Kings Coach Straw Poll: April 9
by Tom Ziller on Apr 9, 2009 9:43 AM PDT
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PrintEvery few weeks until the Kings have a coach for 2009-10, we'll throw open a poll to find out who leads in the hearts and minds of Sacramento's fans. I'm trying to be as comprehensive as possible.
Explain your choice in the comments, especially if you pick other.
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i chose other
not one of those coaches hits me with “yes definitely let’s get that guy”. there are some good coaches, but no one that says to me “this is the coach who is going to change this franchise”.
i don’t have any answer or an alternative. but i know kenny natt isn’t the long term answer (and the players know that too).
the one “please god no, not him” on this list is whisenant. i mean, that would be like geno auriama going to the NBA. yes he won in the WNBA, but the players on this team needs a coach they will respect. and i am sorry to you WNBA fans, but no coach in that league will ever be successful in the NBA. not because they aren’t good coaches, they probably are, but reality is reality, and these are egotistical, sexist players in the NBA. whisenant would have a shorter tenure than musselman and theus if he were hired.
like i said above, this team needs a lot of things. i would start with a point guard and go from there.
www.myspace.com/cynemamusic.com
JVG
is my choice. EJ is a close second. And “other” (being Fratello, Mike) is third. The poblem with JVG and The Czar is that they are both broadcasters, they are able to stay around the game, without the grind of having to be on the sidelines and the pressure to win.
However, I think that any of those three coaches could help the culture of the Kings. They are all seasoned coaches. And EJ and Fratello have taken rosters that were young and not ready yet, to the playoffs and had some success. My only problem with EJ is that his teams stink-out-loud on the defensive side of the ball (he has been a head coach with a mind for offense and an offensive coordinator his whole career). And as i mentioned in my Fanpost, EJ had some talent and should have been maximizing it on the Defensive side of the ball in Washington. That is my only red-flag with EJ.
Fratello and JVG would both have to agree to and buy into the princeton offense. Again much like Doc Rivers has bought into the defensive strategy of T. Thibodeau.
Another option which I think we might explore is get a guy like EJ to be head coach (so we have some stability) and get a guy like Whiz for a defensive coordinator type position. Whiz would have a hard time undermining someone like EJ imo, and it would not seem like we were “grooming” Whiz for a headcoach job later. But he has to earn the respect of the players in the NBA and jumping from the WNBA to the NBA as a head coach would not be the best route for him. Let him learn the NBA game first. Just a thought.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Apr 9, 2009 10:15 AM PDT reply actions
EJ
He’d fit in, he’d bring stability. He’d clearly have GP’s support. He’s the only one I see being able to stick through 4 years plus. I think he could be as good as Adelman with the right system, right players. Add a defensive coordinator, sure. But EJ just makes sense.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Completely agree
Although I 100% feel that defense wins championships, you have to choose a coach that fits the players. We’re not trying to overhaul the roster — we already have a lot of main pieces in place. So it’s important to choose a head coach that can maximize their strengths
Bring Chris Bosh to California!!!
Exactly
Just because a head coach is not a defensive expert does not mean you can’t hire a defensive assistant. Bring back the Princeton!
Never forget: I am a complete idiot
But
Can’t you make the same argument for hiring a coach who isn’t an offensive expert and giving him an offensive assistant?
And wouldn’t that make even more sense, considering that we have the inventor of the Princeton O on staff and no defensive wiz who is happy to be an assistant in sight?
I’m not saying that GP should hire a defensive-minded coach that isn’t willing to share control of the offensive scheme with Carrill and/or a Princeton disciple. I’m just saying that the Kings defense, as it stands, needs to improve immensely and that nothing that I know about Eddie Jordan makes me think he’ll be able to achieve that.
by furious.d on Apr 9, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree almost word for word
get a defensive coach who’ll let Carill employ his offense. I think that is the answer; we already have an offensive mastermind, so complement that with a good defensive mastermind.
"Greed is the inventor of injustice as well as the current enforcer." - Julian Casablancas
How can you even compare EJ to Adelman?
You’re comparing a guy with a 45% regular season record and a 30% playoff record to guy a guy who has won over 50% of the playoff games he’s coached. One of only 4 coaches to win 60+ games with two teams. I don’t see anything to convince me that EJ will ever have those kinds of stats.
Yes, he coaches the Princeton. Big freaking deal. We know we can score points. I can keep the Kings scoring. That is not our problem. If all you needed was a defensive coordinator, any one of us could be a head coach. The Kings need a coach that will help us get back over .500. You can’t do that without defense. And I don’t see a coach with a 30% playoff win record and a sub 50% lifetime record pulling that off.
I don’t know if we can afford him, but I’d take Flip first. Avery second. And a couple of Pookey’s choices third.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
What am I missing?
Why are so many people so high on Eddie Jordan? In his full seasons, he had a bad year with Sac and a bad year and 4 mediocre years with Washington. Seriously, what am I not seeing?
Please consider the environment before reading this signature.
mediocre? His teams in Washington were always well prepared and played over their heads.
Plus under his watch Gilbert Arenas ascended to superstardom, Caron Butler to mere stardom, and DeShawn Stevenson went from the worst player in the NBA to a legit NBA starter
Plus our glory days were with the Princeton offense
that EJ runs as well, and well…we don’t exactly have the personnel for a defensive-minded team
and Rondo
this is a good point, but…KG covers so much damn ground, Rondo is very quick on the perimeter and Perkins bangs…give us those 3 and we could have something going, too.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Thats 3/5 of their starting lineup!
Out of our starting lineup we have exactly…..0 good defenders
But
before KG and Thibodeau that was not a good defensive team. KG holds the team accountable, but Thibodeau helps quite a bit. He might actually be an excellent choice as a head coach if he’s willing to teach his defense and play the Princeton offense
I know we don’t have great defensive players, but defense is about effort. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, two offensive players, have started to play decent defense.
www.mancancook.net
I agree, 1 good defensive player to set an example
and some decent coaching could make a big difference.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Mediocre
As in: An Eastern Conference team that can’t win more than 45 games with three all-star players is mediocre.
Mediocre.
my point is...
those guys weren’t playing on that level until they got there….so would they be all-stars without EJ? Also, the reason they haven’t won more than 45 games is injuries. That’s something EJ can’t coach. If you remember, the last time all 3 were healthy, they had the #1 record in the East.
To be honest I don’t know the virtues of each coach. I’ve only heard numerous times that EJ style is close to the Kings mentality.
All I know is that we are a rebuilding. Most of the players in the roster will either be very young or newcomers. That means we need chemistry and discipline to bond. These are the most important factors imo, the rest are secondary.
I picked EJ...
because I really love watching a fluid offense. I understand how everyone wants a more defensive minded coach since defense wins championships, but I am the polar opposite. I want an offensive minded coach because it makes the team so much more watchable. Crisp passing, back-door cuts, great ball movement, exciting fast breaks, that is what I like watching, I appreciate great defense, but if it means plodding through a bunch of 80-74 point games count me out.
Besides which, we almost won a championship without defense, so we know its possible.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
Huh?
we almost won a championship without defense
Really? We didn’t play any defense when we nearly beat the Lakers? What was Doug Christy doing on Kobe? I don’t know why so many people think we were nothing but offense in the wonder years. Yes we scored well, but compare those years stats to now, and you will see that we were not just the Suns under another name.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
Doug Christy = defense ?
We won with superior offense and average defense. My point is that we don’t need a defensive guru to right this ship.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
Doug Christy=Defense
Dude was amazing. All defensive team like every year. Now I am not saying that made us a great defensive team, but I am saying that while our offense was superior, we were above average defensively when looked at as a whole. We did not let teams score forty points in a quarter the way we do now. We had toughness. I am not looking for a slow down grind it out offense. But I am looking for a coack that says, “You go here on this play. You block the lane. You rotate.” And if they don’t do it, they get benched.
Do you really think after watching us get blown out by weak team after weak team that our problem is a lack of scoring? GP has drafted a team that can score the ball. We are 11th in scoring—above Boston, Cleveland, Portland, and Houston, among others. The only team giving up more points per game than the Kings is Golden State. You tell me. What is our main problem?
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
No suprise that I agree with Beast
you have to be able to get stops – no matter how much you score.
I’d rather give up 3s than watch the constant open lanes to our basket.
Well, I don’t want either – but the availabilty for almost anyone to drive to our rim is literally making me go nuts. At least on the perimeter they actually have to make a shot.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Unfortunately
we’re not even close to being average defensively.
Something’s gotta give with regard to our team defense, whether it’s a better scheme, better personnel, or a combination of the two.
We really don't have the personnel to be a great defensive team
all we can really do is try to bring in guys who can disguise our other players’ defensive liabilities….
by thashyt on Apr 9, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
‘01-’02 based on points per 100 possessions we were 3rd on Offense and 6th on defense.
Using points per 100 possessions is the way to go because you can play fast and play good D, just like you can play slow and have a good O.
We also led the league in differential(points scored – points allowed) with a +7.6 that season(can’t sort by diff, but it’s the green/red numbers). [Redacted] were 2nd at +7.1.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 9, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
That's why I asked...
…because 04-05 seemed to be his only decent year there- 45 wins, made it to 2nd round of playoffs. Other than that they were basically right at .500 the other seasons (except for the one bad year) and got bounced in the 1st round of the playoffs each year. Did those .500 ish teams overachieve because of injuries, etc.? Like i said, his record doesn’t seem stellar and I don’t follow the Wiz, so I thought I might be missing something.
Please consider the environment before reading this signature.
FLIP!! with a little Avery on the side
Flip is the man! with Avery as a hopeful assistant. Flip has the name and record to command a little more respect. he can relate to the players better. He will be productive on the offensive side, which even though we need D… when young guys are doing it on offfense they just have a better overall mentality about them. Face it, our players like playing O a lot more than playing D. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, that’s what we’re stuck with. Like i said Avery as assistant would be a longshot, but he would provide great insight on D. it would be a great combo….
Whoops
I accidentally posted that before authoring an actual post. I didn’t/wouldn’t choose Wright. Not after the Theus fiasco and not with guys like Saunders, Jordan and Van Gundy on the market.
However Wright and John Thompson, Jr. are the two college coaches that interest me most as potential pros. I am aware there’s a history of famous flame outs. But remember Stan Van Gundy, Larry Brown and even Popovich were collegiate coaches, with varying degrees of success. I just wouldn’t be shocked if either Thompson or Wright were hired for the next level and found some modicum of success.
No defense=No playoffs.
There has to be a better emphasis on defense.
Why not go the Tom Thibodeau+ Pete Carrill route over John Whisenant + Pete Carrill.
BOOK IT!
by kingme18 on Apr 9, 2009 12:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I can’t believe all these people voting Eddie Jordan. Even with a team with little/no offensive identity and no one to efficiently distribute the ball, we are scoring at a very decent rate.
EJ’s teams are always horrible defensively, but very good offensively. Since our offense is not the biggest problem, why would you hire an offensive-minded coach? Keep in mind his teams played horrible defense with much more athletic and talented teams than we have currently. He is better than another season of Natt, but he is NOT a better option than many of the other coaches that will be available.
I would even take a risk on a guy like Tom Thibodeau with no head coaching experience and wait on his learning curve or risk his failure rather than see EJ be our coach. I could care less about pretty offensive basketball that will only get us first round exits in the playoffs.
it's counterintuitive, but offense might be our problem...
…A couple points that I’ll try to weave together like I’m Whis teaching the Monarchs the fast break:
(1) Bill Parcells: “You are what you are.”
(2) Our offense is very good, but if we cut down on turnovers and played with more purpose, our offense might be excellent.
(3) If we cut down on turnovers, it would help defensively.
(4) If we ran our offense more fluidly, our players (who are offensively skilled players) would be less frustrated, more engaged, and have more energy on defense.
(5) Our defense will improve organically as JT and Hawes gain experience, and as Beno gets replaced by someone who can stop penetration.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
by Holmdel on Apr 9, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Flip
The EJ/GP/Coachie connection notwithstanding, Saunders is the guy that would have me the most excited about watching this team next year.
Is he the guy that gets us a championship? I don’t know. But I think that he could certainly get us pointed in the right direction.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
EJ/GP/Coachie
I know the EJ/GP connection and I know the GP/Coachie connection. Is there a direct EJ/Coachie connection?
I don’t think EJ went to Princeton and I don’t think Coachie was on staff when EJ was coaching. Where does EJ’s Princeton training come from? I don’t remember the Kings running it pre-Carrill. Come to think of it, I thought of Washington as more of a run-and-gun team than a well-oiled offensive machine. How did EJ become the presumptive heir to the Princeton throne?
But
Why have the student be the head coach when you already have the master on the bench?
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Apr 10, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
thashyt you need to check your history. The highest seed EJ ever coached the Wizards was 5th place in the Eastern Conference which was with their “Big Three” healhy.
by SacKings4Life on Apr 9, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Because ..
… he’d also get more votes than Budenholzer? Or because Natt has become the de facto ha-ha K-9 candidate?
Do we really think Avery has the patience
or the resume to deal with a Very young team?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
no!
Nor does Saunders (again Just a gut feeling but I think flip ends up in Washington). Although Avery would probably be more willing.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Apr 9, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
There are only 3 people on the list I certainly don't want
and Avery is one of them.
The ultimate victory in competition is derived from the inner satisfaction of knowing that you have done your best and that you have gotten the most out of what you had to give…Howard Cosell
A little from column "A" and a little from column "B"
Kenny Thomas is the chocolate syrup for each and every poll. He just makes it seem better.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Stinky voted for natt under all his screen names
what would he do with himself otherwise?
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I voted for Flip
because he’s the coach in the group of experienced NBA head coaches that I think has the best chance of taking the team the farthest.
But, I am very intrigued by the idea of giving Elston Turner a chance at head coach. Having been Adelman’s protege for many years he has a great pedigree as well as being a Princeton Offense kind of guy. He was defensively minded as a player so he would be an improvement on that side as well. It is unlikely the Maloofs would hire him but the question was who would I like to see hired and not who I thought would be hired (so there Nyah).
I chose Avery
He’s still looked upon highly (however short) and brings the know-how that’s needed for these young players. He’s also a motivator, which I think will be more huge than a coach that teaches the X’s and O’s well.
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Defense wins Championships
Let’s look at the 8 yr history of Rick Adelman. After following EJ’ (27-55) season, the Kings got knocked out of the playoffs 2 straight yr in the 1st round. The Kings also lost in the first round of the playoffs during Rick’s last 2 yrs. So, let’s look at the Golden Years 2000/2001 thru 2003/2004 when w lost in the semi-finals 3 times and the finals once.
During the Golden Years the Kings had a 6.5 ppg margin of victory. During those 4 Golden Years they averaged 107 pts per 100 possessions and gave up 100.5 pts per 100 possessions. During the 3 years since Adelman the Kings have average 106.5 pts per 100 possessions and have given up 110.8 pts per 100 possessions.
So, the Kings are scoring .5 pts less and giving up 10.3 more then they did during our very best years under Adelman. Years when we made it deep into the Playoffs. So, do we really need to score more or defend better?
Statistics aside, I totally enjoyed the 1st quarter of the Lakers game. Don’t know if the offense was the Princeton or not, but it was fun to watch. If it was the Princeton and Natt can run it, then any Defensive Minded Coach we hire should be able to do the same thing or better.
I would have picked Thibodeau but I chose JVG because he’s familiar with the same defense, and has a bigger name, so I think he might be able to draw a better coaching staff. Maybe more assistant with NBA experience than Thibodeau would have.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
I like it, but...
Although JVG has his criticisms, he’s always been defense first. His New York Knicks teams were always great in that respect. But the downfall is having players that are not physically imposing. Who is the bruiser on the Kings that JVG would unleash? Can he mold the players in that fashion, or would he be dependent on the draft and free agency? I think the latter. But then again, any coach will be dependent on the draft and free agency.
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You know that's a point I hadn't considered
I voted Flip/Avery but I wonder of a big name coach can get better asst coaches than a smaller name. It would seem to make sense, but I haven’t reserached it.
"Shut up and Coach!"
Vfettke
HighTops offensive stats are damn fishy...
…there’s no way the E-Muss/Reg/Artest/Salmons black hole pound the rock offense was only 0.5 pts per game less efficient than the Golden Years. I’d look into league-wide rule changes, I’d look at how much easier it is to score when the other team is already up by 20, I don’t know what I’d look at, but those numbers seem bogus.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
Basketball-reference.com
Check teams and Sac. All I did is add the 4 Adelman years and divide by 4. Add the Musselman, Theus, & Natt years and divide by 3.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Did the league change?
Year – Offensive Rating/Rank – Defensive Rating/Rank – +/-
00-01 – 105.6/9th – 99.6/7th – +6.0
01-02 – 109.0/3rd – 101.1/6th – +7.9
02-03 – 105.9/6th – 99.1/2nd – +6.8
03-04 – 110.3/2nd – 104.9/21st – +5.4
04-05 – 110.5/3rtd – 108.2/23rd – +2.3
05-06 – 106.7/11th – 105.0/11th – +1.7 – End Adelman
06-07 – 106.2/14th – 108.0/22nd – <1.8>
07-08 – 107.5/13th – 109.9/25th – <2.4>
08-09 – 105.8/25th – 114.6/30th – <8.8>
Strange that in 02-03 our offensive rating was 105.9 and ranked 6th(very good), but this year it is 105.8 and we rank 25th(terrible).
So yeah, the defense has turned to garbage and the offense hasn’t seemed to change much but when compared to the rest of the league it seems the offense has lost a lot of ground too.
All numbers taken from Basketball-reference.com just cycled thru the years(ratings and rankings are near the top.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 9, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
The game didn't change
The basket is still the same height and the court is still the same size. The number of teams has expanded. And, I think the overall quality of the players, going down to the end of the bench has decreased.
Offenses and Defenses havn’t changed that much in the 8 yrs since the Kings made it to the Western Conference Finals. And, the good Defensive teams still make it deep into the Playoffs. If anything, the last 8 yrs has brought 8 drafts of young players into the League. Young players out of HS or their 1st & 2nd yr of college. Players without defensive skilled but with Natural athleticism and offensive talent.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
But Stern implemented rules specifically to open up the games offensively and increase...
…scoring.
Like making it illegal to hand-check on the perimeter. This was the anti-Pistons rule. That likely had a direct impact on points per game.
That rule alone is credited for skewing the balance of power in favor of slashing guards like Kobe, D-Wade, Lebron.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
good call
stats below show your point
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 9, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
What is this?
The number of teams has expanded
from 29 to 30.
Something has changed. Another example:
San Antonio:
01-02 offense: 106.6/6th – defense: 98.0/1st
08-09 offense: 108.4/14th – defense: 104.6/6th
So their offense has improved but they are now middle of the pack and their defense has gotten worse, but they are still among the leaders.
01-02 offense: #1 team – Bucks 108.8 – #29(worst) – Bulls 97.2
08-09 offense: #1 team -Blazers 113.8 – #30(worst) – Clips 102.7 – #29 -OKC 103.3
01-02 defense: #1 team – Spurs 98.0 – #29(worst) – Wiz 107.8
08-09 defense: #1 team – Celts 101.7 – #30(worst) – Sac 114.6 – #29 – Wiz 113.9
Sure seems that the best offenses have gotten better and the worst offenses have gotten much better and the best defenses have gotten worse and the worst defenses have gotten much worse.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 9, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
For all the reasons mentioned scoring is up slightly
My original numbers showed that the Kings were scoring at around the same rate as the Playoff years of Adelman. These new numbers suggest that we should be scoring slightly higher (maybe 2pt per 100 possession) to maintain the increase by the league. But, defensively, we are giving up 10.3 pt more not the expect 2pt per 100 possessions, that would be expected by the leagues overall increase.
In addition, my numbers are based on all 3 years following the Adelman era. If I used the actual 2008/2009 Kings numbers and adjusting for the overall league increase in scoring over the period, Scoring should be 2pt more than the 107 or 109 and its 105.8 or 3.2 Pt per 100 too low, but defense which was 100.5 should only be 2 more or 102.5 and it’s 114.8 or 12.3 pt per 100 worst than the Adelman era.
Either way you look at it the greatest variance between the Golden Era of the Kings 2000-2004 and now in our Defense. Yes, we could be scoring 3pt more but we need to give up 12 pts less. So, what do you think is going to win more games, or don’t you care about winning as long as the offense looks flashy. (editorial you, not directed to Kfan)
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Actually
using Offensive Rating, which is what we’ve been using the league average(scroll down to the Miscellaneous Statistics section, avg is at bottom of that chart. Links below) has gone up 5.3 on both offense and defense during that period. From 103.0 in 01-02 to 108.3 in 08-09.
So using your original numbers comparing the Adelman era to the Variety Pack era, I get:
Adelman – Offense 107.0 and defense 100.5 adjusted to 08-09 numbers by adding the league increase of 5.3 = Offense 112.3 and Defense 105.8.
Compared to the Variety Pack:
Offense 106.5 and Defense 110.8 we are 112.3 – 106.5 = 5.8 worse on offense and 110.8 – 105.8 = 5.0 worse on defense. Surprisingly, basically the same.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
That bothers me a bit
so I’m going to run the numbers again using the league averages for each period that you used to compare the two Kings “Eras”.
League averages for the Golden years: 103.0, 104.5, 103.6 and 102.9 = 103.5
League averages for the Variety pack years: 106.5, 107.5 and 108.3 = 107.4
Difference = 3.9. (#s come from here, click the “NBA” for the year you want and scroll down for ORtg/DRtg)
So using your original numbers comparing the Golden Years Era to the Variety Pack era, I get:
Golden Years – Offense 107.0 and defense 100.5 adjusted to Variety Pack Era numbers by adding the league increase of 3.9 = Offense 110.9 and Defense 104.4.
Compared to the Variety Pack:
Offense 106.5 and Defense 110.8 we are 110.9 – 106.5 = 4.4 worse on offense and 110.8 – 104.4 = 6.4 worse on defense.
2 points more worse on D than on O. I think this is a better number. Don’t think it proves or disproves your point. But I do think it shows that we are just worse on both sides of the ball. We need improvement on both sides of the ball.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Forgetting about number for a minute
Just from watching the game, which do you (and this time I do mean KFan) think the Kings could improve on the most. O or D
The numbers this year are representative of 2 different teams offensively . The Theus team , and the two Natt teams pretrade deadline & post deadline. The pre & post development of JT & Spencer as a duo.
But, defensively were still the same weak exterior defending team that we’ve been all year. The guards cant stop penetration and the wings cant defend the 3.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Both
Yes, the D sucks bad, but the O sucks too. And when we break down into the selfish, no pass, dribble and chuck up a bad shot or dribble into coverage and turn it over it hurts our D, because we give up easy buckets.
And conversely, when we aren’t stopping anything it makes it hard to get easy buckets, because we’re starting from our end line and not off a steal or a rebound, and that forces us to beat a set D and that hurts our O.
I do believe we show signs of a decent O at times, and we rarely show signs of defensive life. So, in that sense I guess I could say we’ve got farther to go on D, but I don’t think they’re separate issues.
I voted Thibodeau by the way. I think with Petrie and Coachie around we don’t really need a “Princeton” coach, just someone that is open to a moving passing style of offense. I don’t disagree with your points, but I think the issues with this team are bigger than “we need D”, which I know is not really what you were saying, but some are.
It’s been a good discussion. I’ve found looking at the numbers very enlightening, and the points made on both sides interesting. Thanks.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure you can use averages
By your numbers for the Kings to be of Golden Era caliber they would have to score 110.9 and only give up 104.4? There are only 3 teams in the west that are giving up 104 or more pts and none are in the playoffs.
Our Golden era totals were 107ppg while giving up 100.5. This year the Lakes are scoring 107ppg and giving up 99.7. The only division leader that is giving up more than 100ppg is Denver and their at 100.9.
So even if the league average scoring is going up, the great teams aren’t allowing any more points than the Kings did in their glory days. So, no matter how bad the average NBA teams is getting, the Kings need to reduce their points allowed back down to the level of the division leaders before they can return to the Golden Years.
So, the defense in reality needs to reduce the points given up by 14 per game which is even more than the DRtg numbers which are based on 100 possessions (not some statistical average).
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Nope
You’re mixing points per game and ORtg(points per 100 possesions)
The Lakers ORtg for this season is: 112.6, DRtg is: 104.6
Now I didn’t check your original numbers, but you said:
During those 4 Golden Years they averaged 107 pts per 100 possessions and gave up 100.5 pts per 100 possessions.
points per 100 possessions is ORtg/DRtg.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
look under the Miscellaneous Statistics
here under ORtg and DRtg
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Best team in the league this season
defensively is Boston/Orlando tied at 101.7.
Ball movement ... is like jogging for most people: They do it occasionally, and it makes them happy. Then they go back to not doing it. - Henry Abbott
by Kfan in Korea on Apr 10, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
JVG
Sat under some great coaches as well, Riley,Nelson and a few others. He knows a lot of guys around the league, and has the “name” that would help in hiring a competent staff. If JVG were still coaching TT would be on his staff (maybe not after this year because TT will be a head coach somewhere next season). We already have a couple decent assistant/advisor guys (im thinking SAR and Coachie) SAR has really helped the young big guys play good ball. And Coachie is an offensive genius. To me these are good building blocks.
But what you need for a team to be truly succesful is both a good offense and a good defense (at least a D that does not move out of the way of the other man… and an offense with some flow ie low turnovers, and decent assist numbers). And the ability to bring up the young-guys in your respective system ala the Spurs and to some degree Portland.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Apr 9, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
HT - don't we need a defensive minded Player or two
to repair our near hopeless defense? I mean a coach can do quite a bit, but someone has to set the example out on the floor (IMO)
And no – this isn’t another Thabeet lobby. Whatever we do I think we need at least one guy – whoever it is – to set the tone.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I would agree
with this statement as well.
However Martin has played Decent D. JT plays Decent D. Hawes could be a good help-defender. Donte could be a good help defender as well. McCants has the speed to stay in front of his man and the awareness to get after it on the defensive side of the ball (im thinking of Delonte West). Cisco is a decent defender. We add a defensive minded Big, (or two) this summer and draft players who care about BOTH sides of the ball and bring in a coach that has experience and is solid on BOTH sides of the ball… and we will not recognize this team.
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Apr 9, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm an Eastern conference guy
Born & raised in Chicago, and am slightly spoiled by the Bulls championships. They didn’t have any great defensive standout among their bigs. Good rebounders yes but not great shoot blockers. The Bulls won by “letting the dogs out”, or that’s what it was called when I was there. The Bulls would stay close with Jordan scoring, his guards getting open 3’s, and the bigs doing what they could on the boards. But, there would come a point when Jordan, Pippen and the other guard would step up their defense. They’d hound the ball carrier, breaking up the rythmn of their offense, create steals, or turnovers from bad passes. They’d do this for 5-9min in the 4th quarter, just enough to get a lead or extend the lead they had.
That was “letting out the dogs”, and it didn’t take muscle, it took intelligence, stamina, and quickness. There’s no reason why the Kings couldn’t learn to play defense. But, if your not going to even consider a Defensive MInded coach, then when they don’t play defense you can continue to blame the fact that we just don’t have the right personel. ( By you, I don’t mean you personally LTTG)
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
How...
How are they going to “let the dogs out” if they don’t know how to play to play defense? I’m not even thinking muscle anymore, which I still believe is important. But these guys aren’t switching well through screens, help is always late and they’re not stopping the ball at the 3-point line. I mean, pretty basic stuff. Any new coach can come in and do wonders to correct the errors. Any number of the ones listed in the poll. But you gotta have “dogs” in that line up to really get this team going. Who is that, or will that person be?
Read me: http://www.addisports.com
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If you've read any of my posts you'd know I advocate a coach who teaches defense
My example of the bulls, was to show that pressuring the ball by the backcourt can be just as effective a defensive strategy as having a shot blocker. We have the quickness and athleticism in our guards and wings to pressure the ball and JT & Spencer are getting better each game at help defense.
Martin on a health ankle has the speed and quickness needed. There are numerous PG in the up coming draft that can defend well (Holiday may be the best). Cisco without a broken hand is more than capable of great defense especially back side. Noc is a hard nose defender though maybe a bit slow for fome of the quicker SF’s.
Your analysis of the current defensive scheme is accurate. But, I believe it is by the coaches design in an effort to simplify things and not do to the inability of the current roster. Your also correct that any coach should be able to correct those defecencies in the preseason. That doesn’t mean that a defensive minded coach (something we’ve never had) wouldn’t have the greatest impact on our team. Especially, considering that the majority of the young players never played enough in college to learn basic defensive skills and certainly no NBA style team defense.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
No thats fine
I want some freakin’ defense and I don’t care how we achieve it.
All these coaches posts i try to make the disclaimer that I don’t know much about a lot of these guys. I’m not for Avery because I saw him as impatient and watched him lose a very good team’s respect. There are a few others I think the game has left behind.
But all the decent defensive teams i can think of had one or two guys who set the tone defensively when it mattered. Those Bulls teams had MJ and Pippen on both ends and Rodman and thier Centers were also not usually scorers but defenders and rebounders.
I think you need a guy or two to set the example – especially on a team like ours where none of the current roster is an instinctive defender.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Instinctive defender
I know in football, there are d-backs that have the speed to stay with about anyone and can defend. But, the NBA is a team game and requires a team defense and mentality. With picks and screens, I don’t know of anyone who’s physical skills are that much better than the next guy that he can defend on his own instinctively, not Jordan, Lebron, or anyone else.
Whether it was from a high school or college coach or someone you played against, every good defender learned to do it from someone. BasketBall IQ isn’t hereditary, some one has to teach it to you. The great ones practice what their taught and ingrain it into their game.
If you think that the current roster can’t learn to play team defense, your wrong. How well they learn, will depend on who’s teaching them and how badly they want to learn.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
by HighTops on Apr 10, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bingo HT
One of your most astute statements (which is saying something).
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Exactly!
If you think that the current roster can’t learn to play team defense, your wrong. How well they learn, will depend on who’s teaching them and how badly they want to learn.
Which is a pretty good reason to not hire Eddie Jordan. He can’t teach what he doesn’t know.
Coming to you live from the land of interim coaches.
by LeaguePassAddict on Apr 10, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Since I don't feel like defending this I'm going to throw it out there and leave it be
Michael Jordan didn’t start out being great defensively. He worked at it. The Bulls weren’t good defensively when he was a young player. They had to work at it. Jordan’s main force was the most unstoppable scoring guard (by far) in history. It wasn’t on the defensive end. The Bulls got better when they got better defenders than Jordan (Pippen & Grant), and then stressed team defense to compensate for not having shot blockers. It happened in stages, and not all at once.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
anyone see this?
Wojnarowski says the Kings are already courting EJ
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
Next poll should be...
Who the Kings should draft. I’m new here, but I’m all for a Blake Griffin petition. Who’s with me?
Read me: http://www.addisports.com
Follow me: http://twitter.com/addisports
I think there's two or three posts running on the subject
a lot of R Rubio love around here as well.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect
and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 9, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm on the Flip bandwagon
Dubbed the “Guru of Offense,” has championships under his belt and LOTS of experience. Nuff said.
Flip has championships under his belt?
That’s news to me.
There now I've met the 75 word count. -pookeyguru
I voted for flip but...
I like flip a whole lot for our coaching gig but i dont think he has any championships… maybe cloudyeyes meant division titles?
what I heard was that under his belt he had...
…women’s panties.
Not championships.
But ’Sheed talks a lotta shit.
Life is every mammal's journey from very very wet to very very dry.
my bad
Thought he was head coach during the Pistons’ 2004 run. Still, though…lots of Eastern Conference Championships. That’s still a whole lot of experience. If the Kings want to build a team that can compete in the playoffs, they need a coach with winning experience in the playoffs.
You want the guy who gave him those scars
Line from the “Magnificent 7”. Trying to find fighterx, the untrained farmer points to a man with scars on his face and says, “he looks like he’s been in a lot of fights”. But, the other farmers being smarters says, " we want the fighter that gave him those scares".
So, do you want the guy who got to a lot of playoff games and lost? Or, do you want the guy who, beat him in those playoff games?
To me, having been a ex-NBA coach but now are available just means that you were fired because you didn’t achieve your goal. How far you took a team of totally different players is no indication of what you’ll do with this team. I’ll pick my guy based on how he handles people now, how he manages games now, how well he can impart his system on young developing players now, and not what he did before he got fired from his last job. People change and I want someone who has changed for the better.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Well
The guys that gave Flip those scars aren’t available, since they’re currently coaching. Bring me the guy that gave any guy with extensive playoff experience a bad scar. Hell, bring me Phil Jackson, cause he gave Adelman a big scar. The point I’m trying to make is that those guys you’re mentioning aren’t available. The current state of coaching FAs are a handfull of battle-hardened coaches with lots of scars and a bucket full of new recruits. Adelman has an extensive career in the playoffs without a championship, but he wasn’t that bad of a pick for the Rockets, right?
Which do you prefer? The guy with experience, or the new guy?
Which do you prefer? The guy with experience, or the new guy?
Either one as long as he has the ability to teach and grow with our young core.
My only purpose of the story, was to point out the the primary reason for hiring a head coach shouldn’t be because he’s done it before. Especially, if he’s done it before and failed. Three years as a head coach isn’t any more valueable on a resume than 15 yrs as a lead assistant, assistant, college coach. OH, and being a defensive specialist would look good on a resume too.
"If you don't have anything good to say, LIE" - Mom
Flip's championships were in the CBA
two CBA championships (1990, 1992), two CBA Coach of the Year honors (1989, 1992)
One more stat
During his CBA stint he had 23 CBA-to-NBA player promotions which indicates that he is good at developing players, another priority of ours.
I chose Budenholzer myself
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Whiz has 5 votes...
Nice to know that Gavin, Joe, Colleen, Whisenant and some other random retard have been using the website.
"It's shyte being Scottish. We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fuckin' Earth. The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic, trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by Wankers -- Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by . . . It's a shyte state of affairs to be in...and all the fresh air in the world won't make any fuckin' difference!"
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