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The Case Against the Collegiates

I had an intriguing thought the other night while watching the Bulls-Celtics series.  A few years ago there was a lot of talk about the "smart" teams who were drafting players who had been successful in college for successful programs.  As we look back at players now, it seems that there is almost no correlation at all between a successful NCAA program and a successful transition to the NBA.  This seems counterintuitive, but I think it warrants further review.

 

Star-divide

The two teams that stand out to me as prime examples are Chicago and Charlotte.  The arguments I'm about to make might be easy to reject based on the premise that perhaps the GMs were just terrible drafters.  For the sake of this argument please hold those objections.  I'll see if I can address them later.

Chicago began drafting players with the "successful NCAA program" pedigree a few seasons back.  Well, let me qualify what I mean when I say they "began" this.  Draft trends are cyclical.  For a while it was high schoolers.  There have been trends of drafting freak athletes (Atlanta comes to mind with their love of SFs), players with height regardless of skill (looking at you, Seattle), or falling in love with Euros (hi there, Chad Ford).  All of these trends come in and out of favor, and we'll surely see some of these trends return.  So, while the Bulls obviously have drafted players from successful programs in the past (some kid named Jordan out of UNC), there was a recognizeable shift in drafting philosophy a few years ago.

Chicago drafted guys like Ben Gordon from UConn and Joakim Noah from Florida (during a temporary rise in prominance).  They did this in response to the sense of having failed at drafting young guys with a lot of potential (Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler left Chicago branded as busts).  Tyrus Thomas came from LSU after a semi-successful tournament run.  Kirk Hinrich came from the history-rich Kansas.  Luol Deng came from Duke.

Now, I know what you're thinking.  You're thinking that Chicago is the 7 seed in the East, so obviously this strategy worked!  Memphis had even risen to prominance under Calipari by the time they took Rose #1.  And you'd be right.  On the surface, this strategy has worked.  But was it because they took athletes from successful programs?  Rose is an incredible athlete, and Chicago lucked into that #1 pick.  Noah has largely been viewed as a disappointment, but provides a lot of energy.  Thomas has been a bit of a head case and has had discipline issues, but he's talented.  Ben Gordon is lightning in a bottle when he gets his shot going.  But let's put this to the ultimate test: how many of these guys are going to be on a Chicago team that eventually wins a title.  If Chicago wins a title with any of these players, it will be Rose and Deng.  Anyone else I've listed will be a secondary player.  They will not be the catalyst.  For as many high picks as these players represent, that's a below average rate of return.

Let us now take a look at our other prime example, Charlotte.  Notable players from notable programs include Emeka Okafor from UConn, Sean May and Raymond Felton from UNC, and even though he's no longer with the team we can include Adam Morrison from Gonzaga.  I suppose you could also include D.J. Augustin from Texas, but I think it's too early to pass any judgement on him either way. 

Okafor has been serviceable when healthy.  May was considered a reach at the time of the draft and has continued to disappoint.  Felton got mentally destroyed by Larry Brown.  And we know that Morrison has done absolutely nothing.  Personally I feel liked the Bobcats fall under the "bad drafters" category, but still the evidence persists.

For as many high draft picks as these teams have had over the past several years, they have very little to show for it.  Both of these teams are a very long way from a championship still.  And very few of their players from well-established NCAA programs will ever be a key part of either of these teams ever being able to win a championship.

Now at this point you're probably thinking, "Great, but why didn't you post this over at Blog-a-Bull or Rufus on Fire?"  Well my friends, I'm about to bring it back to the Kings.  To paraphrase the old saying, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. 

To me, it seems that some of the most successful college players came from programs that were ok, but became elevated by one or two key players.  Notable I'm thinking of Carmelo Anthony at Syracuse, Durant and Augustin at Texas, Oden at Ohio State, or even a guy like Jameer Nelson at St. Joe's.  Beasley at K-State might fall under this category someday, but I'd be surprised.  That's just personal bias though, the guy never impressed me.

As much as I've campaigned against Griffin, this is honestly the best arguement I've found in his favor.  Don't get your panties in a bunch, I know all about his numbers and stats and that his dunks get him on Sportscenter.  But the best thing I can see is that he elevated OU to a new level.  Thabeet would fall under the "established program" category. 

Why does this pattern seem to exist?  I have a theory.  If you're good enough to get offers from a lot of colleges, but not good enough to be a top-tier player, where would you want to go?  Somewhere where you'd have a chance to win a championship, probably.  So you're looking at the big programs.  An established programs has brand recognition in its name alone.  So places like UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. are going to have a better supporting cast around their stars.  A truly elite player will stand out at the college level even without a supporting cast.

Please do not confuse this as an endorsement of Blake Griffin, per se.  This is simply an observation I had and wanted to explore further.  Something we can all consider as we look at draft prospects both for our first pick, as well as Houston pick and our second-rounder.

More than anything, I want to hear about the examples I forgot.  Examples that either support or disprove my theory.  Let's talk, argue, debate, name-call, and all the other these we do so well.  What are your thoughts?

(This is a FanPost from a member of the Sactown Royalty community. The views expressed come from the member, and not Sactown Royalty staff.)

Comment 67 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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How might this refer to Jason Thompson?

Possibly an argument pro his career at Rider rather than against?

by KingsFanfromCentralEurope on Apr 24, 2009 1:20 PM PDT reply actions  

I would agree

He would fall under the category of a player elevating an obscure program. However I don’t think he’s the strongest example since Rider didn’t rise to prominance in the same way that some of my other examples did.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 24, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which is probably why

JT isn’t the key piece to elevating us to a championship. You listed only Rose and Deng being able to lift the Bulls to a ring and the others following as second-tier players. I love JT but I don’t see him as being the “first-tier” type player that will lead us to a championship.

when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??

by diehardkingsfan5 on Apr 24, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't take it personal

but I gotta use what you just said to make a point.

Has anyone said that JT is a “first tier type player that will lead us to a championship”?? Just like some people get tired of our admiration for our young bigs, I’m getting tired of other assuming stuff no one has ever written before. Anyone corect me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall anyone writing in this blog that Shock and Hawes will lead us to a championship.

Could they be pieces of the puzzle?? Sure, I believe they could. But no one here is saying that they are going to all of a sudden become star players. Personally, I just want to make sure people get it right…

by eduardo_m7 on Apr 24, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it was written

here

… Shock and Hawes will lead us to a championship.

strangely enough by you! ;p

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 24, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kfan - nothing gets by you

nothing

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 24, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank, I think

But it was a total joke post. Click the link. I clipped the quote from the post I responded to.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 24, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

He files that stuff away somewhere

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Apr 25, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like it

Because I think it unintentionally reflects the irrelevance of player comparisons based on generalizations (NCAA being better competition than Euro leagues, great programs like Duke being better at teaching players). In truth, there are a whole range of potential sub-categories that can elevate a player’s stock, or could predict their end-effect in the NBA. While quality programs were emphasized as “warning flag” in this piece, I think the underlying point is that different people could just as easily determine that Blake Griffin isn’t as valuable because he isn’t part of one of these programs, as they could determine that he is more valuable because he wasn’t.

You’re point most definitely has merit, and similarly, the point that NCAA players have had more success in the NBA has merit as well. While both are applicable in assessing the future relevance of the player, neither are more relevant than the tangible skills and attributes the player has, and has put into action, on the court. The rest is just icing.

Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.

by CAB on Apr 24, 2009 2:02 PM PDT reply actions  

The best player from Duke...

…has to be Grant Hill. Both @ Duke, and in the NBA.

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 24, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Boozer is starting

to make an argument against Hill.

when will the Kenny Thomas Reign of Terror end?!!??

by diehardkingsfan5 on Apr 24, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the NBA at least...

It’s a shame Hill’s doctors f’d up his career. He’ll be remembered in a completely different light because of it.

Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.

by CAB on Apr 24, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another awesome post G

You must walk around thinking about basketball and the Kings all day. Do you find yourself bumping into things?
Well thought out. I understand exactly what you mean. I’m not sure I’d write off Chicago just yet. Rose may be the piece that elevates the team to the next level, I’d hate to think it’s Brad and John Salmons, but I think that in a few years they are going to be competing for a conference final.

I loved the way you qualified you post as not an endorsement of Griffin. After all the heated arguments of Griffin vs. Rubio I think we are all walking carefully around the subject so as not to set off anymore rancorous discussions.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 24, 2009 3:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah

I pretty much think about basketball all day. I run into things often, but I’m not convinced that the two are related, I think I’m just a klutz.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 24, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is why I love STR.

People like me who are absorbed by the Kings and their possibilities for improvement.

by mayfieldcol on Apr 24, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

or The Wake Forest Method.

Great ‘get the wheels turning’ post.

My mostly unnecessary thoughts:

1) It seems like this is best as a Blake Griffin endorsement, disclaimer notwithstanding.

2) As my subject line suggests, what I immediately think of is the Deamon Deacons, who are really good or great every so often, ie when they have a great player elevate their program. Of course, Duncan and Paul……….and Teague?

3) Any team with a narrow focus or philosophy will not succeed in basketball. CAB makes a great point about generalizations. If, in fact, any organization operates on that narrow a point of view, that in itself probably guarantees that it doesn’t have a championship in its future.

4) I will say that just because a player drafted is no longer on a team at the time it reaches its heights, that does not mean that that player/draft pick didn’t contribute in its way to reaching those heights. Using your Chicago example, Hinrich and/or Gordon trades could become the final pieces. If so, those picks and what they later provided in trade were solid investments toward a championship. I hope that never becomes the case in Chicago, just to say.

5) I wonder if this is more true in basketball than in the other major sports, and perhaps because of sheer numbers. I think maybe a baseball or hockey organization might be able to succeed using this method of adding talent in a way that basketball could not. Football? Gotta think about that. No, don’t gotta.

by left hand on Apr 24, 2009 3:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Or maybe

Teague will turn out to be as good a pro as Randolph Childress…

by corbin on Apr 24, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm a little disappointed that this wasn't put to music

Otherwise, stellar post.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 24, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions  

I aim to please

You’ll actually find that I designed this post you can read it in perfect sync with Beethoven’s 5th Symphony.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 24, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, yeah!

I’m hearing it now! it’s beautiful!

by left hand on Apr 24, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're beginning to scare me

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 24, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 24, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

The program, the coach, the supporting cast , or the hype?

Interesting discussion. Especially, if you take into consideration Section214’s excellent thread about the All-Stars in the playoffs.

Certainly, there are exceptional players coming out of the college basketball power houses. But, the point that the supporting cast being better than at lesser know programs, may make some players look better than they really are, would explain some of the better known disappointments. Or, because of the success early in their career, due mostly to the coach or system or overall talent, they are encouraged (incorrectly) to leave college before they’re ready.

Certainly, for every Sheldon Williams there is going to be a Scotty Pippen. But, Blake Griffin really doesn’t fall into either catagory. He was recruited by the college BB power houses, so he wasn’t a late developer or an unknown. His father was a coach, and he chose to play for his home state with his brother. He preformed well because he had the talent and his coach developed the team around his star.

But, the question is the same whether the kid comes out of UNC or UNLV, does his game translate into an NBA offense. And, more specificly, in to OUR NBA offense. The failure is never due to the player, but to the people drafting the player and the people utilizing the player, the NBA coaches. It kind of begs to ask the question, "How many players, reach their full potential after they are traded from the team that drafted them?’.

"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom

by HighTops on Apr 24, 2009 4:13 PM PDT reply actions  

You got that right High Tops

I wonder if you you weren’t old and tired like me and you went back and looked at the All Starp players high school bio what you would find? I googled Blake and got this from SoonerSports.com:

“The sixth McDonald’s All-America signee in OU history … Won the Powerade Jam Fest dunk contest during McDonald’s All-America week … Chose Oklahoma over Connecticut, Duke, Florida, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan State, North Carolina and Oklahoma State.” He was recruited by almost every bball powerhouse college before his brother talked him to OU.

It would be interesting to investigate and see how many of the current all stars were McDonald’s All Americans or equivalent in high school? I don’t think that the all stars are groomed or brought to collegiate star status by a coach, program or team mates. Maybe I will and go back and check out their high school records of the all stars playing in the playoffs but I’m betting that in almost all cases their skill and talent was identified in high school and they were either McDonald’s All Americans, Jordan Brands Tournament invitees, EA sports first/second team etc..

So my point is that most of the all stars were heavily scouted in high school, maybe earlier and before they played their first collegiate game were already on top 100 prospect lists of NBA scouts or sites like DX. It’s not the coaches or programs that turn the elite young players into successful players at the pro level. Since these days, the majority of players entered in the draft are freshman at most all the college coaches can do is to refine their skills a bit in the year they have them, most of these kids get to the NBA with the skills they were born with. Nurture or Nature? I’m guessing it’s almost always Nature.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 24, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I read somewhere that its a huge percentage

(I think – it was a few years ago. I’m on vacation, maybe I’ll look it up when I get back if no one does first)

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Apr 25, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're on vacation--that explains the lack of comments

Enjoy it. The dysfunction, dementia, and bitterness will always be here when you get back.

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 25, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Back in St. Louis

Met up with two of my brothers catching the Cards-Cubs series. Too much boozing

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on Apr 25, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

and, to continue,

shape and color. Four year players at major powers (Laettner?), four year players and non-powers (Olowokandi!), high school players (obsolete category), Euro’s.

Furthermore, it is at least as often the failure or incapacity of the players as it is the coach/system. At least as often, in my estimation, a player reaches his full potential after his first contract/organization because that’s when he finally started to mature or get it or submit to it.

by left hand on Apr 24, 2009 4:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Great stuff

Couple of players from my alma mater too support your theory.

Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd both elevated Cal Basketball and turned into pretty good pros. ’Reef would support your theory too.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 24, 2009 4:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Might be worth adding Kenny Smith out of UNC

taken one spot ahead of KJ to the Big Program side too. And, yep. I’ll never let that Kings pick go. Still pisses me off.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 24, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

good years to be an alum

what year did you graduate? 1978 for me.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 25, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

'88 here.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're not only a Korean

You’re old too? Sheesh!

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 25, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry

we can’t all be Starbuck’s Latte drinking kids.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tully's Tea Drinking^

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 25, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

No

If I’m an old Korean, you’re a Starbuck’s Latte drinking kid.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Starbucks is lame

Tully’s has free Wi-Fi. I win!

Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Apr 25, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Starbucks is lame

and so are you! I win!

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're both Lame

and I capitalized Lame. I win.

by Aykis16 on Apr 25, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

pup

no wonder our posts during game threads mirror so often. We were influenced by the same evil empire. My little bro graduated in 88. I remember walking into my first biology class.1200 kids in a theater. I started smoking that day Of course I had only quit smoking for a month.

Another vote for: The Case against the Colligiates.

Pook, he’s not old, I am. He’s just comfortably middle aged which is a great place to be, best of both worlds. Unless Kfan is 46, if he’s 46 he’s on the cusp of a downhill hill slide, a black diamond run.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 25, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great place to go to school

have nothing bad to say about my time there, and I still have a couple years before I start that downhill slide.

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stanford Sucks

Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott

by Kfan in Korea on Apr 25, 2009 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Geez

Someone needs to do a breakdown of G’s average rec rate divided by the number of posts he writes. He might be more efficient than Ziller and Section. ;)

Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.

by CAB on Apr 24, 2009 5:14 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

lol

That’s just cause their stuff is already on the front page and doesn’t need to be rec’d. The are still the “site masters”, and I am but the apprentice.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 24, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Might be more efficient?

It’s not even close, at least compared to me. I’m a high assist, high turnover guy. G’s money.

SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!

by section214 on Apr 24, 2009 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

Okafor has been just “serviceable”?

Three players in the NBA have averaged double-doubles the past five seasons … Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, and Emeka Okafor.

Felton has been “mentally destroyed” by Larry Brown?

Clearly, you have not seen many Bobcats game. Brown has said he loves what Felton brings to the table, and Felton has let-it-be-known that he wants to stay in Charlotte, and has even hinted about taking a home-team discount to do so.

May, is a different story. When healthy two years ago, he average 12 ppg, 7 rpg, 2 apg, and shot 50 percent from the field. All this in only 24 minutes a game. If not for his injuries, and to some extent, lack of conditioning, he would have been a steal for the 13th pick. No question he has had problems this season, but Brown and Jordan realize how talented he is, and do not want to lose him for nothing.

Morrison was a bust … plain and simple.

by Rooshil on Apr 25, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions  

Going out on a limb here

Bobcats fan?

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 25, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually G I was thinking posting about Okafor and Felton, you didn't have it quite right, but ultimately didn't feel it was worth the effort

Thanks for the clarification Rooshil

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 25, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

not sure i completely agree with your examples

It’s hard for me to accept your examples of players without examining the context.
Ttake Chicago, for example.

Noah is a very good rebounder and is quite active on defense — why he is viewed as disappointing by many, I can’t understand. I could see this guy starting for a title team.

Hinrich was also a great PG, a good floor general and great defender until injury and Chicago’s coaching debacle derailed him a while back. Then the Bulls drafted Rose, which further hampered Hinrich. Otherwise, the kid could easily start for a lot of good teams in this league, likely be an upgrade as well.

I dont see anything wrong with Ben Gordon either. Sure, you could say he should be doing more after being drafted 3rd….but that could be the mistake of Chicago’s management in drafting him as high as they did.

As for Charlotte, again you have to examine all the circumstances. Morrison is an obvious bust, no qualms there. But Okafor? Aside from injury, he’s been way more than serviceable; probably one of the better centers in the league. May, also killed by injury. Felton is another guy who was doing really well on a crappy team without good coaching.

But let’s put this to the ultimate test: how many of these guys are going to be on a Chicago team that eventually wins a title

I don’t think this is a fair question to assess a player’s worth. Until a team either grabs a superstar or one of its players becomes one, you could argue there are very few players in this league that look like they will every be part of a team that wins a title. Would’ve thought Bruce Bowen would be part of a title team? How bout Rasheed Wallace? Derek Fisher? Antoine Walker?

Now, all that being said, I believe the latter half of your post brings up a great point. If a guy can basically put his program on his back and carry them further than they should go, that should raise some heads. As much as it applies to Griffin, perhaps we should look a little closer at Stephen Curry, who did something similar last year?

by sactoreg on Apr 25, 2009 1:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Allow me to clarify

My point with guys like Hinrich, Noah, Gordon, et al. was not that they are bad players. My view is that they have underperformed based on expectations and where they were drafted.

Also, it’s not to say that these guys could never be part of a championship team. Obviously that would be ignorant, and I’m sorry that I did not choose my words more carefully. My idea was that they would not lead their teams to championships. My intention was to tie this back in to our top-4 pick this year, and the importance of finding not just a serviceable player, but a team leader. We need someone who will help lead this team to a championship.

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 25, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

G, please take Noah out of the argument

I believe it’s likely that in another couple of years he’s going to flirting with all star staus when people get hip to his game. This is only his second year. Give him the same lee way you want people to give to Spence.

 I don’t think Hinrich is per se great but he is very good although he is overpaid. We would be a much better team with Hinrich at the point. He is a classic pass first 1 with good size and d. Gordon is also a very good player, streaky shooter but that comes with the territory, he should have taken the money last year.

I posted in one of your posts that I see Chicago moving up to the second round next year and then going to the conference championships.

If as I suspect, Cleveland wins it all this year and then goes on to post a Jordan/Bulls domination in the association then there is going to be a lot of elite/super star players who never get the recognition they are due because they can never get past LB J, see the Mailman. I’m not saying that Jordan’s and Bron’s games are the same only that they are generational freaks that whose game eclipses all other players in the league and who take the spotlight away from other players who otherwise would be getting more love.

Give the Bulls a couple more years, I think most of these cats are gonna be there when they break out.

Good job of supporting your fanpost.

"We are in the business of kicking butt and business is very, very good." - Charles Barkley

by Bluejohn on Apr 25, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

Well done sir

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on Apr 26, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Mateen Cleaves

However, Mateen Cleaves is a perfect example of how great collegiate play can translate into awesome towel-waving play in the NBA.

by hungrydog on Apr 30, 2009 8:48 AM PDT reply actions  

Sooooo, uhhhhhh......

Anyone else get the feeling that someone in Chicago noticed this post, showing it to the team, and they were just like “F**k you, Ex G!”

Never forget: I am a complete idiot

by Exhibit G on May 1, 2009 7:08 AM PDT reply actions  

No one from other teams reads our blog right now

only the very bored

So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii

by lietothegirls on May 1, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

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