good players at least right now … that’s a bit silly.
I totally don't get this
This site seems to view it sacriligeous to say anything disparaging “the future” frontcourt – including drafting Blake Griffin, the obvious #1 pick.
I have been hanging out here for a while now, and I’ve seen lots of people voice different opinions, gotten into a few arguments myself, and never, ever been told by anybody “from on high” that my side of the argument didn’t mesh with the viewpoints of the StR community. Nor has anyone else, to my knowledge.
I have no idea where all these “if-you-don’t-agree-with-Ziller-you’re-scum” posts are coming from, but seriously, it’s completely stupid. Can’t you be part of the community and make your opinions heard without insulting the rest of us?
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Apr 18, 2009 11:15 AM PDT reply actions
No
But I’m an asshole anyway.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
"They're all assholes sir"
Lord Helmet: “I’m surrounded by Assholes”
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Apr 18, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Classic sir
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
StR: The land of communal group think
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
He hasn't been reading my posts
doubts? I’m full of them.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 19, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
A point or two in rebuttal.
It is possible that Diogu might actually have a more advanced game or that Blake Griffin would represent significant upgrades. Let’s be willing to admit it!
1- Ike Diogu has been in the NBA for 4 seaons so his game should be more advanced.
2- Ike Diogu played a whopping 29 games on the season, Thompson 82, Hawes 77. Is it possible that Thompson; playing what amounts to almost 3 college seasons in his rookie season, and Hawes playing as an NBA starter for the first time and is only 20 years old to boot might both be worn down?
3- Minnesota is horrible and missing their #1 post player- Diogu got to put up numbers against the likes of Sheldon Williams and Mark Madsen, hardly NBA talent. Diogu’s stats against Denver came in a 20 point loss, somebody had to put in those hollow numbers.
4. Diogu was playing for his NBA life- people always talk about a contract year, well this guy was playing 2 games to prove that he might be good enough to sign to a short term non-guaranteed NBA contract. Ike had to score, he had to rebound, he had to play defense and I’m not convinced that he could compete at a third of this level on a consistent basis over an 82 game schedule.
While I would love to draft Blake Griffin to pair with JT and Hawes, the Kings are at the mercy of the ping pong balls. As for Diogu, if he wants to stay for veteran minimum money then I don’t mind him sticking around for an extra body but let’s not fool ourselves into believing that he “represents a significant upgrade” over either Hawes or Thompson because he has had 4 seasons in the NBA to prove that he can put up numbers and not succeeded in doing so. I am not blind to the limitations of both Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes but I have seen the potential and production on the floor over 82 games while Diogu has struggled to earn minutes on 4 NBA teams. Two games, at the end of a miserable season, does not do much to change my or an NBA GMs opinion on Ike Diogu as a player.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
by jjham15 on Apr 18, 2009 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Well said JJ
And rec’d for the kernel of truth.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The only reason I think the Kings took Diogu
Was because he was a live body who was younger than Ruffin, and why not see what he had? Otherwise, the money they saved by Portland paying them to take his salary was the major reason I see them making that deal.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Playing for his NBA life aside
Did he show a good mid range jumper, regardless of who was on the floor defending him? Yes
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
2 games, no wait, 2 games, did I mention 2 games.
Come on now, let’s not anoint Diogu the next best thing, that is how bad contracts are made. I also remember Sheldon Williams hitting a nice mid-range jumper for Minnesota, does that mean he’ll be on an NBA roster come November? Let’s just call it a couple of nice performances by an NBA journeyman in two completely meaningless games. I like Diogu but let’s be real here.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
OOps
Did he show that he could shoot the 3pt shot? Yes Was he able to put the ball on the floor from the elbow and finish at the rim with authority. Yes Did he use his big body to get position and rebound well? Yes Was he able to score inside against the 2nd best shoot-blocker in the NBA? Yes.
Of course, he has down sides and may not be better than JT, but he is better at PF than Noc. And, right now Noc is all we have unless you wish to include K9. The team needs at least 2 more bigs by next season. Maybe one of those positions will be filled by one of our first 2 draft picks, but don’t expect a 23rd pick in the draft to come in an perform as well as Ike did.
If we don’t fill a big slot with our 1st pick, we’ll be hard pressed to fill the 3rd big rotation spot, with our limited cap space. As our 3rd big Ike would be cheaper than most anyone else we could trade for even at the QO. As the 4th big, he’d be worth far less, seeing as we could probably resign Booth for the Vet Minimum.
Don’t judge Ike by his history, look at the skill set that he showed and decide if we could use those skills.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Not to irritate you
Since you’re a dangerous guy, but I’d much rather have Donte at backup PF than Ike if scoring is the actual name of the game here.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
yes it is a small sample size, yes he played two games, yes he has been traded by three teams
But the reaity is he performed. He has talent, now. I like Donte but the guy is not a low post threat and needs at least one more season to be anything other than a DNP-CD threat.
Should he be signed for the MLE? Hell no. Is he worth $5M for 2 years with team option for the third? Well, let me ask you in a different way:
Right now the Sacramento Kings have: KM, FG, BU, SH, JT, AN, and K9. That is 7 players. They are drafting 3, and let’s say for the sake of hope and money that all 3 are kept. Now the Kings have 10 players. What other (minimum 2, maximum 5) other players do you have in mind? Summer League? ok I will throw in one. Why not pay Like Diogu and keep him on board as a known entity? I, for one, would look forward to seeing how this guy performs next year. But that is a decision for GP, the Maloofs, Like Diogu, Like Diogu’s agent, and TNHC (the next Head Coach) to figure out.
Not too hot in the hot tub (of the Kings) to write this guy off.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 18, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok
But how about 1 year, $2mil, team option for 2nd year at 2.5.
Worst case you spend a couple million next year on a reasonable back-up. Best case he works his (enormous!) butt off and impresses us enough to extend his contract perhaps even beyond the second year.
But I absolutely don’t want us to tie up a ton of money long term on this guy when he hasn’t really proven anything.
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Apr 18, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we are of a like mind
To me, two years is not a long term commitment and it throws the guy a bone that he is desired and believed in.
I have been of the belief that if the players want free agency then they should all be free agents every year. It is an argument for another time, but playing for your contract – whether it be one year or seven – is a big, large, ginormous motivator.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 18, 2009 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
If we keep K9
And only sign Diogu for one year, that’s a lot of money to go shopping with.
And I ain’t talkin’ shoes.
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Apr 19, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
and I have a feeling you are not Mars Blackmon
Is it the shoes, Money?
by betweentheeyes on Apr 19, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still think you're basing an opinion of a very small sample size.
If you’re the Nuggets, it doesn’t matter who scores for the Kings or how they scored, it was a twenty point blow out. As for game the Minnesota game, they had no one to guard Mikki Moore let alone Ike Diogu. If we are basing next years team off of a game or two then priority #1 for the Kings should be to lock up Brian Skinner for the next 2-3 years. And I’m not saying that Diogu is a P.O.S., I’m just saying that I haven’t seen enough to make him the answer.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Luckily for Ike people that have seen him in practice will have the say
According to BJax, Ike has been doing the same kind of thing in practice since he joined the team. To paraphrase his words (Bobby’s) ‘Ike has been killing JT & Hawes in practice’. Certainly, it would be a lot more reassuring if we had seen him more, but we didn’t so we have to make our judgement based on what we did see.
If I see a painting that I like, I don’t have to see 50 more by the same painter to like what he does. Hawes was picked because of his skill set before he ever played in the NBA. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut based on what you’ve seen. I saw enough to think that Ike can play. He may not dominate, but just as we hope that JT will improve. We can also hope that Ike can improve as well. Finally, we’re not talking about a break the bank contract here.
We will need someone, who?, will best be determined after our #1 pick.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Quincy Douby also looked great in practice.
As did Kenny Thomas for a the first few years he was here. Practice is a very small measuring stick unless he’s like AI and doesn’t go to it. There are measurable things like work ethic but I don’t think that Diogu, a guy looking for a contract is going to give a true representation of his commitment level over a 30 game stretch. So again, we are looking at a small sample size.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
Diogu has taken two career 3 pointers, hitting one
Small sample size.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 18, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And, I'm not saying I want him too.
It’s a skill set, being able to shoot well. From long , mid range, & the FT line, it’s just a example of his stroke. And, from what I’ve seen it’s as good as JT’s.
I appreciate you pointing out the weak points in my arguement, but if that’s the only one, it doesn’t change the way I feel. In my reply to JJ, I mentioned the comments made by BJax concerning Ike. One thing I failed to mention, is that with the pressure of fighting for his NBA life, Ike brought his practice game to the real game. Unlike, QD who couldn’t perform in game situations, Ike did. And, I give him creds for that no matter who the competition was.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
(sample) Size matters
and perhaps Diogu is suffering from sample envy but two games of extreme goodness – not one game of 30/10 but two in a row?! – that is too hard to ignore. Do the Kings sign him to a Jerome James NY Knicks contract? of course not. I find it hard to believe that this guy isn’t worth $2-2.5M/year and that he wouldn’t jump at the chance to get that and play for a team that he can get off the bench.
If he doesn’t take the offer: send in
to break his Jacuzzi
by betweentheeyes on Apr 18, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Read everything that I have thread-posted regarding Diogu
As I have never said that I don’t want him here, or that the Kings couldn’t use him, I am not against having him here. What I have said and will say is that:
- I wouldn’t want to pay much for a guy that scored more points in the last two games of the season than he had all year.
- Quincy Douby was known to kill it in practice, and he also had a couple of nice games along the line (and it wasn’t at the tail end of his 4th year).
- If the Kings draft a big guy early, Diogu’s minutes would be at the expense of JT/Hawes/the rookie pick.
- After all of that is said and done, if you can get him for a couple of million next year, great. I’m not all that warm over giving him two years and sucking up any more 2010 money than is absolutely needed.
And 1 – Within a week of all of the deadline trades, there were posts that intimated that we should retain McCants, and some went as far as to suggest that we deal Martin and start McCants. McCants cooled and so did the idea of retaining him. While I am intrigued by the last two games that Diogu put in, it does not explain the rest of his first four years. Unlike Gerald Wallace, Diogu was given chances early in his career, but he could not cash them in. I think that Diogu could still have a reasonable NBA career. But is he where the Kings should be investing their money? I have my doubts.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 18, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I do read everything that you thread post -
but it is your pictures that I like the best!
and I fully agree with what you say here. I have the same apprehension, I just feel a small monetary commitment for Diogu is reasonable, and that with the draft picks and signed players, the Kings have to necessarily fill their roster. D-League and Summer League acquisitions should do nicely, but it would be nice to have Diogu, a more proven player, than just another warm body, particularly since one of the warm bodies will be on the bench until his contract is eventually shopped successfully.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 19, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
You have been very clear as to where you stand
And, I believe we had a similar discussion concerning Sheldon, late preseason. And, of course, you were correct then. You hit 2 key points here,
If the Kings draft a big guy early
And,
I’m not all that warm over giving him two years and sucking up any more 2010 money than is absolutely needed.
I feel the same. I believe Ike is worth more as the 3rd big, but only worth Vet Min as the 4th big. Also, until he’s proved himself on a more consistant basis, I’m not as willing to give him a longer contract. And, that’s why I have been consistant in my belief, that if we Don’t get a big guy early, and were looking for a 3rd big, it might be worth offering Ike the QO.
With the QO Ike remains a restricted FA, and as such we have the right of 1st refusal. Plus the QO is for one year, and at a lower total cost than the 2yr contract totaling $4.5-$5M.
Yes, he only did it in 2 games, and I wasn’t there at the practices to see how he performed. So, I can’t say for certain that he’s worth any offer at all. But, than it’s not my job so you don’t have to worry. The people that have seen him in practice will be making the decision.
All I can do is say that I liked the skills he showed and I wish that JT comes back next year with some of the same skills. And, if the FO wants to make him an offer, I wouldn’t be upset if it was for the QO, to keep him a RFA.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I disagree about G-Dub
And retaining Ike, but that’s me.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
In this draft
I think Hawes would be at worst the #3 pick, and that is assuming Rubio is in the draft.
You can make a stretch of a case he’d be the #1 pick, if Griffin in the camps is “undersized” a GM could make a reasonable case for Hawes’ skill set over Griffin’s, if they thought Griffin wouldn’t translate to the NBA because he was too short.
All of that said, I agree with most of your post and if we have the opportunity to take Griffin, the only reason not to is if GP thinks Rubio will be a better pro. We shouldn’t pass on Griffin because of JT & Hawes.
The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give…Howard Cosell
Hawes has had three injuries to the same knee;
two of them requiring surgery.
I’m pretty sure most NBA GM’s would take that into consideration if he were hypothetically coming back into the draft this year. Not to mention that his defensive limitations and inability to keep opponents off the glass were exposed pretty seriously this season.
Hey, I love optimism, but to suggest that some NBA GM might prefer SHawes skill set over Griffin, or that Hawes would be the #1 guy in the 2009 draft is beyond wishful thinking, ForThree. C’mon man, you don’t really believe that…
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
I concur MM
We’re a little too in love with the few decent pieces we have.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 19, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Good to hear the voice of reason...
It’s an understandable sin, but we definitely have a tendency here at Sactown R to seriously overestimate the talent of the guys we have on this roster.
For all of his youth and upside as an offensive threat, Hawes is simply not very athletic and this will probably always leave him questionable at the defensive end.
And based on his history (including the end of this season) he’s also a fairly serious injury risk.
Thompson is a great kid, he has NBA level talent and more potential on defense, but he’ll never have the physical abilities of a Blake Griffin.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Really?
Thompson is a great kid, he has NBA level talent and more potential on defense, but he’ll never have the physical abilities of a Blake Griffin.
Remember that JT had a late growth spurt, he was already in college. Blake Griffin has a more prototypical “NBA body” right now. But since JT was a late bloomer, he has not fully plateaued in his physical development. I went through a major growth spurt my sophomore year of high school, and it was only in college that I fully adapted to my new size. If the growth spurt came at 19, is it unreasonable to assume that a 22- or 23-year-old could still be developing? JT needs to add some bulk this offseason, much like many NB rookies need to.
I think this entire post was a bit of a swing and a miss. The message here should have been about balancing expectations. Not just for JT and Hawes, but also for Griffin, Diogu, and everyone else. That’s where this debate and discussion should be. We don’t know if Griffin would be any better than Shock and Hawes. I’m not saying he wouldn’t be, not saying he will be. I’m saying we don’t know. The uncertainty is what makes us enjoy being fans. Without unknown potential we’d be miserable.
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
Yes, really
at least that’s what virtually every NBA scout and GM would tell you.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
This is what I never seem to understand MM
and not really from you, of course, but from everyone here and around the league. When is it truly ok to like our players?? I asked the same question in my post up there, but because you mention it again I will ask again. How do you know we are overstimating and not understimating??
We watch this team and its player so much that we pretty much know every aspect of their game. As much as we like them, we also know their limitations so most (if not every) opinions are written with that in mind. Yes, we are excited about the future of these two kids, but I’m no hearing anyone saying they will be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Hell, we have compared Hawes to Vlade and some of us would be happy with that.
Something I’ve been thinking for quite a while is the way we view our players’ game. Sometimes it just seems like some here want every player to be well rounded and excel at everything they need to do. Let me give an example: JT needs to improve his footwork, foul less, and use his left hand. That’s good, he does need to work on those things. But he also needs to work on his midrange shot, and more post up moves, and of course his defense. That’s 6 things I mentioned (and there are probably more). So my point is that we want this kid to be good at a lot, maybe everything (a bit of an exaggeration on my part) and that just isn’t realistic.
We don’t need every player on ths team to be good at every aspect of the game. They could be average on some as long as they excel on others. That’s how you build a team, right? You need scorers, rebounders, catch-and-shoot guys, set up guys, amd energy off the bench. I think it comes down to having a system in place where players know what they are expected to do; we need them to know their role and try to do the best job possible for their respective roles. That’s why I’m putting so much importance on the new coach next year. Once they know what they need to do on the floor to help the team win, they can concentrate on those things and work hard at improving those aspects of their game.
by eduardo_m7 on Apr 19, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
now THAT is the voice of reason
rec’d, nice post E7.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 19, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
We need a 'Star' caliber player
added to this roster. I look at SHawes and JT and I see ‘very good’.
Hopefully we’ll get lucky.
(Or hopefully I’m wrong)
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 19, 2009 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what you want to get with a top 5 pick
and that’s why every title winner has a top 5 pick on it.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 19, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Dammit!
I knew that we should have kept Shelden!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 19, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
well they need to be a "star" caliber top 5 pick
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 19, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
There's always a catch
Let’s blame it on Stern.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
by section214 on Apr 19, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or the Jews
That’s always a favorite with me.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
OK, guys, fine...
but to me this is just rose-colored glasses stuff. The reality is we suck. And the big ugly reason that we just suffered through 60 odd losses is that we have a serious lack of big time basketball talent on the roster.
I’m not trying to be a buzzkill and obviously you can think whatever ever you want, or speculate about late growth spurts or whatever, but you’re kidding yourself if you actually believe that there’s a single NBA GM out there who would take Spencer Hawes or Jason Thompson in a trade for Blake Griffin.
There’s a reason why our two bigs were late lottery picks and Griffin is about to become the #1 overall pick in the draft. It’s the same reason Blake Griffin absolutely dominated the NCAA this year, and it’s what all those trained NBA scouts see in Griffin that you are discounting when you compare him to our two local favorites: raw athleticism, overwhelming physical strength, agility, the ability to finish at the rim and draw fouls, ball handling ability, and so on and so on.
Again, Thompson and Hawes are nice players. Or, they will be if and when they develop further (that is, all the items eduardo outlines above). But it’s virtually unimaginable that either will ever be a dominant NBA player. They just don’t have the physical tools. Especially Hawes, who is relatively un-athletic, not quick or mobile on defense and has a bad knee. And though I like JT, if he blossoms into a truly great NBA player he will certainly have fooled all the experts.
Check out the teams going at it in the playoffs right now. Guys, we are soooo far away from that it’s not even funny. Let’s be honest. The Utah Jazz are about to go four games and out, yet with players like Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Andrei Kirilinko, etc. they would beat the Kings 8 games out of 10.
Bottom line: We are in the toilet. If we want to do more than just crawl off the absolute junkheap of this league, i.e. if we want to seriously compete for the NBA title, we need an infusion of talent. And lot’s of it. We need at least three or four studs who can match up with virtually any opponent, and in that group we need at least one or two dominant stars who can impose their will on the other team. And then of course we will need to get all that horsepower pulling in the same direction. Think C-Webb, Peja, Vlade, Bibby, Christie and Bobby.
It’s going to take at least one or two more years of rebuilding to even dream about an NBA Championship banner at Arco. The player we get in this draft needs to be has to good not for a base on balls or a double but an absolute out-of-the-park home run.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
sorry, eduardo
but I think that big heap of losses the KIngs just racked up tells us that we are seriously overestimating the talent currently on the roster.
I hear what you’re saying but let me ask you this: never mind Hall of Famers like Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan. Do you think JT has real good odds of reaching the level of say a Pau Gasol? A Chris Bosh? Man, I don’t. He’s on track to become a good solid player. He seems like a smart kid, he’s got some skill, heck, maybe he’ll even make an All-Star team or two before he’s done. But we need a hell of a lot more than that at least somewhere on this roster.
As for Hawes. If anybody seriously compares him to Vlade they should have their temperature taken. Vlade Divac was one of the dozen or so best centers in the NBA in the past 15 to twenty years. He was a basketball prodigy in Europe, and along with the tremendous footwork and the ability to create his own shot and nail it from the outside Vlade was also very strong, very quick, an extraordinary passer, dangerous around the basket, had incredible court awareness and he was durable over a 16 year NBA career. That’s why his jersey is up in the rafters.
If Spencer Hawes retires with half the numbers that Vlade put up… I will learn to speak Serbian
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Actually
… Comparing Hawes first 2 campaigns over Vlade’s. Hawes more than matches up with Divac, particularly on the ball handling. Hawes has more assists, better A/TO ration and is a much more prolific 3 pt shooter
It’s defensively that Vlade shows a marked difference – rebound, steals and blocks.
Can Hawes become as good as Vlade … it’s not that much of stretch. Especially considering that he’s a couple of years younger than Vlade at this point in his development.
More than a few yrs. Vlade was probably 30 when he came to the NBA
I don’t see how you can critisize Spencer for his athleticism and then over look Vlade’s lack of it. I’ll take Hawes’ vertical and shot blocking over Vlade. The only thing that will keep Hawes from being a special center is the health of his knees.
And, since when is a all-star center a prerecquisite to a playoff team. How’s it working out for Spurs so far? Chicago’s up 1 with Noah & Miller. Miami traded for JO, & how did that workout against Atlanta. When the KIngs are ready to contend JT & Spencer will be ready. Getting Griffin will make the Kings better right away, but getting a PG will make JT & Spencer better right away.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Apr 20, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you serious
about the Spurs comment, Tops?
You’ll have to take it up with pookey about what position Tim Duncan plays, but I know one thing… dude wears three NBA Championship rings. I think the Spurs proved quite conclusively some years ago what an exceptional big man can do for a franchise.
But I’m not asking for a miracle like Tim Duncan. Sure let’s talk about the Bulls situation. I’m on record as saying this before so I’ll repeat it: Spencer Hawes will not have as good an NBA career as either Brad Miller or Joakim Noah. If I thought he was as good as as a young Brad Miller or that he could do what Noah is doing in the on the court in his series (17 rebounds, 3 blocked shots vs the Celtics in Game 1!!) I wouldn’t even have chimed in here.
OK, I’m gonna sign off now. I think all of this “Hawes is every bit the player Vlade was” chatter is making me dizzy.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Duncan is a PF
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
See, HighTops?
I told you that you’d have to deal with pookey if you start referring to Tim Duncan as a center! ;>)
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Well Hawes has 3 years to get to where Noah is today
because that’s how much older Noah is.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 20, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Noah is 10 months older than Dwight Howard
for a little perspective. 2/25/85 to 12/8/85
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 20, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing is...
he won’t get to where Noah is because Joakim is a different kind of player than SHawes.
Noah doesn’t need the ball to help make things happen for the Bulls. He’s more athletic than Hawes, he rebounds like crazy, he runs the floor extremely well, he causes problems for opposing players on defense. When he does take a shot it’s often a put-back.
Yes, Noah is older than Spencer but both players are still developing. Joakim significantly improved his play over the second half of this season, and he was very impressive in his first ever playoff game against the Celtics.
Obviously, Hawes had some shining moments this year too, and I do think he’ll be a pretty darn good offensive big man in the NBA if he stays healthy, but I just don’t see how he can make up for a lot of his defensive liabilities.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
Hawes vs. Noah per 36 minutes
Hawes = 14 pts., 9 rebs., 1.5 blks., 2.5 asts.
Noah = 10 pts., 11 rebs., 2 blks., 2 asts.
Pretty close. And it’s fair to say that neither of these guys gets a whole lot of offensive sets run for them these days.
Spencer can legally buy his first alcoholic beverage a week from tomorrow. Happy birthday, Spence!
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
If they are so different
he won’t get to where Noah is because Joakim is a different kind of player than SHawes.
Why compare them?
and this may be true:
both players are still developing
but Noah at 24 is much closer to his physical peak than Spencer at <21.
Noah was 22/23 his rookie season, so let’s compare Spencer’s numbers not next season, when he’ll be 21/22, but the season after that one to Noah’s rookie season, and then we can talk.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 20, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow! are we really comparing Spencer Hawes to Joakim Noah?
How about Dirk Nowitzki and Amare Stoudamire?
I believe the original comment was whether or not hometown fans over reach in their positive assesment of hometown players.
They do. Parents think their kids are smarter and better looking than they are, Dog lovers on how obediant their pets are. Interestingly, as much as we love our players and forgive them their indiscretions, we bend, fold and mutilate our expectations of this team, and any sorry ass outcast who wants to pretend to make a difference coaching them.
If we can’t love our players – and we don’t the love the team’s performance, nor coaching and management’s job – what else is there?
If all you can do is ceaselessly expound about how Spencer sucks and is at best mediocre with little hope for progress (at age 20 no less) and that JT can only hope to be a partially important role player at some future point in his career, than please, keep it to your self – your expertise is best left in your mondo expert brain, and if you had any sense, you would know that. Better yet, go back to Sacbee.com/Sports where misery thrives, hope is mocked and no too depracating a term is wielded without glee.
by betweentheeyes on Apr 20, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
"Keep it to myself?"
why, because what I’m writing doesn’t make you feel great about the Kings?
Thanks for the suggestion but I’ve been posting my perspective around here from just about the beginning and I’ll continue to do so, your uncalled for insults or not.
Look, if you prefer to read about how Hawes is on track to be the next Vlade Divac and Jason Thompson is a better bet than Blake Griffin, fine. There’s plenty of that kind of wishful thinking around here, despite the 65 losses we suffered through.
Which reminds me. I got lambasted around certain quarters of Sactown last summer when I offered that we were probably in for a very rough season. Some of you (you know who you are) howled when I said that after Brad was traded the wheels could come off and we might win as few as 20 games. Ha! Turns out I was being an optimist after all!
You know what, betweentheeyes? I freakin love the Sacramento KIngs. I want them to succeed. I want them to smack down the Lakers in the West, move on and bring a championship parade down J Street.
Show me where I ever said “Spencer sucks”. I’ve complimented Hawes and to a larger degree JT when I thought their progress merited it. I have said that Hawes’ limitations on defense will likely make for some serious problems for this team going forward. When proven otherwise I’ll retract that opinion.
Meanwhile I’m in agreement with this fanpost.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
I applaud your passion
and it is perhaps something we share but express differently.
I am perhaps overly sensitive with what I refer to as the Sacbee.com/Sports commenter. You have too much intelligence to warrant such comparisons. Please accept my apology. Truly, I meant no insult to you or anyone pn this website, which allows Kings fans to indulge their opinions upon the rest of us.
You don’t need my acceptance to opine. I welcome your disagreement, and look forward to more of the same. Even if you are wrong….(just kidding on that part)
by betweentheeyes on Apr 20, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for that, betweentheeyes;
I respect your passion about the team too, and I know you and I have agreed on a lot of Kings issues in the past. For example, we’ve both written about the critical need to pump up the rebounding defense and energy on the court.
Anyway, apology accepted. Actually, considering what a rough time we all had this season it’s pretty amazing us fired-up Sactown residents didn’t snipe at each other all that much…
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
very true
too many days this season doing this:
let’s all enjoy 40 games in 40 nights and look forward to the time when the Kings are in the post-season… 3 years from now???
by betweentheeyes on Apr 21, 2009 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll snipe at you Sactown residents
Probably helps I’m not one….
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Internet went down, sorry for the delay
We’re talking about Centers, and I tried to point out that the Spurs lost with Duncan at center, the Magic lost with Howard, & Chicago won with Noah. Center’s are usually the deciding factor when it comes to winning championships, only one piece.]
As far as Spencer goes, time will tell. But, I’ll stick with my assessment. He’s more athletic than most people give he credit for being, And, more athletic than is needed by a good center. He has a good skill set, and only needs time to mature. With a desent coach and PG, he will be a 20/10/4 center next year, So, let it be written, so let it be done. ( that’s for you Section)
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I believe that too HT
And I did not believe that after his rookie season either. I’ve also spent a lot of time getting in a pissing contest with Jae of GSoM over it too. (A shock I know. Some good points did emerge from his end though. Nothing new from me however.)
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I am in the minority I think
When I say I think SHawes has more upside than JT. I actually think there’s a good chance he makes a few All-Star teams – IF he gets a lot stronger.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 21, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok - maybe not in the minority on Hawes
(but the jury still very much out)
but I’ll repeat that I think History shows that a dominant interior player (PF or C) has almost without exception been necessary to go far in the playoffs, let alone truly contend for a title. Why? Because the teams you’re playing will at some point have a dominant interior player. Easy buckets when jump shots aren’t falling. Toughness. You have to be capable of going toe-to-toe with that for multiple games in a playoff series.
A good team can overcome some other weaknesses, but play at the rim has not been one of them.
Hawes and JT may or may not become occasional AllStars, but I believe thats the most (hey – a lot!) they can reach for. They just don’t have the tools to be dominant, to take over in crunch time. (Now, add BG to that mix, hmmmmm)
Yes, its more important than a ‘Star’ quality PG, though there’s no doubt in my mind that they are the two most important players to find. I say players because that interior force can sometimes come from the C position as well as the PF and if you get lucky you find a MJ or LaBron or Dwade or Kobe who greatly reduce the need for a good PG.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 21, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I don't live in Sacramento County either.
I was referring to the name of this site.
"When the going gets Weird, the Weird turn professional."
(Hunter Thompson)
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